I would like to get your feedback (Scoring for contest)

[Stedde]

Last year I ran a couple for contest here on PSNProfiles with different setups and scoring.

I am now looking into the future and trying find a good scoring system based on how hard the games are to complete (get 100%).

 

So seeking some feedback from the community. ?

This is my thinking.

 

Scoring system

A trophy is not the same as a “trophy”.
Platinum in Assassin's Creed Valhalla should (and is) more worth than platinum in My Name Is Mayo.

A platinum is also a lot more worth than a bronze. Your commitment and hard work should pay off.

 

The points are therefore calculated based on how common they are on PSN (Sony) times the value of the trophy (Bronze 15p, Silver 30p, Gold 90p, Platinum 300p)

 

For example:

The silver trophy “Quick Tempered” in the game God of War is 22,1%. 

This would give the trophy a value of 53,7p (100-22,1 = 1,79* 30p).

 

The bronze trophy “Amazing Coverage” in the game Marvel’s Spiderman Remastered is 56,4%. 

This would give the trophy a value of 20,1p (100-56,4 = 1,34*15p)

 

All the trophies for a game will be the total value of the game.

 

For example:

2 442p Assassin's Creed Valhalla 

2 360p Final Fantasy 14             

2 257p Marvel’s Spiderman      

1 494p ThunderFlash             

 

Not that big of a different between these games, but they are quite different in how hard it is to get 100%.

So, the second layer I would like to add is how long did it take to get 100%?

 

By using data from https://howlongtobeat.com/ we take the “Median” value for “Completist” category.

Looking at games above:
1000h Final Fantasy 14   

132h Assassin's Creed Valhalla           

32h Marvel’s Spiderman      

1h ThunderFlash   

 

To get the "timefactor" we divided the hours above with 100.

 

10 Final Fantasy 14          

1,32 Assassin's Creed Valhalla     

0,32 Marvel’s Spiderman                 

0,01 ThunderFlash            

 

Combing these numbers we get the “real” value of a game.

2 360p x 10 = 23 600p Final Fantasy 14   

2 442p x 1,32 = 3 223p Assassin's Creed Valhalla              

2 257p x 0,32 = 722p Marvel’s Spiderman                 

1 494p x 0,01 = 14,9p ThunderFlash             

 

So games with highest value:

23 600p Final Fantasy 14             

3 223p Assassin's Creed Valhalla   

722p Marvel’s Spiderman                   

14,9p ThunderFlash            

 

This is quite different from just looking at the points provided by Sony or just looking at the first calculation.
From my point of view, this is more “fair”.

 

What do you think?

I would love to get your feedback!

[Inuty]

Hi Stedde,

 

Nice that you are working on the scoring System for your events and that you are trying to find a way to use howlongtobeat for the calculation! In my opinion this is a pretty fair System!

 

I always got stressed out in those events because i wanted to play long games which werent really giving much points In comparison to shorter games (nearly 100-200 points more). I was forced to play short games to try to be in a higher Ranking in the events which can be really exhausting. 

 

I think howlongtobeat is a really good site to get some valid time data on the completion of a game from many independent gamer. The guides here are not bad by all means, but it is a subjective opinion from the guide creater and maybe some Influence of a few people making a comment in the guide.

 

I am not sure if the points are sky rocketing with the data from PSN (Sony) in some kind of way for some games because if the platinum of a game is already Ultra rare in PSNP, i dont think a lot of normal gamers would achieve the platinum for the game. 

 

To make it even more fair you could think about a mechanism to exclude autopopping trophies for example. Maybe some kind of flag for the game of a player if the trophies are earned in seconds shortly after another.

 

I was participating in another event from @Fuwafuwa-no-Neko and the community he is in are calculating points automatically with a bot in the background based on the rarity of the trophies within PSNP. Maybe if he has the time and can give some Feedback on your thoughts for your events not sure who developed the bot for their events there but maybe he can provide a name that you can exchange some experience with them! If i remember correctly there was an discussion in regards integrating the length of a game as well (but i am not sure anymore).

[Stedde]

6 minutes ago, Inuty said:

 

To make it even more fair you could think about a mechanism to exclude autopopping trophies for example. Maybe some kind of flag for the game of a player if the trophies are earned in seconds shortly after another.

 

I was participating in another event from @Fuwafuwa-no-Neko and the community he is in are calculating points automatically with a bot in the background based on the rarity of the trophies within PSNP. Maybe if he has the time and can give some Feedback on your thoughts for your events not sure who developed the bot for their events there but maybe he can provide a name that you can exchange some experience with them! If i remember correctly there was an discussion in regards integrating the length of a game as well (but i am not sure anymore).

I like your idea about auto popping. From my perspective, only one version of the game can be used/counted. 
The same game but from different regions (EU,JP,etc) should not count. It's the same game, so there should only be one. 

Thanks for the tip about @Fuwafuwa-no-Neko !

