DLC % logic?

[Shikotei-kun]

2 minutes ago, HusKy said:

 

> than should be

We don't decide what the rarities should be - players do. The whole notion of "this number looks good" and "that number feels right" is completely invalid.

 

> base game owners

There's no "base game owner". There's only "trophy list". Whether the user has access to trophy in base list or DLC list cannot be determined. And doesn't matter either.

 

> base game owners (by definition equal or larger than DLC owners)

Also wrong as showcased by countless number of games with free DLCs.

Hmm, how to put this unambiguously..

 

> base game owners

To keep it simple this group has the trophy list on their profile. They may or may not own the DLC and may or may not have a DLC trophy on their list. Base game owners can be seen as "profiles with this game, regardless of trophies earned".

 

> base game owners (by definition equal or larger than DLC owners)

As per above definition of base game owners, the group of DLC owners cannot exceed the number of total profiles-with-this-game.

Therefor the base game owners must be a larger group than those who also own the DLC.

Free DLC is owned by all who have the game on their profile, but paid DLC is not.

If a game has only free DLC, then the number of base game owners is equal to the number of DLC owners.

If a game has paid DLC (and we should assume that not everyone buys it) then the number of base game owners is larger than DLC owners.

 

> than should be

Based on PSNP's goal to accurately determine the number of DLC owners, the non-DLC owners shouldn't be taken into account to determine rarity of the DLC. If they are, then the resulting rarity isn't what PSNP is going for.

Setting nrOwnDLC to nrOwnBase would put that number too high for the purpose of PSNP's DLC rarity.

 

I do agree that rarity is objective and should be an accurate reflection of hard statistics and other measurable numbers. Not something based on a feeling of accomplishment, effort, time spent, or other personal difficulties.

 

Not trying to defend either method (PSN or PSNP), just trying to explain how PSNP is getting their values.

 

I understand that Platinums can be bought (EZPZ games), but somehow it seems that PSNP doesn't want Ultra Rare trophies to be purchasable by getting DLC (which has by far the largest amount of 'easy' UR trophies).

[DrBloodmoney]

3 minutes ago, scemopagliaccioh said:

Rarity equals effort, whether it’s because you got easily carried out by others more good than you online, whether because the game is dogshit  and nobody plays it, whether because the game is Grindy, or hard as hell, those are all things that require dedication to persevere, some like the online carry a little less, but you could argue that at some point people will get tired of you asking for help.

games like the Atellier thingy mentioned, no idea how they work but, the 20% sample of people is a LOT less than the 6%, so we’re talking about  a concentrated  lesser number of people who on average know more about the game.

 

Beyond: Two Souls

Basically a glorified Point and Click Narrative game.

Platinum - 7.19%

 

Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Famously punishing soul-like game.

Platinum - 27.16%

 

 

[madbuk]

6 minutes ago, Shikotei-kun said:

Hmm, how to put this unambiguously..

 

> base game owners

To keep it simple this group has the trophy list on their profile. They may or may not own the DLC and may or may not have a DLC trophy on their list. Base game owners can be seen as "profiles with this game, regardless of trophies earned".

 

> base game owners (by definition equal or larger than DLC owners)

As per above definition of base game owners, the group of DLC owners cannot exceed the number of total profiles-with-this-game.

Therefor the base game owners must be a larger group than those who also own the DLC.

Free DLC is owned by all who have the game on their profile, but paid DLC is not.

If a game has only free DLC, then the number of base game owners is equal to the number of DLC owners.

If a game has paid DLC (and we should assume that not everyone buys it) then the number of base game owners is larger than DLC owners.

 

> than should be

Based on PSNP's goal to accurately determine the number of DLC owners, the non-DLC owners shouldn't be taken into account to determine rarity of the DLC. If they are, then the resulting rarity isn't what PSNP is going for.

Setting nrOwnDLC to nrOwnBase would put that number too high for the purpose of PSNP's DLC rarity.

 

I do agree that rarity is objective and should be an accurate reflection of hard statistics and other measurable numbers. Not something based on a feeling of accomplishment, effort, time spent, or other personal difficulties.

 

Not trying to defend either method (PSN or PSNP), just trying to explain how PSNP is getting their values.

