Trophy Rarity Question

[MMDE]

Just now, Satoshi Ookami said:

I believe I said many times that I support Mango's idea of creating different tiers for DLC trophies.

 

Yeah, this is what I see as the more theoretically best solution, but is it practical?

[Satoshi Ookami]

Just now, MMDE said:

 

Yeah, this is what I see as the more theoretically best solution, but is it practical?

Even if it's not, it's still better than what we have now, that's what I believe.

[Stardroid]

Well, whatever the case, I too am not a fan of how it is now. For Velocity X2, I bought the Dual Pack DLC. People are saying mission 50 of the main game was difficult, but five out of ten missions from the DLC were harder than the main game. The platinum rarity is around 1.50%. Perfecting all the DLC levels earns you a 45% golden trophy. I can understand why it's the case, but instinctively, it doesn't seem correct. It's a shame that every thread seems to be closed though with no real closure. I don't understand why there is no poll about this.

[madbuk]

12 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

The problem is just that in some cases it's likely many people got and have played a DLC without earning a trophy from it. This is problematic, because then we don't know if they have played it or not. I do however not see this as a good reason to say people have played the DLC just because they've played the main game, that'd just be making up numbers. If we did count then, we'd radically change what the rarity % stand for, and it'd likely be very inconsistent.

 

DLC trophies should in most cases be rather common, because those who buy it invest even more into the game, and will therefore be way more likely to get the trophies too. You usually don't start out with the DLCs, it's something you do at the end or something, so to play it, you'd already likely be one of those who is going to 100% the main game etc too.  But this is really irrelevant, but just interesting to think about.

You continue to push this "made up numbers" narrative in every one of these threads, even though it makes absolutely no sense.

When someone buys a game, and plays it, that game appears on the trophy list along with all the DLC trophies. Everyone who has The Last of Us on their trophy list has Left Behind on their trophy list, and they should be included towards the rarity calculation. How many times must I explain this?

If anything, the current method is using those "made up" numbers that you fear so much, so surely you should be against it?

[Stardroid]

Was also about to note what madbuk said, but he covered it pretty well. For me, the best solution would be creating sub sections. If people wish to play the DLC, they can and they are calculated as they are now. For people like me, who wish to keep their rarity levels around 30-35%, I'd rather avoid obligatory DLC for 100%.

[MMDE]

31 minutes ago, madbuk said:

You continue to push this "made up numbers" narrative in every one of these threads, even though it makes absolutely no sense.

When someone buys a game, and plays it, that game appears on the trophy list along with all the DLC trophies. Everyone who has The Last of Us on their trophy list has Left Behind on their trophy list, and they should be included towards the rarity calculation. How many times must I explain this?

If anything, the current method is using those "made up" numbers that you fear so much, so surely you should be against it?

 

 What I said was a response to what you say here madbuk... It is unfortunate that DLCs' trophy list appears on your profile along with the game, but this doesn't mean they have played the DLC, or even own it. Saying they do without any evidence is just making it up. Yes, there are cases where everyone owns the DLCs, like in the cases where all versions come with the DLCs or if comes with a patch, but it's more about if they've played it or not.

 

Regardless, you're saying because the DLC lists appear on the trophy list when someone play the main game, we should count them as having played the DLCs too. We don't know if they have that if they haven't earned a trophy from the DLC. I get that you don't think this is how it should work fundamentally, that we shouldn't count if they have played it, just the fact that the trophy list is on their profile. So the trophies are how many who got it of those who have the trophy lists on their profile. PSNP doesn't actually count games if you haven't earned a trophy for them either... I think the other stats should be more reflective of that and it work the exact same way for the DLCs. Some of the stats are a bit inconsistent when it comes to cases like that. That is an actual issue!  Like unearned trophies, or completion % etc. Just not reflecting this well enough.

 

I'm way more for the "tier" suggestion, but I don't think it works very well practically.

 

Anyway, I think most people want the rarity % to present/communicate what percentage of players has earned the trophies of those who has played the content that can give you the trophies. Rather than it just being percentage of people who has the trophy of those who got the trophy list on their profile, even when they have never played the content the trophy list is for. I know you like the consequences of the latter better, because then you got more rare trophies rather than more common, but this was actually more of a problem before. Irrelevant really, but I'd rather see more common than ruining the entire system with too many rare. Made the ultra rare rarity rather pointless, and people boosted it by just getting DLC trophies.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[Guest]

Edited July 28, 2018 by voleman79

[madbuk]

1 hour ago, MMDE said:

 

 What I said was a response to what you say here madbuk... It is unfortunate that DLCs' trophy list appears on your profile along with the game, but this doesn't mean they have played the DLC, or even own it. Saying they do without any evidence is just making it up. Yes, there are cases where everyone owns the DLCs, like in the cases where all versions come with the DLCs or if comes with a patch, but it's more about if they've played it or not.

