What's the deal with this game?

[BDKSimba]

Bravo to both simula67 & hunglikeamuppet for both making an awesome argument .

I have been following both side of the argument, & I have to say I found the back and forth banter quiet entertaining and very informative.

as amazing has it has been, I found it very impressive that maturity prevailed and the debate went on without any of the unnecessary pronouns.

but once again, bravo. and as informative as this debate has been, this is still not a game I would be interested in.

[simula67]

I really have no interest in boring the other forum users by getting into a tit-for-tat with you about motivation and whether or not it does indeed have little or more to do with a person's/character's actions, but in one final commentary with regard to this topic, I do believe that revenge has a role to play through Dante (the character in this specific storyline) in his quest to gain back Beatrice and absolve his own sins. I would have a difficult time considering that he would not take satisfaction in giving his foes their come-uppance for their role to play in keeping him from getting Beatrice back as he would wish her.

I suppose I can't refute that Dante would take some sort of primal satisfaction in destroying his foes (shit, I sure did), but I would challenge you whether it is revenge, or rather a sense of justice or recompense. Perhaps the difference between the two is the path you choose as the story develops. Consider how Dante treats the shades that he meets on his journey. Good Dante forgives their sins, perhaps deciding that these souls have served their punishment and deserve peace. Bad Dante further punishes souls which are already sentenced to an eternity in hell! (How could he even make it worse?!) A just Dante focuses his actions on those truly responsible for his plight, or those who stand in his way. A vengeful Dante takes his rage out on every soul he meets. Perhaps the line between the two is too narrow.

Also, I was pretty calm when I wrote that post. It's just the way I talk/type.

[hunglikeamuppet]

Hey Simula67,

Thanks for the reply.

Apologies I am only now replying, but for a long time I have been in the background, orchestrating a move back home to Texas, from the U.K.

I am literally just moved back to Texas a week ago, and this is the first time I have logged back into my PSNP account. (Sorry Simba - I had my eye on getting one of your earned post-up challenges to for a Membership, but needs first). Anyway - I just wanted to say that I did very much enjoy our exchanges back and forth, and hopefully that now I am back Stateside, I can hit these forums up a little more to indulge my hobby.

Like I said, thanks for the exchange; hit me up some time when you go onto PSN next, if you have a spare friend slot.

Hope you and your family have a good Christmas weekend, bud.

Bravo to both simula67 & hunglikeamuppet for both making an awesome argument .

I have been following both side of the argument, & I have to say I found the back and forth banter quiet entertaining and very informative.

as amazing has it has been, I found it very impressive that maturity prevailed and the debate went on without any of the unnecessary pronouns.

but once again, bravo. and as informative as this debate has been, this is still not a game I would be interested in.

Oh hey Simba - thanks for the compliment. Nah, I enjoyed the exchange with simula67 - again, I thought he had some excellent points, but just wanted to make sure he and other readers understood my own views on the game. Despite not having played it yet,

It was pretty cool that it didn't disintegrate into name-calling etc - but then, I expected this site to be populated by the more curteous, sensible and friendly gamer-types.

Thanks for the compliment once again, though.

[BDKSimba]

(Sorry Simba - I had my eye on getting one of your earned post-up challenges to for a Membership, but needs first).

there will be many a months to come. Welcome back home.

Oh hey Simba - thanks for the compliment. Nah, I enjoyed the exchange with simula67 - again, I thought he had some excellent points, but just wanted to make sure he and other readers understood my own views on the game. Despite not having played it yet,

It was pretty cool that it didn't disintegrate into name-calling etc - but then, I expected this site to be populated by the more curteous, sensible and friendly gamer-types.

Thanks for the compliment once again, though.

maturity can sometimes be greatly underestimated. but can open door to great friendships.

[Lil_Mermaid_Girl]

I thought this game was so-so. It was fine and all but nothing spectacular. I didn't like killing demon babies (why were there even demon babies, what kind of sin could a baby do to get into hell really??)

