Digital Foundry: Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

[here4headshots]

It is insane to me how split the opinion is on returning to 30 from 60fps. Players like myself, for example, would consider "next gen" a failure if it were not able to deliver 60fps games consistently. To me, 60fps has been the biggest revelation of "next gen" features. I would easily give up whatever ray tracing devs are able to squeeze out of the hardware for a buttery 60fps game. Other gamers can care less about getting a 60fps experience. I wonder if this group of gamers are not playing as many action games, or choosing low sensitivity where the camera movement is not constantly exposing the low fps?

 

I was very close to purchasing a $2k OLED 120hz TV this holiday season, but hearing and seeing devs chosing to focus on fidelity over framerate has put a hard stop to that purchase decision. I need to see current gen go forward, not backwards before I drop a lot of money investing in this generation of gaming.

 

[mega-tallica]

On 11/16/2022 at 8:45 AM, AJ_Radio said:

 

I disagree with Horizon Zero Dawn, I think it was a good game with a solid story, but it was hyped to hell and back which is what I ultimately had a problem with. Far too many 9/10 and 10/10 reviews. I honestly believe the professional critics that work for prestige websites like IGN get paid more money if they leave a glowing review for a AAA game. Meanwhile an obscure indie title that few people will play will often get a bad review.

 

And it's not just the gaming industry it's practically all the entertainment mediums. General support has really gone down the shitter. People tell me I'm not old but I remember even 10 years ago you were able to hook up support with companies like Ubisoft. You could go into their forums and get help, and back in the PS2 era you had a telephone line for customer service. Try to get in contact with Ubisoft today, they made it intentionally hard for you to do so.

 

I have a desktop computer with Steam that can run modern indies and bigger budget games spanning from the 2000s to the early 2010's, but nothing beyond that. It ain't a gaming desktop and getting a decent one ain't cheap. Lots of parts to buy which cost several hundred dollars.

 

So far there's Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart, Returnal, Demon's Souls, Elden Ring, God of War: Ragnorok and maybe Horizon Forbidden West. But all the other big budget stuff simply doesn't appeal to me. For indies I can play on either PS4 or on Steam, doesn't make much of a difference since they seem to run the same on both platforms.

 

You're not old but old enough to witness the generational gap taking place. Industries adapt to accommodate the new generations who've always brought in their own set of opinions and values to things which in turn changes the world for better or for worse.

 

Customer service sucks now because companies now outsource it to countries like India and China because of the cheaper labor and due to the fact nobody wants to work in 1st world countries anymore, labor shortages are a real problem. Barely trained people with thick accents trying to work you through your problems is just a disaster every time you gotta get on the phone with a customer service rep for most companies now. Customer service is usually one of the first things to get cuts in times of out of control inflation and wage increases like we have right now. 

 

The PS4 had the same issue though, it took awhile for it to get off the ground and have a stout enough game catalog to make it worth having. The PS4 had a handful of good titles early but those first 2 years were mostly dead too. Cross-gen just stalls everything and we're seeing much longer gaps in between AAA releases now too which isn't helping boost the game catalog. Games that used to take only 2 years to release now take 4-5 years and sometimes more. God of War saw a 4 year gap, Uncharted was 5 years as was Horizon, Last of Us was 7 years, Rockstar being the kings of taking an eternity to release games, going on a decade with no new GTA, took 8 years for a new RDR. Even Ubisoft who used to be the only ones pumping out games consistently and they were criticized for it are now taking their sweet ol' time in between their releases now. I've grown to miss the annual Assassin's Creed now that we're not getting one every year anymore. It made for a good game to play amidst these massive gaps in between other major releases. 

 

The result of all this is less games than what we had in the past and the payoff from waiting all this extra time is usually not worth it in the end. 

[Bratinov]

I honestly don’t see how 30 fps is still a thing and accepted by so many. 

We deserve better.

 

[AJ_Radio]

17 hours ago, Z1MZUM said:

You're not old, The pandemic has affected every business as far as to say that the quality of life in general has gone down hill. I am at work right now and running out of blood tubes, waiting on my order from the Netherlands because I can't locally find this basic science tool. It's every day of every week in a professional environment that people here in Australia are living a "Can't give a fuck" attitude, I think we enjoyed the years off and getting paid for nothing too much. Well I didn't, I work in a Lab and didn't have a single day off. The billionaires of this world probably aren't happy losing money, we aren't happy about being overcharged for everything due to greed. Well there's Putin but ffs what is that shit monkey to any civilized human?

