Definition of Hacking

[Sir_Bee]

I have a question as to what qualifies as hacking a trophy. This is in regards to Batman Arkham city. 5630 people now have the platinum trophy, but every single one of them had to go in and change the dates on their PS3 to get the "Storyteller" trophy. Would that classify as 'hacking'? For someone to legitimately get that trophy without changing any dates, it would take 11 months.

Another example of this would be in the game My Aquarium. To legitimately get that 100%, it would take months, or you can do it in a couple hours by changing the dates on your ps3.

I guess my question is where is the line on what 'hacks' are ok, and what are not.

FYI, dont take this as my saying I am better then them, I was most definitely one of the 5630 who changed my date settings to get the trophy. It was after that which I read a bunch of posts on here about people complaining about players hacking trophies. So I am curious if this is considered ok, while something else (not knowing what that something is) is not. Where is the line?

[Jarred_450]

I see no problem with changing a date. For batman you still have to actually load the game and talk to Calendar man, and experience all 12 dialogues for the trophy.

Hacking to me is using a game save or a modded ps3 to just unlock trophies with out actually "earning" them. I'm kinda on the line about in game exploits. Such as activating cheats and still being able earn the trophies (Example. Star Wars tfu) to make it thru the game. But you do actually have to play the game with those so I don't mind.

At the end of the day (and I hope everyone else feels the same way) I had fun playing the games I wanted to play so I could care less about someone else's false sense of completion

[allenbird]

Changing the date for certain trophies is a common practice which is included in many game guides. For instance the trophy in singstar where you have to play on christmas to get a trophy.

I would say this is more of an exploit rather than a hack. Exploiting certain factors within gaming parameters including helpful glitches occur frequently and I would not consider this hacking of any type as you are still working within the parameters of the game.

Hacking to me is when you use a save file that you did not create to gain trophies or using some type of hacking system to change the coding of a game.

If you think about it, the system in a game that allows a player to unlock all difficulty trophies by playing on the hardest difficulty could be considered a hack too if you called changing the date a hack.

So for me it's like this:

Exploit

Boost

Glitch

Hack

Edited June 15, 2012 by allenbird

[Sir_Bee]

So using a duplication glitch from Dead Island, or changing the dates for Arkham city are both ok. But once you use someone else's work, or change the actual coding (only example of this I know would be Diablo 2 hacks where you can make any item you want, with any skills) would be wrong.

[allenbird]

Oh I wasn't trying to state right or wrong. I just wouldn't consider a glitch, or an exploit equal to a hack. Not the same thing in my mind.

Edited June 15, 2012 by allenbird

[DanielVT]

I call myself a 100% legit gamer. I don't boost, I don't hack, and I don't use cheat codes. However, I personally cannot see anything wrong with changing a date. In fact, I myself did it with Flower's date related trophy. It is not cheating or anything like that IMO.

[A12]

As other people have said, this is an Exploit.

Exploits are usually Not frowned upon. Because everyone including the Dev's know it's there, and don't care.

[mtlshdwoverlord7]

I'd just like to say that I'm unsure if using a game save from someone else would actually qualify as hacking because they made the game save available to you, since you can easily acquire other people's saves from sites like gamefaqs or nextgenupdate. Am I missing something here?

[DeathExile]

How Is changing the date exploiting the game ? Or hacking?

I'll give you the defintion of hacking.

Hacking: 1)a person, as an artist or writer, who exploits, for money, his or her creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and trite work; one who produces banal and mediocre work

2)a professional who renounces or surrenders individual independence, integrity, belief, etc., in return for money or other reward in the performance of a task normally thought of as involving a strong personal commitment) Ex Getting A Platinum

So Does Changing a date to get a trophy equal to this.

Not it clearly doesn't

[Sir_Bee]

How Is changing the date exploiting the game ? Or hacking?

I'll give you the defintion of hacking.

Hacking: 1)a person, as an artist or writer, who exploits, for money, his or her creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and trite work; one who produces banal and mediocre work

2)a professional who renounces or surrenders individual independence, integrity, belief, etc., in return for money or other reward in the performance of a task normally thought of as involving a strong personal commitment) Ex Getting A Platinum

So Does Changing a date to get a trophy equal to this.

Not it clearly doesn't

First of all, I am not sure if it was intended, but I got a clear impression that you thought I was stupid for asking the question.

