Why are they doing this? Platinum rant.

[Sicho]

2 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

Well its more like someone starts a thread by saying that pineapples are dumb on pizzas. Which is fine, their opinion. But then you butt in and start saying how pizzas can have only one slice of pineapple, at a specific 34 degree angle and not see how peculiar or personal your demands are, and by no means could you expect devs to cater to that, especially because most people would be against it.

If you like to talk in analogies, that was one.

 

I don't agree. It's more of "if I could design and sell a pizza, it would not have pineapple". and then I go on about why I personally would not want it to have pineapple.

 

If I were to design a Playstation game, it would not have missable trophies or require multiple playthroughs. And I will celebrate every dev who does that because I think it's a better way to design trophy lists than including missables (or online trophies). You might think it's not and that's OK. We have to agree to disagree

[Timo425]

3 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

I don't agree. It's more of "if I could design and sell a pizza, it would not have pineapple". and then I go on about why I personally would not want it to have pineapple.

 

and then you would want everyone in the world to eat that pineapple.

 

Its okay to have very specific demands, but if you insist on them as much as you do, it just shows that you are unaware of how others like it.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Timo425

[AJ_Radio]

2 hours ago, Sicho said:

 

I'm not saying that.

What I'm saying is that playing the same game twice is not worth it. It's as simple as that.

Resident Evil 8 can be platted with several playthroughs in fewer hours than the hours I put in Elden Ring on the first day I started playing ER. Still, I don't have done the plat in Resi8 because why the fuck would I replay the game? I already experienced it, it's done and ticked off. time for the next new shit

 

It doesn't matter if it's a 200h game or a 1h game - once I played through it, my interest is practically gone immediately.

However, in the rare case that I feel compelled to replay a game for a trophy, it is of course much more pleasant to replay a short game than a huge epic. Has nothing to do with it being "easier" ("You just want easy shit") but it's simply less frustrating. (because for me, replaying causes frustration because I always have the feeling I could do something "better" with my time)

 

As I said before, I don't watch Jurassic Park twice in a row*, even though I love the movie. And yes, when I would watch it a second time I might spot a detail or two I missed before. But the bulk of my time would not be spent with that "new detail" but with stuff I already experienced. My time is too valuable for that, there's a huge amount of movies I have not seen yet, better spent my time with those. Replaying a whole bunch of a game just for a sword or something - Nah, not for me. I prefer to invest the said amount of my limited time on this planet into new experiences instead of doing the same shit over and over again for bragging rights.

 

Again, my goal is to go through as many games as possible in my life. And while doing that, I want to accumulate platinum trophies. If games have ridiculous trophy requirements like 700 playthroughs or missable shit, fuck the trophies. I move on and do something else. However, no one can forbid me to rant about that and say that it's annoying and frustrating that some devs include stuff like that. Because it's a shame that a fan of a game, who loves it dearly, maybe even bought a super expensive collector edition to support the devs, will buy the DLC, recommends it to everybody and fucking enjoys the game is then locked out of a platinum trophy because basically, they decided that his playstyle is "not worthy" and that you need to play through it multiple times or that you have to play a certain way to not miss something. It sucks.

 

Someone brought Skyrim up at one point in this thread. Skyrim also has missables unfortunately, but they did one thing right: you can get the Civil War trophies, no matter which side you choose to be on! Would this be a FromSoftware game, they would basically ask you to play through it twice, once on each side of the war. This would be super unnecessary and a "cheap" way to artificially push people to replay the game more times than - again, my personal opinion - it is worth doing.

 

*of course there are movies that I've seen multiple times. But never "in a row", often there were years between the first time and the second time I watched it. Also, movies are a "snack" compared to the time investment huge video games ask for, so it's not even remotely comparable.

 

You're talking smack here dude.

 

You feel this need that your views and opinions should apply to every game here and now, as well as games that come out. That's not how the world works.

 

I replayed Max Payne 3 over a dozen times for that platinum. If I absolutely hated the game, I probably wouldn't of bothered past the first area. If I didn't like it that much, I would of just be done after the first playthrough.

