Debates...they can be healthy.

[Wade_VC]

As some have seen, there is another topic where myself and Dreakon are going back & forth. We don't agree with each other, and our posts prove such.

Some see it as an argument, but, anyone who doesn't know the difference between a healthy debate and an argument needs to check their "drama" meter. Me and Dreakon have had many of these such debates, but the difference is we know we can "sling mud" at each other and not go off an a rampage and want to smash our computers to smithereens or ignore each other on other posts. Hell, we have gamed together a few times, and regardless of our strong opinions, we never let anything said on an internet forum get us all pissy at each other outside of the current debate/disagreement.

Example-

D- Well, that idea is stupid as hell

W- You better stand in front of a mirror when you use the word stupid, dumbass

D- You know what you arrogant bastard, you can kiss my ass.

W- You call me arrogant, holy shit, do you even know the meaning of the word?

D- Meaning of the word? Here is a word for you: Fuck off!

W- Awww.....did I hurt your little feelings? Let me get a barf bag because I am so tore up about it.

W or D- Hey, when we gonna' hook up to play something?

W or D- Dunno', let's figure something out before too long though.

Although the above is an extreme example, the point I am trying to make is that there are certain folks I know where I (as does Dreakon), can basically go on a pitbull type attack and NOT let the feelings, differences of opinions or name-calling be taken to heart. Yes, we may be passionate about our thoughts or opinions and get snarky or at times brutal, but we also do not nor have not ever let debates such as this act as a catalyst for hard feelings.

Debates such as the one ongoing and others we have had elsewhere, I think, has actually helped Dreakon and I become good forum/gaming buds and have garnered the respect of each other. One does not have to agree with each other to respect their presence on a forum or in general.

Debates are the one thing that, if either done properly or if you know your audience can be beneficial in many ways. However, if one is thin-skinned, or can't not "build a bridge and get over it" when things get heated, maybe it is best to be a bystander. There are many out there who, if they got into it even half of what Dreakon and I have, would have a stroke because they can not separate a debate from and argument or a true personal attack.

Debates, even heated ones....if one knows how to handle them, can and will actually strengthen the camaraderie of a community.

[Dreakon139]

Man, debates are a wonderful thing right?

Some of the best conversations (and that includes the recent ones we've had) I've had on forums were getting into the brunt of an intelligent, passionate debate. It doesn't have to be about politics or religion or racism or hot button issues... it can be about something as simple as Trophy Tips. People disagree about things, it's normal! Conversations can be heated and yeah... you may even "sling mud" from time to time, but it's all good.

My problem is I start getting a bit too confident sometimes and don't always think before I speak. Flying off the handle and whatnot. I love a good debate, but there are times where I come out of it with a list of things I probably shouldn't have said. I have oodles of respect for you though Wade, we can game anytime.

[AlteredFormula]

I say you're both talking shit.

...But Really, I agree with what you're saying Wade, Its better to have an opposite opinion than 20 sheep that say "I agree" so long as it doesnt get personal, I can see this beeing a place where such discussions can flourish.

And Dreakon, There is a lot I see you post that I may not agree with, but at least you have an opinion of your own, not one you copy and paste.

[eburkulosis]

As the great Alfred Formula.....errr...Altered Formula (Ive been playing too much Batman) always says "The internet is SERIOUS business!" This always helps keep things in perspective. Have you been to the chatbox and met our community friend GTAMichael? lol...If you want someone to have a heated debate with you (and maybe some mild trolling) check out the chatbox sometime

[Muff]

yea i agree....i try to avoid the debates that are as extreme as the one demo'ed, cuz i get kooky, but i think too many people on this site are getting turned off by out "arguements"..which are really just debates. People do it all the times...and im not sure bout others, but i find debating with friends to be very fun, you get to work on your persuasion/pro-con evaluating skills, and sometimes you find out stuff you didnt know about things...that are significant enough to change your opinion.

its all in good fun, basically, thanks for pointing it out to people, think it was needed now moreso, seems we are getting debate........y these days

[Wade_VC]

{snip}so long as it doesnt get personal, I can see this beeing a place where such discussions can flourish.

I think the "so long as it doesn't get personal" aspect is something a lot of folks need to learn. A lot of that, I think, is based on maturity and their own personalities.

Maybe it is because I am a dinosaur, or I used to be a prison guard, or that I actually live in the real world, but I honestly do not see or can even fathom why people would take anything said on the net so damn serious and personal, especially as how the majority of discussions are about or revolve around gaming.

