Trophy Rarity Question

[Se7en]

for the sake of fun and to show that i am in fact hearing what you're saying let's look at the games you mentioned since likely you won't bother coming up with any data and just keep repeating "i'm right, look at all the exceptions i can find"...gta v has a trophy which is basically "setup a heist" and "create something"...i'd say those are pretty good signs of ownership and DLC 1 is in the chart...numbers look fine with the current method...bioshock 1..."finish the level"...numbers look good...bioshock 2...not sure, looks like mp..."play every DLC map in a public match"...possible exception...batman...no DLC?...burnout...all DLC have easy trophies that would be hard to miss...part of the chart...numbers look fine with the current method...dishonored....DLC 1...looks tough...completion rate looks pretty legit...possible exception...DLC 2 & 3..."finish the first level" trophies by the looks of it but could be wrong...rate looks fine...sleeping dogs...DLC 1 & 2..."finish the first level"...looks legit...

Still you’ve missed my point, even trying to show hearing what I said: in case of those games (and much more not mentioned here) all DLCs are undoubtedly available to game owners, thus DLC owners = game owners, without any additional proof needed like at least one earned trophy from DLC. Which initially makes any other method (currently used or both mathematical averages) plain incorrect with regard to those games, no matter how pretty legit any alternative stat looks to you, especially based on such totally subjective thing as “easy trophies” term.

Basically, what I’m saing -- in response to those 30.5 points of seemingly legit stats you calculated based on average methods there can be found more than 30 games out here with definitely inaccurate stats based on the very same methods. Even no need to calculate trophy rarity in every each of them, because we know from the nature of used method it gives wrong results.

So I’m not here to state “I’m right because I say so”, but to bring to your and anyone else interested in this topic attention, that both averages formulae by default deny possibility of correct stats for a bunch of games. Is this an acceptable sacrifice to compromise with? (To my mind it isn’t, but that’s an opinion and it is not better or worse than anyone else’s.) Nevertheless the fact that I pointed out of arithmetic and geometric averages (as well as the currently used method) being inaccurate with regard to many games still stands.

And since it is probably impossible for everyone to agree on one particular solution, the most reasonable thing seems to use the same method as Sony officially does. After all, it’s their system in the first place.

 

so strange but proof that not everyone who is being tracked is an active member or even knows of this site...i wonder how many more cases like this there are...

No need to wander, site’s main page provides number of its members -- 190,932 at the time of writing, while the world leaderbord tracks 2,535,870 PSN users plus 27,372 cheaters. So there are only about 7.45 % members here.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Se7en_Rus

[jaehyun1009]

I know this has been discussed to death but here's my two cents anyways.

 

It feels like in the current system it's damned if you do and damned if you don't, because completing a DLC means higher average rarity (most of the time) and not doing so means lower completion rate.

 

If I had any say in this matter, I would suggest to either keep the current DLC rarity and exclude them from average rarity calculation, or revert to old DLC rarity altogether. Though I wouldn't be against a geometric mean calculation if Sly fancies it.

[X_Wizi_X]

I think rarity should depend on base game + every dlc linked to that game.

 

It's not credible that Grounded mode Dlc on the last of us or Ranger Hardcore Mode Dlc on Metro Last Light has 100% rarity

Edited December 15, 2016 by X_Wizi_X

[sephiroth4424]

Funny stuff.I'm playing Witcher 3 GOTY at the moment.The base game counts 3736 players.The first dlc counts 1108 and the second 782.I know that someone has to unlock a trophy in any dlc in order to be counted as owner,but hey,complete editions should be an exception...

[Satoshi Ookami]

22 hours ago, sephiroth4424 said:

Funny stuff.I'm playing Witcher 3 GOTY at the moment.The base game counts 3736 players.The first dlc counts 1108 and the second 782.I know that someone has to unlock a trophy in any dlc in order to be counted as owner,but hey,complete editions should be an exception...

