[Video] Dear Developers: How to Make a Better Trophy List

[Gotakibono]

 

Hey guys, here's a video of my friend and I moaning about trophies, and offering our advice to developers on what to avoid when making trophy lists for their games.

[Super_Mep]

I like what you guys have to say but some b roll gameplay footage of the games you are bringing up would help keep the eyes glued otherwise it's like watching a podcast or at least for me. Good example would be the boys at gamesack. Just food for thought but keep it up! 

[B1rvine]

I would say skill based multiplayer trophies are actually the best kind of trophy, especially if they're done in a way that prevent anti-boosting and actually require you to play the game as intended. I particularly love online cooperative modes, as these bring players (trophy hunters) together toward an objective. A good mix of skill based PvP, skill based coop, and trophies purely designed to test your determination (grinds) in lists are great.  Some good examples of great trophy lists are Uncharted 3, and Destiny 1.

 

Edit: And Multiplayer trophies are the easiest to detect if you're a cheater.

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by B1rvine

[JohnCenaSong-]

42 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

I particularly love online cooperative modes, as these bring players (trophy hunters) together toward an objective.

I do like me a good coop game at times, but at the same time it's the one thing I think makes the least sense for a trophy list generally, the idea of being dependent on another player for your achievements.

 

I like single player and multiplayer challenges since ultimately it's all on you but if the coop modes require another human partner and you can't just carry some random in coop matchmaking or an AI partner then I feel it probably doesn't belong.

 

Sometimes it's just a case of finding people to begin with for me, I had one super super easy achievement to do in a game but it explicitly required 4 players so I didn't get around to it until months after I had finished everything else .

 

It's not just being dependent on their ability either but their schedule, timezone etc.

[ladynadiad]

7 hours ago, Super_Mep said:

I like what you guys have to say but some b roll gameplay footage of the games you are bringing up would help keep the eyes glued otherwise it's like watching a podcast or at least for me. Good example would be the boys at gamesack. Just food for thought but keep it up! 

 

On top of that, I can barely hear one of them and the other guy is way loud.  My volume is all the way up and I can't hear half the video because one of the guys needs to speak up or there needs to be some edit work to improve that.

 

Though I actually thought of an idea for devs to do if Sony would make it doable to implement with regards to the talk about MP stuff.  I personally hate online trophies mucking up an otherwise good single player list and actively avoid games with MP.  I think a neat idea would be to have multiplayer be like standalone DLC that is completely separate from the rest of the game and the list isn't loaded until someone starts the MP (or in the case of MP focused games, a single player campaign could also be like this) but both lists come with the game.  That would probably make everyone happy and people would play MP because they want to, not because they feel they must for a plat.

 

I definitely agree with what I could barely hear in not making players replay a long game multiple times.  I definitely prefer lists that are doable in one playthrough, but easier in multiple when it comes to longer games.  Overall, I think the best trophy lists are more checklists of stuff I want to try and find. I have always felt a good trophy list should involve a player completing all the content, but devs also should do their best to make sure players aren't playing the same game over and over again to get it.  If they must play multiple times, there should be varying storylines to discover, not just an extra scene towards the end of the game that is a few minutes at most and they have to play 40 hours to get to it.

[thefourfoldroot]

6 hours ago, B1rvine said:

I would say skill based multiplayer trophies are actually the best kind of trophy, especially if they're done in a way that prevent anti-boosting and actually require you to play the game as intended. I particularly love online cooperative modes, as these bring players (trophy hunters) together toward an objective. A good mix of skill based PvP, skill based coop, and trophies purely designed to test your determination (grinds) in lists are great.  Some good examples of great trophy lists are Uncharted 3, and Destiny 1.

 

Edit: And Multiplayer trophies are the easiest to detect if you're a cheater.

 

But online coop requires me to speak with strangers. Most people are annoying, plus it’s awkward to just ignore the wife and family. Single player challenges for me. Maybe multiplayer when I was younger with fewer commitments and actual friends who still played games.

[trophynerd122]

7 hours ago, B1rvine said:

I would say skill based multiplayer trophies are actually the best kind of trophy, especially if they're done in a way that prevent anti-boosting and actually require you to play the game as intended. I particularly love online cooperative modes, as these bring players (trophy hunters) together toward an objective. A good mix of skill based PvP, skill based coop, and trophies purely designed to test your determination (grinds) in lists are great.  Some good examples of great trophy lists are Uncharted 3, and Destiny 1.

 

Edit: And Multiplayer trophies are the easiest to detect if you're a cheater.

 

A very good comment! Completely agree on the online coop mode thing you mentioned.

Most players with whom I start to play online stuff today are those that I already played with earlier on other games and these people are really great and I enjoy playing with them.

If it was not for coop online stuff every now and then, trophy hunting would be less enjoyable.

[Carol]

8 hours ago, B1rvine said:

I would say skill based multiplayer trophies are actually the best kind of trophy, especially if they're done in a way that prevent anti-boosting and actually require you to play the game as intended. I particularly love online cooperative modes, as these bring players (trophy hunters) together toward an objective. A good mix of skill based PvP, skill based coop, and trophies purely designed to test your determination (grinds) in lists are great.  Some good examples of great trophy lists are Uncharted 3, and Destiny 1.

 

Edit: And Multiplayer trophies are the easiest to detect if you're a cheater.

 

 I agree! MP trophies are the best and Uncharted 3 has the best trophy list ever made! It was an unforgettable and epic journey for me and the best and most fulfilling experience trophy hunting has ever given me! 