(Now there are some subjects that can be very personal, and I usually avoid those as I have the ability to piss folks off for the next 3 generations....but that is another subject altogether.)

Now, this is just my opinion, but in order for people to be effective in a good debate (especially heated ones), these are aspects that are important:

1. If one has a issue with differentiating between a true argument or a debate, that is usually a good clue that maybe they should not partake in such.

2. If you are thin-skinned and take offense easily, that is a definite sign to stay away from such heated debates.

3. If you are pissed off after you leave a website, and fume over it all day, that too is a definite sign you are taking things too personal.

4. Know your audience or whom you are debating. This is very important! As in the case with me and Dreakon, and a few others here, I know I can say damn near anything and not have to be too concerned with it. When there are others I don't know as well, I will usually/sometimes scale back and approach my answers/responses a little differently.

5. Never think you "know" a person when you do not. Do not assume you know someone well enough to put words in their mouths. I for one will rip someone a new ass if they try it as that is nothing more than a ignorant person flapping their gums with no merit.

6. Nobody needs another person to come to their defense. Never answer for another person, especially if things are getting heated. You may add you opinion, naturally, but never answer for another person.

7. If you choose to battle, don't be a whiny bitch. Now, that may sound harsh, but all too often people will jump in to a heated debate, and then cry like a 10-year old school girl when (surprise) shit explodes in their face. Many will cry to a Moderator or Admin and tell them how "offended" they are by what was said (refer to #2 & #3). As the saying goes: "If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the fire".

Debates, especially heated ones can be a great mind exercise, and if done properly, one can approach it as a tactical quest. Can you get your point across and "one up" the last person in an intelligent and meaningful way?

All-in-all, remember that a debate is usually opposing opinions that end up clashing. Not all debates need to, nor should, become heated. Sometimes they do. But one has to remember that many of those involved are simply defending or supporting what they think is right, wrong or indifferent.

[Muff]

I think the "so long as it doesn't get personal" aspect is something a lot of folks need to learn. A lot of that, I think, is based on maturity and their own personalities.

Maybe it is because I am a dinosaur, or I used to be a prison guard, or that I actually live in the real world, but I honestly do not see or can even fathom why people would take anything said on the net so damn serious and personal, especially as how the majority of discussions are about or revolve around gaming.

(Now there are some subjects that can be very personal, and I usually avoid those as I have the ability to piss folks off for the next 3 generations....but that is another subject altogether.)

Now, this is just my opinion, but in order for people to be effective in a good debate (especially heated ones), these are aspects that are important:

1. If one has a issue with differentiating between a true argument or a debate, that is usually a good clue that maybe they should not partake in such.

2. If you are thin-skinned and take offense easily, that is a definite sign to stay away from such heated debates.

3. If you are pissed off after you leave a website, and fume over it all day, that too is a definite sign you are taking things too personal.

4. Know your audience or whom you are debating. This is very important! As in the case with me and Dreakon, and a few others here, I know I can say damn near anything and not have to be too concerned with it. When there are others I don't know as well, I will usually/sometimes scale back and approach my answers/responses a little differently.

5. Never think you "know" a person when you do not. Do not assume you know someone well enough to put words in their mouths. I for one will rip someone a new ass if they try it as that is nothing more than a ignorant person flapping their gums with no merit.

6. Nobody needs another person to come to their defense. Never answer for another person, especially if things are getting heated. You may add you opinion, naturally, but never answer for another person.

7. If you choose to battle, don't be a whiny bitch. Now, that may sound harsh, but all too often people will jump in to a heated debate, and then cry like a 10-year old school girl when (surprise) shit explodes in their face. Many will cry to a Moderator or Admin and tell them how "offended" they are by what was said (refer to #2 & #3). As the saying goes: "If you can't handle the heat, stay out of the fire".

Debates, especially heated ones can be a great mind exercise, and if done properly, one can approach it as a tactical quest. Can you get your point across and "one up" the last person in an intelligent and meaningful way?

All-in-all, remember that a debate is usually opposing opinions that end up clashing. Not all debates need to, nor should, become heated. Sometimes they do. But one has to remember that many of those involved are simply defending or supporting what they think is right, wrong or indifferent.

lol, post those in another thread titled "PSNP Rules of Debating" hahahaha....but i totally agree and try to follow most of these....and like 6 i must say: i mean, sometimes i will get involved if it looks like one person is being very unreasonable or one isnt intending to debate, or if what is said somehow (i say "somehow" cuz usually i will just get the urge to say my fill, cant say why) able to irk me, i will involve myself...but if i were to totally just take over for another person when they were fine, thatd be wrong...if they did it to me, id be downright pissed. nice job man

[Gotakibono]

I'm all for a debate, but if you're clearly wrong then I'll have no problem in pointing that out and exploiting it.