Second, hacking was not really the right word for my choice. The arguments I hear on this forum are about people who earn their trophies legit complaining about those who 'cheat' and lead the leader board. I would argue that people are skewing the term legit to their benefit. If you want to legitimately earn the Storyteller trophy (as in my example) you would have to play the game on 12 specific dates, and talk to the calendar man on those dates. The legitimate method to earn this trophy would take 11 months. Therefore, every single person who has that trophy as of right now has done something illegitimate. The argument that this is an exploit that is part of the game does not make this more legit. It is not part of the game, you have to leave your game to change the settings in your PS3, to then load the game again. The arguments I hear is "It is ok, because everyone is doing it." or "It is ok because everyone knows it exists." While those statements are true as fact, they don't change the fact that you are doing something illegitimate. Let me ask you this, if it were more difficult to change the date on your system, for example Sony only allowed it to be updated via Internet, would it be hacking if you found a way around that? If so, why is it not considered 'hacking' just because it is easy.

Third, According to Dictionary.com, a definition for hacking is : "To devise or modify (a computer program), usually skillfully"

With that definition, we have to modify the date within the settings of the PS3 to achieve the desired result. Yes it is easy, Yes it is common, No it does not require skill, but that does not stop it from fitting that definition at the most basic level

.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Sir_Bee

[PSXtreme_]

If you can do it with a stock system and a stock copy of the game, with no additional programming, it's not normally considered hacking. For those ancient gamers, I'm sure you remember jiggling the Atari 2600 power switch to gain special access to certain games. Changing the date would more fall under the Easter Egg category rather than the hacking kind.

[d3m0nd00d]

I call myself a 100% legit gamer. I don't boost, I don't hack, and I don't use cheat codes. However, I personally cannot see anything wrong with changing a date. In fact, I myself did it with Flower's date related trophy. It is not cheating or anything like that IMO.

You don't boost! You and I are definitely part of the minority.

To the OP it all comes down to what you feel is right - in the end it's your gaming experience.

[Sir_Bee]

If you can do it with a stock system and a stock copy of the game, with no additional programming, it's not normally considered hacking. For those ancient gamers, I'm sure you remember jiggling the Atari 2600 power switch to gain special access to certain games. Changing the date would more fall under the Easter Egg category rather than the hacking kind.

Do Easter eggs directly link to acquiring trophies though? I mean it would be fine if he just said cool things on those days, that would be an "Easter egg", but because it is required to get the platinum trophy I would have figured it different.

[allenbird]

First of all, I am not sure if it was intended, but I got a clear impression that you thought I was stupid for asking the question.

Second, hacking was not really the right word for my choice. The arguments I hear on this forum are about people who earn their trophies legit complaining about those who 'cheat' and lead the leader board. I would argue that people are skewing the term legit to their benefit. If you want to legitimately earn the Storyteller trophy (as in my example) you would have to play the game on 12 specific dates, and talk to the calendar man on those dates. The legitimate method to earn this trophy would take 11 months. Therefore, every single person who has that trophy as of right now has done something illegitimate. The argument that this is an exploit that is part of the game does not make this more legit. It is not part of the game, you have to leave your game to change the settings in your PS3, to then load the game again. The arguments I hear is "It is ok, because everyone is doing it." or "It is ok because everyone knows it exists." While those statements are true as fact, they don't change the fact that you are doing something illegitimate. Let me ask you this, if it were more difficult to change the date on your system, for example Sony only allowed it to be updated via Internet, would it be hacking if you found a way around that? If so, why is it not considered 'hacking' just because it is easy.

Third, According to Dictionary.com, a definition for hacking is : "To devise or modify (a computer program), usually skillfully"

With that definition, we have to modify the date within the settings of the PS3 to achieve the desired result. Yes it is easy, Yes it is common, No it does not require skill, but that does not stop it from fitting that definition at the most basic level

.

Ahhh I was under the assumption that you just wanted our opinions on the definition of what we consider hacking and if changing the time setting is within that definition.

I didn't know this was about leaderboard legitimacy. In that case you would have to call apples and apples or oranges and oranges.

Meaning, would someone who did the date trophy on Batman AC be equal to someone who did the trophy legitimately by playing on 11 different dates as stated. That is what sets the precidence of the leaderboard arguement. Of course it could be said for many things in games I.E. is one person playing solo on one account equal to 2 or more people playing on one account etc...