 

I rant sorry.

 

I found Horizon Zero dawn boring, I felt like I was lumbering around the unpopular kid with a runny nose and diarrhea. Yes Diversity but I'm not a charity worker.

 

Elden Ring is great but I have little reason to be hyped this Gen, since the beginning of time my PC has always been more powerful but that's not the point. We have little AAA titles, We have massive hardware shortage. I'm honestly willing to say this gen is a dud, I'm also willing to say Get back to work lazy fucks, the honeymoon is over.

 

It saddens me to say I'm looking forward to Like A Dragon Ishin more then any other title right now.

 

I also have consoles dating back to the stoneage, Currently Playing Tony Hawk Underground on original XB.

34 isn’t old, but that’s old enough to witness multiple console generations. 
 

I started work at 16, so that’s over half a lifetime ago. And I can easily tell you that people are more polarized, more prone to emotion, more easily manipulated. As much crap as we’ve given the Boomers over the years, there’s little to no doubt that things are a bit more stable when more of them were working. Millennials are more easily prone to emotion and yes, this is me witnessing them firsthand, because they are my peers after all. 
 

Back to topic, Horizon Zero Dawn was a good game but it wasn’t a masterpiece or an exceptionally stellar game. Sure, it had excellent graphics, and with it now available on PC it looks phenomenal. It does nothing new, because Assassin’s Creed and other franchises already laid down the groundwork. Horizon just took what worked and made it better, it didn’t innovate anything. That is my main issue with PS5 generation games. 
 

One of the developers at Insomniac Games who worked on Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart admitted that the industry is no longer innovating as much as it is fine tuning already existing features. I grew up thinking that each console generation was going to do something new and exciting. Something never done before. With the PS5 you already know what you’re expecting before you even start a game. The exposure from the internet and people constantly leaking footage when the games aren’t even released has ruined a lot of my excitement. 
 

Combine all this with the chip shortage and certain people hoarding PS5 consoles (to sell them overly priced for profits) and you end up with what we have today. 
 

@mega-tallica Posting this from a phone so can’t really multiquote. 
 

You’re only a few years younger than me but you’ve seen enough changes to notice a shift. 
 

I think we can both agree the PS2 was hands down probably the greatest generation not only because we had awesome games but the games themselves were sold by word of mouth. Every now and then I discover hidden gems on the PS2 that I never discovered before. With a library as big as that as the PS2, there were a lot of bad games, but the amount of solid AAA titles of the time and the hidden gems made up for them. 
 

Today we’re lucky just to have stuff like Elden Ring and God of War: Ragnarok, everything else doesn’t interest me. Even just seven years ago, we had more promising AAA titles especially given the first two years of the PS4 lifecycle were a bit weak. 
 

The people out there saying PS5 is the greatest gaming generation are probably younger than me. When you’re just 14 - 16 years old you think a lot of things are wonderful because you have had no life experience. But as someone who moved out, moved back in, moved back out and moved elsewhere with friends I think it’s clear that for a number of us who are older, gaming doesn’t have the same charm that it used to. You discover there is more to life than just gaming. You discover that companies like Blizzard Entertainment that you adored as a kid aren’t always as they seem. The gaming industry is just as cutthroat, dishonest, disloyal and dirty as Hollywood itself is. Pretty much every big entertainment medium operates in its fashion. 
 

I don’t like NFTs. I hate the idea of games being a service, which they technically are at this point since physical games are largely coffee discs with no updates. I hate that less features allow you to play naturally and more features require that you pay more actual money, such as NBA 2K games. 
 

I want to be excited about the PS5, but I’m also not. It’s already a ‘been there, done that’ sort of thing. 
 

Sorry for the long rambling.

Edited November 17, 2022 by AJ_Radio

[SoliDeoGloriaIHS]

I have absolutely nothing to add.  Just came here to see what everyone has to say.

