Why are people not more upset with the vaulted content?

[Vault-TecPhantom]

Bit of a rant:

 

I was a huge Destiny  2 fan a few years ago and played it religiously. After some time away I have returned to get the 100% and so much has changed that I'm just overwhelmed and, to be honest, a little sad because the game seems almost a shell of what it was since content got vaulted despite all the shiny new stuff. It breaks my heart that Red War, Warmind, COO and the brilliant Forsaken is pretty much ...gone.  Entire quest lines and locations just poofed out of the game. They were awesome quest lines and made me fall in love with this world.

 

How is it acceptable for Bungie to be able to take away content that we bought with our hard earned cash? I understand it's because last gen consoles can't handle it anymore but then that's a sign that we need Destiny 3 or the last gen consoles are gonna have to get left behind. I know some will say that makes no financial sense but if you're literally having to remove content that people have paid for to get the game to function properly then it's not worth it. Only in gaming is this sort of thing tolerated.

 

There are other little changes  that bother me too: Tess no longer provides bounties; now you have to get the cosmetic currency from either Zavala or other activities. They've removed traditional levelling in favour of season levelling? Why? And ffs Bungie pay Gina Torres whatever she wants so she can come back and voice Ikora. Please!!!

 

 

 

[ExHaseo]

It's been reported that about 13 million PS5s have been sold, while the PS4 has sold 114 million. It's still relatively difficult to get a PS5 too. I can pretty much guarantee that the vast majority of players are still on older hardware. They need to continue to cater to them.
As for the rest, that's the risk you run when you play an online game. Online games are constantly changing, and sometimes there's major reworks that remove content. That's just the nature of the genre. It's been that way for decades. Any and every online game is completely temporary anyway. Eventually, it will become unplayable. That's just a fact. If you don't like the temporary and ever changing nature of online games, then don't buy and play online games. There's plenty of other games out there.

[KingGuy420]

Alot of reasons

 

1. I'd rather have them vault content and keep supporting Destiny 2 rather than make Destiny 3 and have to start building a new end game from scratch. It is basically Destiny 3 at this point without me sacrificing my progress to buy a new game.

 

2. The file size would be ridiculous by now and there's no way I could justify keeping it on my hard drive. It went from like 130gb to 81gb during the first round of vaulting. Can't even imagine what the file size would look like if everything was in there.

 

3. 90% of the content that they vaulted wasn't being played anyways. We lost a couple fun things but they also trimmed alot of fat.

 

4. And this is my biggest one, the load times became a crazy amount shorter. Went from like 3 minutes to load into a strike to under 30 seconds. That alone, I'd sacrifice content for.

Edited August 8, 2022 by KingGuy420

[Vault-TecPhantom]

9 minutes ago, ExHaseo said:

It's been reported that about 13 million PS5s have been sold, while the PS4 has sold 114 million. It's still relatively difficult to get a PS5 too. I can pretty much guarantee that the vast majority of players are still on older hardware. They need to continue to cater to them.
As for the rest, that's the risk you run when you play an online game. Online games are constantly changing, and sometimes there's major reworks that remove content. That's just the nature of the genre. It's been that way for decades. Any and every online game is completely temporary anyway. Eventually, it will become unplayable. That's just a fact. If you don't like the temporary and ever changing nature of online games, then don't buy and play online games. There's plenty of other games out there.

 

I accept that online games have an expiration date but I'm just stunned by how quickly the first 4 campaigns got vaulted and the reason behind it which I feel was avoidable if Bungie had simply bit the bullet and waited for Destiny 3.

It's one thing to shut down servers, for instance, because of a practically non existent player base but it's quite another to just remove content because of last gen consoles can't handle it. Forsaken expansion only game out towards the end of 2018. That's not that long ago at all for a live service. Remember, eventually the PS5 and series X will eventually be where the main player base is very soon  so all that scrapped content will be for nothing, unless they plan on bringing it back.  

[ExHaseo]

21 minutes ago, Vault-TecPhantom said:

 

I accept that online games have an expiration date but I'm just stunned by how quickly the first 4 campaigns got vaulted and the reason behind it which I feel was avoidable if Bungie had simply bit the bullet and waited for Destiny 3.

It's one thing to shut down servers, for instance, because of a practically non existent player base but it's quite another to just remove content because of last gen consoles can't handle it. Forsaken expansion only game out towards the end of 2018. That's not that long ago at all for a live service. Remember, eventually the PS5 and series X will eventually be where the main player base is very soon  so all that scrapped content will be for nothing, unless they plan on bringing it back.  