You could then make an arguement that anyone who has done any type of exploitation on a given game could be consider more or less to those who have not.

Uncharted is a good example as you have to play each difficulty to obtain the platinum as oppose to a game like Bulletstorm where playing on very hard will also give you the easy, normal and hard trophies as well as the very hard ones. Granted one could also argue that playing a game on the hardest setting is equal to playing a game on easy multiple times.

As far as the time changing aspect, you make a good point. Changing a date on the PS3 is outside of the parameters of specific games so could be construed as hacking in a certain sense. The common concensus usually equates hacking with file sharing and is taken in a negative context.

Textbook definitions aside, you could say earning any one trophy without putting any effort towards the actual requirements for the trophy is considered hacking. I would think changing times on the PS3 could be looked at in this light.

I doubt it will be recognized as such on any leaderboard.

Edited June 15, 2012 by allenbird

[Sir_Bee]

You don't boost! You and I are definitely part of the minority.

To the OP it all comes down to what you feel is right - in the end it's your gaming experience.

I agree that it comes down to personal experience. But with the new "cheater removal" system being added, I am just wondering where the line would be. And why some 'cheating' is ok while some is not. That is why I am asking

[allenbird]

I agree that it comes down to personal experience. But with the new "cheater removal" system being added, I am just wondering where the line would be. And why some 'cheating' is ok while some is not. That is why I am asking

That comes down to ease of detection and what Sly wants to consider cheating. If he wanted to nit pick every aspect of everything that could be considered cheating, I am sure he could do that. I think he is mainly targeting those who have hacked entire games where all the time stamps are the same. As has been said in chat many times, there is no platinum you can get within a minute, so he targeted anyone who had a plat time in a minute or so.

I personally think that is fair, or at least a start.

[Sir_Bee]

I personally think that is fair, or at least a start.

I agree.

[Elliot]

So using a duplication glitch from Dead Island, or changing the dates for Arkham city are both ok. But once you use someone else's work, or change the actual coding (only example of this I know would be Diablo 2 hacks where you can make any item you want, with any skills) would be wrong.

Yep, the definition I go on is "if it's actually within the game, it's OK".

[DanielVT]

You don't boost! You and I are definitely part of the minority.

To the OP it all comes down to what you feel is right - in the end it's your gaming experience.

Yes, I believe we are. The only boosting I have ever done was in MW2 and that had nothing to do with trophies. I felt so guilty that I had to stop and have never boosted since. That was only for a few levels, and was not for trophies as mentioned. It feels good to know that not a single one of my trophies is "tainted" (yes even the Homefront plat ). The only "questionable" trophies that I possess are some of the Madden Arcade ones. I started that one up, and played with my little bro, and my golly did he kick my ass and completed the trophy requirements, thus by sucking I earned the trophies! I also had him not tackle me so I could score on the first play of the game. I do not count those as tainted as it was not technical boosting and I was player 1 after all. It is also worth noting that NOBODY has earned any of my trophies but me.

[Sir_Bee]

Yep, the definition I go on is "if it's actually within the game, it's OK".

The argument against that is, changing the dates on your PS3 is not within the game.

Yes, I believe we are. The only boosting I have ever done was in MW2 and that had nothing to do with trophies. I felt so guilty that I had to stop and have never boosted since. That was only for a few levels, and was not for trophies as mentioned. It feels good to know that not a single one of my trophies is "tainted" (yes even the Homefront plat ). The only "questionable" trophies that I possess are some of the Madden Arcade ones. I started that one up, and played with my little bro, and my golly did he kick my ass and completed the trophy requirements, thus by sucking I earned the trophies! I also had him not tackle me so I could score on the first play of the game. I do not count those as tainted as it was not technical boosting and I was player 1 after all. It is also worth noting that NOBODY has earned any of my trophies but me.

While I greatly respect your ambition, and your non-boosting method, you have fallen into the same trap that I mention in this thread.

You say that "NOBODY has earned any of my trophies but me" and yet you openly admit that your little brother earned some of the Madden Arcade trophies. Also, how would "I also had him not tackle me so I could score on the first play of the game" not be classified as boosting? You had to ask him to do something special just so you could achieve that goal.

All I am trying to point out is that pretty much every single one of us set out our goals, and then make exceptions to rules saying "I do not count those as tainted".