But my main gripe was in the beginning where Dante fights the devil or something. I can't even remember how it went but I remember thinking it was ridiculous that Dante could be stabbed in the back by a regular soldier then he kills the devil (or death or whatever) immedietly after.

[Wade_VC]

I picked up the Devine Edition the other day, and have played it for about 2 hours. Not long enough to give a complete opinion, but from what I have played of this game so far, I am finding it quite fun.

I have never played GoW to compare it to (as many seem to see parallels between the two), but to me it has kind of a Darksiders feel to it.

I am finding the graphics very good, the sound FX very decent, and the storyline is also good. The voice acting isn't the greatest, but so far I am enjoying the game and once I finish my first play-through I will give my overall opinion of this game.

[Wandererster]

I thought this game was so-so. It was fine and all but nothing spectacular. I didn't like killing demon babies (why were there even demon babies, what kind of sin could a baby do to get into hell really??)

But my main gripe was in the beginning where Dante fights the devil or something. I can't even remember how it went but I remember thinking it was ridiculous that Dante could be stabbed in the back by a regular soldier then he kills the devil (or death or whatever) immedietly after.

Didn't Demon souls have those as well except you can't kill them?

[Lady Lilith]

Wait...what? Dante doesn't fight the devil until the end of the game. Are you talking about Charon, the boat guy?

[Stevieboy]

Wait...what? Dante doesn't fight the devil until the end of the game. Are you talking about Charon, the boat guy?

Actually, at the beginning of the game he fights....

Death. It's where he acquires the scythe.

[Lady Lilith]

Hm. I must have forgotten. I haven't played the game for like, a year.

[AnRoDr]

It's price on PSN dropped again so I finally decided to purchase it and I wish I had done so earlier, great game! Fluid controls, really fun gameplay en superb setting. Should you have doubts in picking this up then set them aside and buy the game, you'll enjoy it 

[BrianJeffery]

That being said you have to remember one thing, Kratos is the flattest single note character ever made. He... yells, and then... bashes something and... yells again, which most adolescent males think is cool. As a result, Kratos unfortunately became a popular, dare I say, iconic video game character. Dante, on the other hand, is a character that spoke, and learned, and had a bit of depth... not a good combination for the previously mentioned demographic.

Okay, that may have true for the second game, but the prequels, GoW3, and even the first game he does show a wide range of emotions and depth.

That being said you have to remember one thing, Kratos is the flattest single note character ever made. He... yells, and then... bashes something and... yells again, which most adolescent males think is cool. As a result, Kratos unfortunately became a popular, dare I say, iconic video game character. Dante, on the other hand, is a character that spoke, and learned, and had a bit of depth... not a good combination for the previously mentioned demographic.

Okay, that may have true for the second game, but the prequels, GoW3, and even the first game he does show a wide range of emotions and depth.

[Dr_WPJTPCSPCDM]

First off apologies for reviving a really old thread, I've not played this or GoW yet and the comments here means I'll probably try this one out first so I don't have the comparisons. It sounds like I should enjoy them both but likely find GoW more frustrating/challenging. Anyway I have a (potential) answer to this:

 

(why were there even demon babies, what kind of sin could a baby do to get into hell really??)
 

 

According to a book I read called 'On the Pale Horse' by Piers Anthony (part of a series called the Incarnations of immortality, this one deals with a new person adjusting to the role of Death). Newly born babies, while not committing any sins themselves, normally have completely balanced souls because of the idea of 'original sin'. Adam and Eve ate the apple and that sin is taken out on all of us, as a result you can't live a neutral life and get to heaven, you have to 'work off' the original sin by committing acts of good. At the end of a person's life all the good and bad in a person's soul is added up and sent to either heaven, hell or purgatory. However babies can also (allegedly) have sin if they were either conceived during rape or killed the mother in child birth. The new Death argues against this position stating that they shouldn't have the sin of the father or be held responsible for things they had no control over. I'm not sure which of the hundreds of branches of Christianity that particular piece of theology comes from, but it is likely the source of babies in hell in this.