[StraightVege]

Wouldn't mind participating in an event with this scoring criteria, since it would force me to finish some of the lengthier games I have lying around. I think it would have to run longer than your usual 1-month contests, though.

[seblegamer]

Hi stedde, thx for your PM to ask about some feedback !

 

It can be a good idea to take time needed to calcute points, but sadly it can "easily" be exploited and make it not so fair in the end.

 

For example, i recently wanted for myself GT Sport as platinum #500, and my last trophy was for getting level 50 with XP, so i put myself with just enough XP left to be done in 1 single race (taking me 5 min) to unlock platinum when i wanted too.

 

If i joined your contest before, i could pop a very difficult and grindy platinum (over 200 hours), worthing a looot of points i guess considering GT Sport needs a lot of time, and still it took me 5 min during your contest to get it ... ^^'

 

If you want it to be fair, you should only count games started during the contest, with no trophies acquired before it (that's the only way i see to avoid this kind of scenario ^^')

Edited January 20, 2022 by seblegamer

[Stedde]

Thanks @StraightVege & @seblegamer!

[MAUSZX]

I would use PSNprofiles % for the scoring rather than PSN. Also you said :

Quote

A platinum is also a lot more worth than a bronze. Your commitment and hard work should pay off

So Road Bustle Platinum is worth more than any bronze trophy of Dead by daylight?

[Stedde]

59 minutes ago, MAUSZX said:

So Road Bustle Platinum is worth more than any bronze trophy of Dead by daylight?

That is in interesting point:

82,3%        Road Bustle Platinum      1,17*300 = 351
31,4%        Dead by daylight(bronze) 1,68*15 = 25,2

I agree that does not seem fair, since the bronze in this case is much harder.
Maybe by adding an extra factor if it's common or Ultra Rare trophy aswell? 
In the example above the Platinum is "Common" and the Bronze (Rare).

That could hopefully even it out. 

Thanks for the feedback!
This was exactly what I was after. To get input and how it could be tweaked.

I will look into this and add a new suggestion.

[Stedde]

Any more tip/suggestion on games that are hard to get 100%?

[Inuty]

In regards to New trophies you should Integrate an age flag since the trophies will be 0% at the beginning before enough people had enough time to play it. If a new game / dlc Release the first one achieving the trophies will have a really low percentage and will get a lot of points if it is in your event time slot.

 

With an age flag of 2 weeks or so (not sure what would be a good time for that) this will be earned by more people and it would be fairer. Otherwise the participant with enough time on their Hand could just rush a new game and get a lot of points for it.

[ChuckieH]

I like the idea of rarity giving you more points and comparing games based on that. And I think that should be enough, but forgetting the metals. A plat in a newbie game should be less worth than a bronze in a legendary game.

Particularly, I use that to measure games difficulty: the divisions from PSN Profiles from common to ultra-rare and the points range from PSN (15 to 300). I also divide this by the traditional points, so harder games have a ratio greater than 1.

[Darling Baphomet]

I would go based on PSNP rarity, since most of us are trophy hunters and thus the stats are generally more accurate to how hard the game is. On PSN even many easy games have very low rarities. True Trophies does seem to be the most accurate site I've found thus far (many easy ultra rare plats like 8-Bit Invasion and Pox Nora are much less rare there), however importing rarities from there would likely be too much of a hassle - the trophy rarity is similar for most games anyway.

 

I don't think game length is a viable scoring method since not every game has good information available - same problem with the difficulties. You could reliably source them for major games, but what about tiny indie games with less than 50 players on the site? Also one has to consider how difficult it would be to manually add the information - it might just be more effort than it's worth.

 

One idea I had to even out trophy points was to give all trophies in a game the rarity of the platinum (or 100% if the game has no platinum) once you platinum / 100% it. That would solve the problem with many games having a ton of easy trophies, and then or two trophies that were a massive grind - the platinum could be rarer and much harder than another game, but still be worth less points if the other game had a more even distribution of hard trophies.

 

Neko's event also removed bronze / silver / gold / platinum trophy tiers altogether, since the tiers are rarely indicative of the quality of a trophy... I would keep the platinum though, as it's the marker that you've finished the game and that should have significance.

 

Also, since it was mentioned, Neko's event used Cowbear, a Discord trophy bot made by Froopy. She's been a bit busy lately so I'm not sure if she's able to take custom requests right now, but her bot already has the features laid out for rarity calculation, removing easy platinums and autopops, etc. Could save a lot of trouble.

 

Anyway, good luck with the scoring system! Honestly, fairly judging trophy hunting events seems like a pain in the ass. Every event I've been the top players just end up doing one cheesy thing or another (myself included.)

[Stedde]

6 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

One idea I had to even out trophy points was to give all trophies in a game the rarity of the platinum (or 100% if the game has no platinum) once you platinum / 100% it. That would solve the problem with many games having a ton of easy trophies, and then or two trophies that were a massive grind - the platinum could be rarer and much harder than another game, but still be worth less points if the other game had a more even distribution of hard trophies.

