Speed Run Question

[FeelTheCosmos]

The current fastest time in the 100% club for this list is 68 hours.  Let's say, hypothetically, that someone wanted to cut that time as low as possible:

 

Long Service Medal would be the, well, longest, since you'd have to play all 3 games from start to finish.  I think I did this once in about 16 hours.  Paramour/Insanity can be cheesed, so then you'd just have to go back and get that real quick, and the kills trophies would happen naturally.  So, best case is about 17-18 hours, right?

 

But what if you could suppress the kills trophies while you were working your way through the trilogy?  Theoretically, Long Service Medal could be your first trophy, then you go back to your Paramour/Insanity cheese, then find a good kill grind spot and knock those out last.  Maybe 4 hours or so from first to last trophy, right?  Well, it turns out you CAN suppress the kills trophies, by deleting your profile save periodically as you play.  My question for the community (and ultimately the CRT) is this:  would that count as save file manipulation?  You're not actually earning trophies and deleting them, the method is within the confines of the game(s), and it's available to everyone, so it should be legit, right?

 

Just curious what everyone thinks about this.  I know 100% speed running is not super popular, but I know I'll be tackling this list at some point and I'm really not sure if deleting kill counts is fair play or not.  I don't want to use it then get flagged, but I also don't want to put a run together without it and then get beat by someone who DID use it.  Thoughts?

[damcrac5]

I don't see this as save manipulation.  It is often referred to as save scumming, but people do that all the time to gain trophies(save your game on a thumb drive to use to get an alternate ending without another full playthrough) .  I would see save manipulation as going into the save file and modifying information in them to gain you an advantage or a short cut.  Just my 2 cents.

[FeelTheCosmos]

1 hour ago, damcrac5 said:

I don't see this as save manipulation.  It is often referred to as save scumming, but people do that all the time to gain trophies(save your game on a thumb drive to use to get an alternate ending without another full playthrough) .  I would see save manipulation as going into the save file and modifying information in them to gain you an advantage or a short cut.  Just my 2 cents.

 

Thanks for the input, that's definitely one way to look at it.  I kind of agree but it just doesn't feel quite right. In save scumming you're just reverting to a place you already were.  In this case, you'd finish the game with the actions required for the trophy but you'd be deliberately tricking the game into thinking you hadn't.  Seems cheap, but then again there's lots of cheap tricks in speed running anyway...

 

I guess I could do it dramatically - just do it on a burner account and flag myself and see if the flag sticks   Of course CRT's super smart and would probably see this post, then hold off on approving the flag for like a year until I did the real speed run, just to get them both at the same time.  Shoot, foiled again!

[BlueDragonRR]

On 8/3/2021 at 9:55 AM, FeelTheCosmos said:

Well, it turns out you CAN suppress the kills trophies, by deleting your profile save periodically as you play.  My question for the community (and ultimately the CRT) is this:  would that count as save file manipulation?  You're not actually earning trophies and deleting them, the method is within the confines of the game(s), and it's available to everyone, so it should be legit, right?

Deleting save data is not a flaggable offensive. It would look strange in regards to timestamps but it is doable to attempt a speedrun for. It would be a series of saves at certain points in all 3 games to then pop them off one by one. The hardest would probably be continually having to clear the save data to prevent the kill trophies from popping. Not even sure if this specific list is worth doing a speedrun for but to each their own.

[DaivRules]

4 minutes ago, BlueDragonRR said:

Deleting save data is not a flaggable offensive. It would look strange in regards to timestamps but it is doable to attempt a speedrun for. It would be a series of saves at certain points in all 3 games to then pop them off one by one. The hardest would probably be continually having to clear the save data to prevent the kill trophies from popping. Not even sure if this specific list is worth doing a speedrun for but to each their own.

Deleting save data to delete unsynced trophies is definitely flaggable, especially to undo trophies that would have popped under normal play in an attempt to obtain a faster speedrun time. 
 

