LeeMcD- Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 A German court has ruled that parents can’t have their sons circumcised on religious grounds in a move which has angered Muslim and Jewish groups in the country.The court in Cologne decided that a legal guardian’s authority over a child does not allow them to subject them to the procedure, which the court called minor bodily harm, reports The Financial Times Deutschland. Neither does religious freedom, which is protected by law in Germany, give grounds for such decisions to be taken for the children, the ruling says. The court was considering a case against a Muslim doctor, who performed circumcision on a four-year-old boy at his parents’ request. Two days after the procedure bleeding started, after which the boy had to be taken to hospital. German authorities learned about the incident and launched a criminal investigation against the doctor. The initial court trial ruled that there was no violation of the law, but the prosecutor’s office took the case to the Cologne district court. The decision sets a precedent, which may affect medical practice across the country. The possible ban on circumcision provoked outrage among Jewish and Muslim organizations in Germany, where every year thousands of boys are circumcised in their early years at the request of parents. They regard the ban as a "serious interference in the right to freedom of religion." But none of the organizations so far has commented on the verdict, explaining they first need to study thoroughly the reasoning of the judges. Some experts however don’t rule out that the right for religiously motivated circumcision will be considered by the Federal Constitutional Court. [source] Yes it infringes on people's right to religion, but it's your religion, not your childs. Your child didn't pick that religion, you chose it for them and it was you who chose to subject him to the procedure. Once the kid is old enough to make his own decisions I'm sure that slicing off part of his dick isn't going to be one of them. I'm actually surprised that this hasn't happened before now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSXtreme_ Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it," -George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidmarkgn Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) [source] Yes it infringes on people's right to religion, but it's your religion, not your childs. Your child didn't pick that religion, you chose it for them and it was you who chose to subject him to the procedure. Once the kid is old enough to make his own decisions I'm sure that slicing off part of his dick isn't going to be one of them. I'm actually surprised that this hasn't happened before now. I'm gonna set the religious side of this debate aside. Nothing pleasant ever results from a religious debate and people just get further entrenched in their beliefs. My concern is parents losing their ability to parent to the government. One of the MAJOR aspects of parenting is making decisions for your children when they are too young to do it themselves. Circumcision isn't always a decision people make with religion in mind. There are certain medical benefits that come with the procedure as well. I'm just not a fan of any government deciding they know what's better for a kid than their parents. If I'm reading the article correctly it was ONE incident that spawned a complete takeover by the government... that scares me. Update: I didn't notice that the article said "on religious grounds"... my bad. Guess my point is moot. Edited June 27, 2012 by skidmarkgn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSXtreme_ Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Before all ya'll Americans get all high and mighty...it's already been attempted recently here in the U.S. This just went on last year in SF. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-07-27-san-francisco-circumcision-ban_n.htm yeah California!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidmarkgn Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Before all ya'll Americans get all high and mighty...it's already been attempted recently here in the U.S. This just went on last year in SF. http://www.usatoday....ision-ban_n.htm yeah California!!! "anti-circumcision activist" Only in California, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreakon139 Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 Lots of happy women in Germany about 20 or so years from now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Lilith Posted June 27, 2012 Share Posted June 27, 2012 "anti-circumcision activist" Only in California, lol. God, I hate how my state has become the laughing stock of the country because of all these ridiculous "laws" and movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nasty_Rory Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Why is female circumcision (another religious "act") looked upon as mutilation and abhorred by the majority and male circumcision isnt? I know there are certain reasons that one or the other have to be undertaken from a medical perspective, but just because your dad/mum and your granda/granny had some madman perform a minor surgery to the end of their penis/clitoris when they were kids isnt a reason for them doing it to you. I have seen the results of female circumcision (20 years after the fact) and to be honest it wasnt pretty, and the "victim" was very shy about her lady parts as they simply didnt "look right" So, as far as I am concerned, butchery should be kept to animals and if people want to mutilate themselves, then thats fair enough, but no one else should be able to do it to them without their informed consent. So if your other half prefers the "matt finish" to the "gloss finish" on a cock......... *walks off humming " the first cut is the deepest......" Edited June 28, 2012 by Nasty_Rory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielVT Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Lots of happy women in Germany about 20 or so years from now. Hah, I love it!!! Anyway, this is an uncomfortable topic to discuss, but I am Christian, but I agree with this law. People don't get that circumcision was just in the Old Testament, and after Jesus died for all of our sins, circumcision became obsolete. Thank God my parents made the right choice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent-Oranje Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) It takes 3-4 weeks to fully heal for an adult (in other words 3-4 weeks before you can have enjoyable sex) If it was me I'd want to get it over and done with before I an have the ability to remember. Religious reasons or not, the parents are saving the kids that torture.. Edited June 28, 2012 by Agent-Oranje Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCChrono Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 *walks off humming " the first cut is the deepest......" Thanks. I can hear this song the same way again. On topic, parents, for better or worse, get to decide all kinds of things about their kids they may not agree with. I think part of the reason kids are getting more out of control lately is because parents are having their hands tied by politics and can't smack them around a little more and decide what's best for them. Would I like to have the choice of whether that's done to me? I guess so, but I'd also want to be able to choose where I grew up (a foreign accent would be better for flirting), my skin tone, my genetics, etc. Your parents gave you life and hopefully did what they thought was best for you. I really don't see why the fact religion influenced them should matter. Oh, and we have those activists in Oregon too. It's small group in my town, but they unfortunately come off as crazy most of the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSXtreme_ Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 It is better to tolerate that rare instance of a parent’s refusing to let his child be educated, than to shock the common feelings by a forcible transportation and education of the infant against the will of his father.