SITE RULES FOR FLAGGING/BANNING

[Griffon234]

5 minutes ago, weavsxx said:

That being said: I do think some people deserve a second chance with some games, indeed giving them an 'unfair advantage' over 'legitimate' players (cannot be based on anything thanks to time stamp manipulating) but only for games that are known to be prone to randomly popping trophies or online lobbies / glitching

 

The problem with this, is that it will give an excuse that will open the floodgates for hackers to abuse and testify when questioned in disputes.

 

Is the three game limit not a second, as well as a third chance? The list can still be hidden, and people's leaderboard rank can still be mostly restored, given they don't have two other games. 

 

I'm not sure there was a case of a single person having three or more games which they got their trophies screwed over by hacked lobbies out of their control.

[Se7en]

31 minutes ago, FOX said:

You are not putting forward arguments, just claims without substance. 

 

My argument, if it isn’t so obvious, is to have system in place that aims to avoid incriminating innocent players whenever it is possible. So that at least we don’t have to see false flags made and lifted on regular basis, as it is now.

 

31 minutes ago, FOX said:

It IS the best system for obvious reasons.

 

Nope, it is the easiest system. And you are right, the reasons are obvious: it may seem more acceptable to have small amount of falsely flagged players to deal with their flags and move on, than otherwise allow more than usual amount of wrong-doers to slip through the fingers to a precious leaderboards. Personally I cannot agree with that, nevertheless.

[- Deleted -]

21 minutes ago, Griffon234 said:

 

The problem with this, is that it will give an excuse that will open the floodgates for hackers to abuse and testify when questioned in disputes.

 

Is the three game limit not a second, as well as a third chance? The list can still be hidden, and people's leaderboard rank can still be mostly restored, given they don't have two other games. 

 

I'm not sure there was a case of a single person having three or more games which they got their trophies screwed over by hacked lobbies out of their control.

Well if you play cod enough all it takes is a random hacked lobby on WaW and Bo2 and that's already your last strike. They're all over the place btw. Harder to avoid than to get in.

Edited May 19, 2017 by ryankamal1998

[Stardroid]

7 minutes ago, Se7en said:

 

My argument, if it isn’t so obvious, is to have system in place that aims to avoid incriminating innocent players whenever it is possible. So that at least we don’t have to see false flags made and lifted on regular basis, as it is now.

 

 

Nope, it is the easiest system. And you are right, the reasons are obvious: it may seem more acceptable to have small amount of falsely flagged players to deal with their flags and move on, than otherwise allow more than usual amount of wrong-doers to slip through the fingers to a precious leaderboards. Personally I cannot agree with that, nevertheless.

Then you must show how you will aim to implement this system and to actually make it work. I have shown you why it would never work. False flags aren't lifted at a regular basis and even if they were, it's further proof that the current system is fair to a certain extend. 

It's not only the easiest system, it's also the system that has the most damage control. It IS more acceptable to have a small amount of falsely flagged people (with three strikes in mind) then to allow players to make up bullshit excuses that can never be disputed.

Edited May 19, 2017 by FOX

[weavsxx]

28 minutes ago, Griffon234 said:

 

The problem with this, is that it will give an excuse that will open the floodgates for hackers to abuse and testify when questioned in disputes.

 

Is the three game limit not a second, as well as a third chance? The list can still be hidden, and people's leaderboard rank can still be mostly restored, given they don't have two other games. 

 

I'm not sure there was a case of a single person having three or more games which they got their trophies screwed over by hacked lobbies out of their control.

Yeah I agree. Three times is enough. if you go over that limit, you fucked up

 

Not very sure if Black Ops II and those other games should actually be counted though in single cases

Edited May 19, 2017 by weavsxx

[Se7en]

12 minutes ago, FOX said:

It IS more acceptable to have a small amount of falsely flagged people (with three strikes in mind) then to allow players to make up bullshit excuses that can never be disputed.

 

So it is okay to ruin some falsely flagged players’ trophy lists (by enforcing them to hide questionable game) or remove them entirely from leaderboards if they don’t want to follow “hide and move on” advice, because some amount of undisputable “bullshit excuses” will be much more damaging to… whom? And in what way, exactly?

