Extensions & adjustments to the flagging system, and an alteration to the rules

[madbuk]

Would it be possible, once some of the minor site issues caused by the site update a while back are fixed, to give the flagging system an overhaul? A couple of ideas:

• Remove the 5 trophy limit. It only serves to let smart hackers who only had a very small oversight get away. I was flagging someone earlier and it took me a while to find 5 trophies, whereas it was blatantly obvious at least 2 were cheated (if someone earns 75% of collectibles long before 25% of them, that is cheated. Why do I need 3 extra trophies to prove this??)
• Allow us to report multiple games at once - this will allow us to finally add to the rules that group accounts are not allowed. The excuse for allowing them beforehand was "well, we can't prove they're a group account", but we can prove that by looking at the trophy log. If someone earns Beat Zico on WipEout 2048, and then earns Beat Zico in WipEout HD 30 seconds later, that is clearly cheated, whether via hacks or via a group account. This idea would let the reporter flag WipEout HD and WipEout 2048 together and give a reason as to why.

 

• Remove SharePlay from the gaming sessions tab. It encourages cheating.

Because, let's face it. What are we allowed to report for at the moment? Using someone else's save file, and someone outright hacking trophies. Now, let's look at the first case.

Someone actually did the work and earned the platinum to provide you that save file to download. You then use their save file to get trophies you didn't earn.

How is this any different to what SharePlay accomplishes? Either make using save files allowed (which would be a stupid idea), or ban SharePlay. You simply can't allow one and not allow the other, that's showing double standards. It's also why group accounts should not be allowed.

Edited March 27, 2017 by madbuk

[Sir_Bee]

I think that group accounts are allowed because Sony allows them.  They aren't 'cheating'.

[madbuk]

Just now, Sir_Bee said:

I think that group accounts are allowed because Sony allows them.  They aren't 'cheating'.

Sony doesn't allow group accounts, the terms of service state never to give out your log-in details. And how would you manage to run a group account without doing that?

[Sir_Bee]

But Sony does allow you to put your account on at least one other system, and therefore gives access to at least one other person to your account.  On the PS3, they used to let you give access to 5.  I would say that would allow for group accounts.

[madbuk]

Just now, Sir_Bee said:

But Sony does allow you to put your account on at least one other system, and therefore gives access to at least one other person to your account.  On the PS3, they used to let you give access to 5.  I would say that would allow for group accounts.

The idea isn't to let others gain access to your account, it's for people who own multiple consoles themselves. It's why they had to eventually limit it to 2 systems, because people were abusing it for group accounts and/or gamesharing.

[Sir_Bee]

The intent, and the result don't always have to be the same thing.  You could follow all their rules, by adding the account to another system, and having it set to auto-login, as to never have told another soul what your login information is.  That may not be what they mean, but they still allow it.  As long as Sony allows it, I am not sure that Sly will want to ban it.

 

EDIT: I do like the rest of your suggestions though.  It seems like a stretch to me to need 5 trophies to report someone.  I can understand why, but it then becomes like the money laundering detection system.  If all your transactions are just under $10,000, the system would never catch you.  Gives the cheaters a bar to stay below to stay hidden.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Sir_Bee

[madbuk]

1 minute ago, Sir_Bee said:

The intent, and the result don't always have to be the same thing.  You could follow all their rules, by adding the account to another system, and having it set to auto-login, as to never have told another soul what your login information is.  That may not be what they mean, but they still allow it.  As long as Sony allows it, I am not sure that Sly will want to ban it.

Does Sony allow save file transfer? I read their ToS ages ago, but afaik nothing about it was mentioned so it can be assumed they do allow it.

Yet it's banned here.

Hmm...

[starcrunch061]

21 minutes ago, madbuk said:

Remove the 5 trophy limit. It only serves to let smart hackers who only had a very small oversight get away. I was flagging someone earlier and it took me a while to find 5 trophies, whereas it was blatantly obvious at least 2 were cheated (if someone earns 75% of collectibles long before 25% of them, that is cheated. Why do I need 3 extra trophies to prove this??)

 

I support this. There are lots of games that I know people hacked, but I can't report by site rules, because it's hard to find 5 separate trophies.

[Sir_Bee]

Ok, that is a fair point.  Look at it this way though.  A group account doesn't do anything against even the spirit of trophy hunting.  Every game still has a player who is collecting the trophies legit, they are just putting them all in one cabinet rather than spreading them over several.  A save transfer has one person collect the same trophy several times in the same event and spread it over many cabinets.  