4 years of support isn't bad. Phantasy Star Universe was only online a total of 4 years before getting shut down, and I don't regret buying or playing it all. They also made Forsaken free during it's last few months, which is far nicer than what most companies do. It's an online game, it's going to change, stuff isn't always going to be there. When you buy an online game, you are renting the game until they decide to take it down. Whether that be after 2 months, 2 years, or 2 decades. It's just an inherent risk of the genre. What's more important is the new content. If the new content is worse than what's taken away and starts to drag the game down, then there's legitimate reasons to complain, like with what happened with WoW. But just complaining that they removed content in an online game just sounds like you don't understand how online games work. I'd argue that the changes they made were a great thing. I've seen more people on my friend's list playing it the past 6 months than I've ever seen.

It's also not for nothing. You had the experience. Just because you can't replicate it anymore doesn't make it less valuable. If anything, it makes it more valuable. I mean, if you were to go see something like the Empire State building, but then 4 years later they decide to tear it down and replace it with another building, that doesn't mean the trip wasn't worth it or is somehow devalued just because it's not there anymore.
There's tons of games that I've enjoyed that have been completely shut down. Like Marvel Heroes, Tera, and Star Ocean Anamnesis, to name a few. And I miss older versions of games still running. Most notably, I really liked the older version of FFXIV. I thought it was really cool how you had to level multiple classes in order to get to the better ones, and I liked that some skills learned on some classes could be use on other classes. It gave a good reason to level and try out all the different classes, and made it feel like the character was actually stronger by incorporating all of their skills together. That's all completely gone now and has been simplified. You don't have to level any other class to unlock anything, and all of the shared skills are just unlocked for all classes that can use them. That doesn't make the game bad or not worth what I paid for it, it's just different now. I like that I was able to enjoy the game back then, and it's kind of cool being able to talk about what it used to be like with other players. I'd argue that those experiences are far more valuable now that things are so much different and they can't be replicated anymore. I also still love the game and still play it, because despite all the changes, it's still a great game. It's arguably better now that they've taken things away and changed them so drastically.

[AJ_Radio]

This is why I quit Old School RuneScape and World of Warcraft. 
 

Jagex decided to make Old School RuneScape a rehash of post Grand Exchange/Wilderness Limit era (2008 - 2012) a couple years after OSR released in 2013. Then they proceeded to make a number of training methods utterly useless and throw out ‘participation medals’ just because. 
 

World of Warcraft was getting a good amount of money for things like server changes, race changes, class changes, etc. They also dumbed down the talent skill trees altogether to help try to attract more people. Then you had those updates where entire class builds became overpowered or nerfed down. I had a Frost Mage build and Blizzard deliberately nerfed the class for reasons unknown. 
 

It was the same kind of treatment that Blizzard committed on Diablo 3 when that game was still largely relevant. Changing up classes, changing up how the online works, etc. 

 

As a player you are victim of whatever the developer throws at you. Don’t like the fact they removed your favorite content? Tough luck. 
 

So I quit MMOs altogether. MOBAs are also flaming piles of turds, as anybody who played League of Legends, DOTA 2, Overwatch and Fortnite can attest to.

Edited August 8, 2022 by AJ_Radio
MMOs and MOBAs suck

[ResoluteRock]

I think it's something that the community has largely accepted by now because this has been the norm for almost 2 years now. Bungie has been pretty open and honest with their community and communicate changes pretty well, so I think many people understand why the change needed to be made.

 

There is also the possibility that we will see that content returned in some way. They've "vaulted" the content, meaning they still have it, but it just isn't in the game currently. When they finish the Light + Dark Saga (which should be done around Spring 2024), we might see that content come back in some way.

 

As others have said, it also reduced the file size by A LOT. Destiny 2 currently sits around 90+ GB on my PS5, and I shudder to think of the size if they kept all of the content in the game. If they didn't remove content, we'd have a crowd of people that were angry at Bungie about the massive file size. If they had moved on to Destiny 3, people would complain about losing all of the cosmetics and progress they made in Destiny 2. Even if they carried over all of your progress, that means they'd have to bring all of the weapons, cosmetics, and armor pieces from the previous game, so you'd already be starting off with a massive Destiny 3 that didn't have much room to grow before they ran into the file size problem again.

 

Simply put, they were at a crossroads and I think this was the best decision they could settle on. It feels more like a "band-aid" to me because it feels like a temporary solution while they try to put together a long-term plan as to what to do with this vaulted content. There is always the possibility that we will see this content returned in the future (although I find it to be unlikely).

Edited August 8, 2022 by ResoluteRock

[UnwaveringSoul_]

Those who were outraged by vaulted content stopped playing and talking about the game. I assure you there are plenty of people who really hate the fact that content they paid for is no longer available. Went it first happened I remember there being a mass exodus of players who refused to play the game any longer or support Bungie. 