[ThatMuttGuy]

1 hour ago, DaivRules said:

Deleting save data to delete unsynced trophies is definitely flaggable, especially to undo trophies that would have popped under normal play in an attempt to obtain a faster speedrun time. 
 

 

It's not deleting unsynched trophies, it's deleting save data while playing so you don't pop any of the kills trophies until you're ready. 

 

Tbh, I don't see a problem with using this method to secure a fast time, but you may want to run it by the CRT first and see. 

[DaivRules]

32 minutes ago, ThatMuttGuy said:

 

It's not deleting unsynched trophies, it's deleting save data while playing so you don't pop any of the kills trophies until you're ready. 

 

Tbh, I don't see a problem with using this method to secure a fast time, but you may want to run it by the CRT first and see. 

Even this part?

 

Quote

The hardest would probably be continually having to clear the save data to prevent the kill trophies from popping.

 

That seems like exactly the save manipulation that’s against the rules. 

[NamoPh]

12 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

Even this part?

 

That seems like exactly the save manipulation that’s against the rules. 

 

I've questioned MMDE about using this exact tactic in another game and he confirmed it isn't flaggable.

[ThatMuttGuy]

Then are you going to flag all the people that have Mass Effect trilogy all done, but don't have Legendary Edition on their profile? 

 

1) You're only using your own save. You're not loading up an older save from another system at any point. 

 

2) If this is considered save manipulation, then you'd have to consider the use of saves in any Visual Novel or games with choices presented as save manipulation as well. 

 

The fact is, I doubt anyone would do this. But if they did, it should be considered fair game because all you're doing here is wiping your own progress towards a trophy. 

[FeelTheCosmos]

On 8/14/2021 at 7:11 PM, ThatMuttGuy said:

The fact is, I doubt anyone would do this. 

Haha, I posted this topic because I'm literally going to do this.  What's there to doubt?   I promise, if you put a leaderboard on the internet, at least one person will take an interest in being at the top of it.  In this case, that somebody is me.

 

For what it's worth, I'm rooting for this to be considered flaggable myself.  There used to be a statement in the "what constitutes a flag" thread that said certain save file uses were "indistinguishable from cheating," and that's exactly what this is.  Rather than trouble myself with constantly deleting the profile save, It would be far easier to just stay offline while I played all 3 games, USB my game saves, delete my whole profile off the PS4 (and the trophies I earned with it), then load back in and start the speed run.  I'm not going to do that, of course, but If the top times start getting into the 2-3 hour range I'd bet my hat that someone else would.

 

The fact is, I don't think there's any way to complete all 3 games in this trilogy without getting 250 kills.  I will test this eventually, but I think ME2 alone has enough forced battles (have to kill everyone before the gate opens kind of thing) to make this statement true.  Now that both points have been made, I'd love to see one of the CRT come in here and just say "Yeah, try that and you'll get flagged."  Let me see if I can figure out how to tag them.  Edit coming soon: @B1rvine @grimydawg___ @MMDE @Squirlruler  Woohoo, got it!

 

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this so far, there have been good points made on both sides which is why I thought it best to pose the question.   And, you'll be proud of me DaivRules, I didn't hijack someone else's dispute to do it! ?

Edited August 17, 2021 by FeelTheCosmos
Learned how to @ someone

[B1rvine]

30 minutes ago, FeelTheCosmos said:

I don't think there's any way to complete all 3 games in this trilogy without getting 250 kills.

 

This. Manipulation and deletion of save files / system is flaggable.

 

Semi-off topic but relatable: There was a similar question DM'd to us not too long ago, about these "multi-list" games. The person in question only wanted to have games with platinum trophies on his account, and basically try to delete a secondary list after platting the primary. The problem was, those trophies were required for the platinum.

 

The trend seems to be going to towards multi-lists. They need to be treated as a multiple parts to a whole, where one list's requirements must be considered for the other.  A prime example of this would be Monster Hunter World Iceborne. You must finish a good portion of original MHW game before advancing to Iceborne. So if someone had an Iceborne list, without the respective original MHW requirements etc, both lists are flagged.