[PhyrxianLibrarin]

Honestly, once I started playing at 60fps, I found it really hard to go back to 30. Somehow it's noticeable, even though if you asked me to point out what was different, I'd probably struggle. It's the same thing with turning motion blur on/off, it just feels better. As mentioned, I'd much rather have 60fps and slightly worse lighting, than see gorgeous ray tracing at half the framerate.

 

At least with Plague Tale Requiem, there's an actual reason of "we couldn't do both 60fps and hundreds of rats on screen at once, so we made a choice." I'd rather developers say that than "we stuck to 30 because we just couldn't be bothered to make it any higher."

[PandemicOdin]

The thing is, there is no real motion on a game like Plague Tale that playing the game in 30FPS isn't really a big deal for me but if we had a 60 option on that game and then I tried to play 30 its an absolute non-starter. Even all the single player Sony games, Ratchet/HFW/GoWR, I start all those games on performance since thats my console preset and then like 3-4 hours in I remember that I should at least see what the fidelity looks like and lemme tell you. The slight bit of graphical enhancement is just not worth the game feeling like its moving in water. It is so incredibly jarring to go from 60 to 30 in that sense. 

 

I really hope developers prioritize performance and FPS this generation, games can look pretty sure, but they have to be able to run better. I say this knowing full well I'm about to play Pokemon in like 8 hours at like 15FPS lmao

[the1andonly654]

1 hour ago, PandemicOdin said:

The thing is, there is no real motion on a game like Plague Tale that playing the game in 30FPS isn't really a big deal for me but if we had a 60 option on that game and then I tried to play 30 its an absolute non-starter. Even all the single player Sony games, Ratchet/HFW/GoWR, I start all those games on performance since thats my console preset and then like 3-4 hours in I remember that I should at least see what the fidelity looks like and lemme tell you. The slight bit of graphical enhancement is just not worth the game feeling like its moving in water. It is so incredibly jarring to go from 60 to 30 in that sense.

I just finished a Plague Tale: Requiem on XSX, which is supposedly more stable in the framerate department and it literally took me three few hours long sessions to fully adjust back to 30 fps, after playing in 60 for the last 5 months. In the first hour my eyes felt weird, like I had a hangover or something and it was physically uncomfortable to some degree - and I don't even exaggerate, I was surprised by it tbh. A game like Plague Tale doesn't need 60, I was fine with 30 by the time I was done with the game, but the transition is rough to say the least. 

 

Once you adjust, 30fps is fine. It still stings the eyes when there are faster camera movements, like when Amicia is catching Hugo when jumping from a ledge and the camera pans faster than usual. And imo the game would benefit more from having less rats/npcs and more fluidity to better show the destruction in some of the chase sequences. 

 

Frankly, this game made me realize that I'm less fine with 30 than I thought I was, despite the fact that  - again - it doesn't need 60fps. 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2022 by the1andonly654

[Darling Baphomet]

On 11/17/2022 at 4:19 AM, here4headshots said:

It is insane to me how split the opinion is on returning to 30 from 60fps. Players like myself, for example, would consider "next gen" a failure if it were not able to deliver 60fps games consistently. To me, 60fps has been the biggest revelation of "next gen" features. I would easily give up whatever ray tracing devs are able to squeeze out of the hardware for a buttery 60fps game.

 

Yeah, ray tracing is purely a marketing gimmick this generation. Pre-baked lighting can look almost as good, especially since most PS5 RT games have ray traced lighting but not reflections. It's almost never worth the hit in framerate and resolution.

 

On 11/17/2022 at 4:19 AM, here4headshots said:

I wonder if this group of gamers are not playing as many action games, or choosing low sensitivity where the camera movement is not constantly exposing the low fps?

 

Maybe they sit far away from their TVs or have tiny ones. I noticed recently that I don't notice 30fps nearly as much on the Switch, presumably because the gaps between frames are less noticeable on a tiny screen.

 

On 11/17/2022 at 4:19 AM, here4headshots said:

was very close to purchasing a $2k OLED 120hz TV this holiday season, but hearing and seeing devs chosing to focus on fidelity over framerate has put a hard stop to that purchase decision. I need to see current gen go forward, not backwards before I drop a lot of money investing in this generation of gaming.