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Se7en

[Stardroid]

3 minutes ago, Se7en said:

 

So it is okay to ruin some falsely flagged players’ trophy lists (by enforcing them to hide questionable game) or remove them entirely from leaderboards if they don’t want to follow “hide and move on” advice, because some amount of undisputable bullshit excuses will be much more damaging to the people… in what way, exactly?

 In principle, it's not okay of course, but it is a price worth paying in the grander scheme of things. Because I can ask you the question if it's okay to let every cheater come up with excuses that can not be investigated and therefore allow them on the leaderboard. 
If you can't see that this small price is justified in order to make sure EVERY cheater has accessibility to pretty much being infallible, then I don't know what to say to you. Also, people are rarely falsely flagged. If timestamps are in fact messed up, then it's a rightful flag. Even if someone was the victim of a hacked lobby, you hide the game, you learn a lesson and you move on. Is that the right thing to do? Heck yes it is.

 

Also, this website does not treat one flag as a cheater. It treats it as a potential freak accident. If does not stigmatize. It's hardly destroying anyone.

Edited May 19, 2017 by FOX

[weavsxx]

50 minutes ago, ryankamal1998 said:

Well if you play cod enough all it takes is a random hacked lobby on WaW and Bo2 and that's already your last strike. They're all over the place btw. Harder to avoid than to get in.

Having two strikes is pretty bad to begin with, but I feel like there should be an exception list for some of these games. Imagine ruining your list thanks to this bs

Edited May 19, 2017 by weavsxx

[Nitro]

8 hours ago, NathanielJohn said:

Things that are not flaggable:

• Multiple people playing on the same account (i.e., trophy teams).

I don't like this at all :/

[- Deleted -]

47 minutes ago, weavsxx said:

Yeah I agree. Three times is enough. if you go over that limit, you fucked up

 

Not very sure if Black Ops II and those other games should actually be counted though in single cases

 

Theres is no third strike. It's 2 strikes and next one means you're completely off. It used to be 3 but now it's 2. Which is pretty stupid in all honesty. People were once told they'd be alright with their 3 flagged games, then this new rule comes in and they're automatically fucked over and need to make a new account to stay on the LB. If rules like this are going to be happen then it needs to be implemented from the very start imo.

6 minutes ago, Nitro said:

I don't like this at all :/

 

I also agree. Especially as the trophy log makes it very blatant when multiple users are earning trophies on one account.

[ZioFragolino]

Using a save file to auto-unlock trophies - If you use an external save file to auto-unlock trophies or advance you further into the game and the impossibility of normal circumstance can be proven via the timestamps, it's flaggable. This includes using your own save file to unlock trophies at an impossible time frame, be careful with this, always sync your trophies, and do not use your save file to earn trophies impossibly out of order. 

 

With PS PLUS is possible upload the saves and someone lost his save he can't load it for getting a YLOD or other things? not all of them update their profile at once, this rule can't be proven at 100% if this is your own or external save so i think there must be concrete prove to flagged for this reason and it isn't fair to even star a new game from the beginning because you could unlock some trophies. There are many people flagged for ONLY 2 or 3 trophies earned out of order for using your own save and this isn't correct for me. 

 

Another thing is unfair punishing a SINGLE game made in this way in the past (2009/10/11), a policy of forgiveness for only ONE old game. 

 

For me this rule is to revisit in some parts.

 

[KRATOS_31090]

9 hours ago, NathanielJohn said:

In response to BlindMango (sorry, forgot to quote), here is the list of things I can remember that the community seems to have decided upon.

 

Things that are flaggable here (please do not use the term "cheating" when describing these rules):

• Using someone else's save file.
• Using your own save file without syncing your trophies in order to earn trophies in an order that is not possible, or in rapid succession that is not possible, through normal gameplay. For example, you may not earn all trophies on PS3, avoid syncing trophies, and then load the save file on another PS3 in order to auto-pop trophies with close together timestamps.
• Any usage of custom firmware whatsoever.
• A hacker unlocking your trophies for you (even without your consent) in an online game. This is particularly common in Call of Duty games. If this happens to you, follow the instructions in <link to that other thread>.