 

In short, don't manipulate files etc that can affect multi-list trophy games.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by B1rvine

[FeelTheCosmos]

8 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

This. Manipulation and deletion of save files / system is flaggable.

 

Semi-off topic but relatable: There was a similar question DM'd to us not too long ago, about these "multi-list" games. The person in question only wanted to have games with platinum trophies on his account, and basically try to delete a secondary list after platting the primary. The problem was, those trophies were required for the platinum.

 

The trend seems to be going to towards multi-lists. They need to be treated as a multiple parts to a whole, where one list's requirements must be considered for the other.  A prime example of this would be Monster Hunter World Iceborne. You must finish a good portion of original MHW game before advancing to Iceborne. So if someone had an Iceborne list, without the respective original MHW requirements etc, both lists are flagged.

 

In short, don't manipulate files etc that can affect multi-list trophy games.

 

 

 

Excellent, thanks for the clarification.  I was really hoping to have this discussion be public, and it's exactly because of what you pointed out:  these lists are becoming more common and I worry that someone might accidentally nuke their account for some dumb reason like mine or the person you mentioned.

 

I'll just shoot for the 17 hour time and hope it sticks

 

[MMDE]

You can prepare saves, but don't use any saves you've created where you delete the trophies you gained on the saves.

 

 

Let's say the game has 3 choices at the start of the game, and there's a trophy for beating chapter 1, and 3 trophies for beating last chapter depending on whichever choice you made at the start of the game.

 

You can make as much progress as you want until you beat chapter 1 (unlocking the first trophy) after making the choice, preparing 3 saves at the end of chapter 1.

 

You can't prepare saves for each choice at the end of the last chapter and use those to pop 'em fast, as then you'd already popped beating chapter 1 trophy, where you afterwards deleted the trophy you earned during the creation of the saves.

Edited August 18, 2021 by MMDE

[proud2bNs]

21 hours ago, B1rvine said:

In short, don't manipulate files etc that can affect multi-list trophy games.

 

 

Does this also include the save manipulation mentioned here? If not, what's the difference? 

I'm really trying to understand why one manipulation method is allowed and the other one isn't. It's confusing.

[NamoPh]

4 hours ago, MMDE said:

You can prepare saves, but don't use any saves you've created where you delete the trophies you gained on the saves.

 

Let's say the game has 3 choices at the start of the game, and there's a trophy for beating chapter 1, and 3 trophies for beating last chapter depending on whichever choice you made at the start of the game.

 

You can make as much progress as you want until you beat chapter 1 (unlocking the first trophy) after making the choice, preparing 3 saves at the end of chapter 1.

 

You can't prepare saves for each choice at the end of the last chapter and use those to pop 'em fast, as then you'd already popped beating chapter 1 trophy, where you afterwards deleted the trophy you earned during the creation of the saves.

 

It sounds like there might be a miscommunication with regards to what is being suggested here. To clarify, there is absolutely no trophy deletion on the table. OP is suggesting speedrunning the "extra" trophy list, because the mechanics of the games' saves allow you to reset the trophy counter without losing your progress in each individual game, and without any trophy ever popping (again, only for the extra list, not for any of the individual games).

 

To my knowledge, this kind of save state abuse that is facilitated by the mechanics of the game has been considered an acceptable cheese in every other scenario where it came up. The user above me already pointed out a scenario where this exact method is being used, only to pop a trophy before it normally would, rather than preventing one from popping at all.

[MMDE]

40 minutes ago, NamoPh said:

 

It sounds like there might be a miscommunication with regards to what is being suggested here. To clarify, there is absolutely no trophy deletion on the table. OP is suggesting speedrunning the "extra" trophy list, because the mechanics of the games' saves allow you to reset the trophy counter without losing your progress in each individual game, and without any trophy ever popping (again, only for the extra list, not for any of the individual games).

