Why Some People Are Upset Over Who's Judging the Game Awards

[Redgrave]

I don't see why it should matter who's judging so long as they are competent and know what they are talking about. But I think it's been well established that the Spike VGA's has been a joke already, so at this point does it really matter?

[Bucknerd]

Well, I can tell you that a great many women in math and science have benefited from artificially changing the balance of practitioners.

I'm an old-school liberal, of course, which means that I believe that it is the duty of those power to help those who can't help themselves. A self-perpetuating cycle of covert sexism should be attacked at its root. In the case of STEM, that means ensuring that women get help in achieving power in the disciplines.

Incidentally, in other fields (such as teaching at the high school level or below), it's the other way around. Efforts should be made to attract more men to the field, rather than treating it as a graveyard for women who can't decide on a major.

 While I don't wholly disagree with the statement here I think there is a difference between involving more women in STEM (or really most academic fields) versus involving more women into gaming.

I can see the correlation in that women might be discouraged from gaming for similar reasons they are discouraged for engaging in STEM. It's unfeminine, against the grain traditionally, and seemingly unpopular. However, I think a girl with a healthy esteem could overcome this stigma simply with early inclusive exposure rather than specialized exposure. Specialized exposure is the reason we have a plethora of pet simulation games with kittens wearing tiaras. Since those games tend to be mediocre at best it's no wonder a little girl might move on. If she's handed Mario at 5, even when coupled with the specialized girl games, the result could be different. As a side note the narrative of geek culture is also more popular than ever and I'm interested to see the effects as the kiddies of today mature.

 

As for my opinion. I don't really care either way. Game awards are just here so AAA games that are overhyped can get even more attention.

They could put anyone as a judge, and the result would still be same.

I don't see why it should matter who's judging so long as they are competent and know what they are talking about. But I think it's been well established that the Spike VGA's has been a joke already, so at this point does it really matter?

 

The VGA's or any award show isn't the main point of this discussion and I agree that they are subjective - especially since I'm a fan of Japanese games and rarely play the AAA titles that get the accolades.

 

The larger point is women in gaming/the gaming industry/gaming journalism.

For a personal example which builds off the one you gave: you'd have to pay me a lot more than you'd probably have to pay most women to educate kids. I don't particularly like kids. At all. Women, in my experience, tend to quite like kids. I can think of one or two that I've met who don't, but most that I have met do. 

 

If you count random internet forum acquaintances you now know another woman that prescribes to the way you feel about children. Just. No.

 

 

What "imbalance in life" would you like to touch on? 

 

 

I believe StarCrunch is referencing the fact that there are social issues (at least with the US) that women have to work harder to over come. The first thing that comes to my mind is the fact that women make less money than some men in the exact same position in some fields or that women, on the whole, end up performing more house work or child care than men. I think the general point that's being made is that while there are natural differences in women and men and what they might gravitate to a woman has to overcome more to reach most ends - even some that she's traditionally expected to meet.

 

However, I can only speak for myself as a woman but I would find it EXTREMELY patronizing to be included on something game related simply because of my specialized gender instead of my individual accomplishments, voice, or talent. I'd take even greater offense to that than not being included at all. But that's just how I'd personally feel.

I refer back to my point about inclusive versus specialized exposure. Unfortunately the former can only happen over time.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Bucknerd

[Red-River13]

If they want more women in gaming then women should try harder.

[Kubanga]

I don't care if it's a male or a female judging as long as they don't suck at their job.

[Dr_Mayus]

There isn't anyone judging the real game awards http://psnprofiles.com/forums/topic/33030-psnps-year-end-awards-2015/All are free to enter and no judgement will be passed

[BlueFireReaper]

They wanted the best judges, which happens to be all men. Honestly, no problem with that. When video games came back into the market, they got placed with the toys instead of electronics due to the video game crash. Unfortunately, since there was a divide in the toys aisles between boys and girls, a decision was made to market them for boys, and that stereotype has stuck for ages. We're starting to see a break in that nowadays with more women becoming active in the gaming community. However, it's going to take more time (in this case, years) for the top critics to become more diverse.

 

While there have been studies that prove that more diverse groups accomplish more, people will want a group with a better average result over a diverse group with a less than average result. SJWs need to shut up and deal with the facts. You all need to give things some time before you start bitching.

[starcrunch061]

While I don't wholly disagree with the statement here I think there is a difference between involving more women in STEM (or really most academic fields) versus involving more women into gaming.

I believe StarCrunch is referencing the fact that there are social issues (at least with the US) that women have to work harder to over come. The first thing that comes to my mind is the fact that women make less money than some men in the exact same position in some fields or that women, on the whole, end up performing more house work or child care than men. I think the general point that's being made is that while there are natural differences in women and men and what they might gravitate to a woman has to overcome more to reach most ends - even some that she's traditionally expected to meet.

WHAT?!? Gaming and STEM inequality aren't the same? :-D

I only mentioned STEM because it had already come up.