Things that are not flaggable:

• Boosting trophies (i.e. playing online with other people in non-standard ways specifically to unlock trophies for each other).
• Having someone play games and unlock trophies for you via SharePlay.
• Multiple people playing on the same account (i.e., trophy teams).
• Auto-popping trophies in games that have a built-in function that permits this via an in-game cross-save function. Examples of games with such a function include Sound Shapes, Sly 4, Motorstorm RC, and Final Fantasy 14.
• Using turbo controllers/rubber bands/other physical modifications to make unlocking trophies easier.
• Using in-game glitches of any kind to unlock trophies.
• Backing up your save file and re-loading it in order to earn "choice" trophies (e.g., to quickly get trophies for 2 different endings in a game) or to make games easier (e.g., to save yourself in games with permadeath).

"Having someone play games and unlock trophies for you via SharePlay." How is that not flaggable? That is literally the same thing as me getting a game save off the Internet....someone else played for me. Like there's no difference between having someone play for me via SharePlay save the game and then me playing alittle more until the trophy pops vs. them playing until the same point in the game, saving, giving me that save, me loading it, then playing alittle more until the same trophy pops.

[- Deleted -]

4 minutes ago, KRATOS_31090 said:

"Having someone play games and unlock trophies for you via SharePlay." How is that not flaggable? That is literally the same thing as me getting a game save off the Internet....someone else played for me. Like there's no difference between having someone play for me via SharePlay save the game and then me playing alittle more until the trophy pops vs. them playing until the same point in the game, saving, giving me that save, me loading it, then playing alittle more until the same trophy pops.

 

Although I dislike the feature and think it should be ONLY for watching friends play games, I don't agree with it being flaggable since it's a feature Sony implemented. 

[ZioFragolino]

5 minutes ago, ryankamal1998 said:

 

Although I dislike the feature and think it should be ONLY for watching friends play games, I don't agree with it being flaggable since it's a feature Sony implemented. 

 

PS PLUS storage is another feature too, but there are two different meters of judgement and this is flaggable.

[weavsxx]

Account-sharing and gaining trophies on two different games at the same time should be flaggable

[xD4rK_By_D3s1gNx]

3 minutes ago, ZioFragolino said:

 

PS PLUS storage is another feature too, but there are two different meters of judgement and this is flaggable.

Correct.

But Using your own save is only flaggable when it is used to pop trophies in a way that makes the trophy list look illegitimate, and is therefor indistinguishable from a downloaded save.

Shareplay on the otherhand does not produce those same results.

 

[Se7en]

3 minutes ago, weavsxx said:

Account-sharing and gaining trophies on two different games at the same time should be flaggable

 

Would you care to explain why, please?

[- Deleted -]

8 minutes ago, ZioFragolino said:

 

PS PLUS storage is another feature too, but there are two different meters of judgement and this is flaggable.

 

True. A couple of my friends would be flagged since they use it. Problem is you'd never know if it's used or not. I said I disagree but now I think a bit more, it's just like account sharing. And I completely disagree with that being allowed on this site.

[weavsxx]

Just now, Se7en said:

 

Would you care to explain why, please?

Unfair advantages

Obviously makes the leaderboard artificial

it's common sense that 2 or more people can achieve more than one individual

[ZioFragolino]

3 minutes ago, xD4rK_By_D3s1gNx said:

Correct.

But Using your own save is only flaggable when it is used to pop trophies in a way that makes the trophy list look illegitimate, and is therefor indistinguishable from a downloaded save.

Shareplay on the otherhand does not produce those same results.

 

 

Yes, but this two things can't put on the same plan, this is the real problem. Same results with different methods.

[Xionx]

9 minutes ago, xD4rK_By_D3s1gNx said:

Correct.

But Using your own save is only flaggable when it is used to pop trophies in a way that makes the trophy list look illegitimate, and is therefor indistinguishable from a downloaded save.

Shareplay on the otherhand does not produce those same results.

 

^^^^ this .

Shareplay is pretty much same as inviting a friend to your home and let him play. Shareplay just increase the range . 

 

Either way , there is always the effort to earn the trophy. So the player has to spend the time and effort to earn X trophy.

With a savefile the effort and time was done once and multiple people pop the trophy.

 

Its hard for me to explain my point in english but :   Player A is playing 2h to earn a trophy with shareplay , player B has the trophy now but player A not.    With savefile player A is playing 2h for a trophy , and player A , B , C ........X  gets the trophy aswell.