 

To my knowledge, this kind of save state abuse that is facilitated by the mechanics of the game has been considered an acceptable cheese in every other scenario where it came up. The user above me already pointed out a scenario where this exact method is being used, only to pop a trophy before it normally would, rather than preventing one from popping at all.

 

If we're talking about completing the game on VITA and then transferring save using cloud to PS4, pop the trophies fast there and never sync the original earning time on the vita, then that is pretty much the exact same thing.

[ThatMuttGuy]

17 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

If we're talking about completing the game on VITA and then transferring save using cloud to PS4, pop the trophies fast there and never sync the original earning time on the vita, then that is pretty much the exact same thing.

 

No, that's not what anyone is talking about. 

 

I feel like no one on either the CRT or mod team is understanding what OP is asking. 

 

In Mass Effect, there's a separate save data for stuff that tracks in the Legendary Edition stack (ie the list that doesn't have a plat). It encompasses the entire trilogy. However, it has a trophy for getting a certain amount of kills (I think like 250, 500, and then 1000?). Anyway, you can periodically delete the save data for that so you can beat all three games without popping that trophy. It would be no different than wiping out world data in some games and reloading in with the character data changing every time. 

[MMDE]

Just now, ThatMuttGuy said:

 

No, that's not what anyone is talking about. 

 

I feel like no one on either the CRT or mod team is understanding what OP is asking. 

 

In Mass Effect, there's a separate save data for stuff that tracks in the Legendary Edition stack (ie the list that doesn't have a plat). It encompasses the entire trilogy. However, it has a trophy for getting a certain amount of kills (I think like 250, 500, and then 1000?). Anyway, you can periodically delete the save data for that so you can beat all three games without popping that trophy. It would be no different than wiping out world data in some games and reloading in with the character data changing every time. 

 

Yeah, as long as you sync the first earning of each trophy, I don't see any issue.

[B1rvine]

42 minutes ago, ThatMuttGuy said:

No, that's not what anyone is talking about. 

 

May as well use a hex editor and just reset things to zero. I do not condone what's being done in that thread. It's manipulation of the save files, even if its done by the system. I didn't realize people were doing stuff like this. 

 

Selectively deleting portions of save files to prevent trophies from popping is like "Reverse trophy deletion" (Yeah, i made that term up just now) which is different than preparation. There's even a section in the flag rules that covers this. Glitches need to be in-game. Keyword : IN. There's even a blurb : "In-Game Glitches/Exploits - [Note: Do not confuse this with external system exploits.]"

 

I personally don't see why speedruns should be about files being erased, replaced, updated....... I see a future with a large majority of one minute trophy times...

 

What I said before still stands : Intentional design / technical limitations of trophy lists for multi-lists shouldn't be a reason to get things too fast / out of order. Pretend these lists aren't broken up into multiple parts, and are actually one big list when it comes to ordering / speed.

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by B1rvine

[ThatMuttGuy]

7 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

May as well use a hex editor and just reset things to zero. I do not condone what's being done in that thread. It's manipulation of the save files, even if its done by the system. I didn't realize people were doing stuff like this. 

 

Selectively deleting portions of save files to prevent trophies from popping is like "Reverse trophy deletion" (Yeah, i made that term up just now) which is different than preparation. There's even a section in the flag rules that covers this. Glitches need to be in-game. Keyword : IN. There's even a blurb : "In-Game Glitches/Exploits - [Note: Do not confuse this with external system exploits.]"

 

I personally don't see why speedruns should be about files being erased, replaced, updated....... I see a future with a large majority of one minute trophy times...

 

What I said before still stands : Intentional design / technical limitations of trophy lists for multi-lists shouldn't be a reason to get things too fast / out of order. Pretend these lists aren't broken up into multiple parts, and are actually one big list when it comes to ordering / speed.

 

 

Then backing up your save to the cloud and reloading it would fall under this as well, and yet it is a valid tactic in trophy guides across the site. 

