How would a Leaderboard look without Auto-popping and Stacking?

[Stedde]

2 hours ago, Vault-TecPhantom said:

So, let me get this straight: if there is a game that somebody loves enough to not only play more than once but also go for the platinum, for instance, say The Witcher 3 which takes about 200 hours and doesn't support auto popping as far as I know then there's no value or effort in that because it's the same game? Respectfully, this take is so bad that I honestly think you're gonna look back on it in a few years and cringe, I really do.

This is were my current thinking is, yes. 
Of course they can and should play games they love more than once but then it's not for the trophies. It's "just" for playing a great game, which is something I do and enjoy. I am happy have earned to the trophies once, they from a trophy perspective there is nothing more to get.

But let's what the future holds, maybe you are right and I will change my mind.  

 

45 minutes ago, MilanYildirim said:

Shovelbros pop 100s of plats in one day by spending 1 minute on each and you are bothered with autopop? Man…

That is a totally different topic. 
What I was thinking of is one clean leaderboard with only one version of a game that counts.
I do not put any emphasize if it's a crappy game (which most shovelware are) or not. ?

 

26 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

You can get a decent idea of what a 'clean' leaderboard would look like from the VR leaderboard. No autopops or shovelware, thank god.

Thanks for the tip!

[Ich1994-1994]

24 minutes ago, Stedde said:

This is were my current thinking is, yes. 
Of course they can and should play games they love more than once but then it's not for the trophies. It's "just" for playing a great game, which is something I do and enjoy. I am happy have earned to the trophies once, they from a trophy perspective there is nothing more to get.

But let's what the future holds, maybe you are right and I will change my mind.  

 

That is a totally different topic. 
What I was thinking of is one clean leaderboard with only one version of a game that counts.
I do not put any emphasize if it's a crappy game (which most shovelware are) or not. ?

 

Thanks for the tip!

I played close to every Lego game. Means in a lot of cases 3 versions of each game (ps3,ps4,vita). I enjoyed all of them multiple times and I enjoyed getting the trophiesmultiple times. Would I have bought and played them all 3 times without trophies? Most likely not. I dont really see how it would be an improvement for the leaderboard ifthose stack would not count for me now. And why that would makes it unclean. Also the borderlandsgames have all played double. I love the fact that I have the opportunity to go back to a game I liked and experience it again. Often times lng after the original playthrought when I have forgotten a lot of details about it already. And for me trophies are part of the experience that I like to relive. 
i would even go so far that I would like if it was possible to reset a trophylist so that I can redo it. (O maybe partially reset to not have to redo online trophies of shut down servers^^)

if you remove stacking all that happens is that guys like me have 440 instead of 470 plats. The accounts at the top of the leaderboard will still be stuffed with shovelware crap

[melodicmizery]

it would prob look like 2012 when hakoom was still ahead of everyone and #1 lol. or pretty much the ps3 leaderboard

[DeepEyes7]

2 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Okay, but you're not platinuming an AAA game, you're loading a game and instantly getting a free platinum. Even most shovelware platinums take at least 5-10 minutes. One autopop takes less effort than one shovelware platinum.

 

I think the point is that you need to play a not-so-short-and-not-so-easy game to autopop it, for the shovelware ones you dont need anything else. With the time that you need to pop the OG plat and then autopop you can unlock a lot of shovelware plats without any prerequisite...

[Darling Baphomet]

3 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

I think the point is that you need to play a not-so-short-and-not-so-easy game to autopop it, for the shovelware ones you dont need anything else. With the time that you need to pop the OG plat and then autopop you can unlock a lot of shovelware plats without any prerequisite...

 

That's the problem, though - if you platinumed a game, you've already been rewarded for your effort with a platinum trophy. The autopop platinum is an entirely effortless addition to that.

[Meikoro]

While stacking certain Games like RPG or Fighting Games is proud and need to show of, the only Way to fix this here would might be to remove the Stats with tagged Shovelware on the Profiles.

 

I also miss here any Custom Leaderboard Sections on the Forums. Would be rahter simple to make another Sub Forum for this and let the Community handle itself.

[Ragowit]

16 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Take something like The Witcher 3 - it’s a very popular game, but a long and involved one, so the majority of people who platted it on Ps4 will likely not re-plat on Ps5.

 

However, because the PS5 version exists, now everyone who did plat it on PS4 just had those points voided.

 

Since there are a lot of PS4 games getting new PS5 versions, the fact that most people WONT re-plat or re-pop them, means PSN100s methodology does have a big effect - it renders games that are big, popular and successful enough to warrant any re-release null-and-void for regular, non-stacking players.