 

I understand that Platinums can be bought (EZPZ games), but somehow it seems that PSNP doesn't want Ultra Rare trophies to be purchasable by getting DLC (which has by far the largest amount of 'easy' UR trophies).

But the problem is, this goal PSNP is apparently going for is fundamentally incorrect. The only stat that would make any sense is base game owners.

[x7eight]

I don't get why there is an argument or discussion to be had ?  

 

Just leave things as they are, don't bring in politics and overcomplicate things. 

 

Yes it sucks when they add dlc trophies but why should we pretend they're not there or shouldn't count? 

[HusKy]

1 minute ago, Shikotei-kun said:

<snip>

 

No need to try to explain the numbers. We all know where the numbers come from.

 

While not super common, there are games that have standalone DLCs where you can own the DLC, but not the base game and in fact there are more DLC owners than the base game owners, e.g. TLoU Left Behind.

 

You keep reiterating the same over and over. But the suggestion is to drop "ownership" from the equation completely because it cannot be determined both for the base game or for the DLCs and it falls apart for hundreds of lists nowadays.

[djb5f]

13 minutes ago, madbuk said:

How is it not accurate? 100% of Borderlands 3 players also have the Borderlands DLCs on their trophy list, and should be factored into rarity as a result. The DLC is part of the game, whether you've paid to unlock it yet or not is irrelevant.

They don’t have the content to unlock it.  Sure, those who own the base game can purchase the DLC.  But so can so many others, including those who don’t own the base game.  It does not mean you should include them.
 

At this point, we might as well count all PlayStation owners in the denominator for every game then to calculate rarity.  Technically, they all have the ability to purchase it.   Why stop there?  Let’s use the world’s population!  As they have the same ability currently to unlock paid DLC trophies.

 

None of the methods work.  Because we don’t know the # of DLC owners and never will.  
 

I am fine with including all base game owners die DLC owners ONLY IF it is something you can toggle on/off and revert back to what we have (also not good, but at least it does not pollute my collection of legitimate Ultra Rares).  
 

Having every DLC trophy as Ultra Rare is nonsensical.  By that methodology, every single base game trophy should be Ultra Rare too if you expand the denominator to folks that don’t have that content.  Can’t have it both ways.
 

 

 

[scemopagliaccioh]

Just now, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Beyond: Two Souls

Basically a glorified Point and Click Narrative game.

Platinum - 7.19%

 

Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice

Famously punishing soul-like game.

Platinum - 27.16%

 

 

If Beyond is anything like Heavy Rain, I can see why people would just stop playing it altogether, Soulslike  game, it depends on what you mean by  “punish”, you may die, yes, but games like DS1 and Bloodborne, said punishment is inconsequential and you can retry pretty quick,  while Demon Souls (ps3, haven’t played ps5) had a very brutal one with half hp after dying and black worlds, and as a matter of fact, the rarity of Des remained lower than Das1 even after the discovery of the glitch.

[madbuk]

Just now, djb5f said:

They don’t have the content to unlock it.  Sure, those who own the base game can purchase the DLC.  But so can so many others, including those who don’t own the base game.  It does not mean you should include them.
 

At this point, we might as well count all PlayStation owners in the denominator for every game then to calculate rarity.  Technically, they all have the ability to purchase it.   Why stop there?  Let’s use the world’s population!  As they have the same ability currently to unlock paid DLC trophies.

 

None of the methods work.  Because we don’t know the # of DLC owners and never will.  
 

I am fine with including all base game owners die DLC owners ONLY IF it is something you can toggle on/off and revert back to what we have (also not good, but at least it does not pollute my collection of legitimate Ultra Rares).  
 

Having every DLC trophy as Ultra Rare is nonsensical.  By that methodology, every single base game trophy should be Ultra Rare too if you expand the denominator to folks that don’t have that content.  Can’t have it both ways.
 

 

 

You're missing the point. Left Behind is part of The Last of Us. Even if you haven't bought it, it is directly tethered with that specific game. DLC is not equivalent to a whole game, it's an add-on to an existing product, just like the trophies are an add-on to an existing list.

[HusKy]

1 minute ago, djb5f said:

Having every DLC trophy as Ultra Rare is nonsensical.

 

You are probably overestimating the impact of this change.