 

This is literally cherry picking if you say one is ok and one isn't. I myself would never do this method, but I don't think it should constitute a flag either, based on the rules of the site. 

[B1rvine]

10 minutes ago, ThatMuttGuy said:

This is literally cherry picking if you say one is ok and one isn't.

 

I understand your logic, but "artificial save slots" are also specifically mentioned as okay, so it's a non factor.

 

Backing save files up is one thing, but this is more akin to using a file editor on a PC "with the limitations of a PS4." Hmmm, lets remove this file out of this this directory, change the value on one line in this other one, add all these other files, replace this one with an old file. Custom set of files loaded... Viola! God mode on!

[Alayaes]

When you allow boosting, taxi services, save file uploads, and other exploits you eventually reach a moment of inconsistency or accidental rule breaking. The water is too muddy. Speedruns kind of become a herpaderp when they’re not officially witnessed because you can never fully establish the boundaries.

[FeelTheCosmos]

This is definitely a weird situation, I'm really glad the discussion is continuing.  Thanks everyone for making good points!

 

The most important thing here, for me anyway, is coming to a consensus no matter what it is.  The leaderboard rules are determined in large part by some of the people in this thread, and I'm totally fine abiding by whatever the decision is.  I personally side with B1rvine thinking it's cheap, but there's quite a few reasons to go with MMDE's point that it might be ok anyway.

 

In fact, the original "delete your profile save but keep your game saves" was used to AVOID playing a large part of this game, namely Insanity difficulty.  So you have people popping trophies for completing the game on the hardest difficulty who have only basically defeated one enemy on that difficulty (the last boss of ME1).  If this is not flaggable, then I don't see why deleting the same file to avoid popping the kill trophies would be either.  In fact, I fully planned on doing it for Paramour/Insanity II/III, just like the thread referenced above, so if that's not legit then I guess it's better to find out now.

 

And yes, speed runners are a rare breed, most will do whatever is allowable within the rules to bring their time as close to the theoretical minimum as possible.  If I remember correctly, the top 10 Super Mario runs are within about 50 frames (<2 seconds) of each other.  One minute times could become a thing for certain games, and there would be folks finding ways to get that to 59 seconds.  Personally I'm not that obsessed, I just want to put my own best time up there and move on.  But I do want to make sure that my best time is within the rules, of course.

 

To clarify, the profile save/game save looks more like the old game data/save data on a PS3, if anyone remembers those.  I remember deleting the game data quite a few times to restore functionality (with some loss to profile information), and I think I had to manipulate it a few times in GT5 to get the helmet trophies or something, so it's not completely unprecedented.  At no point would I be deleting a trophy that was earned but unsynched, and at no point would I be restoring any of the data that was deleted.  I'd prefer not to mess with it, but if it's theoretically possible then that's exactly what I'll do

 

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for your input and I'll keep an eye on this thread to see what other insights appear.

 

 

[PMD_E1337Pete]

16 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

I understand your logic, but "artificial save slots" are also specifically mentioned as okay, so it's a non factor.

 

Backing save files up is one thing, but this is more akin to using a file editor on a PC "with the limitations of a PS4." Hmmm, lets remove this file out of this this directory, change the value on one line in this other one, add all these other files, replace this one with an old file. Custom set of files loaded... Viola! God mode on!

 

I don't care about the fastest leaderboards at all but this is baffling to me. I don't think any reasonable person would say that "deleting a save on my playstation" is the same as "downloading third party software to unpack the save, using a file editor, manipulating the save, repacking the save, the going back into the game" or what you're describing here.

 

42 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Selectively deleting portions of save files to prevent trophies from popping is like "Reverse trophy deletion" (Yeah, i made that term up just now) which is different than preparation. There's even a section in the flag rules that covers this. Glitches need to be in-game. Keyword : IN. There's even a blurb : "In-Game Glitches/Exploits - [Note: Do not confuse this with external system exploits.]"

 

You're using one of the "Not flaggable" bullets to justify this position. But none of the "Flaggable Offenses" seem to apply here.

