Cheaters Policy

[ionstorm777]

is it included in the box you bought your game with?

Is it considered cheating when you use a shortcut(formula) to solve math? Is it considered cheating to study, learn and remember the best way to solve (insert random school/university thing to need to learn here) the test/exam? That's my view on trophy guides aswell. It's not cheating, it's getting good at your game.

And most games don't have a guide ready when it is released, some of the fastest achievers write the guide as they solve the problem.

[Stevieboy]

is it included in the box you bought your game with?

I have a Limited Edition copy of Resident Evil 4 for the PS2 that has a mini-guide for the first chapter of the game included in the box.

[ShinYagami13]

Is it considered cheating when you use a shortcut(formula) to solve math? Is it considered cheating to study, learn and remember the best way to solve (insert random school/university thing to need to learn here) the test/exam? That's my view on trophy guides aswell. It's not cheating, it's getting good at your game.

And most games don't have a guide ready when it is released, some of the fastest achievers write the guide as they solve the problem.

unlucky analogy again

its like someone solved the problem and gave you the formula, u dont know which formula to use just looking at a problem

thats what guides do

somebody beats the game and tells you how to get a trophy the fastest and easiest way

there are many opportunities for some and when you follow ones guide you are doing it his way not yours

I have a Limited Edition copy of Resident Evil 4 for the PS2 that has a mini-guide for the first chapter of the game included in the box.

i dont even have to respond dude cause u said it all

limited edition, mini-guide, 1st chapter... smells like tutorial to me only in written form so u feel good about your limited edition, sorry

btw no trophies included lol

Edited August 24, 2012 by ShinYagami13

[Kyouko_Sakura]

Sometimes reading guides you'll find their way doesn't work 100% for you and so you adapt but using the guide as a starting point gives a bit of an idea where to start. I have a question then using your guides are cheating since developers and such don't make them but what about DLC that makes trophies pop earlier than intended like for instance Record of Agarest War's they made that accessible knowing what it can do and the person has to pay for it, so do you accept that?

Your argument also basically means people can't converse about a game and their strategies used since that'd be cheating if I am reading this right but it is almost 1am and I am not in the mood to think right now...

As for the boosting that can't be proven and a lot of people arranging sessions for fun would get flagged if that was enough criteria...

I do have a question, Sly you said originally something about a clean, lenient(1% or less cheated) and a dirty leaderboard was the lenient axed due to problems with making the 1% detected or was it just harder to create because wouldn't that be a welcome solution to this bickering? *I can't remember where I read that either now...*

[R_e_m_y]

I personally don't care about the leader boards and try to archive 100% just as it looks nice in the menu. But I do know how those people feel who have been labeled cheaters because they have 1 game hacked on their account. I hacked SOCOM because back then when the hacked save was published to public it was something new and unbelievable. Did I use that save to get the trophies - no. I did it because I believed its not possible. I was wrong .

Boosting is just as dishonest as hacked saves. With hacked save you take someone else's work and label it as your own, with boosting you do some of the work but not really the amount that developers had in mind. Then again some developers are crazy when they think that I want to play 1000+ hours of one game. Does it justify boosting or hacking from the leader board point of view. No. But as I want to archive 100% completion on all my games I do boost to save time.

And I don't think there really is many honest players here - really. If someone does the trophy for you (not with hacked save but literally play the game with your account) then its just as dishonest as hacked save and I know personally that a lot of people in top 50 do that. I was offered a trade to do some trophies for them in trade of another trophy. Difference is that you can't catch those people.

In my view it would be more reasonable if there was an option for people to mark their own trophies that they have hacked and those would be removed from stats. Give people some time and after that if you can find hacked trophies in their list, mark them as cheaters.

Edited August 24, 2012 by R_e_m_y

[ShinYagami13]

Sometimes reading guides you'll find their way doesn't work 100% for you and so you adapt but using the guide as a starting point gives a bit of an idea where to start. I have a question then using your guides are cheating since developers and such don't make them but what about DLC that makes trophies pop earlier than intended like for instance Record of Agarest War's they made that accessible knowing what it can do and the person has to pay for it, so do you accept that?

Your argument also basically means people can't converse about a game and their strategies used since that'd be cheating if I am reading this right but it is almost 1am and I am not in the mood to think right now...

As for the boosting that can't be proven and a lot of people arranging sessions for fun would get flagged if that was enough criteria...