[MMDE]

SharePlay is great for trophies with local co-op trophies.  I used it for both Resogun and N++.

 

I don't think there should be a 5 trophy limit, if at all wanted, maybe reduce it. 2 or even 3 would make much more sense.

Edited March 27, 2017 by MMDE

[madbuk]

9 minutes ago, MMDE said:

SharePlay is great for trophies with local co-op trophies.  I used it for both Resogun and N++.

 

I don't think there should be a 5 trophy limit, if at all wanted, maybe reduce it. 2 or even 3 would make much more sense.

SharePlay is useful for situations like those, yeah, but in comparison to the sheer amount of sessions where it's completely abused and used for trophies that are single-player only, the local co-op trophies are insignificant. Maybe restrict SharePlay sessions and have a team that monitors them? Or have a team that flags local co-op trophies and then only allow those to be selected when setting up a SharePlay session?

Edited March 27, 2017 by madbuk

[B1rvine]

I agree completely on the 5 trophy requirement.

 

On sharing accounts and share play I partially agree.  I think it should be discouraged and the site should remove "Shareplay" in things like boosting sessions, but not make it an offense reportable for.  There's husband/wife and other family accounts.  And in that case they could be a "valid team."

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by B1rvine

[MMDE]

4 minutes ago, madbuk said:

SharePlay is useful for situations like those, yeah, but in comparison to the sheer amount of sessions where it's completely abused and used for trophies that are single-player only, the local co-op trophies are insignificant. Maybe restrict SharePlay sessions and have a team that monitors them? Or have a team that flags local co-op trophies and then only allow those to be selected when setting up a SharePlay session?

 

As long as someone actually earns the trophies legit, regardless of it is the account's main player, it's considered okay.

[madbuk]

Just now, MMDE said:

 

As long as someone actually earns the trophies legit, regardless of it is the account's main player, it's considered okay.

But how do you know the person who provided the save file didn't do it legit? I'd imagine in most cases it was done legit...

[MMDE]

5 minutes ago, madbuk said:

But how do you know the person who provided the save file didn't do it legit? I'd imagine in most cases it was done legit...

 

We've talked about this before. If the effort that went into doing what is on the save file hasn't been used to pop any other trophies and was meant to be used for popping trophies on said account, I'd say it's okay TBH, but this is not normal. What is normal is that the same save file is spread around to pop multiple of the same trophies even if the achievement wasn't achieved multiple times (or at all). I know you think it's absolutely terrible and I'm a cheater because my wife did like 80-90% of an easy 100% on my profile, but I don't think other people find it to be an issue.

Edited March 27, 2017 by MMDE

[Stevieboy]

30 minutes ago, madbuk said:

Does Sony allow save file transfer? I read their ToS ages ago, but afaik nothing about it was mentioned so it can be assumed they do allow it.

Yet it's banned here.

Hmm...

 

Games don't allow you to just load up someones save file and play on it, it needs to be resigned. What's Sony's stance on tampering with and editing files?

[MMDE]

6 minutes ago, Stevieboy said:

 

Games don't allow you to just load up someones save file and play on it, it needs to be resigned. What's Sony's stance on tampering with and editing files?

 

This is false, at least in the case of PS3 saves, but not sure about PS4. You can upload PS3 saves just fine, and others can use them just fine. You can download others if you want too. How the game handles your foreign save is different from game to game. 99% of cases you can't pop trophies with it, unless it's modified for your account, but that is what people do. There's some exceptions though, but it's mostly very old games that didn't have trophy support in the first place. Basically, you can use someone else's save, patch the game, and the save gets patched too, to be your save, so you can pop trophies with it.  Though, I only know of one such game.

 

Point is anyway, people can share saves just fine, and there's no real problem with that. You can use them to play in your game and have fun, but trophies are disabled, of course unless you "hack" the save so your PS3 thinks it is yours.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by MMDE

[Stevieboy]

1 minute ago, MMDE said:

 

This is false, at least in the case of PS3 saves, but not sure about PS4. You can upload PS3 saves just fine, and others can use them just fine. You can download others if you want too. How the game handles your foreign save is different from game to game. 99% of cases you can't pop trophies with it, unless it's modified for your account, but that is what people do. There's some exceptions though, but it's mostly very old games that didn't have trophy support in the first place. Basically, you can use someone else's save, patch the game, and the save gets patched too, to be your save, so you can pop trophies with it.  Though, I only know of one such game.

 

Maybe I should have stated such, but I was meaning in regards to earning trophies and not only just being able to play the game.

[MesopithecusUK]

I agree with lowering the trophy limit for flagging purposes.