• Using CFW (Custom Firmware) - no
• Using external software to alter PlayStation system or save data - no
• Using any “external save file” other than your own - no
• Using multiple PlayStations to simultaneously play a single [one] game title, at the same time, on the same PSN account - no
• Timestamp Synchronization Manipulation - I think this is the only rule we can even disagree about as applying. And none of the three examples seem to apply either. They all relate to syncing earned trophies and the trophies aren't earned yet.

The line should be "did this person earn these trophies without external manipulation", and the answer here is "yes".

 

I feel like this argument is insanely slippery, muddy, and confusing. And I have no idea where the line ends anymore if this is the case. But if this is the way it's being ruled, can we expect the rules to be updated for clarification and a flag for everyone who has one of the three platinums without this list on their profile?

[B1rvine]

1 hour ago, PMD_E1337Pete said:

 

I don't care about the fastest leaderboards at all but this is baffling to me. I don't think any reasonable person would say that "deleting a save on my playstation" is the same as "downloading third party software to unpack the save, using a file editor, manipulating the save, repacking the save, the going back into the game" or what you're describing here.

 

 

You're using one of the "Not flaggable" bullets to justify this position. But none of the "Flaggable Offenses" seem to apply here.

• Using CFW (Custom Firmware) - no
• Using external software to alter PlayStation system or save data - no
• Using any “external save file” other than your own - no
• Using multiple PlayStations to simultaneously play a single [one] game title, at the same time, on the same PSN account - no
• Timestamp Synchronization Manipulation - I think this is the only rule we can even disagree about as applying. And none of the three examples seem to apply either. They all relate to syncing earned trophies and the trophies aren't earned yet.

The line should be "did this person earn these trophies without external manipulation", and the answer here is "yes".

 

I feel like this argument is insanely slippery, muddy, and confusing. And I have no idea where the line ends anymore if this is the case. But if this is the way it's being ruled, can we expect the rules to be updated for clarification and a flag for everyone who has one of the three platinums without this list on their profile?

 

I agree with your thought process here, but again, it boils down to the intentions of the rules, compounded with the lack of updates/clarifications as Playstation hardware advancements and discoveries have occurred. The rules were recently re-worded to prevent "sneaky lawyers" in disputes from trying to discredit the validity by the wording of the rules and how it was specifically written. Eg., the rules say you need 3 trophies shown be cheated, so if someone CFW'd a single impossible trophy in, they'd argue it's *one* trophy and therefor not against the rules etc. I still think the wording is a problem, even if it's better. I'm also looking to the future and the health of the leaderboards.

 

Quote

Using any “external save file” other than your own - no

 

Not using an "External Save File" originally meant "don't backup and re-download your save files from "anywhere" to manipulate trophies after a profile wipe or system format." So its actually semi-synonymous with don't " 'partially' delete some of your system/save files and/or re-download them to manipulate trophies." When the rules were re-clarified, other sections were added in to cement trophy syncing manipulation, but of course now we have this situation. Obviously, there's differences, but I see the current course eventually imploding because there's going to be so many exceptions / grey areas / similarities between cheating and not as possibilities due to hardware occur.

 

The method being used here to "speedrun" is very similar to resuming play after deleting your profile, except due to system architecture changes from the 2006 era to the 2021 era makes it possible to not have to delete the entire profile to do so.

 

Having a multi-list only makes this more complicated than it has to be. In the end, I think its easier to just say, don't manipulate files in the XMB at all.

 

Not really related, but I was recently contacted by an Xbox "CRT" member on TA, and they're having to update the rules, since Xbox apparently encourages "game mods" with no restrictions, to where everything can be autopopped. So, similar to that, I see disallowing this as absolutely necessary. Don't have the exact specifics here, so I can't answer specific questions about it.

 

My two cents.

 

Edit : I forgot who said this, but awhile ago someone on the forums said "Back in my day, speedrunning was about completing a game fast, not updating a bunch of files on the system."

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by B1rvine