How would a Leaderboard look without Auto-popping and Stacking?

[Darling Baphomet]

8 minutes ago, MrShovelware said:

If you’re not physically playing the game you have no business getting a platinum

 

Most self-aware shovelware enthusiast

[diskdocx]

7 hours ago, Ragowit said:

 

Hello again! You're correct that those trophies for those games don't contribute to your leaderboard ranking.

• Spider-Man/FF7R have an updated list on newer platform, which new players should play instead of buying the old version.
• Walking Dead have a collection, which new players should play instead of buying all stand-alone games.
• MotoGP have a "main" game list, which new players should play instead of buying a stripped down version.
• Zen Pinball/Bejeweled are delisted, which new players can't play since they don't exist anymore and thus can't compete with others on the leaderboards.

IF you were a new player, starting today, wouldn't the above feel better for you (as a fresh new player)? Meaning that new players can compete with "older" players.

 

But I know what you're saying. It "hurts" to see that yourself have trophies that isn't worth anything anymore. I myself have lots of trophies like your examples. But with PSN100 you have to stop thinking about "you", and start thinking about "others". That's the idea anyway.

 

 

 

 

It only becomes obsolete if there's a different in the trophy list! For the sake of leaderboard, you can't have two versions of the same game. How should the leaderboard calculate the points? You have Uncharted PS3 with 1350 points and another players have Uncharted PS4 with 1515 points? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. PSN100 chooses the newer one. Sucks if you have already played the old one, I know! But this is already how it is on all other leaderboards out there. And read above about having to think about others instead of yourself when browsing PSN100.

 

 

 

 

Thank you, and I hear you. I have Uncharted och Fight for Fortune (ugh...) as well, sucks that it's delisted and thus no longer counts on PSN100. As I typed earlier in this post about delisted, "new players can't play since they don't exist anymore and thus can't compete with others on the leaderboards". I know it's hard, and nothing other sites do, but when browsing PSN100 you have to stop thinking "Argh! My hard earned trophies aren't worth anything anymore!" and start thinking "This is good for future generation of new players. This mean they can (theoretically) compete for first place, which is a good thing."

Just think what will happen if Sony actually bans all those shovelware and remove it from the store. It would cement the leaderboard and there's really no point in looking on it. PSN100 would simply mark them as delisted and leaderboard is still competing.

 

 

 

Anyway, thank you all for your input and the language used. It's actually a discussion. Kudos!
We are however going OT from the OP...

So why aren’t you removing games with closed online servers? Those games can no longer be played by new players, and many trophies including the platinum can no longer be earned. Like delisted games, shouldn’t those all be removed, following the above logic?

[MonaSaxPayne]

2 hours ago, MrShovelware said:

It would look better.

 

auto popping shouldn’t be a thing nor should it be respected. If you’re not physically playing the game you have no business getting a platinum

 

the irony of a shovelware connoisseur criticizing games that aren't "respectable" ?

[Dry]

2 hours ago, MrShovelware said:

It would look better.

 

Auto-popping shouldn’t be a thing nor should it be respected. If you’re not physically playing a game you have no business getting a platinum.

That would be good advice, if you were somebody else.

[ObsiEez]

It honestly wouldn't look any different. The people at the top of the leaderboards would still be at the top

[NZBigC]

On 1/9/2023 at 10:51 AM, Darling Baphomet said:

You can get a decent idea of what a 'clean' leaderboard would look like from the VR leaderboard. No autopops or shovelware, thank god.

 

 

Yes? Autopops take even less effort than shovelware platinums. Plus they fuck up rarity for people who legitimately play the games, e.g. Spider-Man Remastered on PS5 has a 63% rarity while Miles Morales is 50% despite the fact that Miles Morales is a standalone DLC and Spider-Man Remastered is a full game. Just because other people are having a shit buffet doesn't mean you have to fill up a plate yourself.

 

Less effort? Totally disagree with you there.

 

1. How long and how much effort does it take to get the platinum trophies for Fortnite on PS4 and PS5?

2. How long and how much effort does it take to get the platinum trophies for The Jumping Muffin and Santa Claus: Breakthrough Gaming Arcade (Or any two shovelware games)?

 

 

[janzor88]

So if you complete Berlin Marathon, you should automatically get the medal from London Marathon and other cities - because you've proven you can do it?

 

What stupid and failed logic is this?

 

No idea why Sony allowed auto-popping platinums and stacking in the first place. 

More profits probably.

 

It should have been like on Xbox, where games share an achievement list no matter the platform.