 

Hey-ho! Owner of PSN100 here. Thanks for having such a great interest in my site!

 

However, PSN100 have never voided a PS4 list simply because a PS5 list exists. I don't know where you get this from? PSN100 tag a list as obsolete if there's a difference between them. With your example, Witcher 3, the lists are the same. They are merged together as one. One combined PS4 & PS5 entry. So if you have plat the PS4 version, PSN100 count it perfectly fine, and you don't need to play the PS5 version for 200 hours again. That's the point of the site. To stop being "forced" to replay games you've already at 100%. https://psn100.net/game/12387-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt

 

However, PSN100 needs to draw a line somewhere. And if there's a difference in trophy list, the newer one is prioritized because with time so will that one be the most accessible for newer players. It's a loss for older players who have already played it. But then again, at every other PSN leaderboard out there this is what you have to do anyway.

 

Also, PSN100 is open-sourced, you're welcome to code and submit your own solutions and have discussion ongoing to maybe get your work into the site. You can even search the issues for obsolete games and have a discussion open to undo such tags. https://github.com/Ragowit/psn100

 

I don't say the site is perfect, but it tries to do something else. If you don't like it, that's fine to!

[DrBloodmoney]

23 minutes ago, Ragowit said:

 

Hey-ho! Owner of PSN100 here. Thanks for having such a great interest in my site!

 

However, PSN100 have never voided a PS4 list simply because a PS5 list exists. I don't know where you get this from? PSN100 tag a list as obsolete if there's a difference between them. With your example, Witcher 3, the lists are the same. They are merged together as one. One combined PS4 & PS5 entry. So if you have plat the PS4 version, PSN100 count it perfectly fine, and you don't need to play the PS5 version for 200 hours again. That's the point of the site. To stop being "forced" to replay games you've already at 100%. https://psn100.net/game/12387-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt

 

However, PSN100 needs to draw a line somewhere. And if there's a difference in trophy list, the newer one is prioritized because with time so will that one be the most accessible for newer players. It's a loss for older players who have already played it. But then again, at every other PSN leaderboard out there this is what you have to do anyway.

 

 

Hi!

 

Apologies if I'm misinterpreting the site info, but I had quick look at my own profile on the site, and can see multiple examples where a game I have is flagged as "obsolete", despite my not having the newer version of the game. These are all accompanied by the fairly cut-and-dried statement: "No trophies will be accounted for on any leaderboard" 

 

 

For example:

 

 

 

(I don't actually have the newer versions on my profile)

 

 

 

 

 

There are also ones where, for example, an "anthology" version exists with it's own seperate, different trophy list, but this seems to result in the same message for all the base versions, for example:

 

 

 

 

Or where the game is itself a "compact" version, but the message says no trophies will be counted, due to the existence of the "main" game, for example:

 

 

 

Or where the game is delisted, so the similar message exists:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll freely admit, if it is just an issue of the wording of the statement - the trophies in fact, are accounted for, but the message is just worded awkwardly - that's entirely possible (I haven't gone in and manually checked the total trophy count / LB positions etc. to see how they tally up)...

 

...but given the relative specificity of the statement "No trophies will be accounted for on any leaderboard" - you can surely understand how that would be easily misinterpreted, and the (admittedly, possibly incorrect,) conclusion drawn from it?

 

[MonaSaxPayne]

42 minutes ago, Ragowit said:

However, PSN100 needs to draw a line somewhere. And if there's a difference in trophy list, the newer one is prioritized because with time so will that one be the most accessible for newer players. It's a loss for older players who have already played it.

 

if I understand this correctly, I totally disagree with it. why should an older game automatically become obsolete just because a newer version exists, even if u never played the newer version?

 

a stack should only count... if u actually stacked 2 or more of the same game... and in that case.. only the version u happened to play first

[diskdocx]

43 minutes ago, Ragowit said:

 

Hey-ho! Owner of PSN100 here. Thanks for having such a great interest in my site!

 

However, PSN100 have never voided a PS4 list simply because a PS5 list exists. I don't know where you get this from? PSN100 tag a list as obsolete if there's a difference between them. With your example, Witcher 3, the lists are the same. They are merged together as one. One combined PS4 & PS5 entry. So if you have plat the PS4 version, PSN100 count it perfectly fine, and you don't need to play the PS5 version for 200 hours again. That's the point of the site. To stop being "forced" to replay games you've already at 100%. https://psn100.net/game/12387-the-witcher-3-wild-hunt

 

However, PSN100 needs to draw a line somewhere. And if there's a difference in trophy list, the newer one is prioritized because with time so will that one be the most accessible for newer players. It's a loss for older players who have already played it. But then again, at every other PSN leaderboard out there this is what you have to do anyway.