-Thomas Jefferson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCChrono Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 With that example it is the child that will decide how educated he/she becomes. All the schooling in the world can't help someone who refuses to learn, and really dragging the kid to school won't mean anything if the parents influence them to ignore all that mumbo-jumbo teacher talk. So, if the parent is going to try and deter the child from learning, better the kid stay home and learn other skills that will hopefuly help them in the future (trade skills in the family business perhaps) than waste everyone's time and money on a kid is doomed to fail. I'd hate to see what I'd be like if my parents didn't let me go to school, but I wouldn't know any better anyway. And I'd probably still be happy. Short answer: Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myers Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So if a 5 year old breaks his arm, his parents can't sing the consent form for surgery until he's old enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSXtreme_ Posted June 28, 2012 Share Posted June 28, 2012 So if a 5 year old breaks his arm, his parents can't sing the consent form for surgery until he's old enough? No...as long as the government thinks it should be taken care of, it's OK. Without having 2 good arms, that child might become a burden on the government instead of its servant. We couldn't have that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliot Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) "Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it," -George Santayana I don't see how this quote is relevant at all. It is better to tolerate that rare instance of a parent’s refusing to let his child be educated, than to shock the common feelings by a forcible transportation and education of the infant against the will of his father. -Thomas Jefferson Why should parents have the right to ruin their child's lives? It's better to not let a child's mind go utterly to waste just so his ignorant father's selfish ends can be achieves. It's the state's job to protect people, and this legislation achieves that. It is, therefore, a good thing. Just because a person says a thing, that doesn't mean it's valid. Edited June 29, 2012 by Pie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSXtreme_ Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I don't see how this quote is relevant at all. Wow...what a way to completely validate my point. Good job...LMAO Why should parents have the right to ruin their child's lives? It's better to not let a child's mind go utterly to waste just so his ignorant father's selfish ends can be achieves. It's the state's job to protect people, and this legislation achieves that. It is, therefore, a good thing. Just because a person says a thing, that doesn't mean it's valid. I guess some people need to be babysat...some people want it...grown adults should despise it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanielVT Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 (edited) Thanks. I can hear this song the same way again. On topic, parents, for better or worse, get to decide all kinds of things about their kids they may not agree with. I think part of the reason kids are getting more out of control lately is because parents are having their hands tied by politics and can't smack them around a little more and decide what's best for them. Would I like to have the choice of whether that's done to me? I guess so, but I'd also want to be able to choose where I grew up (a foreign accent would be better for flirting), my skin tone, my genetics, etc. Your parents gave you life and hopefully did what they thought was best for you. I really don't see why the fact religion influenced them should matter. Oh, and we have those activists in Oregon too. It's small group in my town, but they unfortunately come off as crazy most of the time. An excellent opinion and an astute observation of today's life. I don't see how this quote is relevant at all. Why should parents have the right to ruin their child's lives? It's better to not let a child's mind go utterly to waste just so his ignorant father's selfish ends can be achieves. It's the state's job to protect people, and this legislation achieves that. It is, therefore, a good thing. Just because a person says a thing, that doesn't mean it's valid. Agreed, it is a good thing. Circumcision is antiquitated and not longer necessary (as I previously mentioned). If we look at it religiously, I do not think that God approves of it any longer. It is just awful and seems similar to the far worse FGM. In other news (and no I am by no means anti-Semetic, but it has to suck to be a male Jew!!!) Ouch! Edited June 29, 2012 by DanielVT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myers Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 There is some evidence that circumcision has health benefits, including: A decreased risk of urinary tract infections. A reduced risk of sexually transmitted diseases in men. Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners. Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin). Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location). Circumcision also makes it easier to keep the end of the penis clean. http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/guide/circumcision I think those benefits sound nice 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 When I had my Son we weighed the benefits of circumcision and decided that overall it was better to have him circumcised. I think the only involvement the government should have in our personal decisions is when obvious abuse is taking place. Otherwise it should be up to the parent to make the decision for their child. Parker 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTIOX_ Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 [source] Yes it infringes on people's right to religion, but it's your religion, not your childs. Your child didn't pick that religion, you chose it for them and it was you who chose to subject him to the procedure. Once the kid is old enough to make his own decisions I'm sure that slicing off part of his dick isn't going to be one of them. I'm actually surprised that this hasn't happened before now. i agree! i feel the same about kids being baptisted/ christianed etc before they are old enough to make theyre own choice about religion!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCChrono Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 i agree! i feel the same about kids being baptisted/ christianed etc before they are old enough to make theyre own choice about religion!!! Can't the child just denounce the religion and poof the baptism/whatever is null? My parents actually forgot to baptize me (I will never understand how that happened...) until I was like 12. By that time I decided I didn't agree with their religion and refused. So now when we don't get along I get to remind them that they better enjoy the time we have together cause their God will send me to hell when I die. Yeah, I'm twisted like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeMcD- Posted June 29, 2012 Author Share Posted June 29, 2012 Can't the child just denounce the religion and poof the baptism/whatever is null? My parents actually forgot to baptize me (I will never understand how that happened...) until I was like 12. By that time I decided I didn't agree with their religion and refused. So now when we don't get along I get to remind them that they better enjoy the time we have together cause their God will send me to hell when I die. Yeah, I'm twisted like that. Denouncing the religion won't make your weenie any better and grow back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCChrono Posted June 29, 2012 Share Posted June 29, 2012 Denouncing the religion won't make your weenie any better and grow back Well, I was refering to the baptism comment I quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death Posted July 1, 2012 Share Posted July 1, 2012 Denouncing the religion won't make your weenie any better and grow back It's not like you get inches cut off anyway, it's just nasty skin. Think of it as taking off a sweater 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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