[Sikutai]

3 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

So if you complete Berlin Marathon, you should automatically get the medal from London Marathon and other cities - because you've proven you can do it?

 

What stupid and failed logic is 

 

The Berlin Marathon and the London Marathon are two different games. Your comparison is not correct.

 

4 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

 

It should have been like on Xbox, where games share an achievement list no matter the platform.

 

On this point, however, I agree with you.

 

 

[janzor88]

2 minutes ago, Sikutai said:

 

The Berlin Marathon and the London Marathon are two different games. Your comparison is not correct.

 

As are games with all their randomness, especially online portions.

[Darling Baphomet]

1 hour ago, NZBigC said:

1. How long and how much effort does it take to get the platinum trophies for Fortnite on PS4 and PS5?

2. How long and how much effort does it take to get the platinum trophies for The Jumping Muffin and Santa Claus: Breakthrough Gaming Arcade (Or any two shovelware games)?

 

See, the problem with these arguments is that autopoppers seem to assume that platinuming one games, for whatever reason, entitles them to two platinums. It does not. The rest of us have been receiving one platinum per game platinumed for years and have been doing fine. Earning one platinum does not mean you earned another separate platinum. That's the same logic as shovelware spammers who justify shovelware by saying that it's a 'well earned break from hard trophies'.

 

As to your second point: How would you like to play a little game? I call it "which one is the shovelware platinum." It's very engaging.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Darling Baphomet

[Ragowit]

6 hours ago, Starlighthed211 said:

Well…you can still play PS4 games on your PS5 and play some PS3 games on PS Plus Premium…

 

Other than that I agree. I do not want to re-play dead games like Ice Age: Scrat’s Adventures because they have a PS5 version out (and it has no autopop) for example.

On PSN100, you don't have to re-play Ice Age: Scrat's Adventures. It's the same list on both PS4 and PS5, so they are merged as one game entry.

 

4 hours ago, diskdocx said:

So why aren’t you removing games with closed online servers? Those games can no longer be played by new players, and many trophies including the platinum can no longer be earned. Like delisted games, shouldn’t those all be removed, following the above logic?

I do, don't I? I tag unobtainable trophies and they aren't counted towards any stats. It's currently a manual process, so I'm probably a bit behind. But I have asked Husky for permission to use his data, which I have gotten, but haven't had time to implement an automatic system for it yet.

Here's an example of a couple trophies unobtainable: https://psn100.net/game/3988-rock-band-blitz

Here's an example of all trophies unobtainable, but the game isn't tagged as delisted since a physical version exist: https://psn100.net/game/3767-battleborn

 

If you're a player going for 100% stats, you never have to worry about server shutdown and glitched trophies. Those trophies are taken out of the equation. So on PSN100%, you can always reach 100%.

 

On another note, PSN100 is very hard on cheaters. One strike and you're out. If you have one hidden game, you're out (but you're in again if you unhid every game). If you haven't earned a trophy for over a year, you're out (but if you earn a trophy again, you're in).

Edited January 10, 2023 by Ragowit

[DrBloodmoney]

1 hour ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

See, the problem with these arguments is that autopoppers seem to assume that platinuming one games, for whatever reason, entitles them to two platinums. It does not.

 

See, the problem with this argument... is that it is demonstrably and axiomatically false. 

 

The existence of auto pop means, for better or worse, platinuming one game does entitle people to two platinums.

Whether you like it or not, the entitlement is self-evident.

 

In fact, in some cases, it is not only an entitlement, but a necessity.

Hitman 3, for example.

[Darling Baphomet]

28 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

The existence of auto pop means, for better or worse, platinuming one game does entitle people to two platinums.

Whether you like it or not, the entitlement is self-evident.

 

... Yeah, no. First off, this is a thread about alternative leaderboards - I really shouldn't have to elaborate further on this point. And I won't.

 

And secondly, no, the entitlement is not self-evident, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. If you were entitled to two platinums for every game platinumed, that would be the standard. Sony might even go so far as to enforce it. It is not. And why is it not enforced, you might ask? Why, because you are not entitled to two platinums for the price of one, just like how you are not entitled to earning platinums in five minutes.

 

The fact that individual games choose to give you platinums for no effort is besides the point. And furthermore, those individual games aren't actually under any obligation to follow through on your expectations of them. If the Jumping Low Hanging Fruit glitches out and takes an hour (the horror!) to platinum instead of the expected five minutes... tough fucking luck. Similarly, games like Worms Rumble which have broken autopops are under no obligation to fix their trophies. Because gamers are entitled to neither five minute platinums nor fifty second ones.