 

Also, PSN100 is open-sourced, you're welcome to code and submit your own solutions and have discussion ongoing to maybe get your work into the site. You can even search the issues for obsolete games and have a discussion open to undo such tags. https://github.com/Ragowit/psn100

 

I don't say the site is perfect, but it tries to do something else. If you don't like it, that's fine to!

I appreciate how you've tried to create a unique leaderboard, and in particular the merging of multiple regional stacks makes significant sense.

 

The way you approach the obsolete lists is, in my opinion, non-sensical. In fact, it FORCES you to stack, not the opposite.

 

Having a new, different/updated list should prompt the game to be treated as a separate entity, not a stack. Since you can't merge the lists, by making the original obsolete, you are arbitrarily punishing people who don't stack.

 

Lets look at the Uncharted series as an example

 

https://psn100.net/game?search=uncharted

 

I have completed PS3 Uncharted, Uncharted 2 (to 100%) and Uncharted 3 (plat but not 100%). I have also completed Uncharted 4 and Lost Legacy on Ps4, and Golden Abyss and Fight for Fortune on Vita.

 

Of these 7 games, the only game you accept for leaderboard stats is Golden Abyss. The 3 PS3 games have all been made obsolete due to the newer (easier) PS4 Remasters, UC4 and LL have been made obsolete by the PS5 combined Collection, and Fight for Fortune is obsolete because it's been delisted (what arbitrary rationale is there for that?).

 

I get you are trying something different, but unless I completely misunderstand, I would have to replay/stack the Remasters and Collection because you have voided the original games I already completed? Well, at least until the Re-remasters come out and I'll have to do them again?

[richardas_alex]

Really need this leaderboard too. This leaderboard chasing started being worthless for me, I got sick of people with autopops ranking higher than me. That`s why I hid my profile entirely...

[DeepEyes7]

14 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

That's the problem, though - if you platinumed a game, you've already been rewarded for your effort with a platinum trophy. The autopop platinum is an entirely effortless addition to that.

 

Yes I agree, still given the little amount of plats that you can autopop from other platinumed versions in comparisson with the humongous number of shovelware plats is just my opinion that there is more work behind the autopops that the shovelware ones, if there was the same number of plats of each type then I agree that autopops would be even easier.

[SuchRemorse]

21 hours ago, Elvick_ said:

Sure I could replay the other version I already did, but why not get another platinum in the process?

One reason would be because you have to buy the game over and over again. I don't know about you but I don't really enjoy buying the same game 5 times. Now if its a free upgrade like ps4 to ps5 and you get the upgrade and you can get the trophies that's cool. But I wouldn't pay 3 times for a NA EU and JP version of the same game. 

[Elvick_]

8 minutes ago, SuchRemorse said:

One reason would be because you have to buy the game over and over again. I don't know about you but I don't really enjoy buying the same game 5 times. Now if its a free upgrade like ps4 to ps5 and you get the upgrade and you can get the trophies that's cool. But I wouldn't pay 3 times for a NA EU and JP version of the same game. 

If only games went on sale. Oh well. 

[SuchRemorse]

1 minute ago, Elvick_ said:

If only games went on sale. Oh well. 

Sale means you still have to BUY them... Sales aren't free. I don't know about you but even if a game goes on sale for $5 and it has 3 stacks. I would rather spend the extra money on a new game. Why buy the same game over JUST for trophies. If you think like that you can just spend your money on all the "jumping" games in the psn store right now. They are very cheap and there are about 100 of them. You would probably be able to get 100 platinum trophies in less than 24 hours. At least they are different. 

[Ragowit]

6 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Hi!

 

Apologies if I'm misinterpreting the site info, but I had quick look at my own profile on the site, and can see multiple examples where a game I have is flagged as "obsolete", despite my not having the newer version of the game. These are all accompanied by the fairly cut-and-dried statement: "No trophies will be accounted for on any leaderboard" 

 

Hello again! You're correct that those trophies for those games don't contribute to your leaderboard ranking.

• Spider-Man/FF7R have an updated list on newer platform, which new players should play instead of buying the old version.
• Walking Dead have a collection, which new players should play instead of buying all stand-alone games.
• MotoGP have a "main" game list, which new players should play instead of buying a stripped down version.
• Zen Pinball/Bejeweled are delisted, which new players can't play since they don't exist anymore and thus can't compete with others on the leaderboards.

