(Discussion)should you get flagged for late syncs?

[Starcade_Legend]

1 minute ago, charxsetsuna said:

Ok let's get back to the meat of this conversation , let's ask a question.

 

"Is it ok to flag people even though they did nothing wrong?" 

Yes.

 

We as members have the option to report user’s trophies.  The CRT will review the report and give a flag, if they deem so.  If the user disputes, they can dispute the flag and ultimately the CRT will give a final judgement on that flag (forgive me for my ignorance on this topic).

*IF THERE ARE GUIDELINES SET BEFOREHAND*, whether those guidelines are popular with everyone/certain factions of gamers or not, it is ok for the CRT to flag (and keep flagged) a user.  If there are no guidelines set for an issue, then you have the ‘How can you say that’s fair?!‘ debate.  Which...the CRT will always look bad from that argument, at the end of the day.

 

So yes, it’s ‘ok’ if they get flagged for not doing anything wrong.

 

 

[charxsetsuna]

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

Exactly.

So with no written definition or parameters other than CFW usage being flaggable, as its currently written, how should "extremely improbable patterns" (not even necessarily related to late syncing) that match CFW tactics be handled, since everything is "possible" ? How should this problem be rectified, other than more verifiable leaderboards, such as making rules against late syncing, the most common side effect of CFW use?

 

How about you give me a different solution instead of just saying mine is horrible?

 

 

Listen to the community,look at the poll. The community are the people who use this website,listen to them.

 

Make a poll thread, multiple questions. How long is too long etc. Have the community vote on the new rules.

[Starcade_Legend]

2 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Listen to the community,look at the poll. The community are the people who use this website,listen to them.

 

Make a poll thread, multiple questions. How long is too long etc. Have the community vote on the new rules.

So you wouldn’t necessarily be in opposition to a set range where trophies synced can’t fall afterwards of, to be flagged?  ?

[B1rvine]

3 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Make a poll thread, multiple questions. How long is too long etc. Have the community vote on the new rules.

 

But not one person has answered how to measure CFW in this thread, and I don't think I missed any answers.

 

 

[panikooooos]

The way I see it, if you're complaining about this site's leaderboards it means you value this site's leaderboards. And the reason most people value this site's leaderboards is because it actually catches cheaters unlike competitor trophy hunting websites. So if the cheater removal team actually listened and became more lax, the leaderboards would become the same shit you see on the other websites and people would complain even more, lol. It's easy to criticize, but hard to actually propose an alternative solution. And I say this as someone who has a lot of problems with this site, leaderboards are not one of them. ?

[charxsetsuna]

6 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

But not one person has answered how to measure CFW in this thread, and I don't think I missed any answers.

 

 

Accept we cant catch everyone, we can't ever have a clean leaderboard.thats just a fact but people who are innocent shouldnt be dragged down in this completely fruitless mission.

 

No one has given a answer because there is no answer, but to take inspiration from a game I'm currently playing.

There are a group of people, the community hates them, believes they infect other people. In the end they become paranoid that everyone whose ever come close to them is now a part of that group when they are not.

Do you purge everyone caught up or do you just target the people confirmed to be a part of the evil group.

 

Replace evil group with cfw users and the innocents with people who slow sync that look like cfw.

(I'm aware this is a bit of a clumsy description but I feel it works)

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by charxsetsuna

[KimmysGotGame]

1 minute ago, B1rvine said:

 

But not one person has answered how to measure CFW in this thread, and I don't think I missed any answers.

 

 

You can judge it on the timestamps. If the timestamps are bad the list is bad. If the timestamps are good, it's possible they cheated, but it's more likely they didn't. Most people aren't cheaters and any cheater that doesn't want to get caught is going to be smart enough to make it look like they didn't cheat. I remember they used to just copy all the timestamps from other people because that would avoid getting caught. Now they're probably doing something else that's undetectable if they actually care about leaderboards but don't want to get caught.

 

It's a bad idea to punish your site's users who aren't cheaters in the small chance you can catch some bad actors. Bad decisions like that are only going to push your users away like what happened with the trophy tracking website that came before this one and caused this site's creator to make this site in the first place.

[PrimitiveRetro]

Hacking my last trophy before platinum is undetectable. 

So long suckas.