And here we go again =D

Yea, DLC rarity is bad and we should feel bad for talking about it :/

[BeautifulTorment]

36 minutes ago, Satoshi Ookami said:

And here we go again =D

Yea, DLC rarity is bad and we should feel bad for talking about it :/

Well really it should be fixed so we should feel bad until it is.

[madbuk]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulTorment said:

Well really it should be fixed so we should feel bad until it is.

All I wanted from the site update was for the DLC rarity to be fixed... and then it wasn't </3

[marvelboy10]

I think the way the DLC rarity system works is actually good. Think about it if the DLC trophies were connected to the main game as a whole then it wouldn't be fair to the people who don't or can't buy that DLC. Basically the people who buy the DLC get a free ultra rare trophy. That's not fair because not everybody can own the DLC. Think about this Call of Duty has almost 1 million owners. So imagine if the last DLC Moon was connected to the main game. That means the 100,000(I think) players who own the DLC will most likely have some if not a lot of ultra  or very rare trophies added to their list. That means the other 900,000 players can't get the ultra rare trophy added to their list because they can't buy the DLC for whatever reason. 

Edited December 16, 2016 by marvelboy10

[BeautifulTorment]

56 minutes ago, marvelboy10 said:

I think the way the DLC rarity system works is actually good. Think about it if the DLC trophies were connected to the main game as a whole then it wouldn't be fair to the people who don't or can't buy that DLC. Basically the people who buy the DLC get a free ultra rare trophy. That's not fair because not everybody can own the DLC. Think about this Call of Duty has almost 1 million owners. So imagine if the last DLC Moon was connected to the main game. That means the 100,000(I think) players who own the DLC will most likely have some if not a lot of ultra  or very rare trophies added to their list. That means the other 900,000 players can't get the ultra rare trophy added to their list because they can't buy the DLC for whatever reason. 

But everyone does have the option to get the DLC. It isn't like the PSN store blocks you from purchasing add-ons if your ID starts with an m etc.

[Stardroid]

57 minutes ago, marvelboy10 said:

I think the way the DLC rarity system works is actually good. Think about it if the DLC trophies were connected to the main game as a whole then it wouldn't be fair to the people who don't or can't buy that DLC. Basically the people who buy the DLC get a free ultra rare trophy. That's not fair because not everybody can own the DLC. Think about this Call of Duty has almost 1 million owners. So imagine if the last DLC Moon was connected to the main game. That means the 100,000(I think) players who own the DLC will most likely have some if not a lot of ultra  or very rare trophies added to their list. That means the other 900,000 players can't get the ultra rare trophy added to their list because they can't buy the DLC for whatever reason. 

 

I agree, however, this is very peculiar to me. A couple of months ago I had a small discussion with someone from the moderator staff (I believe), whether or not DLC should be counted toward 100% completion in the base game. The argument given then was that it was the case because DLC is part of the main game. But when rarity is calculated, it's not calculated by that standard. I still believe DLC lists should be subcategories under the main game and only be on your profile when you have engaged in playing it.

[marvelboy10]

9 minutes ago, BeautifulTorment said:

But everyone does have the option to get the DLC. It isn't like the PSN store blocks you from purchasing add-ons if your ID starts with an m etc.

What I mean is maybe they can't get the DLC because they don't have enough funds in their wallet or they only use psn cards and ran out of it or stuff like that.

[jaehyun1009]

1 hour ago, marvelboy10 said:

I think the way the DLC rarity system works is actually good. Think about it if the DLC trophies were connected to the main game as a whole then it wouldn't be fair to the people who don't or can't buy that DLC. Basically the people who buy the DLC get a free ultra rare trophy. That's not fair because not everybody can own the DLC. Think about this Call of Duty has almost 1 million owners. So imagine if the last DLC Moon was connected to the main game. That means the 100,000(I think) players who own the DLC will most likely have some if not a lot of ultra  or very rare trophies added to their list. That means the other 900,000 players can't get the ultra rare trophy added to their list because they can't buy the DLC for whatever reason. 

either every trophy is ultra rare or common. pick your poison

[SnowxSakura]

59 minutes ago, marvelboy10 said:

What I mean is maybe they can't get the DLC because they don't have enough funds in their wallet or they only use psn cards and ran out of it or stuff like that.