IF you were a new player, starting today, wouldn't the above feel better for you (as a fresh new player)? Meaning that new players can compete with "older" players.

 

But I know what you're saying. It "hurts" to see that yourself have trophies that isn't worth anything anymore. I myself have lots of trophies like your examples. But with PSN100 you have to stop thinking about "you", and start thinking about "others". That's the idea anyway.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

if I understand this correctly, I totally disagree with it. why should an older game automatically become obsolete just because a newer version exists, even if u never played the newer version?

 

a stack should only count... if u actually stacked 2 or more of the same game... and in that case.. only the version u happened to play first

 

It only becomes obsolete if there's a different in the trophy list! For the sake of leaderboard, you can't have two versions of the same game. How should the leaderboard calculate the points? You have Uncharted PS3 with 1350 points and another players have Uncharted PS4 with 1515 points? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. PSN100 chooses the newer one. Sucks if you have already played the old one, I know! But this is already how it is on all other leaderboards out there. And read above about having to think about others instead of yourself when browsing PSN100.

 

 

 

6 hours ago, diskdocx said:

I appreciate how you've tried to create a unique leaderboard, and in particular the merging of multiple regional stacks makes significant sense.

 

The way you approach the obsolete lists is, in my opinion, non-sensical. In fact, it FORCES you to stack, not the opposite.

 

Having a new, different/updated list should prompt the game to be treated as a separate entity, not a stack. Since you can't merge the lists, by making the original obsolete, you are arbitrarily punishing people who don't stack.

 

Of these 7 games, the only game you accept for leaderboard stats is Golden Abyss. The 3 PS3 games have all been made obsolete due to the newer (easier) PS4 Remasters, UC4 and LL have been made obsolete by the PS5 combined Collection, and Fight for Fortune is obsolete because it's been delisted (what arbitrary rationale is there for that?).

 

I get you are trying something different, but unless I completely misunderstand, I would have to replay/stack the Remasters and Collection because you have voided the original games I already completed? Well, at least until the Re-remasters come out and I'll have to do them again?

 

Thank you, and I hear you. I have Uncharted och Fight for Fortune (ugh...) as well, sucks that it's delisted and thus no longer counts on PSN100. As I typed earlier in this post about delisted, "new players can't play since they don't exist anymore and thus can't compete with others on the leaderboards". I know it's hard, and nothing other sites do, but when browsing PSN100 you have to stop thinking "Argh! My hard earned trophies aren't worth anything anymore!" and start thinking "This is good for future generation of new players. This mean they can (theoretically) compete for first place, which is a good thing."

Just think what will happen if Sony actually bans all those shovelware and remove it from the store. It would cement the leaderboard and there's really no point in looking on it. PSN100 would simply mark them as delisted and leaderboard is still competing.

 

 

 

Anyway, thank you all for your input and the language used. It's actually a discussion. Kudos!
We are however going OT from the OP...

[DaivRules]

3 minutes ago, Ragowit said:

We are however going OT from the OP...

 

I don't think this is going off topic. It was asked how a leaderboard would look without auto-pop and stacking. This is an example, hence it's on topic. This is also demonstrative of how fractured the interpretations are of people who propose or consider the question. There are still going to be people who want their interpretation of the question. 

I also think it would be cool to see all the different variations as options so there could be around a dozen, maybe up to 20, of all the different leaderboards people are proposing so everyone can have see the leaderboard they'd like to see. And then people can propose even more restriction to those and spin off even more leaderboards. It would be really cool to see that.

 

Maybe Sly should just create a paid trophy data api and people can just build all these leaderboards they propose/demand.
 

[DrBloodmoney]

4 minutes ago, Ragowit said:

It "hurts" to see that yourself have trophies that isn't worth anything anymore. I myself have lots of trophies like your examples. But with PSN100 you have to stop thinking about "you", and start thinking about "others". That's the idea anyway.

I think you may be confusing “it hurts” with “it renders the entire concept nonsensical” 

 

Having said that - I do like the idea of a leaderboard where  “you have to stop thinking about "you", and start thinking about "others"”…

…it’s certainly an unusual take on the concept of a competitive ranking table ?
 

You should take the premise to its logical conclusion, and just do a LB where the trophies you unlock just go directly to other people’s point count instead of your own - I imagine it would be really popular! ?

[MonaSaxPayne]

58 minutes ago, Ragowit said:

It only becomes obsolete if there's a different in the trophy list! For the sake of leaderboard, you can't have two versions of the same game. How should the leaderboard calculate the points? You have Uncharted PS3 with 1350 points and another players have Uncharted PS4 with 1515 points? You can't. You have to choose one or the other. PSN100 chooses the newer one. Sucks if you have already played the old one, I know! But this is already how it is on all other leaderboards out there. And read above about having to think about others instead of yourself when browsing PSN100.