 

It might be worth it just for 40 fps games. 40fps doesn't sound impressive on paper, but it is the halfway point between 30 and 60. Definitely a disappointing compromise, though. But at least most major MP games that I've seen offer 120fps modes sp far, e.g. Destiny 2 and Overwatch 2. I believe Apex Legends is adding one as well?

[here4headshots]

4 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Yeah, ray tracing is purely a marketing gimmick this generation. Pre-baked lighting can look almost as good, especially since most PS5 RT games have ray traced lighting but not reflections. It's almost never worth the hit in framerate and resolution.

 

 

Maybe they sit far away from their TVs or have tiny ones. I noticed recently that I don't notice 30fps nearly as much on the Switch, presumably because the gaps between frames are less noticeable on a tiny screen.

 

 

It might be worth it just for 40 fps games. 40fps doesn't sound impressive on paper, but it is the halfway point between 30 and 60. Definitely a disappointing compromise, though. But at least most major MP games that I've seen offer 120fps modes sp far, e.g. Destiny 2 and Overwatch 2. I believe Apex Legends is adding one as well?

 

Agreed. Current gen hardware is not ready for fully implemented ray tracing. I'm fine with the limited capacity we've seen so far. Again, so long as it's not a trade on 60 fps. 

 

I'm sure there are many factors that can cause some people to not see or "feel" the difference in 30 vs 60 fps. Could be a combination of TV/monitor size and sitting distance, or it could be individual physical perception. Our brains interpret movement and motion differently. It may be an either you have it or you don't scenario for these people. In this case, devs would go for the lowest common denominator, which would be visual fidelity, leaving the visually blessed people out in the cold lol. 

 

I know what you're saying about the 40fps option on OLED 120hz TVs. I have seen 40 vs 30 and I can tell 40 feels closer to 60 than 30. My confidence is still shook that we may not even see this compromise on a wide scale, and devs sit us back down squarely in a 30fps standard. I need to see what they do and what direction the industry goes. $2k is still a lot of money to me lol. 

[here4headshots]

On 11/17/2022 at 10:50 AM, Bratinov said:

I honestly don’t see how 30 fps is still a thing and accepted by so many. 

We deserve better.

 

 

Hard agree. I see a lot of people saying "everyone was fine with 30fps last gen, and now it's not good enough anymore?" I have actually heard this argument from people (edit- content creators, gamers in forums/reddit, YouTube comments section etc). Blows my mind. 

 

I may be misremembering, but I swear even PS2/Xbox and PS3/Xbox 360 generations had a good amount of 60fps titles. The end of PS3/360 era, beginning the PS4/Xbox One generation brought the standard down to 30fps. Generally, you can no longer buy a new TV that doesn't have at least a 60hz refresh rate. Why are games being created on new consoles targeting 30?? 

Edited November 24, 2022 by here4headshots
Edit to add where I've seen "people" make the 30fps claim should be good enough

[Conor]

Every game going forward should have a 60fps option even if it means 1080p resolution or reduced graphical features as a sacrifice, for me it is worth it. Like all of you I too grew up playing games at 30fps or less but times have changed.

[Cephlin]

For those who cannot tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps, it is a good idea to go watch a video comparison side by side and see if you still can't tell.

 

The problem with noticing is that once you do notice, it can be hard to NOT notice. Hence why 60fps elitists exist, since it just hurts their eyes to watch 30fps now they are used to it.

 

Anyway, here is a video that shows the difference:

 

 

[Z1MZUM]

Sony kind of went a little cheap on the gpu, However the cost of the PS5 is pretty reasonable considering so we don't want a $2000 console anyway. I don't even use RTX on a 3080 TI so I don't care that much tbh, I do however get at least 120hz on every game except the frame locked titles like Elden Ring. We should see potential in the PS5 though customization. I've had mine now since day 1 (Really day 3 as it was couriered from Tokyo) and tbh I'm happy with PS4 games. All industries have been affected badly by Covid so that's where we are at.

 

If DF ever has the balls to just say we think PC is better then we won't see this stuff, I think they are scared of boobies.

[Vault-TecPhantom]

14 hours ago, Cephlin said:

For those who cannot tell the difference between 30fps and 60fps, it is a good idea to go watch a video comparison side by side and see if you still can't tell.

