Devs state they should have made an easy mode and called that Normal Mode

[CharlesB753]

Hi guys, recently finished the hard difficulty on Hotline Miami 2 and it was painstakingly hard!

Really surprised that the trophy percentages sit where they do, because I found Hard mode to be brutal.

 

Anyways, I've been watching recaps and reviews of the series as a whole, and stumbled upon an interview with the Creators, Jonatan Söderström and Dennis Wedin

 

Hotline Miami Creators Break Down its Design & Legacy

TLDW;

- Devs state they should have made an "easy mode", and made the easy version normal, and the existing normal version "Hard".

- Didn't want to restart the difficulty from the first one, so it builds off the difficulty of the peak of the first game instead of starting from scratch

- They wish they had listened more closely to publisher feedback about how difficult it was - one of the Devs didn't play test hard mode at all, Edit: while the other did test it, it was unclear how much testing he did.

- After about making half of the game, their video game engine ran out of memory. So when they play tested the game, it ran at half speed. What you experience in the game is full speed, since they [presumably] didn't want to go back and change it.

 

Personally, I like the first one better mostly because of the music, and I pushed through Hard mode because of how common the trophy is (7% of people finish Hard mode!). I'm glad I did, and feel accomplished at beating the hard mode, so I don't share their same wishes about an easy mode / normal being hard. 

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

 

Edited March 20 by CharlesB753

[Rebourne07]

Wow, very interesting. Hotline Miami 2 is my white whale...it's insane that it's not rated 10/10 anywhere in any guides because it just seems insanely difficult. Makes so much sense that the devs didn't even test it on Hard.

[DrBloodmoney]

Ive done HM2, and I pretty much agree with the dev.

 

It's not like it's impossible - it's plenty doable... but its difficulty is pitched at a point that pretty much stops the game having a "fun" portion where you can just mess about and play.

 

The first one allowed you to have a lot of fun with the game mucking about and being sloppy, but still had the challenging elements at the top end for when that's what you want - but the sequel is basically all at that top level, which means you never really get a portion of the game to just have fun with.

 

Makes for a more frustrating experience, which is a bit of a shame - its' still decent, but it's nowhere near as good as the first one.

Edited March 20 by DrBloodmoney

[CharlesB753]

5 minutes ago, Rebourne07 said:

Wow, very interesting. Hotline Miami 2 is my white whale...it's insane that it's not rated 10/10 anywhere in any guides because it just seems insanely difficult. Makes so much sense that the devs didn't even test it on Hard.

One of the devs didn't test it on Hard, the other did. It's unclear how much testing they did, but they both agreed that they should have removed some windows and soldiers.

 

I had a huge mental blocker with this game, and it took me way longer to get around to it than it should have... I wanted this to be my 75th platinum... now it's going to be 125 LOL

[Howlers23]

It's definitely more challenging that Hotline Miami 1 but I didn't personally have too many issues with the 2nd on Hard apart from one mission in the prison. I believe the devs made the 2nd harder because people complained about the first being too easy at times.

 

Either way, both great games for sure!

[VigilantCrow]

My thoughts are always the same regardless of the game we talk about.

 

Instead of making games easier, the people playing should simply be forced to practice and get better. Nothing more annoying than whining, when people aren't putting in hundreds of hours to master a game's mechanics, AI and patterns. Dumbs down the hobby to pander to lazy people.

[CharlesB753]

4 minutes ago, Howlers23 said:

It's definitely more challenging that Hotline Miami 1 but I didn't personally have too many issues with the 2nd on Hard apart from one mission in the prison. I believe the devs made the 2nd harder because people complained about the first being too easy at times.

 

Either way, both great games for sure!