[antithesis]

I can't believe I'm arguing about this with someone who hasn't played the game, but anyways... at the outset of the story, there is no revenge. Beatrice made a deal with the devil that Dante would be faithful to her during the Crusades. He wasn't, so the devil took her. Dante is motivated by guilt over his adulterous actions, as evidenced by him stitching a cross with images of his sins to his chest. Dante is motivated by love for Beatrice, because she was faithful and he was not. To Dante, he is the one who belongs in hell, not her. Finally, Dante is motivated by redemption - that by tearing through hell destroying everything will somehow wash away his sins and gain forgiveness.

Answer me this: is Dante's ultimate goal to get Beatrice back, or to destroy Lucifer? The answer is the former, although he has to destroy Lucifer to accomplish his goal.

A character's motivation may have little to do with the actions he chooses. Just because a character is "tearing them to shreds" doesn't mean that his or her motivation is revenge. Just because a character is motivated by love doesn't mean he has to "smother his foes with kindness and love." Did I quote you on all that correctly? Just checking.

 

 ^ This guy gets it. Nailed it on the head.

I really have no interest in boring the other forum users by getting into a tit-for-tat with you about motivation and whether or not it does indeed have little or more to do with a person's/character's actions, but in one final commentary with regard to this topic, I do believe that revenge has a role to play through Dante (the character in this specific storyline) in his quest to gain back Beatrice and absolve his own sins. I would have a difficult time considering that he would not take satisfaction in giving his foes their come-uppance for their role to play in keeping him from getting Beatrice back as he would wish her.

Again, in my opinion, that his motivations are chiefly rooted in rescuing her from her own personal tragedy whilst absolving and redeeming himself for his own recognized sins are apparent to me - clear as day - but I am firmly of the view that his journey through pain, through Hell is made possible also by a motivation to get his back on those dark forces that are responsible for her corruption, and his own. And he achieves this success through the extreme nature of the punishments he takes out on his foes. These are not just a gunshot here and there - the weapon of choice is Death's own scythe (gotta admire the symbolism there), and it is used to full force in the darker path the developer has made available to play through.

 

^ This guy doesn't. Having not played the game, that's understandable, but also makes muppet more than a little clueless.

 

Who exactly was Dante seeking revenge on? HE is responsible for Beatrice's fate. HE has tasked himself with saving her soul and redeeming himself and everyone else he condemned in the process. Is he seeking revenge on HIMSELF? Nup. That's just plain dumb. There's not a shred of vengeance in the tale - every demon who opposes him simply blocks his path to Beatrice and must be vanquished to achieve his goal.

 

I realise it's years after the debate, but I thought I'd toss my $0.02 in for what it's worth. Hopefully muppet has subsequently played and completed the game and is better informed of the context of Dante's motivation.

Edited February 28, 2014 by ant1th3s1s

[STRANGEgenius]

i LOVED this game. Hopefully they make a sequel.

 

Has anyone watched the film for it?

[DrBloodmoney]

I liked the gameplay more than GoW, but the main charater is such a wet blanket thwt I ended up skipping all the cutscenes after the first few.

Combat was endearingly dumb and fun, and the design and art of the circles of hell were very good, if a little bit "sketch in the back of a high-school age, jean jacket-wearing, Lamb of God fans Textbook"

[LegendExeter]

On 1/13/2012 at 1:57 AM, Lil_Mermaid_Girl said:

I thought this game was so-so. It was fine and all but nothing spectacular. I didn't like killing demon babies (why were there even demon babies, what kind of sin could a baby do to get into hell really??)

But my main gripe was in the beginning where Dante fights the devil or something. I can't even remember how it went but I remember thinking it was ridiculous that Dante could be stabbed in the back by a regular soldier then he kills the devil (or death or whatever) immedietly after.