 

1 minute ago, ZioFragolino said:

 

Yes, but this two things can't put on the same plan, this is the real problem. Same results with different methods.

Not same result like i explained.

Edited May 19, 2017 by Xionx

[- Deleted -]

9 minutes ago, weavsxx said:

Account-sharing and gaining trophies on two different games at the same time should be flaggable

 

There'd need to be leniency with that. It is entirely possible for one person to earn trophies on two games at the same time. Depends on what types of trophies they are and how close they are earnt together.

[xD4rK_By_D3s1gNx]

1 minute ago, ZioFragolino said:

 

Yes, but this two things can't put on the same plan, this is the real problem. Same results with different methods.

Sorry I don't understand what your trying to say here.

Just now, ryankamal1998 said:

 

There'd need to be leniency with that. It is entirely possible for one person to earn trophies on two games at the same time. Depends on what types of trophies they are and how close they are earnt together.

Exactly.

It's pretty easy to set up a trophy to pop on your PS4, PS3 and PS Vita all at the same time if you really wanted to.

[weavsxx]

3 minutes ago, ryankamal1998 said:

 

There'd need to be leniency with that. It is entirely possible for one person to earn trophies on two games at the same time. Depends on what types of trophies they are and how close they are earnt together.

It would be pretty easy to distinguish

This SHOULD be a thing imo

[MMDE]

3 hours ago, FOX said:

I knew I should have clarified because a comment like this would happen. The only reason why MMDE could do this was because the disputant was stupid enough to leave tracks (hacks and timestamps). The fake stories that I am talking about are obviously stories that we can not track. Also, purity of a leaderboard should be a given, not an obsession. 
So, if I decide to hack ten platinums and I claim it was never me, someone hacked my profile. How will you prove that I am lying? Through which tools will you do so? You won't, that's what you'll do and I'll just go freely. And it's only a matter of time before other cheaters adapt the same tactic of coming up with excuses that can not be proven against. What is so hard to understand about it? MMDE busting members is an exception, and also because their claims could actually be investigated. Not all claims can be, as a matter of fact, the majority of claims that come in can't be investigated. As I stated before, in order to make this system work, you'd have bo breach privacy. It's unfair to implement a system which automatically favours the cheaters as it's so easy to bypass.

 

Also, MMDE himself is in agreement with me that this system wouldn't work. So that's telling you something.

 

A glitched trophy can happen, but that is usually just that one trophy that should have popped didn't pop. I usually ignore this. Getting a trophy too early is a totally different case IMO, especially if you're the only one or other people who do it shows other signs of cheating, or it's something likely to be cheated because what it shows is that the user has got something very beneficial in the game. Maybe you can find a save that can explains it etc.

 

Play normal and synch the trophies when you earn them. Do this and you won't have any trouble. Again, of course don't synch hacked trophies.

 

I think this one was pretty awesome:

 

 

But here the person gave away the entire thing, and made me super suspicious because they fucked up.

 

He told us about the issues with his list before anyone even thought about it. He knew it looked super strange that he had played multiple games at the same time for months, but his excuse made no sense. Had his kids been playing games around the clock every day for months?  And he was mad that people had flagged him for what he thought was a legit time, because someone else had done it legit. This was because he took his old games and completed the rest of the trophies with the same offsets as someone else, giving him legit looking trophy lists. Also, he didn't share the completion time or date with someone else, because he only used the offsets, the dates he had earned trophies at himself and not the dates. I wouldn't have looked hadn't it been for that he completed one game every day, and one of those days the year was exactly one year off. 

 

But now I know to look for that too!

 

And this is not the only problem. Every time I look at a game, I find a ton of profiles with trophies earned in random order, often sharing time stamps with someone else. Sometimes these users are like PSN level 100 and stuff, but often they are like level 5 or 20 or whatever. I asked Sly to gather the accounts who shared the exact same trophy lists as the higher leveled users and perhaps look to ban them all, because every single PS3 trophy list they had 100% was out of order. I would often find clusters of like 20+ accounts.  I can't be bothered doing the gathering of this shit manually, so I might try to do it in another way. I doubt anyone wants these fake accounts on the leaderboards. I'm pretty sure they are made to be sold to people.