Main game + DLC trophies not seperate

[Zongorillacska]

https://psnprofiles.com/game-leaderboard/538-Gundemonium-Recollection?c=&p=113

 

The leaderboard entries match the number of owners, and they have 0%. Anything else you need?

[CyrisTM1]

damn i got 463 UR trophies  now it used to be 297 lol

Edited March 3, 2014 by PRTM_CLUESCROL

[Zongorillacska]

damn i got 463 UR trophies  now it used to be 297 lol

Only until it is back to DLC tracking, lol

 

EDIT: ^This is a good example how much this matters. Those pinball trophies are all insanely hard and most of them aren't even ultra rares with this DLC tracking. See what I mean?

Edited March 3, 2014 by Zongorillacska

[Loki-_--___--_-I]

Those pinball trophies are all insanely hard and most of them aren't even ultra rares with this DLC tracking. See what I mean?

 

It's called 'rarity' not 'hardness'. Although there certainly is a correlation between the two it is not the same. Of course yor are right, that the system to use the number of people who have at least one trophy in the DLC is not perfect but neither is it correct to take all game owners. It just produces nicer numbers. And although those pinball DLC trophies might be extremely hard (I've never played any pinball game on any console), I don't think there are that many people who buy the DLC but don't get any trophies. Why would you buy a DLC when you have already troubles with the base game and thus you can't expect to get very far in the DLC either?

[Doom]

https://psnprofiles.com/game-leaderboard/538-Gundemonium-Recollection?c=&p=113

 

The leaderboard entries match the number of owners, and they have 0%. Anything else you need?

Ah! I see.

Didn't think of that because I never really use that kind of page.

 

To have a consistent system we should not account for 0% trophy lists too

[DrBloodmoney]

It's called 'rarity' not 'hardness'. Although there certainly is a correlation between the two it is not the same. Of course yor are right, that the system to use the number of people who have at least one trophy in the DLC is not perfect but neither is it correct to take all game owners. It just produces nicer numbers. And although those pinball DLC trophies might be extremely hard (I've never played any pinball game on any console), I don't think there are that many people who buy the DLC but don't get any trophies. Why would you buy a DLC when you have already troubles with the base game and thus you can't expect to get very far in the DLC either?

Because pinball games release new tables as dlc. The entire point of the game is playing a variety of tables - otherwise there is no point in getting the game, you could just buy an actual pinball table. Just because someone hasn't got all the trophies from one table does not mean they want to or should play the same table over and over until they are totally sick of it.

[Zongorillacska]

Ah! I see.

Didn't think of that because I never really use that kind of page.

 

To have a consistent system we should not account for 0% trophy lists too

That would be same unnatural as this DLC rarity tracking, it's just completely dumb. This works very well for easy games because, there's no way in hell people who buy it won't get at least 1 trophy. But I'm concerned about actual hard games where all of the trophies are hard. Why the hell shouldn't 0% be counted then? This is the reason why this DLC rarity is dumb. Look at my first reply in this topic, about NG3 and Capcom Cabinet. Those rarities are completely abnormal because all of the trophies in the DLC are hard. How can you neglect 0%'s there then?

 

 

It's called 'rarity' not 'hardness'. Although there certainly is a correlation between the two it is not the same. Of course yor are right, that the system to use the number of people who have at least one trophy in the DLC is not perfect but neither is it correct to take all game owners. It just produces nicer numbers. And although those pinball DLC trophies might be extremely hard (I've never played any pinball game on any console), I don't think there are that many people who buy the DLC but don't get any trophies. Why would you buy a DLC when you have already troubles with the base game and thus you can't expect to get very far in the DLC either?

 

Neither system is perfect, yep. But what do you say, what's closer to reality: Capcom Cabinet's Gunsmoke DLC's Wingate Whacker being on 66% or on 0.10%? It is one of the hardest trophies on PSN and with the DLC tracking here, it is 66% rare. Same thing on Ninja Gaiden 3. Legendary Ninja is the hardest hack'n'slash trophy and it's 23%. The Ultimate Ninja pack was even FREE in the first week, but the game owners here don't reflect that because it's based on 1+ DLC trophy owners, not real DLC owners. It's unfair.

 

It might treat some of the easy, unpopular DLC trophies well, by making them not ultra rares with this system, but this completely fucks the reputation of the hard DLC trophies, that some people worked a lot for. With this system, there's basicly no point going for DLC trophies as ninety percent of them are in the "common" category. Is that what you all want?