Also, your assumption is correct. While I am not really behind the wage issue (studies show that in many fields, if one considers benefits as well as salary in regards to compensation, the wage gap shrinks incredibly), but as the husband of a female academic in mathematics, I am all over STEM stuff. And no - gaming is not the same, although the sexism prevalent in gaming still embarrasses me (particularly when I bring up my love of gaming to my social circles).

[Z1MZUM]

If they want more women in gaming then women should try harder.

 

Or stop selling nothing but Boy Games on the XB1

[Bucknerd]

There isn't anyone judging the real game awards http://psnprofiles.com/forums/topic/33030-psnps-year-end-awards-2015/All are free to enter and no judgement will be passed

 

But no, seriously, go look at the what the good Doc has cooked up on this thread. I enjoy reading it every year and I sincerely wish I earned enough plats to participate. Thanks for all the time you put into this, Mayus.

 

 

They wanted the best judges, which happens to be all men. Honestly, no problem with that. When video games came back into the market, they got placed with the toys instead of electronics due to the video game crash. Unfortunately, since there was a divide in the toys aisles between boys and girls, a decision was made to market them for boys, and that stereotype has stuck for ages. We're starting to see a break in that nowadays with more women becoming active in the gaming community. However, it's going to take more time (in this case, years) for the top critics to become more diverse.

 

While there have been studies that prove that more diverse groups accomplish more, people will want a group with a better average result over a diverse group with a less than average result. SJWs need to shut up and deal with the facts. You all need to give things some time before you start bitching.

 

I don't know what to say to this really other than ask if you've read anything most of us have been saying? I have stated exactly what you pointed out in your first paragraph and wholly agree with you. It's an excellent point - enough that saying it again warrants saying my point again: the Kotaku article does not prove that any sexism took place because as it is currently, and because of the way games are marketed, most of the eligible critics ARE men and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Hopefully things will change in the future and I think they will. Having this discussion right here is proof enough that it is. However, as it is now I could even say the panel could use some more men, by means of Greg Miller and Colin Moriarty.

 

As for your second paragraph... I have to say, since I am not big enough a person to ignore it, that someone who has platted Monster Monpiece, Senran Kagura: Shinovi Versus, and Akiba's Trip AND someone who is currently outranking you in the Baka Hentai Project Platinum Thread might not be the person you want to call a bitching social justice warrior. Your point comes from the right place but you gather more flies with honey, so to speak. 

 

 

WHAT?!? Gaming and STEM inequality aren't the same? :-D

I only mentioned STEM because it had already come up.

Also, your assumption is correct. While I am not really behind the wage issue (studies show that in many fields, if one considers benefits as well as salary in regards to compensation, the wage gap shrinks incredibly), but as the husband of a female academic in mathematics, I am all over STEM stuff. And no - gaming is not the same, although the sexism prevalent in gaming still embarrasses me (particularly when I bring up my love of gaming to my social circles).

 

:D *salutes you wearing Captain Obvious hat* I misinterpreted what you said a little earlier but I am glad we are on the same page. I was simply wanting to convey that simply letting women on the panel wouldn't work in the gaming world. But that is quite obvious. 

It's been great reading what you and Stricken have been saying. 

 

Or stop selling nothing but Boy Games on the XB1

Just a few JRPG's, Mircosoft. That's all I ask.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Bucknerd

[Satoshi Ookami]

Just a few JRPG's, Mircosoft. That's all I ask.

And MS fanboys would be like "WTF IS THIS WEEB SHITE?! GO TO SONY!".

And it would be ported to PS4

[Z1MZUM]

And MS fanboys would be like "WTF IS THIS WEEB SHITE?! GO TO SONY!".

And it would be ported to PS4

 

Early 360 has a few Jrpg's, it's reasonable to want these on the xb1 as well. There was vesperia in Enlgish, Blue Dragon a few more that I can't remember. Seriously, the xb1 is a guys machine with "easy to play" games, very sad.

[Satoshi Ookami]

Early 360 has a few Jrpg's, it's reasonable to want these on the xb1 as well. 

I know about Vesperia, Eternal Sonata, etc... but since they were in early stages, we can presume they weren't popular enough for M$ to have a stable load of JRPGs.

[rusty1027]

Modern feminists are really going to screw up gender politics in the future should real problems actually arise. Take a look at how they're screwing with male-female communication:

 

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/12/04/the-sexodus-part-1-the-men-giving-up-on-women-and-checking-out-of-society/

 

Personally I think this could really backfire on feminists if their reign of terror leads to future leaders being raised with the fear feminists distilled upon them. Who'd want to legislate in favor of their oppressors?

[MMDE]

I think at this point, nobody takes that award show seriously, or at least they shouldn't, and that's really too bad.

 

I've only seen some gameplay of it (like 20 minutes) like months ago, so I probably shouldn't judge too much, but Her Story looked awfully boring...

Early 360 has a few Jrpg's, it's reasonable to want these on the xb1 as well. There was vesperia in Enlgish, Blue Dragon a few more that I can't remember.

 

MS supported Mistwalker with some money, but the games sold like shit on X360, so they gave up on that, and did some Wii games and now mobile. I think they are currently working on porting their mobile game to PS4 or something. That's how that went.