 

On 2/9/2014 at 4:18 AM, Dr_WPJTPCSPCDM said:

According to a book I read called 'On the Pale Horse' by Piers Anthony (part of a series called the Incarnations of immortality, this one deals with a new person adjusting to the role of Death). Newly born babies, while not committing any sins themselves, normally have completely balanced souls because of the idea of 'original sin'. Adam and Eve ate the apple and that sin is taken out on all of us, as a result you can't live a neutral life and get to heaven, you have to 'work off' the original sin by committing acts of good. At the end of a person's life all the good and bad in a person's soul is added up and sent to either heaven, hell or purgatory. However babies can also (allegedly) have sin if they were either conceived during rape or killed the mother in child birth. The new Death argues against this position stating that they shouldn't have the sin of the father or be held responsible for things they had no control over. I'm not sure which of the hundreds of branches of Christianity that particular piece of theology comes from, but it is likely the source of babies in hell in this.

 

While the babies in hell might be something shocking, I think the game really went for that in trying to show exactly how gruesome or horrible things could be, even if makes people sick or uncomfortable.  

 

Interesting response by the Dr_WP, I actually presumed that they were unbaptized babies.  However there is a cutscene I remember where Dante is talking to the scribe(Virgil?) and I think it is explained to him why the babies are there.  I can't remember been years since I went through the main story.

 

On 2/28/2014 at 7:22 AM, STRANGEgenius said:

i LOVED this game. Hopefully they make a sequel.

 

Has anyone watched the film for it?

 

I have watched the Animated Movie, and it was pretty awesome.

On 11/20/2011 at 6:12 PM, hunglikeamuppet said:

Love your post.

But, who's "arguing" with you? I put down my opinions thru a post, you responded and challenged them, I retorted, and here you have replied again as well. It was my original opnion I posted - these boards are for contributing to discussions - it's not like I specifically wrote it up especially to wind you up, you know. Calm down, dude.

Secondly, you do realize there are videos on the likes of youtube where you can view the storyline via cutscene only - you don't necessariy have to play the game itself to know the storyline? Rightee-o, just checking.

And thirdly, yes, as difficult as you may find it to believe, I do accept and agree with the base of your reponse here. I KNOW the storyline by now. And I am quite familiar with the concept of character study and its use in a variety of stories - from classical literature to more modern works of prose, and am familiar with Dante's original work.

I really have no interest in boring the other forum users by getting into a tit-for-tat with you about motivation and whether or not it does indeed have little or more to do with a person's/character's actions, but in one final commentary with regard to this topic, I do believe that revenge has a role to play through Dante (the character in this specific storyline) in his quest to gain back Beatrice and absolve his own sins. I would have a difficult time considering that he would not take satisfaction in giving his foes their come-uppance for their role to play in keeping him from getting Beatrice back as he would wish her.

Again, in my opinion, that his motivations are chiefly rooted in rescuing her from her own personal tragedy whilst absolving and redeeming himself for his own recognized sins are apparent to me - clear as day - but I am firmly of the view that his journey through pain, through Hell is made possible also by a motivation to get his back on those dark forces that are responsible for her corruption, and his own. And he achieves this success through the extreme nature of the punishments he takes out on his foes. These are not just a gunshot here and there - the weapon of choice is Death's own scythe (gotta admire the symbolism there), and it is used to full force in the darker path the developer has made available to play through.

Dante is after all, a tragic hero. As such, he is an imperfect hero. And just because the game guide or the cut scenes may not spell out the word 'revenege' as a driving factor in this character's actions or motivations, the fact is the game is based on taking on the very forces of darkness - none other than those of Hell and its masters on their own turf and subjecting them to painful ends as terrible (or in some cases, worse) than they have inflicted on others, in order to succeed in and win the game.

Now then, there again is my opinion. Whether or not you agree with it, it's all good - believe me, I am not losing sleep over it.

But thanks for engaging me in discussion; it was certainly more amusing to respond to, compared to the usually unimaginative or trophy-obsessive threads which normally appeared on the other site.

Bye now.

 

The two parts I bolded are what I am addressing.  Taking satisfaction in killing your opponents or foes, does not make the motivation revenge.

 

Dante is responsible for Beatrice's corruption, therefore if revenge was his motivation he would have to take revenge on himself.  The redemption of Beatrice, because she doesn't belong in hell is Dante's motivation, and Dante's sin that put her there.