 

Basically you are a casual. I know some people throw the term casual around as derogatory like it's some bad thing here where we discuss trophies.

 

I've always been the minority. I was always in a sense a completionist, even before achievements and trophies existed. I've also always been interested in statistics, which is part of the reason why I trophy hunt. I couldn't care less how niche my standards are in contrast to others. I was never somebody to jump on the mainstream narrative. Trophy hunting was and will always be niche.

 

You are the other hand aren't any of these, and that's fine. But you're practically shoving your viewpoint down others throats, and this is where I have a problem with you.

[Sicho]

33 minutes ago, DeathlessVoid said:

 

Honestly the vibe you're giving off is this:

You want everything to be 'on rails' for YOU. And you specifically. You treat this as a rollercoaster experience. You're strapped into your seat and let everything be fed to you, brain off, enjoying "your free time" this way. Essentially a living zombie on a couch.

You want to be spoonfed everything so that it's entirely a breeze and you can just skip merrily through everything and gather up a ton of platinums to show your friend how many games you've completed more than them.

 

I don't want anything on rails but yes, I want stuff that it for me - because I am the fucking customer here.

But that's not really it even. Elden Ring is for me, I love that shit. The trophy list however might not be. And that's worse than simply saying "ah this game is not really for me" - I'm fine with that, not everything can be for my tastes. What hurts, however, is when a lot of a game is for me and I dig it but then there are certain elements that spoil the experience - like missable trophies for example.

And of course, I want it to be perfect "for me" because I'm passionate about it. It would be worse if I simply didn't care

 

Believe me, you haven't gotten me figured out, you got me all wrong. I legitimately did the Ranked Online trophy in Mortal Kombat X, I platinumed THPS5 even though it was a slog and super annoying, I played Monster Hunter World for over 370h and am still working on the Plat, I played over 1600 hours of Guild Wars 1 and 2, I'm already at almost 500h in Elder Scrolls Online, I play dozens of Magic The Gathering Arena competitively every week, I spent thousands of hours on other games and I even played through Westwoods Balde Runner game twelve times! I'm a lot of things but I'm not one expecting content to be fed to me on rails or not willing to put in effort in games. However, I want the effort I put in to be exciting and challenging and not simply be redoing stuff just because the devs thought that might be "fun"! Missables are not fun for me. Multiple playthroughs are mostly not fun for me. There's nothing else to it.

8 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

But you're practically shoving your viewpoint down others throats, and this is where I have a problem with you.

 

learn to read then. Explaining why I think something is not great or why I don't like something or why I think another way of doing things would be better is not the same as shoving my viewpoint down anyone's throat. I'm not forcing anyone to agree with me nor am I claiming to be all-knowing and the messenger of truth! I'm just saying what I think.

 

The basic things I'm saying is:

- I don't like missable trophies

- I don't like online trophies

- I don't like multiple playthroughs, especially if they are mandatory for trophies

- I don't think missables are a challenge, they are just a source of frustration but not tied to skill (exceptio probat regulam)

- I think there is a way do design more fun, challenging, and hard trophies than leaning on multiple endings, playthroughs, missable collectables etc.

... and then a whole essay about WHY I think that is

 

But nowhere am I saying "you better adapt the same way of thinking or I will kill you in your sleep" or something similar.

 

And if there is a paragraph somewhere that gives you that expression, blame the language barrier. I'm not a native English speaker.

[DeepEyes7]

22 minutes ago, Lowlliet said:

Aaaaaand of course, he completely ignored the post that provided valid arguments from @DeathlessVoid.

 

He must be trolling at this point. 

 

He is just watching how much this stupid thread can go on babbling about the same thing over and over...

 

Lets talk about how ezpz trophies are dumb and destroyed the trophy hunting community, that theme usually get threads closed in minutes...

[Timo425]

12 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

The basic things I'm saying is:

- I don't like missable trophies

- I don't like online trophies

- I don't like multiple playthroughs, especially if they are mandatory for trophies

- I don't think missables are a challenge, they are just a source of frustration but not tied to skill (exceptio probat regulam)

- I think there is a way do design more fun, challenging, and hard trophies than leaning on multiple endings, playthroughs, missable collectables etc.