It still doesn't change the fact that it's not like it can't be purchased in the future. The only reason it wouldn't count is if the dlc became delisted. Just because I haven't purchased the dlc doesn't mean it shouldn't count against my average rarity.

Edited December 16, 2016 by SnowxSakura

[marvelboy10]

7 minutes ago, SnowxSakura said:

It still doesn't change the fact that it's not like it can't be purchased in the future. The only reason it wouldn't count is if the dlc became delisted. Just because I haven't purchased the dlc doesn't mean it shouldn't count against my average rarity.

Well that's your opinion and I respect that. I am just trying to clarify that what they are doing now is fair in my opinion. 

[PerryToxteth]

This topic is always the one that takes the happy, cohesive PSNP community and divides them into Shias and Sunnis.  

 

[Stardroid]

10 hours ago, jaehyun1009 said:

either every trophy is ultra rare or common. pick your poison

Trophy rarity should be calculated on the amount of people playing. Not on a made up amount as that would inaccurately represent the numbers. If I complete an exam and out of ten students, four were absent, then I need my results to be compared to the 6 students present and not ten in total. Same goes for DLC. A lot of people why buy the DLC on this website do it because they like the game and for completion's sake. That's also why the number of DLC buyers is a lot lower than the buyers of the base game. If you calculate the rarity including non buyers, than you are creating false rarity. Something this site should avoid.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Starflakes

[Satoshi Ookami]

1 minute ago, Starflakes said:

Trophy rarity should be calculated on the amount of people playing. Not on a made up amount as that would inaccurately represent the numbers. If I complete an exam and out of ten students, four were absent, then I need my results to be compared to the 6 students present and not ten in total. Same goes for DLC. A lot of people why buy the DLC on this website do it because they like the game and for completion's sake. That's also why the number of DLC buyers is a lot lower than the buyers of the base game. If you calculate the rarity including non buyers, than you are creating false rarity. Something this site should avoid.

But that's the problem. Actual amount of DLC owners is not available anywhere. If Sony made this stat available, there wouldn't be any problems...

[Stardroid]

Just now, Satoshi Ookami said:

But that's the problem. Actual amount of DLC owners is not available anywhere. If Sony made this stat available, there wouldn't be any problems...

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the DLC owners that use this website are always available, which is all the data you need as this site calculates based on users and not global userbase.

[Satoshi Ookami]

15 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the DLC owners that use this website are always available, which is all the data you need as this site calculates based on users and not global userbase.

That's amount of DLC owners that got one trophy in the particular DLC. Which leads to many 100% DLC trophies in DLCs that are structured to have first trophy or 1 trophy only DLCs. despite that being absolutely incorrect.

It's perfectly visible on Driveclub.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/2924-driveclub/SatoshiOokami

 

And here's the pretty much main reason why people complained.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/1989-the-last-of-us

Grounded Mode being 100%.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Satoshi Ookami

[Stardroid]

2 minutes ago, Satoshi Ookami said:

That's amount of DLC owners that got one trophy in the particular DLC. Which leads to many 100% DLC trophies despite that being absolutely incorrect.

It's perfectly visible on Driveclub.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/2924-driveclub/SatoshiOokami

 

And here's the pretty much main reason why people complained.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/1989-the-last-of-us

Grounded Mode being 100%.

Sorry, but I don't see the problem. If you bought the DLC and you got that particular trophy, then you get to be included in the rarity stat. Or am I reading your comment incorrectly? If 7500 people buy DLC when the base game probably has around 600000, should it surprise you that the people buying that DLC on this site all complete it? If all of the people who bought it achieved it, then it's 100%.

[MMDE]

11 hours ago, BeautifulTorment said:

But everyone does have the option to get the DLC. It isn't like the PSN store blocks you from purchasing add-ons if your ID starts with an m etc.

 

It's not like the PSN store blocks you from purchasing a game either.

