'Legit' Trophy Manipulation

[TigressLion]

As the title points out, is it possible with recorded screenshots, to be unflagged for trophy manipulation? Let me explain:

 

Games like Sam & Max allows save slots any given time. If I were to make a save before each trophy pops and do this for ALL the trophies, Back up all the saves onto a Flash Drive. After 100%ing Sam & Max, You screenshot your PSN trophy page to show proper timing and efforts (In Offline Mode) DON'T SYNC and then format your system removing the trophies. Then use the Backed Up saves in reverse order earning every trophy backwards, seconds to a minute apart. Ofc, I'd get flagged for this initially but with the provided SS and evidence, is this a disputable issue that could get one unflagged?

[MMDE]

It is trophy manipulation I guess... so not really I think.

[sephiroth4424]

The question is,why would you do that?

[iAlphaSoldier]

3 minutes ago, sephiroth4424 said:

The question is,why would you do that?

You beat me to it.

The only reason I can think of is when you want to be in the fastest achievers leaderboards listed.

 

A bunch of screenshots won't change that you tampered with the trophies/timestamps imo.

Edited April 6, 2017 by iAlphaSoldier

[Crispy_Oglop]

1 minute ago, sephiroth4424 said:

The question is,why would you do that?

 

^^ 100% This

 

Why in great Zeus' name would you do such an odd thing with save games? It's not even a case of 'oh i get it, I see what they would be trying to achieve with that process' it literally nonsensical.

[sephiroth4424]

2 minutes ago, iAlphaSoldier said:

You beat me to it.

The only reason I can think of is when you want to be in the fastest achievers leaderboards listed.

 

A bunch of screenshots won't change that you tampered with the trophies/timestamps imo.

If this is the reason,imo it shouldn't be allowed.This is a dick move for those who actually speedrunning.It's supposed to be about skills and dedication,not manipulating saves (i'm not a speedrunner,i lack both things)

[Sir_Bee]

To all of the people asking why, I ask why not?  It would be a way to the top of the fastest achiever board.

 

as for @TigressLion's question, I think you would have some issues.  I do not believe that would be cheating.  The game and SONY give you all the tools to do it, and you put in all the time and work to do it.  You would however, have a lot of people question it, and a lot of people likely flag you.  It would cause a headache that you may have to deal with for a long time.  I guess you have to decide if it is really worth all the effort.

[Gray-Fox-44]

I think that it still could be considered cheating and remain flagged, since your screenshot would prove that you earned the trophies once, but then I guess that there is no way to prove that the savefile  you used for the "speedrun" is actually yours. That's why autopopping trophies with savefiles isn' allowed here...

[Sir_Bee]

1 minute ago, Gray-Fox-44 said:

I think that it still could be considered cheating and remain flagged, since your screenshot would prove that you earned the trophies once, but then I guess that there is no way to prove that the savefile  you used for the "speedrun" is actually yours. That's why autopopping trophies with savefiles isn' allowed here...

 

But auto-popping is allowed here when it crosses multiple lists for the same game.  There is also no way to prove that you used your saves for those either other than "yea guys, I beat it once and then just used that'.  We have to believe that they still had their old save.  It also wouldn't be a true auto-pop, as he would have to load each save, and that would take time, more than a few seconds between trophies.  That could be used as proof that it wasn't a single save that had all the trophies already.

[NathanielJohn]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said:

To all of the people asking why, I ask why not?  It would be a way to the top of the fastest achiever board.

 

Right, and that's exactly why it should not be allowed. How is cheating your way to the top of the fastest achiever board any better than cheating your way to the top of the regular trophy leaderboard?

[Sir_Bee]

3 minutes ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

Right, and that's exactly why it should not be allowed. How is cheating your way to the top of the fastest achiever board any better than cheating your way to the top of the regular trophy leaderboard?