[djb5f]

8 minutes ago, madbuk said:

You're missing the point. Left Behind is part of The Last of Us. Even if you haven't bought it, it is directly tethered with that specific game. DLC is not equivalent to a whole game, it's an add-on to an existing product, just like the trophies are an add-on to an existing list.

You are using an arbitrary denominator of folks who can’t earn said trophies without purchasing it.  It skews the stats wildly.  Might as well use bigger denominators (all those with PSN access) for all games at that point.  They currently have the same chance to unlock trophies of content they don’t own.  0.0%.  It is similarly tethered to the PlayStation ecosystem.

 

7 minutes ago, HusKy said:

 

You are probably overestimating the impact of this change.

ok, not every.  But an overwhelming amount of them.  I don’t care about other people’s profiles but I do mine.  It would flood my Ultra Rares with DLC ones that are counting folks that have no ability to earn them.  Mixing apples and oranges to my own stats.

 

I wish there was a real solution.  My best suggestion is a toggle for current method and using all game owners.  

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by djb5f

[Shikotei-kun]

2 minutes ago, HusKy said:

While not super common, there are games that have standalone DLCs where you can own the DLC, but not the base game and in fact there are more DLC owners than the base game owners, e.g. TLoU Left Behind.

I had no idea this phenomenon as possible.

If I were to play Left Behind, wouldn't that also put The Last of Us on my profile?

 

5 minutes ago, madbuk said:

But the problem is, this goal PSNP is apparently going for is fundamentally incorrect. The only stat that would make any sense is base game owners.

In that sense the DLC list is simply part of the game. Just gated behind a paywall in case of paid DLC. In the same sense that the base trophy list is gated behind a paywall: buy the game itself.

I can definitely see the appeal in that, especially in cases where the new trophies add NG+ or other end-game content.

[DrBloodmoney]

 

12 minutes ago, djb5f said:

They don’t have the content to unlock it.  

 

It's on their profile anyway.

 

Quote

Sure, those who own the base game can purchase the DLC.  But so can so many others, including those who don’t own the base game.  It does not mean you should include them.

 

You can't attach DLC to a profile without the base game.

 

Quote

At this point, we might as well count all PlayStation owners in the denominator for every game then to calculate rarity.  Technically, they all have the ability to purchase it.  

 

But it's not attached to their profile

 

Quote

Why stop there?

 

Because that's where it stops with regards to their profile.

 

Quote

 Let’s use the world’s population!  

 

The world's population doesn't have the game attached to their profile

 

Quote

As they have the same ability currently to unlock paid DLC trophies.

 

...but it isn't attached to their profile.

 

Quote

None of the methods work.

 

Except of all of them. They just work to different levels of accuracy.

 

Quote

 Because we don’t know the # of DLC owners and never will.  

 

But we do know the exact number of people with the DLC trophy list attached to their profile.

 

Quote

I am fine with including all base game owners die DLC owners ONLY IF it is something you can toggle on/off and revert back to what we have

 

Sure, I guess - I have no issue with an Accurate/Inaccurate toggle.

 

Quote

(also not good, but at least it does not pollute my collection of legitimate Ultra Rares).  

 

A 'legit Ultra Rare' is any trophy where less than 5% of the people with the DLC attached to their profile have earned it.

 

 

Quote

Having every DLC trophy as Ultra Rare is nonsensical.  

 

Unless 5% of the people with the DLC attached to their profile have earned them all.

 

Quote

By that methodology, every single base game trophy should be Ultra Rare too if you expand the denominator to folks that don’t have that content.

 

They don't have the games attached to their profile.

 

Quote

 Can’t have it both ways.

 

You asked for a toggle - i.e. both ways. You're also the first person to ask for it in this thread, so you are the only person asking for it both ways.

Everyone else wants is one way.

This discussion is about what that one way is.

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[HusKy]

3 minutes ago, Shikotei-kun said:

I had no idea this phenomenon as possible.

If I were to play Left Behind, wouldn't that also put The Last of Us on my profile?

 

If you play LB standalone, it adds full TLoU list on your profile, yes.