 

The people who still play the game are generally the people who didn't have much problem with it or are relatively new to the game.

[Vault-TecPhantom]

11 hours ago, ExHaseo said:

4 years of support isn't bad. Phantasy Star Universe was only online a total of 4 years before getting shut down, and I don't regret buying or playing it all. They also made Forsaken free during it's last few months, which is far nicer than what most companies do. It's an online game, it's going to change, stuff isn't always going to be there. When you buy an online game, you are renting the game until they decide to take it down. Whether that be after 2 months, 2 years, or 2 decades. It's just an inherent risk of the genre. What's more important is the new content. If the new content is worse than what's taken away and starts to drag the game down, then there's legitimate reasons to complain, like with what happened with WoW. But just complaining that they removed content in an online game just sounds like you don't understand how online games work. I'd argue that the changes they made were a great thing. I've seen more people on my friend's list playing it the past 6 months than I've ever seen.

It's also not for nothing. You had the experience. Just because you can't replicate it anymore doesn't make it less valuable. If anything, it makes it more valuable. I mean, if you were to go see something like the Empire State building, but then 4 years later they decide to tear it down and replace it with another building, that doesn't mean the trip wasn't worth it or is somehow devalued just because it's not there anymore.
There's tons of games that I've enjoyed that have been completely shut down. Like Marvel Heroes, Tera, and Star Ocean Anamnesis, to name a few. And I miss older versions of games still running. Most notably, I really liked the older version of FFXIV. I thought it was really cool how you had to level multiple classes in order to get to the better ones, and I liked that some skills learned on some classes could be use on other classes. It gave a good reason to level and try out all the different classes, and made it feel like the character was actually stronger by incorporating all of their skills together. That's all completely gone now and has been simplified. You don't have to level any other class to unlock anything, and all of the shared skills are just unlocked for all classes that can use them. That doesn't make the game bad or not worth what I paid for it, it's just different now. I like that I was able to enjoy the game back then, and it's kind of cool being able to talk about what it used to be like with other players. I'd argue that those experiences are far more valuable now that things are so much different and they can't be replicated anymore. I also still love the game and still play it, because despite all the changes, it's still a great game. It's arguably better now that they've taken things away and changed them so drastically.

 

It's not, "how online games work" and we as consumers should not accept this terrible practice.  ‘Rent' is not paying £55 to £100 a year. That's outright 'buy' money.  If you're going to make the argument that we're merely “renting” content then said content should be much cheaper or, better yet, on a monthly subscription.

 

Secondly, making adjustments is not the same as outright making huge amounts of paid, once playable content inaccessible. Other popular online games have better decision making at the top; they simply make a new instalment (The Division 2) or leave old consoles behind (GTA Online, Black Ops III) when an old platform can’t accommodate the devs’ ambitions. 

 

Your building analogy doesn't work at all.  What you’re defending is not replacing an old building with a new one,  more like pulling out parts of a building, including its very foundation, watching it crumble as it barely holds together and then still expecting people to go inside. Destiny’s story spans multiple parts that are deeply interconnected which is why it’s so obvious, even if you’re a new player, that there are parts missing. It feels incredibly awkward and disjointed now, whereas before it did an excellent job of gradually getting players familiarised with its systems through well integrated story content which doubled as tutorials.

 

And it's not just the story. What set Destiny apart, for me, was its world building, as if you could look at the skyline at the Tower and truly believe there is more beyond the boundaries of what the game will technically allow. Gutting 4 campaigns and its related content makes the world feel small somehow and less immersive. It just doesn’t feel  “believable” to me anymore. For instance, Calus feels less of a threat just hearing him referenced in vague conversations, whereas before you felt how imposing he was when you were forced to go against him in the challenging Leviathan raid. 

 

Again, there is an understanding that online games have an expiration date and/or will be changed and rebalanced through time but that’s not the same thing at all. We’re talking about a game that is still very much alive with a healthy player base and still very much taking our money as I type, and Bungie’s reasoning for content removal was weak and the worst possible way to handle it. It also  just seems like a sinister attempt to create FOMO at every possible opportunity, even down to the removal of capped levelling in favour of seasonal levelling. I’m not convinced that Bungie won’t just resell some of that old content, since for new players my understanding is that what little is left of Forsaken is mostly not free… 

 

Your, “what’s more important is the new content” beautifully sums up the attitude of gamers who have just let this slip by, and demonstrates that, wrongly or rightly, there are players who just want to move on to the next shiny new thing and have no respect for legacy. I just can’t understand that mentality. Ubisoft came under fire recently for removal of paid DLC so much so that they walked it back and I’m not sure why Bungie is allowed to get away with this in a game that is still going…

 

Still, I’m hopeful that, eventually, even those who have accepted it for now are going to wake up and realise this has awful long term implications, not just for Destiny but for the industry as a whole.