 

Why is it cheating though?  If I used pure skill to speed run shovel knight to post a record time, should I be angry that someone came along to beat it using a few screen wrapping techniques that were clearly still within the game?  Speedrunning as a 'sport' is all about finding the fastest way to get something done, and these boards are full of people who have done something similar to shorten the time it takes to get some of the more grindy trophies.  I guess I just don't understand why it would be considered cheating?

All in all @TigressLion, I don't think it is cheating, but I also don't think that it is worth the effort it would take and the headache it will cause.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Sir_Bee
odd text duplication

[NathanielJohn]

Just now, Sir_Bee said:

Speedrunning as a 'sport' is all about finding the fastest way to get something done,

 

It's a sport about finding the fastest way to get something done within the rules of the game. This is why Mario 64 speedruns using glitches are OK (all the glitches are in the game itself), but no one will give a shit if you post a "speedrun" of Mario 64 where you use a memory editor to dump yourself at the final boss instantly. This is also exactly why auto-popping trophies in games that have that as a feature is considered OK, while auto-popping trophies via save file manipulation is not.

 

If it's in the game itself, it's fair game. If it's not, it's cheating.

[Sir_Bee]

1 minute ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

It's a sport about finding the fastest way to get something done within the rules of the game. This is why Mario 64 speedruns using glitches are OK (all the glitches are in the game itself), but no one will give a shit if you post a "speedrun" of Mario 64 where you use a memory editor to dump yourself at the final boss instantly. This is also exactly why auto-popping trophies in games that have that as a feature is considered OK, while auto-popping trophies via save file manipulation is not.

 

If it's in the game itself, it's fair game. If it's not, it's cheating.

 

But he isn't using a memory editor.  The game provides you the tools to make as many saves as you would like.  He is doing the hours worth of set-up, it just doesn't show in the way that the timestamps are recorded.  Everything he did was within the game, using the tools that were handed to him by SONY and the Developers.  

[sephiroth4424]

9 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said:

 

Why is it cheating though?  If I used pure skill to speed run shovel knight to post a record time, should I be angry that someone came along to beat it using a few screen wrapping techniques that were clearly still within the game?  Speedrunning as a 'sport' is all about finding the fastest way to get something done, and these boards are full of people who have done something similar to shorten the time it takes to get some of the more grindy trophies.  I guess I just don't understand why it would be considered cheating?

All in all @TigressLion, I don't think it is cheating, but I also don't think that it is worth the effort it would take and the headache it will cause.

I guess is cheating,because you are into a list you shouldn't be.For example i can't speedrun.But i can play a game to a point,copy the save to a usb drive,delete my profile and do this over and over so i can be in the top 50 list of that game.I mean anyone can do it.If that's the case,why should we have leaderboards?It's suppose to show us the best not the smartest

Edited April 6, 2017 by sephiroth4424

[iAlphaSoldier]

1 minute ago, Sir_Bee said:

 

But he isn't using a memory editor.  The game provides you the tools to make as many saves as you would like.  He is doing the hours worth of set-up, it just doesn't show in the way that the timestamps are recorded.  Everything he did was within the game, using the tools that were handed to him by SONY and the Developers.  

It isn't really about who provides the tools for what they're planning. The thing is you'd use a save file to do it and as multiple people have tried getting their flags removed for using save files in dispute threads, the argument was made each time that there's no way of telling who said file belongs to. Making these kind of screenshots doesn't really prove anything in that regard because you'd be easily able to photoshop that in your favor.

[Sir_Bee]

1 minute ago, sephiroth4424 said:

I guess is cheating,because you are into a list you shouldn't be.For example i can't speedrun.But i can play a game to a point,copy the save to a usb drive,delete my profile and do this over and over so i can be in the top 50 list of that game.I mean anyone can do it.If that's the case,why should we have leaderboards?It's suppose to show us the best not the smartest

 

Ok, so it is against the spirit of the leaderboards, I can see how one would feel that way.  I guess that would also then make boosting to the top of a board cheating in your mind as well?  Because anyone can do that, just need a group of people?  It doesn't really showcase the skill required to actually earn the trophies?