... and then a whole essay about WHY I think that is

 

But nowhere am I saying "you better adapt the same way of thinking or I will kill you in your sleep" or something similar.

You are not saying that, but you are also failing to see how peculiar your tastes are compared to an average trophy hunter.

[Sicho]

14 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

You feel this need that your views and opinions should apply to every game here and now, as well as games that come out. That's not how the world works.

 

just to point it out again: I WOULD LIKE it to be that way, yes. But I'm never saying that it must be applied this way now and that devs should bow to my whims! It's just wishful thinking on my part.

 

And truth be told, it's happening in many games already but not because of me  

 

And sorry, being a casual or not, no one can tell me that they think it is good game design that in Horizon 2, if you forget to scan the boss and don't have a save you have to replay the whole fucking game just to get that one trophy ... missables are stupid and I will die on that hill  No one can convince me that they enjoy missing that scan and starting over.

[Timo425]

Just now, DeepEyes7 said:

 

He is just watching how much this stupid thread can go on babbling about the same thing over and over...

 

Lets talk about how ezpz trophies are dumb and destroyed the trophy hunting community, that theme usually get threads closed in minutes...

Good point, I will ignore him now.

[Copanele]

Not sure if this was mentioned before but, sneaking in with some piece of info among you Tarnished warriors.

For the Age of the Stars ending or whatever requirements, you have multiple failsafe options so you can't really butcher that ending unless you specifically aim to kill every single NPC in the world. I did 3/4 of the quest by sheer mistake and just read the stuff on item description and only after checking the wiki a bit I saw that this is linked to an ending (because holy hell I have been sent on some crazy errands). Basically if you play the game as intended...you can't really miss these requirements.

Of course, if you compete into speedrun any% souls then yeah you might miss these NPCs  but like...every single important NPC is in a "tasty"building shown on map or are referenced via item description.

 

The items though...yeah that Bolt of Gransax can be missed since the Capital is mad huge. But since it can be traded, that issue is somewhat voided.

 

This makes me wonder though...if people are angry with such hard to miss trophies...what about the Darkwraith covenant trophy from Dark Souls the original? ? you really need to play like a dumbass and way out of reason in order to find that stupid covenant. Idk, I feel that Miyazaki spoiled us with such chill trophies, compared to Feed Rice to Child ending from Sekiro for instance. You can miss that one a thousand times.

 

Anyway, stories for another times, carry on with the PSNP pvp!

[AJ_Radio]

8 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

I don't want anything on rails but yes, I want stuff that it for me - because I am the fucking customer here.

But that's not really it even. Elden Ring is for me, I love that shit. The trophy list however might not be. And that's worse than simply saying "ah this game is not really for me" - I'm fine with that, not everything can be for my tastes. What hurts, however, is when a lot of a game is for me and I dig it but then there are certain elements that spoil the experience - like missable trophies for example.

And of course, I want it to be perfect "for me" because I'm passionate about it. It would be worse if I simply didn't care

 

Believe me, you haven't gotten me figured out, you got me all wrong. I legitimately did the Ranked Online trophy in Mortal Kombat X, I platinumed THPS5 even though it was a slog and super annoying, I played Monster Hunter World for over 370h and am still working on the Plat, I played over 1600 hours of Guild Wars 1 and 2, I'm already at almost 500h in Elder Scrolls Online, I play dozens of Magic The Gathering Arena competitively every week, I spent thousands of hours on other games and I even played through Westwoods Balde Runner game twelve times! I'm a lot of things but I'm not one expecting content to be fed to me on rails or not willing to put in effort in games. However, I want the effort I put in to be exciting and challenging and not simply be redoing stuff just because the devs thought that might be "fun"! Missables are not fun for me. Multiple playthroughs are mostly not fun for me. There's nothing else to it.

 

Once again, that's not how the world works.

 

I don't know if you're desperately trying to troll at this point or if you are basically trying to get more people to join your side. Every single Souls game with the exception of Bloodborne (you can use Cloud/USB saves to unlock those ending trophies in one playthrough) requires at least two or more playthroughs. Any Souls veteran that has spent thousands of hours and has spent a decade playing the games off and on knows this like the back of their hand.

