Sly Ripper Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 @BlindMango's post pretty much has it all covered, I'll write up a terms of service maybe or add it to the rules thread. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegirlruka Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 3 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said: if the disputes are to remain public would it be possible to label members as "flag/dispute team" or something just so we know who can be taken seriously?... @grimydawg is the sole member 3 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said: also would anyone consider making them a private affair and the flag team creates threads like "does anyone know if unlocking these trophies like this is possible" threads to possibly reduce potential self-proclaimed mods from telling the person to hide their trophies or whatever before a dispute is settled...it could also take the pressure off of the flagged individuals feeling like they're being attacked, many of which are basically getting a forced first post in the forums...there's a saying (excuse the profanity this is how I first heard it; some flagged users responses have made me think of this) "a guy could save 1000 lives and then one day suck one d**k and from thereon always be known as a c**ksucker, not a lifesaver"... I suggested this and nothing came of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimydawg___ Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 58 minutes ago, kuuhaku said: @grimydawg is the sole member I suggested this and nothing came of it. No, I'm not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, ProfBambam55 said: also would anyone consider making them a private affair and the flag team creates threads like "does anyone know if unlocking these trophies like this is possible" threads to possibly reduce potential self-proclaimed mods from telling the person to hide their trophies or whatever before a dispute is settled...it could also take the pressure off of the flagged individuals feeling like they're being attacked, many of which are basically getting a forced first post in the forums... I think this is partially aimed at me. I usually try to do decent research about a game before I start flagging people for it. I will then go through everyone for that one game and report everyone I believe there's a good chance has actually cheated through save files or CFW or something like that. I get a pretty good picture, because I usually collect everyone to report first and then look for patterns. I'll try to find a legit reason for what I see and if perhaps save files or common save editing etc may be the reason. You know I do this! Okay, so when we get around to the dispute thread, and I quite confidently reported them and know why they've been reported, and their explanation of what has happened is just bs, I'm pretty confident that the thread will lead to nowhere. I then do what one of the dispute threads functions are, help the person to what to do next, which will be to hide the game, unless they got some better explanation. When someone dispute a flag wrongfully, there's usually a good chance they've done it more, or there might be a bigger picture that explains the evidence, that a single game isn't the entire picture. There's plenty of examples of this, and I think it's good people go through their account in such situations. If there's nothing to find, then they'll be fine. When I find that someone has cheated a game, I don't usually look for 2 other games to get them permanently off the leaderboards, but if they dispute the flag with some lame excuse or where they try to trick the person reading the dispute, I will go look for more games. Edited May 19, 2017 by MMDE 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) It is in fact not aimed at you or anyone in particular...just something I noticed happens and often within a short span of time...add a frustrated flaggee to the mix and not knowing who is real or not and the situation can get pretty hairy...i don't know why but I often get the feeling there is a rush to close the dispute...maybe it would be best to only have members labelled as "dispute mediator" telling the flagged players what to do...i kind of feel bad for grimy and other mods, human volunteers as far as I know and possibly with busy lifestyles to top it off, having to come in and sort through all the posts and particularly in the disputes that get derailed by off topic comments... again, my goal was not to single anyone out just try to help the black and white merge...I also thought of making the disputes private until resolved as an idea but not worthy of posting...I think working together is ideal so perhaps consider suggestions from all sides and see if a common ground can be found...I could be wrong but it seems plenty of members are pretty passionately for or against the way the disputes are run now...if our goal is to improve the community personal insults are not needed and opinions should be heard imo... Edited May 19, 2017 by ProfBambam55 Added frustrated, rush, grimy parts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioFragolino Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 hour ago, MMDE said: What does it matter if the game is old??? Unless you do strange stuff like deleting accounts without synching trophies, then you probably don't have much to worry about. What does matter? In the disputed you can try to dispute your flagged game with some prove and this is ok but if you have an old game in the list (2010/2011) where you used your own save game because your PS3 was broken and you could not sync. what evidence can you try after 4/5 years? even if you tell the truth explaining that you use your own save you get banned. (i refer to those case that only unlock 2 or 3 trophies out of order, not those who unlock 10/15 trophies in a row.) Anyway if there is a supposition but not the certainty i don't understand why there should be the flag because you haven't the prove to report me (only in some extreme cases, one example was Fuel or COD WAW) and me haven't the prove to show you that save was mine because i think people can't go back in time to make photos or videos to what happened to him. Another thing there are people in the past with his flag lifted only for admitted to using their own save on their new console and this is very strange. One time the rules probably was different and for some sense was even better because if i tried now to say that i used my own save i'm seen as a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissShake Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 How about the disputes be private and between the flagged memeber and a small team unless no clear consensus is made? Then post it to the forums? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) i like the idea of privacy and this would cover members of the community being able to help out but might have one drawback in an exceptional set of circumstances...and that would be the case of, and a big "what if" here, what if there was someone who had "inside" info on a gamer cheating for trophies that had completely plausible time stamps and could only be proven with that person's "inside" knolwedge?...it could be completely overlooked by the dispute team if it remained private (not intended as an insult or questioning the methods of the team, just a statement)...this is why i had thought of only publishing disputes as they were resolved...that way the thread could be edited for diplomatic content only, locked to prevent any personal attacks, and the person with the "inside" info would have to PM a mod to present their evidence... tying into this thread idea, which i just realized i was way off topic in (apologies), perhaps having a disclaimer in the rules that lets people know their disputes will be handled or made public would be good... i think the argument for having the diputes private to some extent, is a good one...could anyone who is insistent upon having them public share why the above would not be a good idea?...i think we've covered the "so other members could help" aspect...are there other reasons we should consider?... really off topic: this is the first time i use the site on pc in a long time...usually busy and on my cell...didn't realize our signatures were still displayed here...feel pretty dumb right now...haha... edit: i'm incredibly confused...seems like there's more than one thread with ongoing discussions about the dispute system...sorry for adding to the confusion... Edited May 19, 2017 by ProfBambam55 added edit...removed comma... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damon8r351 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 6 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said: i like the idea of privacy and this would cover members of the community being able to help out but might have one drawback in an exceptional set of circumstances...and that would be the case of, and a big "what if" here, what if there was someone who had "inside" info on a gamer cheating for trophies that had completely plausible time stamps and could only be proven with that person's "inside" knolwedge?...it could be completely overlooked by the dispute team if it remained private (not intended as an insult or questioning the methods of the team, just a statement)...this is why i had thought of only publishing disputes as they were resolved...that way the thread could be edited for diplomatic content only, locked to prevent any personal attacks, and the person with the "inside" info would have to PM a mod to present their evidence... tying into this thread idea, which i just realized i was way off topic in (apologies), perhaps having a disclaimer in the rules that lets people know their disputes will be handled or made public would be good... i think the argument for having the diputes private, to some extent, is a good one...could anyone who is insistent upon having them public share why the above would not be a good idea?...i think we've covered the "so other members could help" aspect...are there other reasons we should consider?... really off topic: this is the first time i use the site on pc in a long time...usually busy and on my cell...didn't realize our signatures were still displayed here...feel pretty dumb right now...haha... I'll point out that I had what I thought was the good starting point for a dispute system along those lines. Not the final draft, I expected people to discuss and refine, or change. The thread is freshly unlocked as of last night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmland12 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Maybe give the person disputing the flag the choice of a public or private resolution? Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the system was changed to it's current version because people were complaining about not being able to dispute their flags publicly. There were even some posting about their flags publicly, basically creating threads like we're seeing now in the dispute forum (just look back in this subforum and you'll find them). So, there was and probably still is demand for a system like we currently have from people who have been flagged. Further, I doubt switching things back to private or making the rules more clear will halt the complaints. The main problem is and always will be that people don't like getting flagged. Can't blame them, if they've been falsely flagged at least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioFragolino Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 27 minutes ago, MMDE said: I don't get your argument. If you lost your trophies, you likely lost your progress too. If the save will get you trophies out of order or too fast etc, don't use it in such a way. Maybe worst case you have to start over? Proof of what with old games? If the trophies are out of order, they are. The problem with Fuel is usually that the trophies pop too fast or online trophies pop after the servers went down. Being able to see all their trophies, not just the game in question, and their username etc, it does actually make a huge difference in many cases. Especially when everyone can look at it. You can lost your trophies and save your own save on plus because when you upload your own save online the profile isn't update automatically but you have to do it manually. You would restart a game of 400/500 hours? mmmm... i don't think. I know the problem of Fuel intact in this extreme case is correct doubt. However i didn't have any answer to this: Another thing, there are people in the past with his flag lifted only for admitted to using their own save on their new console and this is very strange. One time the rules probably was different and for some sense was even better because if i tried now to say that i used my own save i'm seen as a liar. The question is, how it possible? because now this people can't be reported and they are saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MesopithecusUK Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, dmland12 said: Maybe give the person disputing the flag the choice of a public or private resolution? Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, the system was changed to it's current version because people were complaining about not being able to dispute their flags publicly. There were even some posting about their flags publicly, basically creating threads like we're seeing now in the dispute forum (just look back in this subforum and you'll find them). So, there was and probably still is demand for a system like we currently have from people who have been flagged. Further, I doubt switching things back to private or making the rules more clear will halt the complaints. The main problem is and always will be that people don't like getting flagged. Can't blame them, if they've been falsely flagged at least. Before this system, there was no way of disputing a flag besides messaging Sly or posting on the forum. I personally don't see (and have never seen) the demand for posting disputes so publically. All other tracking websites handle flags and disputes privately among a panel of people, it works more than adequately for them so there is absolutely no reason it can't be implemented here. This public dispute system is viewed pretty negatively by both people here and outside the site - it doesn't do much for PSNP's reputation. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmland12 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rach said: Before this system, there was no way of disputing a flag besides messaging Sly or posting on the forum. I personally don't see (and have never seen) the demand for posting disputes so publically. All other tracking websites handle flags and disputes privately among a panel of people, it works more than adequately for them so there is absolutely no reason it can't be implemented here. This public dispute system is viewed pretty negatively by both people here and outside the site - it doesn't do much for PSNP's reputation. Ah, well if there was no real dispute system before that's different. So, the people before that were trying to dispute their flags in public would have been fine with a private dispute settled by a few people? Maybe. In any case, if I were ever flagged, I'd prefer to argue it in public... as I feel I'd have a better chance getting things done correctly. So there's one at least. ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav9834 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, Rach said: Before this system, there was no way of disputing a flag besides messaging Sly or posting on the forum. I personally don't see (and have never seen) the demand for posting disputes so publically. All other tracking websites handle flags and disputes privately among a panel of people, it works more than adequately for them so there is absolutely no reason it can't be implemented here. This public dispute system is viewed pretty negatively by both people here and outside the site - it doesn't do much for PSNP's reputation. Yes before the site update and the dispute system, the site had a much different atmosphere. I personally believe the dispute system the way it is now is toxic to the forums And imo the amount of games that have been hacked over the past few years by members and put on the leaderboards vs how many have been resolved(including the ones that don't dispute) is miniscule in size. I do not think we'll be out of this for a long time, while also keeping up with new ones. Having said that, at what point does this stop affecting the sites previously extremely kind atmosphere, its reputation, and its worth if sold. I don't see the current system helping the members as much as hurting, and on a business side helping to increase its value. Of course the site is worth *quite* a bit if sold, that doesn't mean it should have imo toxic elements that could affect a buyer in the future if sold. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MesopithecusUK Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 1 minute ago, Dav9834 said: Yes before the site update and the dispute system, the site had a much different atmosphere. I personally believe the dispute system the way it is now is toxic to the forums And imo the amount of games that have been hacked over the past few years by members and put on the leaderboards vs how many have been resolved(including the ones that don't dispute) is miniscule in size. I do not think we'll be out of this for a long time, while also keeping up with new ones. Having said that, at what point does this stop affecting the sites previously extremely kind atmosphere, its reputation, and its worth if sold. I don't see the current system helping the members as much as hurting, and on a business side helping to increase its value. Of course the site is worth *quite* a bit if sold, that doesn't mean it should have imo toxic elements that could affect a buyer in the future if sold. I feel this site should offer more leniency over old games that have been flagged (say Fifa 09, FUEL - when save files were shared around like candy) On the other sites I have looked at, if you are flagged on old games, you get removed from that particular game leader board but still remain on the overall site leaderboard (unless you go over those two flagged game) You don't even have to hide your trophies. That would make much more sense here too and would save people being picked apart over an 8 year old game. There are still the kind, helpful people on here but the problem is the toxic nature filters down from the top and it's hard to push back against. I've seen a lot of good people abandoning ship because they don't like the direction it's been going lately. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioFragolino Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) I need an answer. If someone have a right order of trophies but his timestamp is unrealistically possible is flaggable? for example X game for the platinum need 250 hours of playing if one person do this game in 6 days but the order of the trophies are right but this one do that legit in 1 month (200 hours of playing) without sync. and put the save in his second console for sync. the trophies in a right order but in a lower time (6 days infact) for the fastest leaderboard is it considered to cheat? Because the are many people use this method for a lower completed time, do the game on a console A and save near to obtain the trophies and do the game all in this mode for sync. on the first console for a lower time. Edited May 19, 2017 by ZioFragolino Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damon8r351 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Rach said: I feel this site should offer more leniency over old games that have been flagged (say Fifa 09, FUEL - when save files were shared around like candy) On the other sites I have looked at, if you are flagged on old games, you get removed from that particular game leader board but still remain on the overall site leaderboard (unless you go over those two flagged game) You don't even have to hide your trophies. That would make much more sense here too and would save people being picked apart over an 8 year old game. Now cue the Slippery Slope people. 