1 minute ago, iAlphaSoldier said:

It isn't really about who provides the tools for what they're planning. The thing is you'd use a save file to do it and as multiple people have tried getting their flags removed for using save files in dispute threads, the argument was made each time that there's no way of telling who said file belongs to. Making these kind of screenshots doesn't really prove anything in that regard because you'd be easily able to photoshop that in your favor.

 

While that is true, it would provide reasonable doubt if you told everyone what you were doing before, you showed evidence of it being done and then provided the final result, all in a reasonable time frame.  That could all be used to provide evidence.  I mean he could even keep a thread to record his progress.

[ars]

13 minutes ago, NathanielJohn said:

 

It's a sport about finding the fastest way to get something done within the rules of the game.

 

Always nice to see people invent rules of their own and how they should apply to trophy hunting. OP wants to know if (s)he can prove how to pop with some ingenious savescum trickery without hex editing or importing a save, or editing the trophy database in a CFW's console would get the OP unflagged. It will, and that's just going to suck for your speedrun record. Mind me, this won't be the first or the last time savescumming happens to produce desired results in a game.

 

A game has no rules. It's software the only rules are which you yourself want to use in it's application. Boosting isn't cheating. Turbo controllers isn't cheating. Glitching, exploiting and savescumming isn't cheating. Using alt accounts to learn the speedrun, then playing it on your main isn't cheating. And formatting your system, then restoring backups isn't cheating. Cloud saves aren't cheating. The list goes on and on.

Edited April 6, 2017 by ars

[sephiroth4424]

Just now, Sir_Bee said:

 

Ok, so it is against the spirit of the leaderboards, I can see how one would feel that way.  I guess that would also then make boosting to the top of a board cheating in your mind as well?  Because anyone can do that, just need a group of people?  It doesn't really showcase the skill required to actually earn the trophies?

Actually it does.I'm not considering myself a 100% legit player because most of my online trophies are from boosting.Although when i mentioned that to others,they told me this isn't always the case because it's not our fault if a server is nearly dead so the only way to get those trophies is from boosting.In manipulating saves however,you can't say that

[Gray-Fox-44]

13 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said:

 

But auto-popping is allowed here when it crosses multiple lists for the same game.  There is also no way to prove that you used your saves for those either other than "yea guys, I beat it once and then just used that'.  We have to believe that they still had their old save.  It also wouldn't be a true auto-pop, as he would have to load each save, and that would take time, more than a few seconds between trophies.  That could be used as proof that it wasn't a single save that had all the trophies already.

It is allowed if the game has a cross-save feature, which is a completely different process as save sharing (even if you are using your own files)

If you take Sound Shapes, for example, every user will have speedruns of 30 seconds in all version BUT in the version they first achieved their 100% the time will be a real one (lets say 1 month just to set an example). Then if any given user has ALL VERSIONS IN 30 SECONDS, he/she will be reported and stayed flagged.

This is why I think it would be consider cheating (for flagging purposes) even if it isn't actual "cheating" because he/she auto-shares his/her own saves)

[Sir_Bee]

5 minutes ago, sephiroth4424 said:

Actually it does.I'm not considering myself a 100% legit player because most of my online trophies are from boosting.Although when i mentioned that to others,they told me this isn't always the case because it's not our fault if a server is nearly dead so the only way to get those trophies is from boosting.In manipulating saves however,you can't say that

 

Ok, then I have complete respect for your opinion, because you stick to it.  I still don't agree, but that is fine

 

2 minutes ago, Gray-Fox-44 said:

It is allowed if the game has a cross-save feature, which is a completely different process as save sharing (even if you are using your own files)

If you take Sound Shapes, for example, every user will have speedruns of 30 seconds in all version BUT in the version they first achieved their 100% the time will be a real one (lets say 1 month just to set an example). Then if any given user has ALL VERSIONS IN 30 SECONDS, he/she will be reported and stayed flagged.