[N1NJ4_V4MP1R3]

10 hours ago, B1rvine said:

I would say skill based multiplayer trophies are actually the best kind of trophy, especially if they're done in a way that prevent anti-boosting and actually require you to play the game as intended. I particularly love online cooperative modes, as these bring players (trophy hunters) together toward an objective. A good mix of skill based PvP, skill based coop, and trophies purely designed to test your determination (grinds) in lists are great.  Some good examples of great trophy lists are Uncharted 3, and Destiny 1.

 

Edit: And Multiplayer trophies are the easiest to detect if you're a cheater.

 

My main problem with multiplayer trophies is that they put a shelf life on the trophy list. Plenty of great PS3 games that I can’t go back and clean up because of server closures (very close to Crysis 2 and Homefront for example). 
 

I understand that in most cases you have plenty of time to get the trophies but look at games like Driveclub which isn’t supported anymore. 
 

Thanks to all who watched the video by the way, we are having a lot of fun making them!

[Fish613]

Woah, 26 minute video?!  That's unnecessarily long. It really boils down to a couple things:

 

1. No Online Trophies

2. Games that are "always online" should not have trophies.

 

I know devs are required to HAVE to put a trophy list, even for the "always online" games. So taking that into account, I can change my second point to.....

 

2. "Always online" game's trophies should NEVER have the word "win" in them. What I mean is, all trophies should be participation trophies (yes, i know how that sounds lol). "complete x amount of matches" Those types. NOT "Win x amount of matches".

 

Obviously the problem with online trophies are servers getting shutdown. Difficulty has nothing to do with it. Nothing else has anything to do with it. The ONLY problem is servers shutting down.

 

That's it. Simple as that.

[AJ_Radio]

I avoid a lot of multiplayer for a good reason.... because I typically don't like playing with randoms whose main job is to fuck you over and make everything harder for you.

 

After pouring several thousand hours on Runescape and World of Warcraft, I just don't feel like spending a great deal of time in multiplayer for practically anything because I don't really like playing with a lot of other players.

 

In today's fucked up world and social media pretty much having a stranglehold on the younger generations, I'm more content with just playing what I like to play on my own. If I'm feeling up to it, I might do a little multiplayer in a game I'm interested in. Otherwise I mostly avoid stuff that requires more than just play a few hours of multiplayer, it's just a big waste of time for me.

 

In the past I enjoyed multiplayer. Nowadays I find it annoying. Especially when you're required to do multiplayer for trophies.

[AusLeviathan]

I don't think multiplayer trophies in itself are a problem, the real problem is the ridiculous level many of these trophies get set at in what's probably an attempt to try and keep the multiplayer alive for as long as possible.

 

Things like the 2K sports games where you're often required to win a ton of games in multiplayer despite the servers often being shut down after only a year to encourage people to move to the next installment are the worst example of this.

 

I don't mind trophies that require a long grind but putting it in a game where it will only be possible to attain it if you buy the game early in its life and put a lot of hours into it in a short period of time is just ridiculous.

[AJ_Radio]

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

I don't think multiplayer trophies in itself are a problem, the real problem is the ridiculous level many of these trophies get set at in what's probably an attempt to try and keep the multiplayer alive for as long as possible.

 

Friday the 13th is a pretty good example.

 

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

Things like the 2K sports games where you're often required to win a ton of games in multiplayer despite the servers often being shut down after only a year to encourage people to move to the next installment are the worst example of this.

 

2K is also in full support of microtransactions/lootboxes, apparent if you purchase their newer NBA 2K games. You can spend a fortune working towards the platinum and still not get it. I won't support any game that does that bullshit.

 

I mean yes, WWE 2K was notorious for this because you literally only had around a year and a half to get all the multiplayer done. Because of COVID-19 they actually extended the online for WWE 2K19, but the servers were shut down two months ago in July, meaning the platinum is now unobtainable.

 

One of the trophies was win 50 matches in Road to Glory, which was playing against other players in online. From what I heard there was no real way to boost that trophy, which meant if you sucked and you waited until the last month or two to do the online, you were pretty much screwed.

 

EA Sports was also bad for doing this, although I think their servers stay up for a bit longer. San Diego Studios who develops the MLB the Show baseball games exclusively for PlayStation also had this issue. I think in recent years they've gotten more lenient with actually keeping their servers up for longer so you have more of a chance to do the online.

 

2K? They couldn't care less. Most of everybody just plays the NBA 2K games purely because they love the sport and so they can dick around with Lebron James.

 

18 minutes ago, AusLeviathan said:

I don't mind trophies that require a long grind but putting it in a game where it will only be possible to attain it if you buy the game early in its life and put a lot of hours into it in a short period of time is just ridiculous.

 

I took a risk with Driveclub/Driveclub Bikes because I had a month before the servers shut. Thankfully I got everything including the Multiplayer Replay trophy in Bikes a good four weeks before the servers shut on March 31st this year.

 

I can definitely see Fall Guys losing a ton of popularly in the coming months. People just got it because it's a multiplayer battle royale game that is offered for free on PS Plus.

Edited September 3, 2020 by Spaz

[N1NJ4_V4MP1R3]

7 hours ago, Spaz said:

I can definitely see Fall Guys losing a ton of popularly in the coming months. People just got it because it's a multiplayer battle royale game that is offered for free on PS Plus.

I think the ball is in the devs court. If they play it right and keep things interesting, keep partnering with big names, I can see it lasting a good while. They need to keep it interesting as well by adding new maps semi regularly. 

[AJ_Radio]

7 hours ago, N1NJ4_V4MP1R3 said:

I think the ball is in the devs court. If they play it right and keep things interesting, keep partnering with big names, I can see it lasting a good while. They need to keep it interesting as well by adding new maps semi regularly. 

Since I avoid these types of games, I will never play Fall Guys. 
 

It’s just another Overwatch and Fortnite to me.