 

Regardless, you're saying because the DLC lists appear on the trophy list when someone play the main game, we should count them as having played the DLCs too. We don't know if they have that if they haven't earned a trophy from the DLC. I get that you don't think this is how it should work fundamentally, that we shouldn't count if they have played it, just the fact that the trophy list is on their profile. So the trophies are how many who got it of those who have the trophy lists on their profile. PSNP doesn't actually count games if you haven't earned a trophy for them either... I think the other stats should be more reflective of that and it work the exact same way for the DLCs. Some of the stats are a bit inconsistent when it comes to cases like that. That is an actual issue!  Like unearned trophies, or completion % etc. Just not reflecting this well enough.

 

I'm way more for the "tier" suggestion, but I don't think it works very well practically.

 

Anyway, I think most people want the rarity % to present/communicate what percentage of players has earned the trophies of those who has played the content that can give you the trophies. Rather than it just being percentage of people who has the trophy of those who got the trophy list on their profile, even when they have never played the content the trophy list is for. I know you like the consequences of the latter better, because then you got more rare trophies rather than more common, but this was actually more of a problem before. Irrelevant really, but I'd rather see more common than ruining the entire system with too many rare. Made the ultra rare rarity rather pointless, and people boosted it by just getting DLC trophies.

You assume that I only want the old method of calculation back because I want some easy UR trophies. No. I want the old method back because it was the only logical and accurate way of calculating DLC rarity, whereas the current method is utter nonsense.

0% trophy lists do affect the rarity of trophies, so why shouldn't 0% DLC lists affect rarity as well? 100% of TLoU owners have Grounded on their list, and they should ALL be included in rarity calculation, just like anyone who has TLoU base game at 0% is calculated towards rarity of base game trophies.

 

Also, the idea that DLC shouldn't affect your completion or urnearned trophy count unless you prove you own it is utterly absurd. It's on your profile. What about people who sell games before they complete the platinum? Should those games suddenly be excluded from their completion %? No.

[jaehyun1009]

6 hours ago, Starflakes said:

Trophy rarity should be calculated on the amount of people playing. Not on a made up amount as that would inaccurately represent the numbers. If I complete an exam and out of ten students, four were absent, then I need my results to be compared to the 6 students present and not ten in total. Same goes for DLC. A lot of people why buy the DLC on this website do it because they like the game and for completion's sake. That's also why the number of DLC buyers is a lot lower than the buyers of the base game. If you calculate the rarity including non buyers, than you are creating false rarity. Something this site should avoid.

Currently the calculations are based off of people who have earned at least 1 trophy on the DLC list instead of number of people who actually own the DLC.

 

This is why you get 100% rarity for, for example, TLOU grounded, which doesn't reflect its difficulty whatsoever.

5 hours ago, Satoshi Ookami said:

I believe I said many times that I support Mango's idea of creating different tiers for DLC trophies.

I would support this too, in addition to excluding DLC rarity from average rarity calculation. (if rarity stays as is)

[Stardroid]

16 minutes ago, jaehyun1009 said:

Currently the calculations are based off of people who have earned at least 1 trophy on the DLC list instead of number of people who actually own the DLC.

 

This is why you get 100% rarity for, for example, TLOU grounded, which doesn't reflect its difficulty whatsoever.

I would support this too, in addition to excluding DLC rarity from average rarity calculation. (if rarity stays as is)

Rarity does not reflect difficulty, it reflects completion. I have several ultra rare platinums which weren't nearly as hard as the MGS2 platinum. The only thing that percentage should reflect is the completion by the amount of players who have actively played it (started it up and started playing it). Nothing more

[jaehyun1009]

2 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

Rarity does not reflect difficulty, it reflects completion. I have several ultra rare platinums which weren't nearly as hard as the MGS2 platinum. The only thing that percentage should reflect is the completion by the amount of players who have actively played it (started it up and started playing it). Nothing more

And you think 100% of people who started TLOU grounded completed it?