[madbuk]

5 minutes ago, djb5f said:

You are using an arbitrary denominator of folks who can’t earn said trophies without purchasing it.  It skews the stats wildly.  Might as well use bigger denominators (all those with PSN access) for all games at that point.  They currently have the same chance to unlock trophies of content they don’t own.  0.0%.  It is similarly tethered to the PlayStation ecosystem.

 

ok, not every.  But an overwhelming amount of them.  I don’t care about other people’s profiles but I do mine.  It would flood my Ultra Rares with DLC ones that are counting folks that have no ability to earn them.  Mixing apples and oranges to my own stats.

 

I wish there was a real solution.  My best suggestion is a toggle for current method and using all game owners.  

 

 

When I bought a PS3, not every PS3 game was added to my trophy list.

When I bought The Last of Us, Left Behind got added to my trophy list.

 

2 minutes ago, Shikotei-kun said:

I had no idea this phenomenon as possible.

If I were to play Left Behind, wouldn't that also put The Last of Us on my profile?

 

In that sense the DLC list is simply part of the game. Just gated behind a paywall in case of paid DLC. In the same sense that the base trophy list is gated behind a paywall: buy the game itself.

I can definitely see the appeal in that, especially in cases where the new trophies add NG+ or other end-game content.

It would, which is honestly kinda shit. You play TLOU on PS3, decide to buy PS4 Left Behind standalone because you never got to on PS3, and then congrats you have TLOU Remastered on your trophy list and have to buy the whole game again - which includes Left Behind for free anyway - making your standalone purchase completely useless. Baffling decision - Uncharted: Lost Legacy works this way too, I think, by including Uncharted 4 co-op which then adds Uncharted 4 to your list.

[djb5f]

Attached to their profile is the deciding factor, eh?  Learn something every day lol.

 

They have no more ability to earn said DLC trophy than those without the game to earn a base game trophy.  The “solution” in both cases is to buy the content.

[Xylobe]

29 minutes ago, scemopagliaccioh said:

Rarity equals effort, whether it’s because you got easily carried out by others more good than you online, whether because the game is dogshit  and nobody plays it, whether because the game is Grindy, or hard as hell, those are all things that require dedication to persevere, some like the online carry a little less, but you could argue that at some point people will get tired of you asking for help.

games like the Atellier thingy mentioned, no idea how they work but, the 20% sample of people is a LOT less than the 6%, so we’re talking about  a concentrated  lesser number of people who on average know more about the game.

Personally, I’m okay with using  base game numbers value on free updates. Paid, though? You’re better off stop deluding yourself and go buy that church play thing.

 

In other words, we agree that there are other confounding variables that influence a trophy's rarity. Why, then, are you still saying that rarity equals effort?

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Xylobe

[DrBloodmoney]

21 minutes ago, scemopagliaccioh said:

If Beyond is anything like Heavy Rain, I can see why people would just stop playing it altogether, Soulslike  game, it depends on what you mean by  “punish”, you may die, yes, but games like DS1 and Bloodborne, said punishment is inconsequential and you can retry pretty quick,  while Demon Souls (ps3, haven’t played ps5) had a very brutal one with half hp after dying and black worlds, and as a matter of fact, the rarity of Des remained lower than Das1 even after the discovery of the glitch.

 

I'm not 100% sure what you are saying here...

 

If your point is that there are other factors than "effort" that affect rarity - I agree - that's exactly my point.

 

If you are arguing that Beyond: Two Souls takes 4x the "effort" to platinum than Sekiro, then this conversation has become detached from reality.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Shikotei-kun said:

I had no idea this phenomenon as possible.

If I were to play Left Behind, wouldn't that also put The Last of Us on my profile?

 

No - not the standalone version - but in that case, I would argue that it is it's own game, and therefore not relevant to this conversation.

 

I mean, technically, one could consider Superhot: Mind Control Delete a "DLC" of Superhot - given that it was given away for free to owners of the main game, but the fact that it has it's own separate list - fully detached from the list for Superhot, and can technically be purchased separately, and doing so will not add Superhot to the associated profile - means it is not really a factor in this particular argument. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[scemopagliaccioh]

9 minutes ago, Xylobe said:

 

In other words, we agree that there are other confounding variables that influence a trophy's rarity. Why, then, are you still saying that rarity equals effort?

 

In other words, we agree that there are other confounding variables that influence a trophy's rarity. Why, then, are you still saying that rarity equals effort?