 

I see madbuk whining about "fixing" this too. Until someone come up with a better solution for knowing who owns the DLCs, I don't see what you want people to do about this. I know you argue from the conclusion and consequences, just like BT did when he came to chat last night to make an appeal to popularity about it.

 

The question is more about what you actually want to communicate with the rarity %? What is the actual point of it when it comes to the non-DLC trophies? It's certainly not to count how many who got the trophies of those who can buy it in the PSN store, which is what BT suggested here.

 

As far as I see it, what we actually do want to represent/communicate with the rarity % is the percentage of people who has played, not just own really, but same shit, we can't tell the difference anyway, the content that allow them to obtain the trophies. Not how many who can buy the content, but who has played it or owns it. It is unfortunate the currently best way we know of to judge if someone owns/has played a DLC is if they've earned a trophy for it. This is no excuse to make up numbers and say everyone who owns/has played the game also owns/has played the DLCs.

 

One of the better arguments against this is that you don't have this view on what the rarity % is supposed represent/communicate, but personally I don't see any consistency in it.

 

A possible way to solve this is to deal with them as a different entity than main game trophies, but this is confusing for most players and just no good practically.

 

I've explained this to both of you, especially you madbuk, many times. Not sure why this still doesn't register. I've yet to hear any good replies to this either, or a consistent answer to the question about what the rarity % is supposed to be.

8 minutes ago, Satoshi Ookami said:

That's amount of DLC owners that got one trophy in the particular DLC. Which leads to many 100% DLC trophies in DLCs that are structured to have first trophy or 1 trophy only DLCs. despite that being absolutely incorrect.

It's perfectly visible on Driveclub.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/2924-driveclub/SatoshiOokami

 

And here's the pretty much main reason why people complained.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/1989-the-last-of-us

Grounded Mode being 100%.

 

And this is an argument from consequences. You don't like the consequences, therefore you don't think it should be correct. It is unfortunate though, but do you have a better solution?

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[Satoshi Ookami]

Just now, Starflakes said:

 If all of the people who bought it achieved it, then it's 100%.

But you said it yourself. If ALL of the people who BOUGHT it achieved it, then it's 100%.

We have no way of confirming that  Unless you earn one trophy, you are not included in the DLC owners statistics even though you bought the DLC.

 

Maybe another example is in place. Suppose this. Someone buys GOTY edition of some game which comes with DLC. However, they do not touch DLC at all. That means they own the DLC but are not counted towards the stat. Therefore, it no longer can be 100%, but if all other players got one specific trophy, it would be 100%.

[MMDE]

10 minutes ago, Starflakes said:

Sorry, but I don't see the problem. If you bought the DLC and you got that particular trophy, then you get to be included in the rarity stat. Or am I reading your comment incorrectly? If 7500 people buy DLC when the base game probably has around 600000, should it surprise you that the people buying that DLC on this site all complete it? If all of the people who bought it achieved it, then it's 100%.

 

The problem is just that in some cases it's likely many people got and have played a DLC without earning a trophy from it. This is problematic, because then we don't know if they have played it or not. I do however not see this as a good reason to say people have played the DLC just because they've played the main game, that'd just be making up numbers. If we did count then, we'd radically change what the rarity % stand for, and it'd likely be very inconsistent.

 

DLC trophies should in most cases be rather common, because those who buy it invest even more into the game, and will therefore be way more likely to get the trophies too. You usually don't start out with the DLCs, it's something you do at the end or something, so to play it, you'd already likely be one of those who is going to 100% the main game etc too.  But this is really irrelevant, but just interesting to think about.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[Gibbo_0113]

13 hours ago, madbuk said:

All I wanted from the site update was for the DLC rarity to be fixed... and then it wasn't </3

 

Everyone needs to learn that it's never going to happen as there is no fix.

 

Neither ways of determining DLC rarity are perfect.  We cant have an imaginary average number.

[Satoshi Ookami]

8 minutes ago, MMDE said:

And this is an argument from consequences. You don't like the consequences, therefore you don't think it should be correct. It is unfortunate though, but do you have a better solution?

I believe I said many times that I support Mango's idea of creating different tiers for DLC trophies.