[Stardroid]

34 minutes ago, jaehyun1009 said:

And you think 100% of people who started TLOU grounded completed it?

 

That's certainly possible, yes. But even if it wasn't the case, the argument that rarity should reflect completion and not difficulty still stands. TLOU has 600000 players. 31500 of those players achieved the platinum trophy. Then it's definitely not unthinkable that a mere 7500 players beat the DLC grounded mode on actual grounded mode.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Starflakes

[jaehyun1009]

25 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

 

That's certainly possible, yes. But even if it wasn't the case, the argument that rarity should reflect completion and not difficulty still stands. TLOU has 600000 players. 31500 of those players achieved the platinum trophy. Then it's definitely not unthinkable that a mere 7500 players beat the DLC grounded mode on actual grounded mode.

I bet that (a lot) more than 7500 PSNprofiles players own the grounded mode DLC and started it, but it just doesn't show up on the list of 7500 players because they haven't earned a trophy on that list (which just consists of beating grounded mode and grounded mode+).

 

And there are cases like, for example, GOTY editions with all the DLC included so everyone has the DLC from the get-go, but it doesn't count towards the number of people in the DLC because they haven't earned a trophy on that list.

 

My point is, current system isn't based on number of DLC owners (which is what most of the people for the current rarity seem to be actually arguing for) but number of people who have earned at least 1 trophy on a DLC list, which is clearly flawed because number of DLC owners =/= number of people who earned at least 1 trophy from a DLC list.

Edited December 17, 2016 by jaehyun1009

[Se7en]

19 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

That's certainly possible, yes.

 

Absolutely not, that is exactly made up number. If even trophies like The Birth of an Assassin or Off The Boat can't get 100%, completing TLOU on the Grounded is out of the question.

[Stardroid]

9 minutes ago, jaehyun1009 said:

I bet that (a lot) more than 7500 PSNprofiles players own the grounded mode DLC and started it, but it just doesn't show up on the list of 7500 players because they haven't earned a trophy on that list (which just consists of beating grounded mode and grounded mode+).

 

And there are cases like, for example, GOTY editions being built into the game that come with all the DLC included so everyone has the DLC from the get-go, but it doesn't count towards the number of people in the DLC because they haven't earned a trophy on that list.

 

My point is, current system isn't based on number of DLC owners (which is what most of the people for the current rarity seem to be actually arguing for) but number of people who have earned at least 1 trophy on a DLC list.

 

So what if more people bought the DLC? There are also people who bought TLOU and didn't actually play. We don't count those either as that is absurd. The rarity % on this website is calculated on REGISTERED game users. Which is more than fine. If you want PS4 numbers, then check them on your PS4. It's that simple. I actually prefer rarity being calculated on amount of registered people who actually touched the game. It shows a much better comparison in completion.

7 minutes ago, Se7en said:

 

Absolutely not, that is exactly made up number. If even trophies like The Birth of an Assassin or Off The Boat can't get 100%, completing TLOU on the Grounded is out of the question.

 

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the DLC Grounded mode has grounded mode by default. Therefore, it only requires people to complete the the game on grounded mode. Are you saying there is a fault in the system? Can you point out where it is? Because as far as I see, 7500 people decided to play this and each one succeeded in beating grounded mode. Seeing as it's the last DLC as well, you can be sure that most of them on this website bought and played it for the sake of completion. 7500 people out of 600000 is a small margin of people. 3600 people reached 100% completion. 80% beat the game on grounded mode plus. All it takes for you to collect evidence that it's false is to find one person who played the Grounded DLC and did not complete anything.

Your argument is also very poor as different fanbases act in different ways. Some are more dedicated than others.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Starflakes

[Se7en]

5 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

Are you saying there is a fault in the system? Can you point out where it is?

 

Sure. Look, you assume:

 

5 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

7500 people decided to play this and each one succeeded in beating grounded mode

 

but the only factual data you have is that 7500 people achieved the Grounded trophy. You really don't know how many tried though. And as there are way more easily achievable trophies that still don't have 100% stat, it is obvious that 100% success in case of Grounded mode is false.

[Stardroid]

Just now, Se7en said:

 

Sure. Look, you assume:

 

 

but the only factual data you have is that 7500 people achieved the Grounded trophy. You really don't know how many tried though. And as there are way more easily achievable trophies that still don't have 100% stat, it is obvious that 100% success in case of Grounded mode is false.