They talk about it a bit in the video, which is a great watch. I don't think their goal wasn't to make it harder, but rather, focus more on guns. The first one is very close quarters, heavy melee focused. In focusing on guns, this naturally made the puzzles much harder to solve and requires you to learn the level rather than just rely on twitch reflexes to kill everyone. There were definitely sections in Hard mode that certainly felt pretty BS! The docks and some of the soldier levels gave me a lot of trouble, but nothing I couldn't overcome in 1-2 hours

[Squirlruler]

While hard mode had some challenges it def is not a 10/10 for the plat. I beat both these games on the vita. Playing Mirror's Edge right now and that's an 8/10 and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more difficult.

 

I made both these games milestones (40th and 50th plat) and am pretty excited they released a PS5 list for each for two more milestones

 

As for the OP, I'm glad they didn't add an easy mode. These games are truly gems and should be experienced as they are. It's ok if games are difficult.

Edited March 20 by Squirlruler

[BlazikieronUS]

I don’t think it’s so hard that it needs to be easier or have another difficulty. It’s not meant as much of a causal easy game anyway.

 

[harsly]

I just finished hard mode and really don't get why everyone thinks it's so hard. A+ on normal was much harder and even that was moderate. Although I have played HM1 way back, and I remember having a lot of trouble with it, so much that I left the A+ runs aside for quite some time. 

[DrBloodmoney]

It’s pretty funny that in this case, the developers themselves are saying they think they pitched the difficulty of thier game too high…

…and people still be like “Git Gud CasUalz, deez games is s’posed 2 be hard!!1!” 😆

 

M’dudes, I’m relatively sure the developers know what thier game was “supposed to be”, more than any of us do 😂

[TurtlePM]

I love the first Hotline Miami. It was one of the main reasons I start looking for indie games and recommending them to people.

I pre-ordered the second game with my best friend and it was kinda disappointing because of how long and Unfair the game can be. I particularly remember a jungle and a boat level where I spent hours figuring out how the hell I was supposed to complete those levels without getting shot every step I took. Never touched the game after completing it, even the story made even less sense, unless you watch a full video explaining all chronological events.

 

First game: less characters + Masks = fun

Second game: more characters + variety of abilities = frustrating

 

Keep postpone the S Ranks and Hard Mode for another year...

[MoreFuego]

Well that explains why Hard Mode was so tough 😭 didn’t even know the backstory of this lol

 

Nonetheless, both HM games are excellent

Edited March 20 by MoreFuego

[VigilantCrow]

22 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

It’s pretty funny that in this case, the developers themselves are saying they think they pitched the difficulty of thier game too high…

…and people still be like “Git Gud CasUalz, deez games is s’posed 2 be hard!!1!” 😆

 

M’dudes, I’m relatively sure the developers know what thier game was “supposed to be”, more than any of us do 😂

We sure? I mean the devs themselves already admitted they don't play test properly. Makes it difficult to agree that they know what they actually want their games to be.

[dfyd]

Ah that is interesting. I have platinumed both and love the vibe and aesthetic of both, however, 1 is superior. I felt 2 was shite and it went backwards in regards to difficulty. Rather than building on 1 and improving, or just maintaining what they achieved and carrying on the story, they clearly tried to 'up the the challenge' which they did not need to do - nor did they have the capacity to do. Instead, they resorted to cheap tricks and placing enemies off-screen. It required constant replays of the level just to memorise where an enemy would be offscreen so you can kill it offscreen, before it kills you by shooting you from offscreen lmao. Safe to say I thought this 'improvement' was awful and a true step backwards. 'Fixed' something that wasn't broken and legitimately made 2 a shitter game. 

 

With that mind the 'shitter' game is still brilliant and very much worth playing! 

[MAUSZX]

I still have not played Hard mode because of the A+ trophy lol.

[JohnCenaSong-]

57 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

It’s pretty funny that in this case, the developers themselves are saying they think they pitched the difficulty of thier game too high…

…and people still be like “Git Gud CasUalz, deez games is s’posed 2 be hard!!1!” 😆

I always find people like that especially cringe because they often confuse some unbalanced game design as being 'difficulty'. I must admit, whilst I didn't find this game especially hard at any point I did notice it had some clearly poorly implemented sections.