 

Elden Ring was hyped up for a long time, and I think a great many people would of been extremely let down if this was just a one playthrough affair. Compared to most AAA games, From Software actually adds some variety and spice in their games on New Game Plus. Enemies get harder, certain weapons become available, more doors are opened, etc etc.

 

And I'm not a serious From Software fan. I've only played three games from them, so I'm pretty far behind when it comes to what they have developed in the past several years.

 

You don't like redoing stuff? Then just do what you want on the first playthrough and move on.

 

These last several pages in this thread have been nothing but a huge waste of time with constant back and forth volleying.

[Sicho]

Just now, Timo425 said:

You are not saying that, but you are also failing to see how peculiar your tastes are compared to an average trophy hunter.

 

maybe they are peculiar but besides the fact that there are people in this very thread that agreed with me or voiced similar thinking (so I'm not alone in this, yay :D), I'm not looking at this from a trophy hunters perspective but from a gamer's perspective who quite likes collecting trophies but isn't too keen on sacrificing shitloads of their precious (and often limited) gaming time on them. Especially if the requirements feel (again, for me) like they unnecessarily restrict your playstyle.

[tranquility101]

I will play this game over and over and over again it is an absolute masterpiece. Just when I thought I've seen all the areas they pull out a whole new surprise and mystery. Truly one of the best Souls game though I am quite bad at horseback riding. This platinum list is also quite tame compared to previous ones. 60+ hours in and still barely scratched the surface. From Software are legends.

[Sicho]

3 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

Once again, that's not how the world works.

 

 

and you don't get that I'm not contesting that. 

 

I can accept that the world doesn't revolve around me but still voice what I would like it to be.

[starcrunch061]

7 minutes ago, Sicho said:

And sorry, being a casual or not, no one can tell me that they think it is good game design that in Horizon 2, if you forget to scan the boss and don't have a save you have to replay the whole fucking game just to get that one trophy ... missables are stupid and I will die on that hill  No one can convince me that they enjoy missing that scan and starting over.

 

It's dumb as shit, and at this point, I really think people are grading Elden Ring on the same curve that we've seen for so many other games. 

 

And it's not just trophies: things like scanning missable enemies has been annoying since the inclusion of bestiaries. I remember my disappointment at realizing that I missed a scan in Metroid Prime back in the day. 

 

I've loved FROM for many years (from the days of King's Field), despite so many clear flaws in game design. The good outweighs the bad. And it does for Elden Ring, too. But there's nothing more annoying than people who refuse to accept that there is anything which is bad.

 

6 minutes ago, Copanele said:

This makes me wonder though...if people are angry with such hard to miss trophies...what about the Darkwraith covenant trophy from Dark Souls the original? 

 

Well, for me, it was fucking terrible. TERRIBLE.

Edited March 7, 2022 by starcrunch061

[Sicho]

Just now, starcrunch061 said:

But there's nothing more annoying than people who refuse to accept that there is anything which is bad.

 

I also get the feeling that some people cannot comprehend that I can absolutely love Elden Ring or Dark Souls or Sekiro or whatever game and still be disappointed that trophies are missable. It's not always black and white. But in the gaming community online, binary thinking becomes more and more the norm. A game is either the best ever or it's dogshit. You either have to love Dark Souls - including the trophy list - or you are a hater lol. Loving Dark Souls but at the same time not liking the trophy requirements seems to be an alien concept to some. Because they have the feel to immediately defend the trophy list with "hurr hurr it's always been that way, it's how its supposed to be, git gud hurr hurr". It's blasphemy to suggest that it could be improved.

 

Elden Ring is amazing, the trophy list is - compared to previous Soulsborne games - quite okay but I personally would like the trophy list more if no missables and no multiple playthrough requirements were in it. That's it. That's all I'm saying.

But people are going on about how I want the game to be dumbed down and easy and on rails and I want Platinums handed to me ... simply because I don't like the concept of missables. It's baffling tbh.