I do have a question, Sly you said originally something about a clean, lenient(1% or less cheated) and a dirty leaderboard was the lenient axed due to problems with making the 1% detected or was it just harder to create because wouldn't that be a welcome solution to this bickering? *I can't remember where I read that either now...*

idk about Record of Agarest War and all of that but it sounds like a glitch they haven't patched

now about the argument you are going to have to read the previous posts sorry

but to summarize it i m just saying that we draw the line on whats legit & whats not

and reading guides or boosting we have accepted because it suits us all basically

i m not saying it should be forbidden lol

that something cant be proven is no argument its still cheating

people have used saves and went undetected but they still cheated

[Sir_Bee]

idk about Record of Agarest War and all of that but it sounds like a glitch they haven't patched

now about the argument you are going to have to read the previous posts sorry

but to summarize it i m just saying that we draw the line on whats legit & whats not

and reading guides or boosting we have accepted because it suits us all basically

i m not saying it should be forbidden lol

that something cant be proven is no argument its still cheating

people have used saves and went undetected but they still cheated

I am confused about something here. If you want to get down to basics and call using the community and guides as cheating, then whenever you do anything in a game that the developer didn't plan for is cheating. If you find a way to avoid a fight and leave the room, one the developer didn't think of, you cheated. If you find a way to jump from one part of the track to the other, an unintended shortcut, you cheated. In Gran Tourismo, when you turn a corner and use the car outside you to keep you on the track, you are technically cheating. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere, just as there needs to be a line with every other rule in life. Beating the game with your own skills and talents, after you studied for it by reading a guide, is not unacceptable, nor is it 'unfair' to those who chose to do it without a guide. You still beat the boss, you still played through the whole game. You still did the work required to get the trophy, you just studied up on the race you were entering, and made a choice on how to get from A - B.

[Stevieboy]

You still did the work required to get the trophy

This is the most important comment of all. If you're boosting then you're still doing the task or tasks required for the trophies. If you're following a guide then you're still doing the things needed to beat the game and get any collectables required. If you're loading up an altered save or hacking the game then you aren't doing anything other than waiting for the trophies to pop. There is a huge difference.

[ShinYagami13]

I am confused about something here. If you want to get down to basics and call using the community and guides as cheating, then whenever you do anything in a game that the developer didn't plan for is cheating. If you find a way to avoid a fight and leave the room, one the developer didn't think of, you cheated. If you find a way to jump from one part of the track to the other, an unintended shortcut, you cheated. In Gran Tourismo, when you turn a corner and use the car outside you to keep you on the track, you are technically cheating. There needs to be a line drawn somewhere, just as there needs to be a line with every other rule in life. Beating the game with your own skills and talents, after you studied for it by reading a guide, is not unacceptable, nor is it 'unfair' to those who chose to do it without a guide. You still beat the boss, you still played through the whole game. You still did the work required to get the trophy, you just studied up on the race you were entering, and made a choice on how to get from A - B.

no offence mate but you probably the only one thats confused

i have said it before i will say it again (3rd time i think)

i m not suggesting we ban all kinds of cheating but to be a little more tolerant since its we that decide what is legit & what is not (actually Sly not we lol)

but anyway we all have accepted the use of guides or boosting and i asked but got no response what if Sly had allowed ONE hack/save whatever?

would everyone be arguing with me or you would be trying to figure out which ONE to hack?

This is the most important comment of all. If you're boosting then you're still doing the task or tasks required for the trophies. If you're following a guide then you're still doing the things needed to beat the game and get any collectables required. If you're loading up an altered save or hacking the game then you aren't doing anything other than waiting for the trophies to pop. There is a huge difference.

if you are boosting kills for example in a multiplayer game no my friend you are not doing the task required as opposition is supposed to shoot back not stand there getting shot at, respawn and run back so he can be killed again

Edited August 24, 2012 by ShinYagami13

[R_e_m_y]

This is the most important comment of all. If you're boosting then you're still doing the task or tasks required for the trophies. If you're following a guide then you're still doing the things needed to beat the game and get any collectables required. If you're loading up an altered save or hacking the game then you aren't doing anything other than waiting for the trophies to pop. There is a huge difference.

Life ain't that black and white. If the trophy requires you to kill 5 enemies at the same time and you get your friend together and boost it then it really is no different than using someone else's save. You didn't have the skill to get the trophy legit. The main point of boosting is to save time or to get something done that you can't do legit. When you use hacked save you have the same goal. So really its not that different. One is the way to get the offline trophies and other online.

The biggest difference is that you can catch save game cheaters easier.

[Stevieboy]

if you are boosting kills for example in a multiplayer game no my friend you are not doing the task required as opposition is supposed to shoot back not stand there getting shot at, respawn and run back so he can be killed again

The point I'm making is you would still be killing them and therefore doing the task required. Whether they stand there and be killed or shoot back is immaterial.