 

The problem with noticing is that once you do notice, it can be hard to NOT notice. Hence why 60fps elitists exist, since it just hurts their eyes to watch 30fps now they are used to it.

 

Anyway, here is a video that shows the difference:

 

 

 

I'm not convinced they "don't notice". I think they just don't care - which is a perfectly valid opinion - it's just not the same.

It's like saying one doesn't notice the difference between blue and purple... 

[Darling Baphomet]

5 hours ago, Vault-TecPhantom said:

I'm not convinced they "don't notice". I think they just don't care - which is a perfectly valid opinion - it's just not the same.

 

Yeah, I mean the problem is they keep trying to justify their not caring by claiming that the difference between 30-60 is imperceptible and similarly bold statements.

[Sifferino]

Look, I just watched the video and I notice… barely any difference. Let’s say within a margin of error. I couldn’t tell which is which if it wasn’t labelled, probably. i never have with any similar videos either. I also showed the video to my (non-gaming) girlfriend, ditto. We both can’t imagine anyone claiming 30 fps is unplayable or anything like that.

So yeah, can’t we just agree to disagree? I am 41 years old, wear glasses. So does my girlfriend. It’s entirely possible that these older eyes actually can’t see a big difference. I can certainly imagine younger eyes can see the difference clearly. What I really hate is to be called a liar, blind or whatever kind of insult just because we don’t share the same experience. Stop it.

 

[Slava]

@Sifferino 

 

Previously in the thread, people have mentioned two possible things that make both framerates look similar:

- monitor refresh rate set to 30hz (makes both look 30fps)

- motion smoothing mode on a tv turned on (makes both look 60fps)

 

[Cephlin]

Half of the problem isn’t even with seeing the difference, it’s the fact that the controls are half as responsive at 30fps and that really can make it unplayable. Especially when it’s not even a consistent 30 and drops here and there, it can be very frustrating having to repeat something because the frame rate stutters
 

If you can’t tell the difference, that’s fine, but  it doesn’t hurt to know that it is glaringly obvious to some people even if it’s not you

[Darling Baphomet]

9 hours ago, Slava said:

@Sifferino 

 

Previously in the thread, people have mentioned two possible things that make both framerates look similar:

- monitor refresh rate set to 30hz (makes both look 30fps)

- motion smoothing mode on a tv turned on (makes both look 60fps)

 

 

Might also be a matter of screen size / distance. I've noticed that on my TV which I use as a monitor and sit right in front of the 30 fps / 60 fps difference is much more noticeable than playing on my Switch OLED. Presumably because there's more screen and thus it's easier to see the missing gaps between frames.

[here4headshots]

On 11/27/2022 at 3:19 PM, Sifferino said:

Look, I just watched the video and I notice… barely any difference. Let’s say within a margin of error. I couldn’t tell which is which if it wasn’t labelled, probably. i never have with any similar videos either. I also showed the video to my (non-gaming) girlfriend, ditto. We both can’t imagine anyone claiming 30 fps is unplayable or anything like that.

So yeah, can’t we just agree to disagree? I am 41 years old, wear glasses. So does my girlfriend. It’s entirely possible that these older eyes actually can’t see a big difference. I can certainly imagine younger eyes can see the difference clearly. What I really hate is to be called a liar, blind or whatever kind of insult just because we don’t share the same experience. Stop it.

 

 

I really dislike these comparison videos because they do not convey the smoothness and responsive feeling while you play the games. *Especially* when dealing with fast moving characters, camera movement in 3rd person games, and games that require precise timing. I'm your age and I do not doubt your experience and opinion. I just don't like these side by side videos while the controller is not in your hand. I definitely agree no one should be insulting you in any way. 

[AJ_Radio]

On 11/27/2022 at 0:19 PM, Sifferino said:

Look, I just watched the video and I notice… barely any difference. Let’s say within a margin of error. I couldn’t tell which is which if it wasn’t labelled, probably. i never have with any similar videos either. I also showed the video to my (non-gaming) girlfriend, ditto. We both can’t imagine anyone claiming 30 fps is unplayable or anything like that.