[AJ_Radio]

7 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

maybe they are peculiar but besides the fact that there are people in this very thread that agreed with me or voiced similar thinking (so I'm not alone in this, yay :D), I'm not looking at this from a trophy hunters perspective but from a gamer's perspective who quite likes collecting trophies but isn't too keen on sacrificing shitloads of their precious (and often limited) gaming time on them. Especially if the requirements feel (again, for me) like they unnecessarily restrict your playstyle.

 

So something like using only the Plasma Cutter in Dead Space 1 is apparently a huge problem for you. Or all the playthroughs you have to do for Resident Evil HD, in addition to NOT SAVING in one playthrough and doing another playthrough where the enemies are invisible. Sounds pretty rough from the trophy descriptions.

 

7 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

Well, for me, it was fucking terrible. TERRIBLE.

 

Some of those missables in the original Dark Souls were indeed rough if you accidentally slipped up. So far nothing beats the original Demon's Souls in terms of missables. Dealing with that World Tendency crap and trying to not aggro Stockpile Thomas made for some tense moments.

 

I've been told Dark Souls III is the easiest in the trilogy, but nonetheless I'm looking forward to playing it when the time finally comes.

 

4 minutes ago, Sicho said:

But people are going on about how I want the game to be dumbed down and easy and on rails and I want Platinums handed to me ... simply because I don't like the concept of missables. It's baffling tbh.

 

I really think you're making these missables in Elden Ring far more severe than they really are. If you're that worried then simply read up on a guide. Otherwise enjoy the game at your own pace.

[starcrunch061]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

Some of those missables in the original Dark Souls were indeed rough if you accidentally slipped up. So far nothing beats the original Demon's Souls in terms of missables. Dealing with that World Tendency crap and trying to not aggro Stockpile Thomas made for some tense moments.

 

I was actually going to bring that up myself. Glad you did.

 

Love of Souls or not, you cannot tell me that it was good game design to have items dependent on WT, only to make WT vary if you played the game online!

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, Sicho said:

Because they have the feel to immediately defend the trophy list with "hurr hurr it's always been that way, it's how its supposed to be, git gud hurr hurr". It's blasphemy to suggest that it could be improved.

 

Some of us aren't being douchebag "Git Gud-ers" about it - we're just disagreeing 

 

 

[Timo425]

2 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

I was actually going to bring that up myself. Glad you did.

 

Love of Souls or not, you cannot tell me that it was good game design to have items dependent on WT, only to make WT vary if you played the game online!

It's one thing to not want something like WT in demon souls, its another thing to want literally all trophies to be story autopops in first playthrough.

[AJ_Radio]

3 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

I was actually going to bring that up myself. Glad you did.

 

Love of Souls or not, you cannot tell me that it was good game design to have items dependent on WT, only to make WT vary if you played the game online!

 

You had Character Tendency too. I know Dark Souls gave you the option to pay to "un-aggro" friendly NPCs if you accidentally attacked them. Don't recall there ever being that option in the original Demon's Souls.

 

It was definitely the very specific way you had to go to obtain the items that was a problem for me. Also, that skeleton you had to kill for that Pure Bladestone drop could of been mentally draining, but I got extremely lucky because I obtained it within a hour. Some people I heard had to do that for 20 - 40+ hours.

[Timo425]

1 minute ago, AJ_Radio said:

It was definitely the very specific way you had to go to obtain the items that was a problem for me. Also, that skeleton you had to kill for that Pure Bladestone drop could of been mentally draining, but I got extremely lucky because I obtained it within a hour. Some people I heard had to do that for 20 - 40+ hours.

I think it was like 8 hours for me... I even remember i was watching Family Guy and just grinding away, lol.

[Sicho]

10 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

It's one thing to not want something like WT in demon souls, its another thing to want literally all trophies to be story autopops in first playthrough.

 

sorry, but are you dense or something? Nowhere did I ever suggest trophies to be "story auto pops". Them not being missable is something completely different than what you are suggesting.

Case in point is the scan in Horizon 2. So easily missable and then you have to replay through the whole story again. But without that trophy, the game would still not be a "platinum autopop" as soon as you finished the story as there is so much else to do. But none of it is missable - that's the point!