[Sir_Bee]

no offence mate but you probably the only one thats confused

i have said it before i will say it again (3rd time i think)

i m not suggesting we ban all kinds of cheating but to be a little more tolerant since its we that decide what is legit & what is not (actually Sly not we lol)

but anyway we all have accepted the use of guides or boosting and i asked but got no response what if Sly had allowed ONE hack/save whatever?

would everyone be arguing with me or you would be trying to figure out which ONE to hack?

If that had of been his decision, I would have argued tooth and nail against it, because one hack is still one hack. If I lost that argument, I still would never have hacked a game because that is cheating.

Why should there be any tolerance? When Sly decides that hacking a game is cheating, why is cheating a little bit accepted? It is all still cheating. Sly can draw that line wherever he wants, he chose to draw it here, and he has the support of the forum community.

[Jigsaw]

This is the most important comment of all. If you're boosting then you're still doing the task or tasks required for the trophies. If you're following a guide then you're still doing the things needed to beat the game and get any collectables required. If you're loading up an altered save or hacking the game then you aren't doing anything other than waiting for the trophies to pop. There is a huge difference.

even then there are exceptions,look at demons or dark souls

boosting in these games usually means you go online and someone else with the platinum trophy drops all their rare/upgraded weapons,rings,sunlight medals,humanity or boss souls (to trade for spells/miracles)...so where did you do the work then?where is the difference between getting all the stuff for free by someone else or just using a savefile by someone else that has the same stuff on it

[ShinYagami13]

The point I'm making is you would still be killing them and therefore doing the task required. Whether they stand there and be killed or shoot back is immaterial.

i honestly was expecting a better answer from a grown man or to just admit my argument is right

anyway i ll try to respond to your "argument"

standing there to be killed takes 5 seconds, someone shooting back at you takes longer or if you suck at fps games forever since killing the x amount

of opponents would be impossible for you thus boosting=cheating

[R_e_m_y]

Why should there be any tolerance? When Sly decides that hacking a game is cheating, why is cheating a little bit accepted? It is all still cheating. Sly can draw that line wherever he wants, he chose to draw it here, and he has the support of the forum community.

The only reason I could give is that not everyone have hacked 1 game to gain advantage and get more trophies. Some did it out of curiosity, some got their account hacked etc. I personally don't care and I have written many letters to Sony that they would implement a feature to make it possible to remove trophies from your list. SOCOM would be first one to go and FIFA 09 and FIFA 10 would be removed as well as I can't get them 100% anymore. Stupid EA took its servers offline.

Edited August 24, 2012 by R_e_m_y

[Sir_Bee]

The only reason I could give is that not everyone have hacked 1 game to gain advantage and get more trophies. Some did it out of curiosity, some got their account hacked etc. I personally don't care.

But you should still be punished for breaking the rule. People don't like the criminal analogy, but it fits here. You wanted to try cocaine once, because you were curious. You get caught, and go to jail for possession. No judge is going to care that you aren't a hardcore drugy, and were just curious.

Why people break the rules is irrelevant in 99% of all situations. You broke the rules, these are the consequences, live with them.

even then there are exceptions,look at demons or dark souls

boosting in these games usually means you go online and someone else with the platinum trophy drops all their rare/upgraded weapons,rings,sunlight medals,humanity or boss souls (to trade for spells/miracles)...so where did you do the work then?where is the difference between getting all the stuff for free by someone else or just using a savefile by someone else that has the same stuff on it

I actually agree with this. I would consider this cheating just as much as using another save. The problem is that we cannot prove that in any way at this time. That does not mean that we shouldn't punish those who are cheating and we can prove it.

[ShinYagami13]

Why should there be any tolerance?

why? well god forgives, the law is elastic to first time offenders, people forgive

why you haven't done any mistakes in your life? you jesus?!

[ionstorm777]

"Is boosting cheating or not?" is a topic that pops up on ALL trophy forums on a regular basis. I have NEVER seen the two sides agree on anything.

It's a neverending discussion, which can't be ended.

Edit: Oh, and ShinYagami13 it's not a good idea to go into religion. That's just adding fuel to the fire in this thread....

Edited August 24, 2012 by ionstorm777

[Kyouko_Sakura]

Ok you boosting = cheating people here is a small question mainly because I myself am confused on boosting.

I play games online mostly with friends and family for player matches and trophies unlock in the course of those matches but these are just for fun but when I play ranked matches I am against randoms but refuse matches where they have a 0-1 bar connection, now am I "boosting" because I arrange these matches or are they normal/clean?