 

The team accounts are somewhat of a grey area, as I have unlocked trophies seconds apart on different consoles before - either by playing the Vita & PS3 simultaneously, or two PS3's simultaneously.  Would I be under scrutiny for that?  Would I have to prove trophies I earned 2 years ago were earned solely by me?  I feel adding in this kind of rule would just end up with a lot of false flags and a lot of frustrated people.  

 

I've said all I've got to say about Shareplay in other topics.

[madbuk]

Just now, Rach said:

I agree with lowering the trophy limit for flagging purposes.

 

The team accounts are somewhat of a grey area, as I have unlocked trophies seconds apart on different consoles before - either by playing the Vita & PS3 simultaneously, or two PS3's simultaneously.  Would I be under scrutiny for that?  Would I have to prove trophies I earned 2 years ago were earned solely by me?  I feel adding in this kind of rule would just end up with a lot of false flags and a lot of frustrated people.  

 

I've said all I've got to say about Shareplay in other topics.

Earning trophies on different consoles at the same time is fine if they're trophies that can be done like that, like Telltale games.

But in my example of Beat Zico, it requires your full attention if you want to even have a chance at earning one of them. To earn both within a 30 second gap is impossible, there simply aren't enough hands even if the skill was there. And that's just one of many scenarios, there are plenty of tough, engaging trophies out there.

[MMDE]

8 minutes ago, Rach said:

I agree with lowering the trophy limit for flagging purposes.

 

The team accounts are somewhat of a grey area, as I have unlocked trophies seconds apart on different consoles before - either by playing the Vita & PS3 simultaneously, or two PS3's simultaneously.  Would I be under scrutiny for that?  Would I have to prove trophies I earned 2 years ago were earned solely by me?  I feel adding in this kind of rule would just end up with a lot of false flags and a lot of frustrated people.  

 

I've said all I've got to say about Shareplay in other topics.

 

Reminds me about when I did some of the TellTaleGames games. Some of those games, like Game of Thrones, had already played it on PS4, so I just let it auto-play on PS3 while I did other stuff. Might have played on PS4 then. Was just a couple of button presses every few minutes or so.

6 minutes ago, madbuk said:

Earning trophies on different consoles at the same time is fine if they're trophies that can be done like that, like Telltale games.

But in my example of Beat Zico, it requires your full attention if you want to even have a chance at earning one of them. To earn both within a 30 second gap is impossible, there simply aren't enough hands even if the skill was there. And that's just one of many scenarios, there are plenty of tough, engaging trophies out there.

 

But if the trophy was achieved by someone for that trophy, and not someone's one achievement used to pop multiple of the same trophies among multiple of accounts, yeah, that's just fine IMO.

 

There's tons of family members who share the same PSN account, like if you had a little brother. You both may have been playing on the same PSN account. No problem IMO. Just like I don't find any issues with my wife having played a PSN game on my account.

Edited March 27, 2017 by MMDE

[damon8r351]

No. I disagree with all of this. 1. Erroneous flagging is going to increase exponentially if someone can only report one trophy out of an entire set. It's bad enough already. If there's only one trophy that looks fishy to you, and the rest of the account looks okay, maybe you're fucking wrong.   2. I'm not regulating whose ass is in the seat in front of the console earning the trophies, that's getting ridiculous.

[madbuk]

Just now, damon8r351 said:

No. I disagree with all of this. 1. Erroneous flagging is going to increase exponentially if someone can only report one trophy out of an entire set. It's bad enough already. If there's only one trophy that looks fishy to you, and the rest of the account looks okay, maybe you're fucking wrong.   2. I'm not regulating whose ass is in the seat in front of the console earning the trophies, that's getting ridiculous.

Yes damon8r, someone earning the trophy for beating the game before earning the trophy for beating the tutorial is clearly legit, silly me. I should have been more careful!

[SnowxSakura]

6 minutes ago, madbuk said:

Yes damon8r, someone earning the trophy for beating the game before earning the trophy for beating the tutorial is clearly legit, silly me. I should have been more careful!

Well yes and no, some games have optional tutorials with trophies, red alert 3 is a good example, you can beat it on hard before ever touching the tutorial.

[madbuk]

Just now, SnowxSakura said:

Well yes and no, some games have optional tutorials with trophies, red alert 3 is a good example, you can beat it on hard before ever touching the tutorial.

Yeah, but I was assuming most people would just assume I was talking about games with mandatory missions If people are going to report games they know nothing about, the 5 trophy limit isn't going to stop them anyway.