The fact that the game gives you a platinum for only doing roughly 50% of what the game has to offer, is a subject for another debate. It's the missable that may literally void dozens of hours of progress on your platinum that's the issue! It's just shit. And not wanting this kind of stupid shit in a game is not the same as asking to get platinum trophies for free or no effort for fucks sake! Why is no one understanding that?

 

Super Meat Boy - super hard platinum to get, challenging but hey, not a single missable in sight! Get it now?? There can be no missables without the game becoming an "autopop" ?

 

EDIT just realized that Super Meat Boy might not be the best example as you probably will have to replay the levels many many many times ? But it's a whole different "beast" of a game and replaying platform puzzle levels is different than replaying a storyheavy open world game or something. I hope people get my point.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Sicho

[Lowlliet]

2 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

You had Character Tendency too. I know Dark Souls gave you the option to pay to "un-aggro" friendly NPCs if you accidentally attacked them. Don't recall there ever being that option in the original Demon's Souls.

 

It was definitely the very specific way you had to go to obtain the items that was a problem for me. Also, that skeleton you had to kill for that Pure Bladestone drop could of been mentally draining, but I got extremely lucky because I obtained it within a hour. Some people I heard had to do that for 20 - 40+ hours.

But, guys, everything you’re complaining about here is part of the challenge obtaining those items and the trophy. As I said before, trophies are achievements for doing something special in the game and yes, often in specific ways. How devs intended to get them. 
 

If you want games where trophies are easy and not missable, you can find those games. Even better, you can go and make those games. But you can’t force devs to make trophies according to you and your needs. It’s stupid. 
 

F.e. I got platinum from Titan Souls, which you have to complete without running or on Hard mode. Did something force me to play that way? No! But those were the things I needed to do for platinum, so I learned how to play that game good and got it. That’s how it’s supposed to be. 

[Timo425]

6 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

sorry, but are you dense or something? Nowhere did I ever suggest trophies to be "story auto pops". Them not being missable is something completely different than what you are suggesting.

 

You have 2 conditions, no ng+ and no missables. These are literally story related trophies. Hence, story "autopops".

And no, you can't fix this simply by "add option to go back and do it after finishing the game", this looks like a game developer nightmare and quite limiting.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Timo425

[Sicho]

12 minutes ago, Timo425 said:

You have 2 conditions, no ng+ and no missables. These are literally story related trophies. Hence, story "autopops".

how is the missable trophy "Time for Rolling" in Demon's Souls in any way story-related? It's a silly thing you must do but you can lock yourself out of it if you don't know what you have to do and disable the ballista. It's a very stupid trophy in my opinion - not for the thing that it requires you to do but for the fact that it is missable and possible to lock yourself out of it in your playthrough. That's simply unnecessarily "cruel".

 

Having that trophy in without it being missable though would not make the game a story autopop, as there is no relation to the story whatsoever. It would also not make the trophy list "worse" in any way - at least in my opinion.

 

And examples like that are legion.

 

In the case of ER, there is, afaik, a missable weapon. Again, not story-related at all. It's more an exploration-related trophy, which in itself is fine, but it's sullied by the fact that you can apparently lock yourself out of it if - again - you don't know what you have to do. Trophies like that grind my gears because, in most of these cases, you literally have to look up what needs to be done because it is super obscure sometimes. And again, I have no problems with there being obscure stuff and secrets in games, I have however problems if trophies are tied to those secrets AND those secrets are done in a way that you can lock yourself out of them, making them missable.

 

It would be easy to either make the weapon available multiple times in the game (which, afaik is actually the case here as the NPC you need to kill disappears but apparently is available again at some other point in the game?) or design it in a way that you might miss it in the sense of "you did not find out that you could do this or that" but not miss it in the sense of there is only a limited time frame to get it and afterward the only way is to restart your playthrough.

It's two different things really. There's missable in the sense of "oh you did not find that" but you can still go look for it later on or it being missable in the sense that's discussed in this thread that means if you don't get it at a specific point, you have to start the whole game over. Two very different things.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Sicho