So yeah, can’t we just agree to disagree? I am 41 years old, wear glasses. So does my girlfriend. It’s entirely possible that these older eyes actually can’t see a big difference. I can certainly imagine younger eyes can see the difference clearly. What I really hate is to be called a liar, blind or whatever kind of insult just because we don’t share the same experience. Stop it.

Proof that age does not convert to wisdom or having the ability to more readily accept being able to agree to disagree. 
 

I don’t even have a leg in this discussion to be honest because I don’t have a PS5, if I did I would of pointed out ray tracing and 4K. AAA games for the most part are 30 FPS on PS4 and PS4 Slim. PS4 Pro allows greater capability but you have to sacrifice something to gain 60 FPS, and vice versa. PS5 allows 60 FPS on 4K, so we can expect this to be the general standard moving forward. 
 

Stop being as defensive, and just look at these debates with a more neutral outlook.

[Vault-TecPhantom]

I'm gonna start Witcher 3 PS5 version after my next three games and I have to say the ray tracing mode looks amazing but it's in 30 fps

I hope they release a 60 fps ray tracing mode for consoles by the time I get to it.  

I really do not like this trend of ray tracing OR higher frame rate. At least Insomniac sort of try to do both. 

[here4headshots]

16 hours ago, AJ_Radio said:

Proof that age does not convert to wisdom or having the ability to more readily accept being able to agree to disagree. 
 

I don’t even have a leg in this discussion to be honest because I don’t have a PS5, if I did I would of pointed out ray tracing and 4K. AAA games for the most part are 30 FPS on PS4 and PS4 Slim. PS4 Pro allows greater capability but you have to sacrifice something to gain 60 FPS, and vice versa. PS5 allows 60 FPS on 4K, so we can expect this to be the general standard moving forward. 
 

Stop being as defensive, and just look at these debates with a more neutral outlook.

 

My brother in Light, while I agree with your opinion on "next gen" resolution and framerate standards, your comment towards Sifferino are personal and somewhat rude. He conceded that his age and eyesight may be a factor in not being able to perceive the difference in 30 and 60fps, and that younger eyes may be able to see the difference more clearly, AND that he doesn't like being called a liar, blind, or have any personal insults thrown his way. Then what do you do? You tell him "age does not convert to wisdom" which sounds a bit like an insult to me and you tell him to stop being defensive and to look at these discussions objectively. He sounded defensive because he was being attacked, and outside of that his comments were very neutral. He literally said agree to disagree. 

 

I'm with you on never going back to 30fps, but your comments should be about the topic and not another forum member's age or lack of wisdom. 

 

I know I'm new here and I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes here. Just thought it is important to stay on the discussion and not on each other. 

[mrmivo]

On 27/11/2022 at 9:19 PM, Sifferino said:

I am 41 years old, wear glasses. So does my girlfriend. It’s entirely possible that these older eyes actually can’t see a big difference. I can certainly imagine younger eyes can see the difference clearly.

I am older than this, wear glasses, and the difference is very visible to me. More importantly, though, it’s how 30 fps games “feel” compared to 60 or higher fps. There is a distinct sensation of sluggishness that only gets worse the bigger the display is.

 

I don’t believe age has much to do with this. It’s more likely that it’s about what you’re used to. I have been a computer gamer since I was a young teen and the PS5 is my first regular home console since the PS1 (I only had one game for it, because I stayed with computers). One of the reasons I picked up the system is because the hardware is now perfectly capable of at least 10800/60 fps. It’s not the only reason, but a significant one. Seeing that some developers fall back on 30 fps so early in the generation is a little disappointing for me. I won’t buy any game that doesn’t at least have a performance mode with 60 fps, which is really the only thing I can do.

 

I don’t disbelieve that some people genuinely can’t see the difference, but if you’ve spent years playing games at 60, 144 and more recently 165 fps, it’s a glaringly and painfully obvious difference. For me, the difference between 60 and 120+ fps isn’t actually nearly as significant as between 30 and 60. I’m happy with 60, at least for what I play (no competitive shooters).

 

I also don’t think the hardware is the main reason why some developers can’t manage to implement a 1080p/60 performance mode. Games like Forbidden West show what is possible.

Edited December 17, 2022 by mrmivo