3 minutes ago, ZioFragolino said: I need an answer. If someone have a right order of trophies but his timestamp is unrealistically possible is flaggable? for example X game for the platinum need 250 hours of playing if one person do this game in 6 days but the order of the trophies are right but this one do that legit in 1 month (200 hours of playing) without sync. and put the save in his second console for sync. the trophies in a right order but in a lower time (6 days infact) for the fastest leaderboard is it considered to cheat? Because the are many people use this method for a lower completed time, do the game on a console A and save near to obtain the trophies and do the game all in this mod for sync. on the first console for a lower time. This is what is, and also what is not, considered flaggable (2nd post). Updated as of a few hours ago. Keep an eye out though, because I'm sure things will change again. Edited May 19, 2017 by damon8r351 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MesopithecusUK Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 6 minutes ago, damon8r351 said: Now cue the Slippery Slope people. To be fair, I did expect to be strung up and beaten with a stick for even making that suggestion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZioFragolino Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, damon8r351 said: Now cue the Slippery Slope people. This is what is, and also what is not, considered flaggable (2nd post). Updated as of a few hours ago. Keep an eye out though, because I'm sure things will change again. Yes i read this but there isn't my point, only this: If your timestamps are too close to each other, earned unrealistically before the release. If is possible i would implement this on the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbuk Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 15 minutes ago, Rach said: I feel this site should offer more leniency over old games that have been flagged (say Fifa 09, FUEL - when save files were shared around like candy) On the other sites I have looked at, if you are flagged on old games, you get removed from that particular game leader board but still remain on the overall site leaderboard (unless you go over those two flagged game) You don't even have to hide your trophies. That would make much more sense here too and would save people being picked apart over an 8 year old game. There are still the kind, helpful people on here but the problem is the toxic nature filters down from the top and it's hard to push back against. I've seen a lot of good people abandoning ship because they don't like the direction it's been going lately. The site does offer leniency, you're allowed to have cheated 2 games. A third gets you removed. If you've been using save files for more than 2 games well... why should we ever take you seriously? I have a tough time taking someone seriously after the first tbh. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegirlruka Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) 10 minutes ago, madbuk said: The site does offer leniency, you're allowed to have cheated 2 games. A third gets you removed. If you've been using save files for more than 2 games well... why should we ever take you seriously? I have a tough time taking someone seriously after the first tbh. Game saves were once included in trophy guides. The guides literally told you to download it. Edited May 19, 2017 by kuuhaku 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post MesopithecusUK Posted May 19, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, madbuk said: The site does offer leniency, you're allowed to have cheated 2 games. A third gets you removed. If you've been using save files for more than 2 games well... why should we ever take you seriously? I have a tough time taking someone seriously after the first tbh. Dangle some bait and the fish bite Yes...I am aware of that. You might wish to re-read my post, other sites allow that leniency without having to hide games (you just get removed off the particular game leaderboard "Why should we ever take you seriously?" Truth is...you shouldn't be taking anything gaming related that seriously Kudos for making me laugh though ? Edited May 19, 2017 by Rach 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damon8r351 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, kuuhaku said: Game saves were once included in trophy guides. The guides literally told you to download it. Brings to mind how generally accepted right now resetting the system clock to get a trophy is, and it too is included in trophy guides. Like in Flower and Journey, because most people aren't patient enough to wait 7 days for a trophy. So many people, myself included, are going to be fucked if that ever changes. Just something for others to keep in the back of their heads. Edited May 19, 2017 by damon8r351 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stardroid Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 It does not matter how game saves used to be looked upon, it matters how game saves are seen now. If you use a game save to unlock trophies, then you have not met the requirements yourself and you have unrightfully obtained the trophy and therefore you are to be excluded from those who did. And with good reason. Comparing it to setting the clock one week further ahead is far fetched to say the least. I would have to hide Flower (I think). I see very little to no harm in putting the system clock one week ahead. You can discuss these things, you can estimate the gravity of the requirement that you bypass. Putting the clock one week ahead is such a weak criteria and has no merit involved in it at all. Now, if you would need a total game time of 50 hours and you manipulate time one way or another on your system, that might be another discussion. That being said, the reason why game saves are not allowed is very obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post damon8r351 Posted May 19, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2017 (edited) Let me draw you guys a what if scenario: Sony changes the clock settings so that it can only be updated by connecting to the internet. You can't manually change the clock at all now unless you have some sort of CFW or homebrew software tool that's against the rules. Years down the road, it becomes standard that whoever doesn't earn the trophy on the date it says, or in the timespan it says, is a cheater. Also, you have thousands of people who did reset the clock back when you could do it, because it was something that didn't matter, enough that trophy guide writers felt justified in putting in their guides. Now you have someone systematically scanning games for people who earned those trophies years ago outside of the prescribed timespan, people coming back saying "It was allowed 8 years ago!" "Sorry, but that situation is indistinguishable from people using CFW to change the clock. Just hide the game." Now go look at your profile. Trust me, I have. I suggest people look at disputes with a little bit less of a black and white filter, maybe. Edited May 19, 2017 by damon8r351 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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