[Starcade_Legend]

4 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

But not one person has answered how to measure CFW in this thread, and I don't think I missed any answers.

 

 

CFW as in...timestamps changing?

 

Ban them from the leaderboards.  I thought that was already a ban-able offense.

 

As far as how to determine it?  As much as it’s been well documented on other threads on this site, isn’t there a web archive to indicate when someone originally had received trophies?

 

Regardless, leaving it to others to provide proof is going to (eventually) get ugly, with doctored pics/videos.

 

And as far as the trophy sync aspect goes...set a timeframe as a rule and keep moving forward.

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, PrimitiveRetro said:

Hacking my last trophy before platinum is undetectable. 

So long suckas.

See you in the dispute forums ?

[Amonares]

2 minutes ago, PrimitiveRetro said:

Hacking my last trophy before platinum is undetectable. 

So long suckas.

 

Don't forget to play this theme while you're doing it:

 

 

[B1rvine]

5 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Accept we cant catch everyone, we can't ever have a clean leaderboard. Thats just a fact but people who are innocent shouldn't be dragged down in this completely fruitless mission.

 

That's a statement of ignorance. You're probably right there's no completely foolproof system, but we can make it 99.999% clean with better leaderboard requirements. Being on the leaderboard isn't a right, it should be a privilege. And realistically, no matter how careful the system is, there may always be a mistake, even by the best referees in the world. Besides, as far as our CFW claims go, I'm willing to wager we're accurate 99.99%. So maybe 1 out of 10000 are incorrect, and that's usually due to having 1000 reports in queue and too much to handle.

[Mesopithecus]

9 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

I think within the current framework of the site and rules, Cheater Removers should follow the existing guidelines. If it's just one trophy, people shouldn't be getting flagged. (Sly said this somewhere, I'd link to it if I cared a little more.) In these late sync/CFW-similar scenarios, take them on a individual basis. If it's one game and questionable, sit on the report. If any of the more specific rules are clearly violated then a pattern has emerged. Flag it along with the other flagged items.

 

Trying to pinpoint a specific timeframe is going to be subjective no matter what is decided and now that the problem console (PS3) has been out for so long and many trophy hunters have multiple PS3s (I have three and I don't even consider myself a hunter), this scenario isn't going to be as easy as just setting a time frame 10+ years into people earning trophies on the PS3, and expect it to be really effective.

 

I think out of all the comments and suggestions seen, this is the most reasonable.  I feel like if there is a flag based solely on a late synced game, then the totality of the account should be looked at.  I'm sure there would be patterns that emerge that would allow differentiation between someone who just late synced a game, and someone who is using CFW.  

 

I wonder if maybe people are frustrated about this due to the way the dispute this is based on was handled yesterday - I mean the thread was initially closed without giving the disputer full opportunity to provide evidence, he was immediately accused of using CFW because he admitted on another site that someone modded Big Leagues on BO2 - I mean seriously, how many disputes on this site are because of someone joining a lobby where a modder unlocks trophies.  Not to mention that the CRT member who was dealing with the dispute, in that very same post that locked the thread called the disputer something along the lines of "no talent ass clown", it later got edited to remove that comment but still....

 

If I remember correctly, you were very outspoken when the dispute system was originally implemented.  I think it's why I appreciate your idea the most because you've taken the situation and looked at it in relatively a fair manner.

 

I agree with @charxsetsunathough where I would like to see what the other CRT members think about this topic as a whole.  And I'm actually curious about how many reports are as a result of late syncing as to be fair, I've not really seen a whole lot of disputes about that before.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by Mesopithecus

[Starcade_Legend]

18 minutes ago, PrimitiveRetro said:

Hacking my last trophy before platinum is undetectable. 

So long suckas.  
 

This guy is pure evil...?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Starcade_Legend

[danceswithsloths]

5 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

Besides, as far as our CFW claims go, I'm willing to wager we're accurate 99.99%. 

So, what you are saying is that the current case by case system is 99.99% accurate, so why do we need to make some blanket rule?

[B1rvine]

3 minutes ago, Mesopithecus said:

I mean the thread was initially closed without giving the disputer full opportunity to provide evidence, he was immediately accused of using CFW because he admitted on another site that someone modded Big Leagues on BO2.