Also what if I arranged an 8 player lobby for Marvel Vs Capcom 3 to get the trophy but to also have a few matches since for the trophy all I need is a full 8 player lobby am I boosting if I do this stupid requirement?

Now let me see what is the difference here if I do any of that compared to someone who goes online with friends and just arranges to get trophies, I see no difference want to know why because I am having fun my way and random gamer B is having fun their way, besides try prove someone boosted it is impossible due to varying skill levels, time of the game's life it was done and all sorts of other factors as well as one's thoughts on what constitutes boosting.

Now using the Demon's Souls and Dark Souls thing it kind of would be cheating but some people only drop a few items to help those that are clearly struggling or drop just the gear that takes excessive walkthroughs/luck to obtain but doesn't mean they get an easy path to platinum thanks to all those bosses. Tough one for my sleepy mind to decide on...

The difference with all of the above compared to the hacking/cheating at least they played the game.

God forgives than why is there a Hell, if he forgives everyone there'd only be a Heaven besides not a believer so point?

Everyone makes mistakes and we all suffer the consequences for those mistakes, using hacks or another's save you suffer the consequences sound fair.

*Goes to sleep*

Edited August 24, 2012 by Kyouko_Sakura

[Sir_Bee]

why? well god forgives, the law is elastic to first time offenders, people forgive

why you haven't done any mistakes in your life? you jesus?!

First off, not religious, so I wont bring God into this.

I have made mistakes, but there is a difference between making a bad choice and ending up loosing your bicycle because you forgot where you put it, and choosing to cheat on something. Many Universities have a no tolerance policy on cheating, if you are caught you fail the class and are sometimes even expelled. Here, you just don't show up on the leader board with people who have never cheated.

"Is boosting cheating or not?" is a topic that pops up on ALL trophy forums on a regular basis. I have NEVER seen the two sides agree on anything.

It's a neverending discussion, which can't be ended.

I just find the last line amusing. It made me laugh a little. Not because I disagree, just because it is needlessly redundant

On a different note, I have a question about boosting. The Bling Brigade trophy in Wipeout HD. It is impossible to get without 'boosting'. If you were going to wait until you had 8 people all using the silver skins, you would never get the trophy. It is trophies like this that make me think that 'boosting' isn't really all that bad.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Sir_Bee

[ShinYagami13]

"Is boosting cheating or not?" is a topic that pops up on ALL trophy forums on a regular basis. I have NEVER seen the two sides agree on anything.

It's a neverending discussion, which can't be ended.

Edit: Oh, and ShinYagami13 it's not a good idea to go into religion. That's just adding fuel to the fire in this thread....

i wasnt i was only being sarcastic again

but the fact that even the law is elastic to first time offenders you cant deny

or that there are degrees in a crime

[R_e_m_y]

But you should still be punished for breaking the rule. People don't like the criminal analogy, but it fits here. You wanted to try cocaine once, because you were curious. You get caught, and go to jail for possession. No judge is going to care that you aren't a hardcore drugy, and were just curious.

Why people break the rules is irrelevant in 99% of all situations. You broke the rules, these are the consequences, live with them.

I'm a lawyer so I can argue against it. If today the law passed that kissing on the street is illegal you can't be punished for doing that last year. There have been no rules that using save, boosting, asking someone else to help you out, trading, buying or using whatever means is against the rules. But I don't support the idea either that you should be able to have 1 hacked game. I gave an idea that would be more reasonable a few pages back. But I also know that it will not be implemented.

[ionstorm777]

I just find the last line amusing. It made me laugh a little. Not because I disagree, just because it is needlessly redundant

Just re-read the sentence, and yeah, it is most definately reduntant. Forgive me, I'm Norwegian

[ShinYagami13]

First off, not religious, so I wont bring God into this.

I have made mistakes, but there is a difference between making a bad choice and ending up loosing your bicycle because you forgot where you put it, and choosing to cheat on something. Many Universities have a no tolerance policy on cheating, if you are caught you fail the class and are sometimes even expelled. Here, you just don't show up on the leader board with people who have never cheated.

I just find the last line amusing. It made me laugh a little. Not because I disagree, just because it is needlessly redundant

On a different note, I have a question about boosting. The Bling Brigade trophy in Wipeout HD. It is impossible to get without 'boosting'. If you were going to wait until you had 8 people all using the silver skins, you would never get the trophy. It is trophies like this that make me think that 'boosting' isn't really all that bad.

a bad choice is a bad choice

cheating is no different since i chose to use a save

as for boosting all boosting is cheating since you are not doing it the way you supposed to period

dont matter if the trophy has crazy requirements

then you should excuse me too for using the save

and please enough with the university, i finished it 13 years ago

[HipHecooblik]

This is a complete train wreck. I'm finally posting to break up this elementary mess.