[iraqoz]

That is a really good thread

I definitely agree that debate or discussion is very healthy if you participate to "debate" and not "act (In other word you already made your mind)"

Thou I finding the example provided in the OP a little TOO extreme. I wont say that this is a healthy debate its actually personal offense if you calling a person you dont know for "bastard you can kiss my ass", thou among friends its not a problem.

What really worrying me that people take it PERSONALLY if you disagree with them why is that ?? we have different opinions. We can be friend but that doesnt mean I need to agree with you in everything you say.

I have always been straight forward like "walking on eggshells" even if I never use degrading terms you will never please all people anyway lol.

Another thing is people should start to use "Iam sorry" a little more that also healthy for debating

[Dreakon139]

Another thing is people should start to use "Iam sorry" a little more that also healthy for debating

What if I'm not sorry?

[Wade_VC]

Another thing is people should start to use "Iam sorry" a little more that also healthy for debating

IMHO, the phrase "I'm sorry" before saying anything is just pandering to the oversensitive types out there. If a person believes in their convicitons, and are speaking honestly and how they feel, there is absolutely no need to say "I'm sorry".

If I am wrong about something, I will say so...but there is no way I will say "I'm sorry" just so the hypersensitve types don't get their precious lillte feelings hurt.

If one needs to hear "I'm sorry" from people, they may want to refer back to #2 & #7.

[iraqoz]

What if I'm not sorry?

looool then dont say it

IMHO, the phrase "I'm sorry" before saying anything is just pandering to the oversensitive types out there. If a person believes in their convicitons, and are speaking honestly and how they feel, there is absolutely no need to say "I'm sorry".

If I am wrong about something, I will say so...but there is no way I will say "I'm sorry" just so the hypersensitve types don't get their precious lillte feelings hurt.

If one needs to hear "I'm sorry" from people, they may want to refer back to #2 & #7.

This has nothing to do with being oversensitive. on the contrary this shows your manhood and maturity, ofcourse you will use it if you say something wrong or you regretting something you said. You can also say "Iam wrong" that is also fine, but it depend on the person IMO saying "Iam sorry I was wrong" will dramatically change the course of the discussion its not necessary but it will smoothing the atmosphere, thats why I said its healthy.

Take another example: teenagers will NEVER say "Iam sorry" in the other hand adult will use them even in normal conversation. There is nothing wrong in being humble sometimes its sign of maturity.

Oversensitive people will not use it. IMHO they rely on attacking the person or rely on offensive words because they are so pissed that its noway they say "Iam sorry" (not generalizing...some of them)

I was thinking..... There are many types of personalities, one of them people which are hypersensitive. Why are they hated ??? I mean if I can feel that not using "sorry" in a specific place will hurt them why not using it ?? (ofcourse not randomly)

[Wade_VC]

I was thinking..... There are many types of personalities, one of them people which are hypersensitive. Why are they hated ???

I personally wouldn't say I "hate" them, as to me, things such as hate, respect, etc., as it pertains to an individual person can not be truly or accurately assessed on an internet forum.

However, if you were to use the word "irritated", yes, Hypersensitive people irritate the hell out of me.

Why?

Look how our society has become.....their feelings hurt at the dumbest things, Political Correctness out of control because these people can not or do not want to hear the truth.

Example:

"Do these pants make me look fat?"

"Uh no, the fact that you weight 300pounds is what makes you "look" fat."

It is honest, factual and to the point, but people don't want to hear that truth.

Did it hurt your feelings?

Well, quit shoving double whoppers down your gullet and get off your ass and exercise rather than taking offense over the truth.

The Hypersensitive person would rather hear: "Why yes, those pants do make you look fat"

All personal responsibility for their being overweight has now shifted to something else other than their own actions.

Hypersensitive people can take the most innocent of conversations and twist it around and read so far into things as to take them 100% out of context.

Most Hypersensitive people have become so anal and uptight, they are afraid to laugh at a simple joke because it might "offend" someone. Racial jokes, religious jokes, gender jokes.....to the Hypersensitive people, these are Taboo. They consider these types of things "offensive".

Get over it. It is a joke, said as a joke and meant no more than a joke.

I laugh at jokes aimed at white people just the same as I do at any other race, and I am not "offended" or in any other way negatively affected in my personal life by a joke. But the Hypersensitive are not only offended, they would probably try and sue you in a court of law for telling such a joke.