 

Yes, seems that I have missed a point. I was under the impression that people who also tried got included. I forgot that when you get 0% on a game, it doesn't actually count toward your own completion. Then I can agree with what is being said. Although TLOU Grounded Mode is pretty much a freak accident as it only has two trophies. I apologize for having missed this crucial point.

[madbuk]

12 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

 

Yes, seems that I have missed a point. I was under the impression that people who also tried got included. I forgot that when you get 0% on a game, it doesn't actually count toward your own completion. Then I can agree with what is being said. Although TLOU Grounded Mode is pretty much a freak accident as it only has two trophies. I apologize for having missed this crucial point.

It's actually a lot more common than just being a freak accident in TLoU. For example, the trophy for getting 90 stars in Mirror's Edge is more common than the trophy for getting 50 stars... How does this make sense? It doesn't. It would make sense if we went back to the old way, where the 90 star trophy would be rarer than the 50 star trophy.

There's also Metro: Last Light, with a 100% difficulty trophy. There's Dragon Age II, where the trophy for beating the DLC is more common than the trophy for starting the game which makes no sense at all.

 

All of this - ALL of it - would be fixed if we went back to the old method.

This horrifying notion that "OH NO! EVERY TROPHY WILL BE ULTRA RARE!!!" is just wrong as well, btw, so don't buy into that narrative either. L.A Noire DLC, for example, used to be sitting around 10% or so.

[Stardroid]

21 minutes ago, madbuk said:

It's actually a lot more common than just being a freak accident in TLoU. For example, the trophy for getting 90 stars in Mirror's Edge is more common than the trophy for getting 50 stars... How does this make sense? It doesn't. It would make sense if we went back to the old way, where the 90 star trophy would be rarer than the 50 star trophy.

There's also Metro: Last Light, with a 100% difficulty trophy. There's Dragon Age II, where the trophy for beating the DLC is more common than the trophy for starting the game which makes no sense at all.

 

All of this - ALL of it - would be fixed if we went back to the old method.

This horrifying notion that "OH NO! EVERY TROPHY WILL BE ULTRA RARE!!!" is just wrong as well, btw, so don't buy into that narrative either. L.A Noire DLC, for example, used to be sitting around 10% or so.

Yeah, point taken. I was under a false impression and attributed the high rated due to people on this website buying DLC for the majority just being dedicated to 100% completion. When you put it that way, you make a strong case. I agree.

[X_Wizi_X]

22 minutes ago, madbuk said:

It's actually a lot more common than just being a freak accident in TLoU. For example, the trophy for getting 90 stars in Mirror's Edge is more common than the trophy for getting 50 stars... How does this make sense? It doesn't. It would make sense if we went back to the old way, where the 90 star trophy would be rarer than the 50 star trophy.

There's also Metro: Last Light, with a 100% difficulty trophy. There's Dragon Age II, where the trophy for beating the DLC is more common than the trophy for starting the game which makes no sense at all.

 

All of this - ALL of it - would be fixed if we went back to the old method.

This horrifying notion that "OH NO! EVERY TROPHY WILL BE ULTRA RARE!!!" is just wrong as well, btw, so don't buy into that narrative either. L.A Noire DLC, for example, used to be sitting around 10% or so.

 

This, this and still this.

A Dlc trophy should be counted on average rarity when it's achieved, not just when it's played or "tried", because it makes no sense in my opinion.

[MMDE]

2 hours ago, jaehyun1009 said:

Currently the calculations are based off of people who have earned at least 1 trophy on the DLC list instead of number of people who actually own the DLC.

 

This is why you get 100% rarity for, for example, TLOU grounded, which doesn't reflect its difficulty whatsoever.

I would support this too, in addition to excluding DLC rarity from average rarity calculation. (if rarity stays as is)

 

Played*, because we don't really count owners. I got some few hundred games not on my profile, should I count for those? Should I count for DLCs I have never played? And these questions are posed at madbuk and anyone in his camp.  I know you, jahyun1009 and Satoshi wants a different tier, theoretically I'd prefer that too, even if I don't see it practically working. I'd love to see some good suggestions on how it would work practically!

13 minutes ago, X_Wizi_X said:

 

This, this and still this.

A Dlc trophy should be counted on average rarity when it's achieved, not just when it's played or "tried", because it makes no sense in my opinion.