Sly, I'll say a few things.

Firsly, I suggest closing this thread.

This is unprofessional. A professional admin or owner of something, when issuing something, will issue it...and that is that. We can compare this to a "press release"; just put the word out there and lock the thread. The decisions have been made and you don't need this extra pressure and stress.

There is mostly nothing of contribution to be said here, and now things are going very off-topic and people are throwing insults at each other.

The PlayStation Network community as a whole as far as anti-cheating is still in it's infancy.

Of course, Sony still is silent on the matter, while the only other on-topic entity, YourGamerCards, is too lax and of course the profiles are left intact to the unknowing eye.

You have to understand the position of power PSNProfiles is in to influence the future stance on cheating across the entire PSN community.

I want you to take a look at something. www.TrueAchievements.com

That is Xbox 360's main achievement stat site by the community.

And they have an "Investigations Team". So when cheaters are reported, it is routed to a member of that team. What I'm saying is, you do not have the manpower alone to handle the upcoming reports when you put in the manual reporting feature. You need to recruit at least a handful of trustworthy individuals to start managing this. Sly, your work on the site is impeccable, and one man alone is not enough to do all the coding, upgrading, etc plus cheater management.

TrueAchievements also is very strict when it comes to cheaters --- and that was influenced by community demand. Zero tolerance is the only way.

When a cheater is removed from T.A., their entire profile is branded as a cheater AND MOST IMPORTANTLY all of their stats and achievements are removed from the site.

When a cheater is removed from PSNProfiles currently, an unknowing individual will not even know for sure. Cheaters can still brag and link their card in sigs and have all their stats intact there as well as on their profile.

PSNProfiles, when someone is removed from the leaderboards, needs to have everythig removed on the profile. The profile will still exist, but no trophy lists will be shown, no level stats, etc.

There is also no need for a "dirty" leaderboard on PSNProfiles. This is admittance to giving in to cheater demands. Do not reason with cheaters. This lighthearted approach will not change anything. If things are strict, the attitude will eventually channel to Sony and they will start resetting cheaters as what happened with Xbox Live and Microsoft. The cheater community on PSN is shaking in their boots right now and again, the position of power PSNProfiles is in right now is incredible. Zero tolerance and things will definitely change very quickly on PSN.

Take a look at what a profile looks like on T.A. when a cheater is flagged/removed:

Here's a mock-up idea of what PSNProfiles should look like:

I’m up for negotiation, but at the minimum their trophy list and statistics cannot be shown. It ends here - the use of PSNProfiles as a cheater’s showoff method.

PSNProfiles for PSN has the means to be what TrueAchievements is to Xbox Live.

We have hackers coming in here out of the woodwork, some even seem to have been influencing Sly.

And others not contributing anything of worth.

I have various suggestions and such to contribute but I will make this post short.

I will at least summarize a few things --- what you have in place with auto-flagging is brilliant. This will evict a giant mass of cheaters alone. However, more games need to be added to this and you can not only take the community's word on this, since cheaters will twist words on what is a "legit" time.

This combined with a competent investigations team and manual reporting, PSNProfiles will be very legitimate.

Secondly, there is no need for a "dirty" leaderboard - PSNProfiles will continue to be a hacker hangout if so. This is all a project to evict cheaters from the site and ultimately improve the anti-cheating attitude across PSN.

Cheaters are using up a giant chunk of your bandwidth, what with linking their cheat card on cheat forum sigs, updating their cheat profile manually, and refreshing their profile many times a day for their delusional vanity. Cutting out the auto-updating on flagged profiles would be very helpful. Disabling the ability to be tracked/update alone would lift a giant weight from your shoulders, and most importantly the minds of the honest players.

I already see the signs of Sly giving into cheater demands (removing the cheater flag text and putting a color change on auto-flagged games) making everything more invisible. Just what they want. I have to step it to prevent these things.

The cheating “community” has been building up over time, and they have nobody telling them, “what you’re doing is wrong”. Xbox 360 has become a mess with a combination of gamesaving and profile editing. PS3 only has gamesaving, and it's only been done since this year (to a mass degree). The third party sites like these are still salvagable - the official profiles themselves, up to Sony, but there must be influence by the community for Sony to do anything.

PSNProfiles has that position of power.

I will work with you to streamline and simplify all of this. It's my calling to do so, after being existant on PSN since the beginning, seeing the trophy system fall. PM me.

Edited August 24, 2012 by HipHecooblik