 

And lastly, I have to say, I did not expect you of all people to come out in support of gamer entitlement. 2023 is turning out to be a surprising year!

Edited January 10, 2023 by Darling Baphomet

[DrBloodmoney]

3 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

... Yeah, no. First off, this is a thread about alternative leaderboards - I really shouldn't have to elaborate further on this point. And I won't.

 

And secondly, no, the entitlement is not self-evident, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. If you were entitled to two platinums for every game platinumed, that would be the standard. Sony might even go so far as to enforce it. It is not. And why is it not enforced, you might ask? Why, because you are not entitled to two platinums for the price of one, just like how you are not entitled to earning platinums in five minutes.

 

The fact that individual games choose to give you platinums for no effort is besides the point. And furthermore, those individual games aren't actually under any obligation to follow through on your expectations of them. If the Jumping Low Hanging Fruit glitches out and takes an hour (the horror!) to platinum instead of the expected five minutes... tough fucking luck. Similarly, games like Worms Rumble which have broken autopops are under no obligation to fix their trophies. Because gamers are entitled to neither five minute platinums nor fifty second ones.

 

 

I don't think you know what an "entitlement" is.

 

It's just the right to get something.

 

as in "This voucher entitles the bearer to a free Big Mac".

 

If Autopop exists, then that entitles people to pop a second free platinum for those games.

 

They have that entitlement, granted by the existence of the auto pop function. 

That's what the word means. 

 

 

And as far as this goes:

3 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

And lastly, I have to say, I did not expect you of all people to come out in support of gamer entitlement. 2023 is turning out to be a surprising year!

 

...I really cannot fathom what exactly you mean by this.

 

 

Whatever you imagine the version of me that exists in your mind to believe about auto-popping platinums, shovel-ware products, alternate leaderboards and whatnot...

...I can assure you that one thing that I adhere fairly strictly to, is striving to use the correct words when arguing my point.

 

 

I think what you meant to say, was:

"the problem with these arguments is that autopoppers seem to assume that platinuming one games [sic], for whatever reason, should entitle them to two platinums. It should not."

 

but you didn't.

hence my post... and your ensuing, calendar-based "surprise".

[MarCCeoN]

3 hours ago, Ragowit said:

On another note, PSN100 is very hard on cheaters. One strike and you're out. If you have one hidden game, you're out (but you're in again if you unhid every game). If you haven't earned a trophy for over a year, you're out (but if you earn a trophy again, you're in).

 

Hello Ragowit,

 

First of all, I would like to commend you for this great and interesting ranking list. In any case, it reflects the places better than most ranking lists, even if there is a lot of potential for discussion.

Unfortunately I have hidden trophies due to a broken Vita-Trick trophy list.

To understand your decision to remove players with hidden trophies from the list, what is the reason? Is it for programming reasons or just that everyone who hides trophies is a cheater?

 

Greeting
Marc

[sweeping-lamp3]

7 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

How would you like to play a little game? I call it "which one is the shovelware platinum." It's very engaging.

 

Is the shovelware platinum the one on the right?

 

I'm only basing it on the usernames I recognize.

I've seen some of the names before on shovelware lists.
There is also 1 username I recognize that I believe does not play shovelware.

[diskdocx]

8 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

See, the problem with these arguments is that autopoppers seem to assume that platinuming one games, for whatever reason, entitles them to two platinums. It does not. The rest of us have been receiving one platinum per game platinumed for years and have been doing fine. Earning one platinum does not mean you earned another separate platinum. That's the same logic as shovelware spammers who justify shovelware by saying that it's a 'well earned break from hard trophies'.

 

As to your second point: How would you like to play a little game? I call it "which one is the shovelware platinum." It's very engaging.

Clearly the autopop is the one on the left. Poor choice that you used though, as some can be done in 1-2 seconds.

 

The flaw here is that the total number of games that feature an autopop, cumulative, across all systems, is less than the number of new spam/shovelware games that are released each week. Even if you removed the spam regional stacks, there are still far more new sub 5 minute games released every month than there are all time for autopops - which is perhaps 2 dozen games?

 

Like, it is a hill you can choose to die on, but really it is a very insignificant hill. A leaderboard removing autopops is going to have an insignificant impact on overall standings.

7 hours ago, Ragowit said:

On PSN100, you don't have to re-play Ice Age: Scrat's Adventures. It's the same list on both PS4 and PS5, so they are merged as one game entry.

 

I do, don't I? I tag unobtainable trophies and they aren't counted towards any stats. It's currently a manual process, so I'm probably a bit behind. But I have asked Husky for permission to use his data, which I have gotten, but haven't had time to implement an automatic system for it yet.