 

I'll admit hore's report wasn't investigated thoroughly, and while that particular game was mistake to flag, it very closely matched multiple CFW tactics. His account shouldn't be on the leaderboards at all anyway, as he's used verified CFW in the past, which is grounds for complete removal from the website's leaderboards altogether.

 

[Mesopithecus]

15 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

I'll admit hore's report wasn't investigated thoroughly, and while that particular game was mistake to flag, it very closely matched multiple CFW tactics. His account shouldn't be on the leaderboards at all anyway, as he's used verified CFW in the past, which is grounds for complete removal from the website's leaderboards altogether.

 

 

I appreciate you being forward with that, and I respect that the flagging queue can get particularly long at times so it's easy for things to slip through/mistakes to happen occasionally

Edited May 27, 2020 by Mesopithecus

[ViperLance34]

10 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Besides, as far as our CFW claims go, I'm willing to wager we're accurate 99.99%. So maybe 1 out of 10000 are incorrect, and that's usually due to having 1000 reports in queue and too much to handle.

 

LOL, you should check out a few trophy hunting groups on Facebook. I've seen a lot of people there admit to hacking their trophies with strategically edited timestamps as to make their profiles look legit. A few of them are still on the leaderboards.

[charxsetsuna]

The CRT is a group of people no? This is a decision that needs to be made by the group is it not? Not a single person.

[DeepEyes7]

5 minutes ago, LupusLance34 said:

 

LOL, you should check out a few trophy hunting groups on Facebook. I've seen a lot of people there admit to hacking their trophies with strategically edited timestamps as to make their profiles look legit. A few of them are still on the leaderboards.

 

And this is the problem, a lot of people here claiming for their "rights" to play how they want are just wanting to cheat all they want just for the sake of it and then brag about how they BeAt ThE sYsTeM!... That is the people ruining the LB, not the CRT or the bloody rules...

 

[Lonemankane]

I would say no, as someone who is like myself who updates his trophy set on ps3 either at the end of the month or after earning a lot of trophies/ platted a game. As a risk of trophies being linked to your id can be slow and screw you over. I mean am lucky enough that I have not had that happen yet but still it is a risk that can happen to anyone and if your screwed over by something like that, it is basically like saying you earned all trophies but the plat never unlocks due to an error in the code of the game itself and so you must suffer for it but it is not your fault.

[Murderer__211]

I originally voted "No" on this poll but after reading the entire thread, I would change my answer to "Yes" if I could. Most of the examples I've seen provided are such fringe or edge cases that they're unlikely to show up that often. Even if they do, a flag is first reviewed by a member on the CRT before being approved. I think they, like most of us, can apply good logic to the situation and determine if the flag is legitimate CFW or is more likely to be a late sync based on the player's habits, how clean their profile is, etc. No system is perfect, and this could result in some false flags being approved, but that's what the dispute forums and 2 flag allowance is for. All in all, I think the CRT does a decent enough job between the few of them when they need to handle hundreds of reports and the system hasn't failed enough to warrant the blanket changes being suggested here.

[Lonemankane]

1 minute ago, Murderer__211 said:

I originally voted "No" on this poll but after reading the entire thread, I would change my answer to "Yes" if I could. Most of the examples I've seen provided are such fringe or edge cases that they're unlikely to show up that often. Even if they do, a flag is first reviewed by a member on the CRT before being approved. I think they, like most of us, can apply good logic to the situation and determine if the flag is legitimate CFW or is more likely to be a late sync based on the player's habits, how clean their profile is, etc. No system is perfect, and this could result in some false flags being approved, but that's what the dispute forums and 2 flag allowance is for. All in all, I think the CRT does a decent enough job between the few of them when they need to handle hundreds of reports and the system hasn't failed enough to warrant the blanket changes being suggested here.

what even is cfw? and crt? sorry if am slow on this but I find it hard to know what that is as I see it thrown about a lot but not know the real meaning behind it

Edited May 27, 2020 by KANERKB

[DeepEyes7]

1 minute ago, KANERKB said:

what even is cfw? and crt?

 

Custom Firmware and Cheater Removal Team

Edited May 27, 2020 by DeepEyes7

[TheBotyayeet]

Just now, KANERKB said:

what even is cfw? and crt? sorry if am slow on this but I find it hard to know what that is

Custom FirmWare

Cheater Removal Team