Again, maybe it is a generation gap, but I would rather someone say something honestly and from the heart rather than like a gutless pansy. If that offends someone, they seriously need to get a backbone and act like a mature adult and get over it rather than like a 10 year-old school girl.

I would rather have a heated exchange with someone who is passionate about what they believe in than I would spend a second catering to the Hypersensitive and easily offended.

[Muff]

looool then dont say it

This has nothing to do with being oversensitive. on the contrary this shows your manhood and maturity, ofcourse you will use it if you say something wrong or you regretting something you said. You can also say "Iam wrong" that is also fine, but it depend on the person IMO saying "Iam sorry I was wrong" will dramatically change the course of the discussion its not necessary but it will smoothing the atmosphere, thats why I said its healthy.

Take another example: teenagers will NEVER say "Iam sorry" in the other hand adult will use them even in normal conversation. There is nothing wrong in being humble sometimes its sign of maturity.

Oversensitive people will not use it. IMHO they rely on attacking the person or rely on offensive words because they are so pissed that its noway they say "Iam sorry" (not generalizing...some of them)

I was thinking..... There are many types of personalities, one of them people which are hypersensitive. Why are they hated ??? I mean if I can feel that not using "sorry" in a specific place will hurt them why not using it ?? (ofcourse not randomly)

ill back wade on this...but first, im 17 and i apologize and admit im wrong when i am :/

anyways..basically, in a debate, you have two or more people "arguing" (for lack of a better word) over their differing opinions on a subject..lets say something like the Chicken or the Egg debate. Now...when you debate, to do so the BEST way, you have to do so based on your opinion, and usually an opinion that is well-informed on the subject.

this is why i disagree: to me, if i have to apologize to someone in a debate for reasons outside calling them an insult out of anger, saying something that i have little knowledge about, etc...i dont think saying sorry is needed. basically, to me that is kind of like "oh, im sorry i have a different opinion from yours and want to defend it." My opinion is my opinion, sure i can change it based on information people tell me, or maybe something new in the subject...but otherwise, my opinions will not change.

basically, i just feel that apologizing for debating, outside of blatant insults and just negative speech, if you apologize for defending your opinion, you should just either not say it, or you should really change your opinion. I have apologized before, but only because my opinion is one that i feel some may think is moreso insulting of them, or just saying what they think is wrong...ill apologize to show that i mean no harm. that is fine....but otherwise, its unneeded

Off-topic: debates in the debate thread, who'da thunk it lol

...oh, and i just read Wade's last post, and i agree with that in the aspect of people being too sensitive about things, and that is another thing. If someone thinks that rap is good, and i tell them that I think rock is much better, and give like 1-2 reasons.....i dont want to see them act like i am just trying to say their opinion is wrong...and i really get annoyed by the "haters gonna hate" thing when i say such things...its not hating, its debating. (this is a tip: if you say that while we debate, i WILL start to include insults, flat-out call you an idiot, and consider you un-educated)

[Wade_VC]

if you apologize for defending your opinion, you should just either not say it, or you should really change your opinion.

Agreed 100%.

...and i really get annoyed by the "haters gonna hate" thing when i say such things...its not hating, its debating. (this is a tip: if you say that while we debate, i WILL start to include insults, flat-out call you an idiot, and consider you un0educated)

..now see, I knew there was a reason I like ya' Code; just my type of people!

[iraqoz]

ill back wade on this...but first, im 17 and i apologize and admit im wrong when i am :/

anyways..basically, in a debate, you have two or more people "arguing" (for lack of a better word) over their differing opinions on a subject..lets say something like the Chicken or the Egg debate. Now...when you debate, to do so the BEST way, you have to do so based on your opinion, and usually an opinion that is well-informed on the subject.

this is why i disagree: to me, if i have to apologize to someone in a debate for reasons outside calling them an insult out of anger, saying something that i have little knowledge about, etc...i dont think saying sorry is needed. basically, to me that is kind of like "oh, im sorry i have a different opinion from yours and want to defend it." My opinion is my opinion, sure i can change it based on information people tell me, or maybe something new in the subject...but otherwise, my opinions will not change.

basically, i just feel that apologizing for debating, outside of blatant insults and just negative speech, if you apologize for defending your opinion, you should just either not say it, or you should really change your opinion. I have apologized before, but only because my opinion is one that i feel some may think is moreso insulting of them, or just saying what they think is wrong...ill apologize to show that i mean no harm. that is fine....but otherwise, its unneeded