Here's an example of a couple trophies unobtainable: https://psn100.net/game/3988-rock-band-blitz

Here's an example of all trophies unobtainable, but the game isn't tagged as delisted since a physical version exist: https://psn100.net/game/3767-battleborn

 

If you're a player going for 100% stats, you never have to worry about server shutdown and glitched trophies. Those trophies are taken out of the equation. So on PSN100%, you can always reach 100%.

 

On another note, PSN100 is very hard on cheaters. One strike and you're out. If you have one hidden game, you're out (but you're in again if you unhid every game). If you haven't earned a trophy for over a year, you're out (but if you earn a trophy again, you're in).

Thanks for the clarification. I was assuming you would remove the whole game, not just individual trophies. Makes sense now that you have explained it. Ultimately I still don't think this is a very fair way to run a leaderboard, and it really does prioritize new spam, but at least it is clear.

 

I did note a few games that need cleaning up - you have TLOU PS3 as obsolete, but have kept the Remaster on PS4. I assume this should be replaced by the PS5 release. I also noted the Metro Last Light (PS3) and LL Redux (PS4) are both counted. I assume the PS3 release should be obsolete.

 

Couple of questions - how do I remove 0% games from my profile? I have deleted the games, never earned trophies, and they are no longer on my profile on any other site, but still on your tracker? And how are you counting rarity? I assume it isn't based on actual trophy rarity, but rather how common the game is from an ownership perspective? Like, GOW 2018 is worth 6 points, TLOU Remaster is 136 points, but Dungeonoid is worth 78,316?!?!

[Vern3r0z]

what bothers me about autopop is, that they show up in the fastest achievers.

[MonaSaxPayne]

7 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I don't think you know what an "entitlement" is.

 

It's just the right to get something.

 

as in "This voucher entitles the bearer to a free Big Mac".

 

If Autopop exists, then that entitles people to pop a second free platinum for those games.

 

They have that entitlement, granted by the existence of the auto pop function. 

That's what the word means. 

 

this is correct 

 

however, it also means the belief that one is inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment

 

which, given the overall tone of his post, is the context I believe he might have been alluding to? (he can correct me if I'm mistaken)

 

however, even then, I don't know how he arrived at that conclusion, because even among fans of autopops like myself (free trophies after all yayyy).. I've never seen anyone post things like "ALL games should have free autopops"  

[Darling Baphomet]

8 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I don't think you know what an "entitlement" is.

 

It's just the right to get something.

 

as in "This voucher entitles the bearer to a free Big Mac".

 

If Autopop exists, then that entitles people to pop a second free platinum for those games.

 

Except it doesn't, as I've already said, because games have no obligation to make sure their autopops are even obtainable. If Sony were giving out free Big Mac vouchers, I'd think they'd make sure people actually receive their Big Macs. But they're not.

 

And no, being able to autopop specific games does not mean you are entitled to autopop every platinum you earn.

 

2 hours ago, diskdocx said:

Clearly the autopop is the one on the left. Poor choice that you used though, as some can be done in 1-2 seconds.

 

The flaw here is that the total number of games that feature an autopop, cumulative, across all systems, is less than the number of new spam/shovelware games that are released each week. Even if you removed the spam regional stacks, there are still far more new sub 5 minute games released every month than there are all time for autopops - which is perhaps 2 dozen games?

 

I used the games they mentioned, namely PS5 Fortnite and The Jumping Turbo.

 

I'm not saying that there are as many autopops as shovelware platinums - what I'm saying is autopops are worse than shovelware platinums individually, because they take even less effort, but also ruin rarities and fastest achiever leaderboards for legitimate players. Shovelware platinums at least have no effect on the rarities or fastest achievers for actual games.

 

And even if they aren't as significant as shovelware platinums, someone being able to get... let's be conservative and say 20% more platinums than a legitimate player is still a huge advantage. And you can gain bigger leads than that, considering many people specifically go after PS4 plats that have autopops on PS5.

 

1 hour ago, Vern3r0z said:

what bothers me about autopop is, that they show up in the fastest achievers.

 

They muck up rarities, too. Like Spider-Man Remastered had a significantly higher rarity than Miles Morales, which is absurd, because Miles Morales is a standalone DLC and Spider-Man Remastered is the full game.

[DrBloodmoney]

 

2 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

And no, being able to autopop specific games does not mean you are entitled to autopop every platinum you earn.

 

No one said they were, or suggested anything of the sort.