 

Sometimes it can be true that people blame the game when really them, the player, is at fault in order to protect their ego when they lose at games. However, at the same time games aren't always perfect... even some of the best have that one part that feels like ass and throws off the games balance. There shouldn't be as much resistance to acknowledging such issues, that's one of the ways we learn to get better at implementing more balanced difficulty in our games and opens the door to in fact make games HARDER by understanding how to push those boundaries in a fair manner. We've all seen kids with a level editor and how badly designed those are... but, they're often not all that hard compared to, for example, some of those crazy Mario Maker levels people have made. Fair and well made game design isn't about making something 'too easy' and 'for casuals' it's about knowing how to use difficulty effectively so that competence and skill overcomes the hurdles put in front of you rather than just bruteforcing.

 

I see it a lot with the Souls games. They're (for the most part) pretty well designed experiences but there are most certainly specific areas, encounters and bosses which are cheap or poorly implemented for blind playthroughs and whenever anyone dare points that out they get those same predictable comments (which I find especially amusing because the Soulsborne...ekiro Ring  games ain't even that hard... I mean, Bloodborne is literally one of the most earned platinums on this site for example).

[CharlesB753]

To clarify, I enjoyed the difficulty the game offered. Every time I logged on, I made progress, whether it be towards A+ or hard mode. There was never a session where I didn't progress, courtesy of the checkpoint system.

 

That said, their comments about the difficulty stems from the fact that they didn't play test the full experience properly (engine running out of memory so half speed, only one dev tested hard mode, etc). They both agree they should have removed some windows and some soldiers. It's doable, but no matter how you felt, there are some sections in the game that are just plain BS.

 

You have to run the solution to the puzzle with the slightest of variations until it works. Some sections of the game, despite how well you know the level, you cannot solve perfectly because the AI just outplays you. That is not difficulty for the sake of being hard to master, that's just cheap tactics. Luckily, there were only a couple of sections in the game that were this way.

 

I encourage those who hold the high & mighty opinion of "get good scrub" to watch the video for themselves lol

 

And to those who are struggling with the A+, I recommend using this YouTube tutorial:

 

I would watch the episode in full, then go back to the first scene and play it scene by scene. Watch the video, then replicate the path mirroring the combos to the best of my ability. Some A+ levels would take 45 minutes, some 10 minutes, etc. Can be frustrating, but the solutions to high combo are decently robust and just take a bit of practice and it's more reliable than hard mode. Good luck, @MAUSZX & @TurtlePM and anyone else going for it!

[MAUSZX]

17 hours ago, CharlesB753 said:

I would watch the episode in full, then go back to the first scene and play it scene by scene. Watch the video, then replicate the path mirroring the combos to the best of my ability. Some A+ levels would take 45 minutes, some 10 minutes, etc. Can be frustrating, but the solutions to high combo are decently robust and just take a bit of practice and it's more reliable than hard mode. Good luck, @MAUSZX & @TurtlePM and anyone else going for it!

2024 is the year of try again for me it seems I will give this one a try again, I do remember having some A+ already, so it might not be as hard if I spot the ones that I gave up on.

TMNT Out Of the Shadows and Hotline Miami 2 are on my list to try again.

Edited March 21 by MAUSZX

[OkayZK-]

Definitely feels like some of the later Hard Mode levels were designed just to agitate, the later Richter and The Son levels are absurd and sometimes cheap (Demolition first floor) more often than not.

 

If you were required to A+ the hard mode levels this would be a very grating plat, but since you can take your time on most levels that makes it a tiny bit easier. 

[Crazy]

After getting the platinum for this and looking back on hard mode, it wasn't thaaaat bad. Definitely would not have minded some less windows though. 😂 Super interesting that they thought it's too hard. Personally think hard mode was a good spike that really tested you against the game's AI. Do wonder how many hours I would've saved if they tested and adjusted properly though lol.