 

Interesting idea!
I did not really follow how do you score a game without platinum (just 100%, since then there is no value like that on a Platinum game to get a single rarity score from? )

Edit: Games with no platinum always only have 1 Gold? 
If that is the case, then maybe that could be use?

 

6 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

Anyway, good luck with the scoring system! Honestly, fairly judging trophy hunting events seems like a pain in the ass. Every event I've been the top players just end up doing one cheesy thing or another (myself included.)

That's why I like this forum to get input and challenge you all. ?

Edited January 23, 2022 by Stedde

[Darling Baphomet]

7 hours ago, Stedde said:

Interesting idea!
I did not really follow how do you score a game without platinum (just 100%, since then there is no value like that on a Platinum game to get a single rarity score from? )

Edit: Games with no platinum always only have 1 Gold? 
If that is the case, then maybe that could be use?

 

Well, for normal games you have a platinum that qualifies the game as 'complete'. For games without the platinum, there's still a rarity associated with how many people 100%ed the game even if there's no trophy, so once you get all the trophies in the game they would have the same rarity as the rarity of 100%ing the game.

[Evil_Joker88]

7 hours ago, Stedde said:

Edit: Games with no platinum always only have 1 Gold? 

If that is the case, then maybe that could be use?

Sadly no. The devs can make many variations like 20 bronze only or 2-3 silver and a 10 to 15 bronze or 3 gold plus 1 silver.

 

So far the rule was to get 300 points for a game with no Platinum and no dlc trophies but even that is not the case for all games anymore

Edited January 23, 2022 by Evil_Joker88

[scemopagliaccioh]

Bronzes  are worth 15, silver 30, gold 90, plat 300.

A DLC cannot have a plat, and its points range from 15 to 195, a  game with a platinum but no DLC has 1260-1350 points in total, games with no plat 45 to 315, excluding DLCs.

How they fill up, is up to those that decide, but you can have an entire trophy list without a silver, gold or bronze, as long as you meet those numbers.

Edited January 23, 2022 by scemopagliaccioh

[Stedde]

Got it @Evil_Joker88 and @scemopagliaccioh, Thanks!
I will go back to excel and test something that I will share and hopefully get some feedback on.

[Arcesius]

I think you are mixing too many factors. 

 

Since you are using "how long it takes to beat the game" as a criterion, then you can only have games count that have been completed in their entirety, right? So the only thing that individual trophies actually contribute to the scoring are their rarity (otherwise using the length of a game as a factor doesn't make any sense) 

If you only count completed games, then the metal of a trophy (bronze, silver, gold, platinum) actually should not matter at all. They don't mean anything. Many games will have gold trophies for beating their story-related content, and have bronzes for their most challenging content, while other games will go the other route. 

 

Also, I agree with using PSNP rarity over PSN rarity. 

 

And while obvious, this also needs to be said... Rarity is all we have, really, but it does not really work for determining the difficulty of a game.

[Stedde]

15 hours ago, Arcesius said:

And while obvious, this also needs to be said... Rarity is all we have, really, but it does not really work for determining the difficulty of a game.

Thanks for the feedback!

About your comment above, from your perspective what would determine how difficulty the game is? Any suggestion?
Volume of type of metal (Common, Rare, Ultra Rare)?

[Arethien]

On 2022/1/25 at 7:02 AM, Stedde said:

from your perspective what would determine how difficulty the game is?

Individual predispositions/skillset, time available to play, played with guides or without.

[Stedde]

So taking in your feedback, I have now a new suggestion. ?

 

As you mention there is no need to count all the trophies just the value of the Platinum. 

But I want to reward the one that manage to get an Ultra Rare a little more, so thinking about adding some extra points there.

 

For games that do not have a Platinum, the idea is that Gold trophy that is the rarest, will work as the value for the game BUT and worth 1/4 of a game with a Platinum.

 

So by using this calculation based on some games we have discussed above this is how it would look:
 

Game	Platinum Rarity	100%	Score	Ultra Rare	TotalScore	# ChristmasRun	#NeverAlone	#Spiderman
Final Fantasy 14	0,1	100	99,90	200	299,90	47,6	17,9	3,6
Dead by Daylight	0,2	100	99,80	200	299,80	47,6	17,8	3,6
Dead Cells	1,2	100	98,80	200	298,80	47,4	17,8	3,5
Assasin Creed Valhalla	2,4	100	97,60	200	297,60	47,2	17,7	3,5
Marvel's Spiderman Remastered	15,7	100	84,30		84,30	13,4	5,0	1,0
Never Alone	8,2	25	16,80		16,80	2,7	1,0
ThunderFlash	87,1	100	12,90		12,90	2,0
Christmas Run	93,7	100	6,30		6,30	1,0

 

100-Platinum Rarity = Score (if ultra Rare Platinum add an extra 200p) 

 

For example, you need to complete around 47 Games like Christmas Run, to get the same points as Final Fantasy 14.
Also, no Stack games are allowed. There can only be one version of a game and only one game are counted.