 

We only count games when they are played, and people have actually earned a trophy for it... I find this inconsistent.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[madbuk]

5 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Played*, because we don't really count owners. I got some few hundred games not on my profile, should I count for those? Should I count for DLCs I have never played? And these questions are posed at madbuk and anyone in his camp.  I know you, jahyun1009 and Satoshi wants a different tier, theoretically I'd prefer that too, even if I don't see it practically working. I'd love to see some good suggestions on how it would work practically!

 

We only count games when they are played, and people have actually earned a trophy for it... I find this inconsistent.

You should be counted if you've played the game the DLC is a part of. Whether you played the DLC section or not is irrelevant.

 

"100% of players beat the final boss of Kingdoms of Amalur! I know this to be true because I only counted people who played up to and beat that boss fight!"

 

The DLC is a section of that game (often locked behind a paywall) that not everybody has played, thus, not everyone has completed, thus low rarity.

 

And once again, games count once they're on your profile. A 0% game still affects the rarity of that game. You can see this with ICO's rarity. There should be a 100% trophy, but there isn't.

[X_Wizi_X]

21 minutes ago, MMDE said:

We only count games when they are played, and people have actually earned a trophy for it... I find this inconsistent.

 

We can't go from a "1% ultrarare Dlc's trophy" with old system to a "100% common Dlc's trophy" with the new one.

 

I guess there are 2 ways to fix dlcs average rarity system:

 

- back to the old one

or

- remove entirely rarity from dlcs 

[MMDE]

56 minutes ago, X_Wizi_X said:

 

We can't go from a "1% ultrarare Dlc's trophy" with old system to a "100% common Dlc's trophy" with the new one.

 

I guess there are 2 ways to fix dlcs average rarity system:

 

- back to the old one

or

- remove entirely rarity from dlcs 

 

Why can't we do that? You and madbuk seem more interested in the result than what the stats are supposed to represent and communicate. This is not how you do statistics. You don't start with what you want the result to be. You decide what it is you want to find out, and then you look at the results and accept them. This is why the entire 100% common or ultra rare stuff is just irrelevant. I'm just mentioning it, because it was a massive complaint in the past. It just ruined the system.

 

Remove rarity from DLCs is kinda pointless, but a more functional solution is that it doesn't play into other stats where you consider non DLC trophies too. Like the average rarity %. I'd love to see it removed from unearned trophies and completion ratio, if you haven't got a trophy from the DLC yet.

 

The "old one" just doesn't represent the DLC trophies in the same way as main game trophies, so it was always wrong and broken. Now we just have the problem of knowing if someone has played the DLC yet or not, especially in the cases where there's few and hard trophies for a DLC.

 

The other option is representing them as two different things, because that'd be the most accurate, but this is practically difficult. Until something like that is done, I don't see why we should treat DLC trophies differently than main game trophies, in the sense that we calculate them on different basis as to if we've played the content or not.

[madbuk]

4 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Why can't we do that? You and madbuk seem more interested in the result than what the stats are supposed to represent and communicate. This is not how you do statistics. You don't start with what you want the result to be. You decide what it is you want to find out, and then you look at the results and accept them. This is why the entire 100% common or ultra rare stuff is just irrelevant. I'm just mentioning it, because it was a massive complaint in the past. It just ruined the system.

 

Remove rarity from DLCs is kinda pointless, but a more functional solution is that it doesn't play into other stats where you consider non DLC trophies too. Like the average rarity %. I'd love to see it removed from unearned trophies and completion ratio, if you haven't got a trophy from the DLC yet.

 

The "old one" just doesn't represent the DLC trophies in the same way as main game trophies, so it was always wrong and broken. Now we just have the problem of knowing if someone has played the DLC yet or not, especially in the cases where there's few and hard trophies for a DLC.

 

The other option is representing them as two different things, because that'd be the most accurate, but this is practically difficult. Until something like that is done, I don't see why we should treat DLC trophies differently than main game trophies, in the sense that we calculate them on different basis as to if we've played the content or not.

Why shouldn't DLC count towards your unearned/completion %? It's on your profile and it's a part of a game that you probably have a trophy in.

And you're right, we should treat DLC trophies exactly like main game trophies - as in, main game owners should count towards DLC rarity whether they have a trophy in the DLC or not, because again, everybody who has TLoU on their trophy list has Grounded on their trophy list. This is all that is relevant, whether Grounded has been played or not is NOT relevant.