Edited March 3, 2014 by Zongorillacska

[weeztha]

The Hoff Character Add-On
1 of 1 Trophies 0
Owners

 

Gettin’ Hoff
Use Tuxedo Hoff to get 69 million in any PAINdemonium Mode 14^th Nov 2011
11:07:11 PM 1.29%
Ultra Rare

 

 

DLC Trophy Pack 1

Character Add-On
2 of 2 Trophies 0
Owners

King of PAIN
Get all Trophies in Downtown plus Trill and Grenade-A-Maid 5^th Aug 2012
1:58:44 PM 0.17%
Ultra Rare Trill
Get PAINful Bullseye Trophy with Scurv Dogg or Hung Lo 5^th Aug 2012
1:57:29 PM 1.28%
Ultra Rare

 

 

Female Character Add-On
2 of 2 Trophies 0Grenade-A-Maid
Get Exploded 200 times in Downtown Fun With Explosives (single or multiplayer) playing any female character 27^th Mar 2012
9:29:54 PM 6.76%
Very Rare Glass Lass
Break 500 panes of glass with any female launchable in Mime Toss 27^th Mar 2012
4:29:16 PM 3.11%
Ultra Rare

 

 

I feel there is still an issue with dlc's having 1 or 2 trophies. It throws off the ture rarity of the trophy. Take the example above the "gettin' Hoff" trophy is 1.29% rare and now it will be 100% common because of the way the site tracks dlc's. Thats not accurate at all and what about the other dlc pack with KING of PAIN trophy? It says "Get all Trophies in Downtown plus Trill and Grenade-A-Maid" now Trill and Grenade-A-Maid are in two seprate dlc's, which is confusing for some people and STILL NOT going to be accurate on trophy rarity.

Im fine with dlc's being seprated from the main game but in some cases like PAIN they should be left alone because of the way the dlc's tie into the main game and I dont like the rarity based on "owners of the dlc"

 

Sorry my copy and paste skillzzzz blow...

Edited March 3, 2014 by weeztha

[Doom]

Neither system is perfect, yep. But what do you say, what's closer to reality: Capcom Cabinet's Gunsmoke DLC's Wingate Whacker being on 66% or on 0.10%? It is one of the hardest trophies on PSN and with the DLC tracking here, it is 66% rare. Same thing on Ninja Gaiden 3. Legendary Ninja is the hardest hack'n'slash trophy and it's 23%. The Ultimate Ninja pack was even FREE in the first week, but the game owners here don't reflect that because it's based on 1+ DLC trophy owners, not real DLC owners. It's unfair.

 

It might treat some of the easy, unpopular DLC trophies well, by making them not ultra rares with this system, but this completely fucks the reputation of the hard DLC trophies, that some people worked a lot for. With this system, there's basicly no point going for DLC trophies as ninety percent of them are in the "common" category. Is that what you all want?

In my opinion the system based on "at least 1 earned trophy" is more realistic than "everyone with the base game" because most of the people who buy DLCs are more commonly trophy hunters (especially on a site like this), and it's more believable that this kind of player would be able to get said trophies.

The vast majority of people who have the game don't give a f*ck about DLCs and most commonly sell their games after finishing them 1-2 times or getting the platinum. Even most trophy hunters wouldn't go for DLCs.

 

And I always thought that going for DLCs was to get 100% in that game. Not to get ultra rare trophies just because a handful of players really got said DLCs.

Edited March 3, 2014 by DocDoomII

[Zongorillacska]

In my opinion the system based on "at least 1 earned trophy" is more realistic than "everyone with the base game" because most of the people who buy DLCs are more commonly trophy hunters (especially on a site like this), and it's more believable that this kind of player would be able to get said trophies.

The vast majority of people who have the game don't give a f*ck about DLCs and most commonly sell their games after finishing them 1-2 times or getting the platinum. Even most trophy hunters wouldn't go for DLCs.

This still doesn't explain anything when ALL of the DLC pack's trophies are hard. Here, a hard trophy will be 100% rare (I have no words for that stupidity) and brutal hard ones will be 40-50% rare. See Capcom Cabinet or Pain, I'm saying this the trillionth time now. How much more can I explain? It's not "DLC OWNERS" when tracking people with at least 1 trophy. 

 

This system would be only possible to implement if the download list of the users could be tracked, but they CAN'T. And a half-working system that is good for the easy DLC's but not for the hard DLC's, is a no-go for me.

[Shana Alter]

My apologies if I word this poorly but the rarity should be based on the base game for the sole reason that it is part of the game if people don't go for those trophies that is their problem nobody else's and besides it does reflect truthfully as those trophies are rare in that game which they are as not many people have earned them, isn't that what rarity is?

 

It has nothing to do with difficulty but statistically speaking the trophies are rare and that is an undeniable fact and for those saying why not just make all users used for each game as in the 1,000,000+ on each game... that isn't the same thing the rarity people are pointing out is the rarity of said trophy being unlocked in said game not the whole of PSN as that would be a whole different statistic.