[DanielVT]

The argument against that is, changing the dates on your PS3 is not within the game.

While I greatly respect your ambition, and your non-boosting method, you have fallen into the same trap that I mention in this thread.

You say that "NOBODY has earned any of my trophies but me" and yet you openly admit that your little brother earned some of the Madden Arcade trophies. Also, how would "I also had him not tackle me so I could score on the first play of the game" not be classified as boosting? You had to ask him to do something special just so you could achieve that goal.

All I am trying to point out is that pretty much every single one of us set out our goals, and then make exceptions to rules saying "I do not count those as tainted".

I disagree. I earned those trophies on Madden fair and square. I was playing the game, and I was player 1. I earned the trophy IMO regardless. It is not my fault the trophies on Madden work that way. Hell, I can go back and redo everything with two controllers. The part where I had him not tackle me is not boosting as I could have done the exact same thing with a second controller as I did with Madden 11. I am completely legit, as I never have cheated/boosted nor ever will.

[JCChrono]

^I have to agree there. That's boosting. Really, we could look at anyone's trophy list and how they were earned and find things to criticize. I think Megamind and similar insanely easy games that you probably didn't enjoy but wanted the easy platinum is offered is one step away from hacking fake trophies into your account. But you'll find Spare Parts in my trophy list. Thought it was fun, upon further playing was bored, but I kept going til I got the platinum. Now I contradict myself in the same way.

Topics like this will essentally fall under "If I did I wouldn't consider it cheating, and if I worked hard to earn trophies and someone finds a simpler way to win it feels like cheating." Back to the main question, I would be impressed if someone actually waited for all 12 dates to get that trophy, and I can't really lock in an opinion about date switching.

[DaRe]

Hacking (trophies): v. The act of receiving trophies without meeting the trophy's requirements. The easiest way to spot hacked trophies is when the trophy is earned faster than possible by legitimate means.

Hacked trophies: n. Trophies that were obtained by the means of hacking. Using game saves to receive trophies does not qualify as a hacked trophy, neither does it qualify as a trophy earned in a legitimate way.

As for what is okay and what is not okay when receiving trophies is dependent on the situation and the perspective of a person. For example, let's say I got a particular game with online trophies right after the servers were shut down. I would like to have the platinum of that game, but I won't be able to do it legitimately because of the servers being closed. If I decided to hack only the online trophies, then it's okay, because it's considered unobtainable by traditional means. If I decide to hack a trophy that I can obtain without the use of hacks/game saves, for whatever reason, then it's no longer looked at as okay. Like I said, it depends on the person, so you may or may not agree with me and my scenario.

[OmegaDenmad]

While as the ongoing discussion shows the extremes are clear and the middle is subjective, here are my 2 cents: As long as you can get the trophy only using your PS3, your DS3/Move controller, and the game, it's not hacking.

As soon as an external app, a modified savefile, someone else playing the game for you, or mechanical enhancements (I mean something like gamepads you can program with a secuence of moves, not a bionic arm ), that for me does fall into hacking or a similar enough concept of "you are not really achieving this with your own effort".

Boosting for me is at the same level as using a guide or coming upon a glitch that doesn't harm other players. Since it's tough for people in countries with bad international speeds to find decent connections, might as well organize with other players to be able to finish it.

[allenbird]

I think Megamind and similar insanely easy games that you probably didn't enjoy but wanted the easy platinum is offered is one step away from hacking fake trophies into your account.

I understand the subjectiveness of difficulty. I also understand the subjectiveness of fun. What I don't understand is how any game no matter how "easy" it is could even be considered close to hacking, no matter the definitions that have been stated.

You make the statement "probably didn't enjoy" making the assumption that people only enjoy playing hard games and this is simply not true.

The truth is if the PS3 offered only hard games, then there would be considerably less people playing. People like different games and just because you deem a game easy doesn't make it easy for everyone.

This thread does not even touch on game difficulty and the subjective psychological challenges that games present many people.

hacking=playing easy games?? or one step from?

I for one like easy games. I like hard games too, but what is easy and hard for me is not the same as it is for you, nor is what is enjoyable or not, so generalized statements of "easy games one step from hacking" and "probably not enjoyable" is insulting to those of us who actually do enjoy getting the platinum on games you don't enjoy.