This is why I think it would be consider cheating (for flagging purposes) even if it isn't actual "cheating" because he/she auto-shares his/her own saves)

 

So if a user plays sound and shapes, beats the game properly, gets the first platinum, and then his ps3 dies and he loses the save.  If he uses another save to pop all the other trophies, nobody would bat an eye, because everyone just assumes that he did it legit and he is pronounced innocent before being guilty.  In this case, even though he has photographic and timeline evidence that all the work was done by him, he would be immediately assumed guilty and the flag would stand.  I guess what I don't get is the steadfast assumption one way or the other.

[TigressLion]

I think out of curiosity I will do this. My PS3 hard drive has a corrupted partition where even if I delete a game it doesn't recover the allocated space, so I have to format this. I'll post a thread in Sam & Max starting tonight - tomorrow. Since I'm not using any editors or CFW or imports it'll be fine. I guarantee this will piss people off though. Though IMO, since Sony allows backups and formatting of your system, it's in the field of acceptance.

[Sir_Bee]

4 minutes ago, TigressLion said:

I think out of curiosity I will do this. My PS3 hard drive has a corrupted partition where even if I delete a game it doesn't recover the allocated space, so I have to format this. I'll post a thread in Sam & Max starting tonight - tomorrow. Since I'm not using any editors or CFW or imports it'll be fine. I guarantee this will piss people off though. Though IMO, since Sony allows backups and formatting of your system, it's in the field of acceptance.

 

Just be prepared, that while it isn't strictly cheating, it may be flagged and remain flagged anyway to appease the masses.

[ars]

1 minute ago, TigressLion said:

I think out of curiosity I will do this. My PS3 hard drive has a corrupted partition where even if I delete a game it doesn't recover the allocated space, so I have to format this.

 

If you've tested the hard drive and know for a fact it has a cluster that it can't write to, swap in a new one. Physical damage to the platter or the actuator can't be fixed with a format.

[Gray-Fox-44]

2 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said:

 

Ok, then I have complete respect for your opinion, because you stick to it.  I still don't agree, but that is fine

 

 

So if a user plays sound and shapes, beats the game properly, gets the first platinum, and then his ps3 dies and he loses the save.  If he uses another save to pop all the other trophies, nobody would bat an eye, because everyone just assumes that he did it legit and he is pronounced innocent before being guilty.  In this case, even though he has photographic and timeline evidence that all the work was done by him, he would be immediately assumed guilty and the flag would stand.  I guess what I don't get is the steadfast assumption one way or the other.

I think you're the one making assumpions here. I'm basing my opinion strictly based on the OP, in which the only evidence would be the original timestamps list, and nothing else. But if the evidence went as far as you suggest, providing video record of the savefile manipulation, a walkthrough guide trhough the process, etc, I think that he/she would make a point and MAYBE get unflagged (although I agree with you, that would be a long hard process)...

I don't consider save-sharing with oneself cheating, so in a way I agree with you. I'm just trying to provide evidence of how thungs work in the site so that OP doesn't end up with an undesired flag.

[iAlphaSoldier]

12 minutes ago, Sir_Bee said:

 

Ok, so it is against the spirit of the leaderboards, I can see how one would feel that way.  I guess that would also then make boosting to the top of a board cheating in your mind as well?  Because anyone can do that, just need a group of people?  It doesn't really showcase the skill required to actually earn the trophies?

 

While that is true, it would provide reasonable doubt if you told everyone what you were doing before, you showed evidence of it being done and then provided the final result, all in a reasonable time frame.  That could all be used to provide evidence.  I mean he could even keep a thread to record his progress.

The only way I would agree that there's enough evidence to prove that everything really was your own doing is by live streaming the whole process.

Then again that process will take a long time and I'm not sure anyone would watch that from start to finish.

 

I've done some speedruns on RE5 (not for trophies, just for fun) and not looking to get on any leaderboard for that. I can only magine how that would feel if you've spent hours and hours on perfecting your run just to have someone do some saves and backups to abuse the system and get before that person.