 

I couldn't care less about what my trophy rarity is as I just get what I enjoy but for those who went that extra mile in those games they should be rewarded the true rarity in that game, I'd say the same thing about including 0% games into a person's statistics as games like White Knight Chronicles or Star Ocean take notorious amounts of time to unlock trophies so if the 0% games aren't counted then it makes no sense either.

 

Just my opinion, had a bit of trouble with the wording but hope it makes sense.

[Zongorillacska]

My apologies if I word this poorly but the rarity should be based on the base game for the sole reason that it is part of the game if people don't go for those trophies that is their problem nobody else's and besides it does reflect truthfully as those trophies are rare in that game which they are as not many people have earned them, isn't that what rarity is?

 

It has nothing to do with difficulty but statistically speaking the trophies are rare and that is an undeniable fact and for those saying why not just make all users used for each game as in the 1,000,000+ on each game... that isn't the same thing the rarity people are pointing out is the rarity of said trophy being unlocked in said game not the whole of PSN as that would be a whole different statistic.

 

I couldn't care less about what my trophy rarity is as I just get what I enjoy but for those who went that extra mile in those games they should be rewarded the true rarity in that game, I'd say the same thing about including 0% games into a person's statistics as games like White Knight Chronicles or Star Ocean take notorious amounts of time to unlock trophies so if the 0% games aren't counted then it makes no sense either.

 

Just my opinion, had a bit of trouble with the wording but hope it makes sense.

Thank you. Finally someone who sees my point...

[Doom]

Well, considering you have a hard time finding someone who shares your point of view, it could be that the majority actually prefer the new system?

[AkodoRyu]

Not sure why it is even a discussion.

 

Underestimating trophy rarity by (more often than not) few % is way better solution, than overestimating it by 90% (which is result of using game's owners as base to counting rarity - usual DLC attachment rate is up to 10%, there are exceptions, but that's the data publishers quote from time to time and it's consistent with trophy owners numbers on site), so if we were to take game owners as base, trophies with actual rarity of 90-100% will end up being in the 9-10% range.

 

Sure, both methods are flawed, but one is obviously significantly more so, than the other.

[Loki-_--___--_-I]

But what do you say, what's closer to reality: Capcom Cabinet's Gunsmoke DLC's Wingate Whacker being on 66% or on 0.10%? It is one of the hardest trophies on PSN and with the DLC tracking here, it is 66% rare.

 

Honestly, I don't have a clue. Neither do I know the game at all, nor do I have any numbers about sold copies and/or DLCs. Given the fact that your trophy collection is quite impressive (even with messed up rarities), I take your word that it is hard. But is the DLC that much harder than the base game? I will assume that it isn't, so given that I would think that many of those who played the base game were already frustrated and didn't buy the DLC. I'd guess 66% is probably just as far from the truth as 0.1% is. If I had a game which is frustratingly hard and find myself not getting most of the trophies, I certainly wouldn't buy the DLC.

 

To make a long story short, I guess none of us on this site knows exact download numbers for any DLC. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) So if you see the rarity of your trophies as a kind of reward or credit for your hard earned trophies you basically have the choice between getting too much or too little credit. Both methods are flawed. But given the fact that most DLCs have some kind of "Thanks for buying the DLC" trophy that is pretty easy to get, I would say that taking all people that have at least one trophy is more over all DLCs of all games than taking all game owners accurate. Although of course there are examples where your method might be better.

[weeztha]

Honestly, I don't have a clue. Neither do I know the game at all, nor do I have any numbers about sold copies and/or DLCs. Given the fact that your trophy collection is quite impressive (even with messed up rarities), I take your word that it is hard. But is the DLC that much harder than the base game? I will assume that it isn't, so given that I would think that many of those who played the base game were already frustrated and didn't buy the DLC. I'd guess 66% is probably just as far from the truth as 0.1% is. If I had a game which is frustratingly hard and find myself not getting most of the trophies, I certainly wouldn't buy the DLC. To make a long story short, I guess none of us on this site knows exact download numbers for any DLC. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) So if you see the rarity of your trophies as a kind of reward or credit for your hard earned trophies you basically have the choice between getting too much or too little credit. Both methods are flawed. But given the fact that most DLCs have some kind of "Thanks for buying the DLC" trophy that is pretty easy to get, I would say that taking all people that have at least one trophy is more over all DLCs of all games than taking all game owners accurate. Although of course there are examples where your method might be better.

So what happens when there is only 1 trophy in a dlc pack? Like hyperballoid and PAIN both trophies are very hard to get but now it will be 100% common even though it was just at 1.29%

There needs to be an exception for the few games like this...

[Doom]

So what happens when there is only 1 trophy in a dlc pack? Like hyperballoid and PAIN both trophies are very hard to get but now it will be 100% common even though it was just at 1.29%

There needs to be an exception for the few games like this...