Off-topic: debates in the debate thread, who'da thunk it lol

...oh, and i just read Wade's last post, and i agree with that in the aspect of people being too sensitive about things, and that is another thing. If someone thinks that rap is good, and i tell them that I think rock is much better, and give like 1-2 reasons.....i dont want to see them act like i am just trying to say their opinion is wrong...and i really get annoyed by the "haters gonna hate" thing when i say such things...its not hating, its debating. (this is a tip: if you say that while we debate, i WILL start to include insults, flat-out call you an idiot, and consider you un-educated)

I see what you mean. That also what Iam saying

You dont have to apologize for defending your opinion, ofcourse not who said that.

if you apologize for defending your opinion, you should just either not say it, or you should really change your opinion. I have apologized before

If you have convinced me that your point is more true than me, I will gladly say:

"Sorry I think you right" or "Iam wrong and you right that how it should be" or "You right Now I can see your point"

Many examples on how you express it. I'll personally will use the sentence with "sorry" not because Iam weak I just think this will make the debate's atmosphere less tense (if you can say that).

What I have observed in the fora I visit that people almost never use it when they debate, so the tension is always very high and just need a little provocation to be turned into flame.

I had a mini conversation with someone that compared the debate with a fight if you dont win you fail For me its not a fight its a healthy conversation and educational experience, its a win win situation no matter what.

basically, i just feel that apologizing for debating, outside of blatant insults and just negative speech, if you apologize for defending your opinion

Trust me this language is very frequent in the internet (atleast in the ps3trophies fora I visit). NO ONE apologizing, they either dont reply or a mode close the thread because of the flame it turn on.

Dont you think the example provided in the OP need apologizing atleast one of them ?? (Now they are good friends which is very good )

oh, and i just read Wade's last post, and i agree with that in the aspect of people being too sensitive about things, and that is another thing. If someone thinks that rap is good, and i tell them that I think rock is much better, and give like 1-2 reasons.....i dont want to see them act like i am just trying to say their opinion is wrong...and i really get annoyed by the "haters gonna hate" thing when i say such things...its not hating, its debating. (this is a tip: if you say that while we debate, i WILL start to include insults, flat-out call you an idiot, and consider you un-educated)

(I dont know if the sentences in the parentheses are refering to me, but just to make sure that I have NEVER insults anyone, maybe called someone idiot sometimes, but never any other offensive words. I'll never lower myself to this level. Just to let you know if you was refering to me or maybe its just for generalizing )

Definitely agree. Thou I wont include any insults to them, I either dont reply or just try to be serious and explain to them why this is wrong, you can call me naive but trust me I have turned alot of those people into good friends

[ScreechingOwl]

This all reminds me of a quote I read recently:

Being offended is a tax you pay so that you can laugh at jokes that offend other people. - Jerry Sadowitz, comedian.

[Muff]

I see what you mean. That also what Iam saying

You dont have to apologize for defending your opinion, ofcourse not who said that.

If you have convinced me that your point is more true than me, I will gladly say:

"Sorry I think you right" or "Iam wrong and you right that how it should be" or "You right Now I can see your point"

Many examples on how you express it. I'll personally will use the sentence with "sorry" not because Iam weak I just think this will make the debate's atmosphere less tense (if you can say that).

What I have observed in the fora I visit that people almost never use it when they debate, so the tension is always very high and just need a little provocation to be turned into flame.

(I dont know if the sentences in the parentheses are refering to me, but just to make sure that I have NEVER insults anyone, maybe called someone idiot sometimes, but never any other offensive words. I'll never lower myself to this level. Just to let you know if you was refering to me or maybe its just for generalizing )

yea, to be honest, think back on what made me feel the urge to post that, it was mainly that you just kind of generalized in the post. I think (even i dont fully understand why i do stuff, how bad is that? ) that it seemed just a little too much like "you need to use sorry in any debate", instead what of what i tried to say: its more situational, to prevent unwanted anger and keep everyone level-headed..or to admit that your opinion, in the end, may have turned out to be one that wasnt what you truly thought (no opinion is flat-out wrong, just mis-informed). But nice to see that you agree also .

...oh, and for the last part, that just geared towards anyone in general. on this site, i actualy think ive only ever heard the phrase said maybe...under 5 times. on other sites (mainly .com since if im not here, im causing chaos there ) its quite rampant...and it just seems like an easy out to a debate. to me, "Haters gunna hate"="im/my side is too good to be debated on", or "i know id lose"...just sayin

[Gotakibono]

Debating about debates...?