? Because it does. It’s obvious that dedicated users would  know more than the casuals because they spent ahem time and EFFORT on mastering the mechanics. If that game had 1 users and 100% plat it would mean nothing, the sample with the casuals just gives you a more accurate idea on the efforts required.

8 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I'm not 100% sure what you are saying here...

 

If your point is that there are other factors than "effort" that affect rarity - I agree - that's exactly my point.

 

If you are arguing that Beyond: Two Souls takes 4x the "effort" to platinum than Sekiro, then this conversation has become detached from reality.

No, I’m exactly saying that effort equals rarity.

I’d need a titanic amount of effort to scroll through Heavy Rain’s clunky controls, I’d rather play a fluid souls game than it, so I can see why one is rarer than the other. Nothing surreal about it, you can check my profile, all soulsborne platted but HR at 60-ish because I dislike the game’s mechanics, like me, there are many others who think the same, culminating in that %.

Edited May 19, 2021 by scemopagliaccioh

[Beyondthegrave07]

I wonder how a change on this scale would affect a rarity leaderboard... Would completionists dominate the boards or would it even itself out over time? Would people start buying DLC to try and compete? 

 

Guess it'd be interesting to see at least.

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, scemopagliaccioh said:

No, I’m exactly saying that effort equals rarity.

I’d need a titanic amount of effort to scroll through Heavy Rain’s clunky controls, I’d rather play a fluid souls game than it, so I can see why one is rarer than the other.

 

Okay mate - so tell me something - when a game you have already platinumed get's added to PS+, and the rarity suddenly skyrockets as a result, is that evidence that it suddenly became more of an effort to complete retroactively? ?

 

 

 

 

[Shikotei-kun]

6 minutes ago, madbuk said:

It would, which is honestly kinda shit. You play TLOU on PS3, decide to buy PS4 Left Behind standalone because you never got to on PS3, and then congrats you have TLOU Remastered on your trophy list and have to buy the whole game again - which includes Left Behind for free anyway - making your standalone purchase completely useless. Baffling decision - Uncharted: Lost Legacy works this way too, I think, by including Uncharted 4 co-op which then adds Uncharted 4 to your list.

 

So even PSNP's representation of "game owners" (profiles with this game) is inaccurate when it comes to this kind of DLC.

 

But wouldn't that also be the case for PSN?

 

The "true" rarity would be off on both calculations.

[scemopagliaccioh]

Just now, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Okay mate - so tell me something - when a game you have already platinumed get's added to PS+, and the rarity suddenly skyrockets as a result, is that evidence that it suddenly became more of an effort to complete retroactively? ?

 

 

 

 

What makes you think the rarity will skyrocket? Star Wars BF2 ever since it came to plus has become more common as a plat, and from the 3.80 it had when I platted it, now it has 4.64. Not all games follow a pattern you decide.

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, scemopagliaccioh said:

What makes you think the rarity will skyrocket? Star Wars BF2 ever since it came to plus has become more common as a plat, and from the 3.80 it had when I platted it, now it has 4.64. Not all games follow a pattern you decide.

 

Oh, I see - so in that specific case, the "effort" you put in became less of a strain retroactively - got it ?

[Shikotei-kun]

3 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Okay mate - so tell me something - when a game you have already platinumed get's added to PS+, and the rarity suddenly skyrockets as a result, is that evidence that it suddenly became more of an effort to complete retroactively? 

 

One example is the Fall Guys trophy Infallible.

With the recent update it's become a 10 minute effortless trophy, rather than an almost godlike luck/skill.

It's gone from 1-2% to almost 3.7% in a week!

 

Effort =/= rarity.

[djb5f]

11 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

I wonder how a change on this scale would affect a rarity leaderboard... Would completionists dominate the boards or would it even itself out over time? Would people start buying DLC to try and compete? 

 

Guess it'd be interesting to see at least.

Just look at psntrophyleaders rarity leaderboard to get an idea.  Yes, heavily dominated by DLC owners.  I was top 50 forever lol but have recently dropped to the second page.

https://(URL not allowed)/leaderboard/rare_trophy

 

So while inaccurately counting all base game owners for DLC rarity percentages would help me A LOT, it still is not a good solution.

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by djb5f