 

[sepheroithisgod]

Content vaulting works for several reasons.

 

1) It prevents the player base from being too spread out.

2) It saves server resources, which helps the company save money (thus a longer support window).

3) It helps reduce the file size, which is a big deal for PS4 owners as a small update could result in copying over 100gbs.

 

[Maniadh417]

This thread is long dead but I just want to add that I've recently got into destiny 1 for a bit of fun (I play mostly solo but don't mind when strangers hop in and plenty still do).

 

But for myself solo content, story and missions is the most interesting, and even though base D2 is free I'm really put off knowing there was a whole campaign I couldn't play and I feel that I'll be missing a link in the story if I play any of the other DLC now, so I'll probably not engage with D2 as much as I am with D1 now.

 

I get that these games by nature don't fully cater to me (I am interested in reaching endgame content but not necessarily staying on the grind once I'm there) but still, a better solution should have been found, which would likely have been a free D3 /extra content D2 launcher that allowed progression carrying but didn't have stuff like the base D2 campaign and earlier dlcs playable on it.

 

Removing cotnent especially for people who bought it feels like a massive betrayal of trust. I'm just lucky I didn't buy forsaken because I almost did a while ago and I probably wouldn't have played it in time.

 

In a case like that, I can't imagine not asking for a refund so that they wouldn't is shocking.

On 8/8/2022 at 2:43 PM, Vault-TecPhantom said:

 

It's not, "how online games work" and we as consumers should not accept this terrible practice.  ‘Rent' is not paying £55 to £100 a year. That's outright 'buy' money.  If you're going to make the argument that we're merely “renting” content then said content should be much cheaper or, better yet, on a monthly subscription.

 

Secondly, making adjustments is not the same as outright making huge amounts of paid, once playable content inaccessible. Other popular online games have better decision making at the top; they simply make a new instalment (The Division 2) or leave old consoles behind (GTA Online, Black Ops III) when an old platform can’t accommodate the devs’ ambitions. 

 

Your building analogy doesn't work at all.  What you’re defending is not replacing an old building with a new one,  more like pulling out parts of a building, including its very foundation, watching it crumble as it barely holds together and then still expecting people to go inside. Destiny’s story spans multiple parts that are deeply interconnected which is why it’s so obvious, even if you’re a new player, that there are parts missing. It feels incredibly awkward and disjointed now, whereas before it did an excellent job of gradually getting players familiarised with its systems through well integrated story content which doubled as tutorials.

 

And it's not just the story. What set Destiny apart, for me, was its world building, as if you could look at the skyline at the Tower and truly believe there is more beyond the boundaries of what the game will technically allow. Gutting 4 campaigns and its related content makes the world feel small somehow and less immersive. It just doesn’t feel  “believable” to me anymore. For instance, Calus feels less of a threat just hearing him referenced in vague conversations, whereas before you felt how imposing he was when you were forced to go against him in the challenging Leviathan raid. 

 

Again, there is an understanding that online games have an expiration date and/or will be changed and rebalanced through time but that’s not the same thing at all. We’re talking about a game that is still very much alive with a healthy player base and still very much taking our money as I type, and Bungie’s reasoning for content removal was weak and the worst possible way to handle it. It also  just seems like a sinister attempt to create FOMO at every possible opportunity, even down to the removal of capped levelling in favour of seasonal levelling. I’m not convinced that Bungie won’t just resell some of that old content, since for new players my understanding is that what little is left of Forsaken is mostly not free… 

 

Your, “what’s more important is the new content” beautifully sums up the attitude of gamers who have just let this slip by, and demonstrates that, wrongly or rightly, there are players who just want to move on to the next shiny new thing and have no respect for legacy. I just can’t understand that mentality. Ubisoft came under fire recently for removal of paid DLC so much so that they walked it back and I’m not sure why Bungie is allowed to get away with this in a game that is still going…

 

Fully agree

[ResiGamer_28]

Ubisoft didn't just come under fire for removal of paid dlc though, they came under fire for selling that dlc on sale (Xbox 360 BC sale) 3 days before they closed down servers for those games with no warning. They claimed it was an accident but they added all the games to a server sunset list and were telling people servers are closed when they asked why they couldn't access the maps they just paid for. This was April 2022 when they tried to close all the AC games, FC games, Driver and SC Blacklist with no warning. They were off for 7 days. It led to them printing an apology saying they would give server shutdown notice and 3 weeks later announced the actual shutdown date. If Ubisoft got away with that, don't be surprised Bungie got away with this though its unlike Bungie since they gave everyone all the paid Halo maps for free on the legacy games after 343 announced their buyout.