 

u should take this even further and stop tracking trophies from discontinued consoles altogether... since "new" players won't be able to buy a PS3/Vita/PS4 

 

not sure I see the value in a leaderboard where MY OWN PERSONAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS cease to exist just because of what ✌️ other people play ✌️

 

[Meikoro]

3 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

I don't think this is going off topic. It was asked how a leaderboard would look without auto-pop and stacking. This is an example, hence it's on topic. This is also demonstrative of how fractured the interpretations are of people who propose or consider the question. There are still going to be people who want their interpretation of the question. 

I also think it would be cool to see all the different variations as options so there could be around a dozen, maybe up to 20, of all the different leaderboards people are proposing so everyone can have see the leaderboard they'd like to see. And then people can propose even more restriction to those and spin off even more leaderboards. It would be really cool to see that.

 

Maybe Sly should just create a paid trophy data api and people can just build all these leaderboards they propose/demand.
 

 

a few examples would be:

 

Regristed Member can create 1 unique Custom Leaderboard and its linked direct in their Profiles / Premium can up to 5 different Custom Leaderbaords.

 

The Other one is a Classic Sub Forum here for Custom Leaderboard like on certain Website you all sure know.

 

Im realy enjoying different Leaderbaords for different Situations. I notice the purpose on the PSN100 and its cool to Exist. The Owner should just clarify why these Games are obsolete on the Main Page like he mentioned here.

[DaivRules]

1 minute ago, Meikoro said:

Regristed Member can create 1 unique Custom Leaderboard and its linked direct in their Profiles / Premium can up to 5 different Custom Leaderbaords.

Knowing firsthand how much data can get called while calling apis and how much processing will be required to make leaderboard with the amount of data PSNP has, I don’t agree. I’m thinking Registered and Premium are separate and get No api access and people would need to pay a flat fee for access (maybe $10/mo) and then pay for the data they consume in tiers of probably $5-$20/month more. 

 

 

[Meikoro]

2 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

Knowing firsthand how much data can get called while calling apis and how much processing will be required to make leaderboard with the amount of data PSNP has, I don’t agree. I’m thinking Registered and Premium are separate and get No api access and people would need to pay a flat fee for access (maybe $10/mo) and then pay for the data they consume in tiers of probably $5-$20/month more. 

 

 

 

You mean the Traffic and Data Costs for Server right? I mean there are sure some people who would pay this, but trying to get a few more custom leaderboards here is a good idea. No need to get access to the Members. Just give more Options either on the main page and / or on the Forums.

 

I see Proeject Platinums thats already some sort of Mini Custom leaderboards here and great. At least on the Forum it would be no problem to manage "normal" Custom Leaderboards as simple Threads.

[Starlighthed211]

3 hours ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

u should take this even further and stop tracking trophies from discontinued consoles altogether... since "new" players won't be able to buy a PS3/Vita/PS4 

 

not sure I see the value in a leaderboard where MY OWN PERSONAL ACCOMPLISHMENTS cease to exist just because of what  other people play 

 

Well…you can still play PS4 games on your PS5 and play some PS3 games on PS Plus Premium…

 

Other than that I agree. I do not want to re-play dead games like Ice Age: Scrat’s Adventures because they have a PS5 version out (and it has no autopop) for example.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Starlighthed211

[sweeping-lamp3]

6 hours ago, Ragowit said:

 

Hello again!

 

What about "new" players that can't afford new versions of games, but only afford old cheap used physical copies of games?

 

Like being able to find an old used copy of Walking Dead season 1 for PS3 instead of buying the more expensive brand new version PS4/PS5?

or like an old cheap used copy of Dragon Quest 9 instead of the new Dragon Quest 9 S?

Is it just the price to pay to be able to merge stacks when a game has differences in its trophy list across platforms/versions?

 

Also, thank you for creating the site.

 

I understand sometimes a game stack is not a straight duplicate across versions/platforms and a decision has to be made on which trophy list counts/does not count when it comes to merging the stack.  I'm guessing you decided on the version which is most "obtainable".

 

Based on your merge prioritization, I'm guessing you probably encountered a lot of scenarios when merging a stack with trophy list differences and had to make a decision.  I commend you on your experience and decision making.

 

 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by sweeping-lamp3

[MrShovelware]

It would look better.

 

auto popping shouldn’t be a thing nor should it be respected. If you’re not physically playing the game you have no business getting a platinum