Well, it IS a flaw, but you can still see how many did get the trophy. If only 5 of them got it, and other DLCs have, say, 1000 owners you can still guess something out of it.

Sure, if you have a rarity fetish it can be quite distressing.

[DrBloodmoney]

As an exmple of why the main game oners should be used insead of dlc owners (aside from the obvious reason that dlc is part of the game):

Dishonored.

The main game is prob a 3/10 difficulty to platinum, and dlc packs 2 and 3 are about the same.

DLC pack 1 ( the Dunwall City Trials) are easily a 9/10, and EVERY trophy in the pack is more difficult than anything in the main game.

At the moment, (with main game owners used) the trophy 'By My Hands Alone' is shown as a rarity of around 0.26%. This pretty much correctly represents the difficulty, and lets trophy hunters see what they are in for.

Before, it was at 44% (ish - from memory) as the trials trophies were difficult enough that only serious trophy hunters ever got any of them, so the pool of 'owners' was low as hell.

This is a notoriously difficult trophy to get (trust me, I nearly broke my controller a few times ) and it being more 'common' than most of the main game trophies is a joke

Neither system is perfect, but one system skews towards rewarding hunters for completing difficult dlc and the other skews towards marginalising thier efforts.

I think I know which inaccuracy I prefer....

[Doom]

Well, to be honest, the first trophy in that DLC is ridiculously easy. So anyone could get it in... say... 30 minutes top, let's say an hour without a guide.

[CorgiBootyy]

I see some concern regarding overestimating the difficulty of a DLC trophy with a low rarity, but that shouldn't be a concern with countless trophy guides and user input on it from the average gamer. It should be no debate over finding the "difficulty" of a trophy when you can find the answer all over the web, %rarity is not a rating of difficulty, in many cases it can be a good indicator, yes. But, there are many trophies that are piss easy, for example My Kung Fu is Stronger is piss eady, but is less than 1% because it takes a couple hundred hours to earn. In regards to DLC rarity, I think the rarity based on "game owners", gives an accurate representation of the gamers that took the time, effort, and money to buy and complete the DLC. Noted even more so for the extra mile when the trophy has a difficulty rating at 9 or 10 out of 10. Such as all the Capcom Arcade Cabinet DLC which is all at 50%+ with the "DLC owners" system for a trophy that could take dozens of hours of frusturation and be the hardest trophy you've ever earned and bam 70% common.

TL;DR DLC rarity is not a supposedly accurate rating of difficulty, regardless of the system. DLC rarity is a strong and accurate reward that shows itself for those that put inthe extra time, money and effort to complete the game to it's fullest when it is based on "game owners".

TL;DRA Go read it.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Blazikiller

[Robin]

Well, to be honest, the first trophy in that DLC is ridiculously easy. So anyone could get it in... say... 30 minutes top, let's say an hour without a guide.

 

It doesn't mean everyone Will Bother with it.

[DrBloodmoney]

Well, to be honest, the first trophy in that DLC is ridiculously easy. So anyone could get it in... say... 30 minutes top, let's say an hour without a guide.

Not a casual player. Only someone specifically going for the trophies would get that that quickly, if ever (some are so well hidden that casuals would never come across them)

The truth was in the numbers before the change to the site - if 44% of the people who got that first trophy also got the notorious By My Hand Only, then obvoiusly it is only hardcore trophy hunters being represented, and that should not be the way rarity is calculated.

[Doom]

It doesn't mean everyone Will Bother with it.

Why would they even buy it.

[Robin]

Various Reasons why they might not Have a Certain Trophy in a DLC.

Some may just not have liked it after Buying it, some may have just Gotten it & never even Played it, Etc.

 

Just because someone doesn't have a certain Trophy, it doesn't mean they do not own the DLC.

 

Just goes to Show that separate DLC Trophy Rarity is is much more inaccurate than the other Method.

[AkodoRyu]

It doesn't mean everyone Will Bother with it.

 

 

So why even consider them an owner? As far as I'm concerned, 0% of base games shouldn't be considered owner as well - we would avoid most of this discussion than.

 

Only situation, in which system is strongly misrepresenting, is with DLC /w single trophy and DLC /w whole list being extremely difficult. Those are very big minority, and yes, we are underestimating their rarity. But I still prefer to underestimate the rarity of 5 trophies, than overestimate few hundreds in the same pool.

 

My Ultra Rare list is now filled with trophies from Metro DLCs, that are all very easy, but since game was quite popular and in PS+, they are mostly < 1%. And there is ~40-80 of those in my list of 7k trophies - that situation completely undermines whole concept of rarity, because spending some money and an hour on DLC for PS+ game is "worth" more than platinum in NGS2.

Edited March 3, 2014 by AkodoRyu