 

you said:

 

11 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

the problem with these arguments is that autopoppers seem to assume that platinuming one games, for whatever reason, entitles them to two platinums. It does not.

 

And I pointed out that the mere fact that some games have auto pop, and that it works for the full trophy list, including the second platinum, and that it's not against any Sony or site rules...

...makes it demonstrably clear that people are, in fact, entitled to do so...

 

...since, y'know, they are. 

[diskdocx]

19 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

I used the games they mentioned, namely PS5 Fortnite and The Jumping Turbo.

 

I'm not saying that there are as many autopops as shovelware platinums - what I'm saying is autopops are worse than shovelware platinums individually, because they take even less effort, but also ruin rarities and fastest achiever leaderboards for legitimate players. Shovelware platinums at least have no effect on the rarities or fastest achievers for actual games.

 

And even if they aren't as significant as shovelware platinums, someone being able to get... let's be conservative and say 20% more platinums than a legitimate player is still a huge advantage. And you can gain bigger leads than that, considering many people specifically go after PS4 plats that have autopops on PS5.

 

 

They muck up rarities, too. Like Spider-Man Remastered had a significantly higher rarity than Miles Morales, which is absurd, because Miles Morales is a standalone DLC and Spider-Man Remastered is the full game.

No argument on the fastest achiever and rarity fronts. I'd prefer games NOT autopop. But those that do are a small enough number that they really don't have an overall impact on most of those boards - and removing the games from leaderboards, I will maintain, is still insignificant. 

 

Certainly 20% is a vast over estimate. I would say even 2% would be a stretch. Again, what are there, 2 dozen autopops? I think I have maybe 5 on my account - Sound Shapes x2, Sly Cooper, Motorstorm RC. I can't think of any others, although both Guardians of the Galaxy and Dirt 5 are games I could autopop. Lets say I'm wrong and I have 10 autopops - out of 1600 plats. That is 0.6% - which is a far cry from your 20% figure. 

 

Anyone low enough on the leaderboards to have 20% of their games autopopped is a statistically insignificant rounding error in the rankings.

[MonaSaxPayne]

26 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

And no, being able to autopop specific games does not mean you are entitled to autopop every platinum you earn.

 

u keep saying this. I've never seen anyone make this argument anywhere 

[Darling Baphomet]

30 minutes ago, diskdocx said:

No argument on the fastest achiever and rarity fronts. I'd prefer games NOT autopop. But those that do are a small enough number that they really don't have an overall impact on most of those boards - and removing the games from leaderboards, I will maintain, is still insignificant. 

 

Certainly 20% is a vast over estimate. I would say even 2% would be a stretch. Again, what are there, 2 dozen autopops? I think I have maybe 5 on my account - Sound Shapes x2, Sly Cooper, Motorstorm RC. I can't think of any others, although both Guardians of the Galaxy and Dirt 5 are games I could autopop. Lets say I'm wrong and I have 10 autopops - out of 1600 plats. That is 0.6% - which is a far cry from your 20% figure. 

 

Anyone low enough on the leaderboards to have 20% of their games autopopped is a statistically insignificant rounding error in the rankings.

 

Do keep in mind that your own numbers are inflated by shovelware spam. Frankly any analysis based on your own trophy hunting habits is irrelevant unless specifically applied to shovelware spammers. For a mid range trophy hunter with a few hundred platinums, a "few dozen" autopops are not an insignificant number, especially since that number will only increase with time, particularly once PSVR2 releases with its free upgrades.

 

47 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

No one said they were, or suggested anything of the sort.

 

Then, as usual, you're arguing with a strawman.

 

38 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

u keep saying this. I've never seen anyone make this argument anywhere 

 

Except that the most common defense of autopops I've seen is, "I already platinumed the game, so why should I have to play it again?!"

[Komrade_Dusty]

On 1/8/2023 at 10:42 AM, Stedde said:

I am not really a fan of stacking trophies. Never seen the really value in it (I am not rush in climbing the leaderboard )
In my humble opinon you get the value from complete a game once. Getting the same value with not extra effort 3 times or more is a strange phenomena.
The same thing about auto-popping. You have completed a game once, why should you get the value twice with not extra effort?

 

With this said, how big of a difference to the leaderboard would this do? A game can/would only get counted once, a more "clean" Leaderboard.
Would there be a lot of movement among all the trophy hunters in the current leaderboard or the list would look the same, do you think?

I really don't think it would look all that different. At the end of the day, there aren't really all that many games that offer auto-unlocking. I think the number of people doing full playthroughs of a game twice wouldn't be all that high either. If something like this were implemented, it would make little difference.