 

Kinda annoyed at the Blue Dragon anime series. They gave out an incomplete "first season" box set, and simply didn't follow up on it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blue-Dragon-DVD-Rita-Majkut/dp/B002T5QM7O/

Yeah, it says "series 1", and it contains the three first "collections"... but that shit is like 26 episodes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Blue_Dragon_episodes

First season is 51 episodes..... so saying it's the first season is a lie. It just cuts off in the middle of the story line...

There were of course a second season with another 51 episodes. I should just download that or something.

[RisingSenpai616]

I don't know too much about the VGAs (aside from that one year when they had that ridiculous Best Game Powered By Mountain Dew category) and, frankly, I tend to veer as far away from Kotaku as I can as they're generally not far from sensationalist tabloid journalism in my experience.

 

But, as a woman who likes teh vidya gaems (I know. #specialsnowflakeamirite), I do find it a bit... odd(?) that all the judges happened to be men. While there's no need to go running to her majesty Anita Sarkeesian (really, there are much more suitable woman involved with video games than her) there are plenty of qualified women who could have sat the panel and offered a valuable perspective. (Leigh Alexander for example.) Because, while I don't believe in paying arbitrary lip service, it just feels like a mighty big coinky-dink that all the people they felt were qualified just happened to be men. I don't think that makes me a SJW or anything. It's just that I know there are plenty of women who are passionate about video games. And it's the friggin' VGAs. We're not talking Roger Ebert level of qualifications here.

 

I reckon, as other people mentioned, it never even crossed the minds of the producers. I doubt it was any kind of intentional exclusion or anything silly like that but that's kind of what has me raising an eyebrow. Did everyone look at the plan and think, "Yep. Totally normal. That's what a panel of video game judges looks like." because that seems slightly more worrying to me. I mean, not one woman? At all?

 

Or maybe they got who they felt was most qualified with little to no margin of error. Maybe there were woman that they asked but they all turned them down. The heck do I know? I guess it just kind of jitters my critters a bit.

Edited December 10, 2015 by RisingSenpai616

[TheVader66]

Friends, lets have a civil discussion! On the internet!

 

I was afraid to start this thread and originally made this my status. However, I believe this is a good topic to talk about and both StrickenBiged and Yadilie have made good points in my status thread (which I shall summarize here so we can continue the conversation).

 

The topic in question is in regards to the "Why Some People Are Upset Over Who's Judging the Game Awards" article on Kotaku.

 

http://kotaku.com/why-people-are-upset-over-whos-judging-the-video-game-a-1745801957

 

My individual stance is that the article is important because it starts dialogue over the fact that the Game Awards "didn't think about" the fact that mostly all the judges were men. However, like StrickenBiged, I am of the opinion that the article did not properly prove why a 50/50 panel would be superior. I don't think that creating a 50/50 panel is the answer. As Yadilie pointed out most of the most well regarded and knowledgeable critics are men. It could be argued that the reason the Game Awards "didn't think about it" is because they went after the "best" critics and they just so happened to mostly be male. That observations starts a whole other issue of women in gaming journalism but we can go down that tangent if the thread decides to.

 

StrickenBiged and I also agreed that, despite her controversy, someone with as large a known bias as Anita Sarkeesian would be a poor judge and doesn't serve as a good example as a woman (or person) that should be allowed on the panel.

 

What are your thoughts, fellow gamers?

 

Right now the gaming industry is going through change. I do agree that game industry is sexist in certain ways, like the first thing people do when they find out there is a girl gamer in the area, they try to hit on her, call her a fake gamer or they just begin being mean to the girl. I believe the best way to change the industry is rather than using force or censorship, is to use logic and have pacifist way of doing things but without backing down. This worked very well for Martin Luther King Jr. since his non-violence activism made a respectable man even to his enemies and it also gained him powerfull allies: Cesar Chaves (influential in the Latino community) John F Kennedy (President of the US, influential in the White community) now compare that with Malcolm X who was for Black supremacy (until the last years of his life) and was against Martin Luther King Jr's way of activism (saying that MLK was a chump and that his movement was to satisfy the white establishment), because of this many historians agree that Malcom made the situation worse cause it gave the KKK more power as white people feared Malcolm and his followers. Luckly Martin Luther King Jr gained more influence and power than Malcom because of MLK's nonviolence activism and reaching out to all races and gender, this would lead to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Voting Rights Act of 1965 being passed.

 

Sorry for the History lesson but the reason why I said it is because right now the name SJW is covered in mud because people like Anita Sarkeesian who actually tried to convince the United Nations to censor certain things on the Internet and wild accusations like that Witcher 3 is sexist because sometimes bad guys call Ciri a "bitch" or a "whore". Also because of movements that led to GTA V being banned in Australian stores, Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 not comming to the west. The only way to reverse this negative opinion is to have person who is just like Martin Luther King Jr, someone like Malala Yousafzai who is a true feminist, someone that can unite all groups instead of antagonize one another. I hope that the game industry will welcome women with open arms, just like how girls accepted me when I was little because at that time, I couldn't play sports because my legs were messed up so all the boys wouldn't want to play with me, I was abandoned by my own gender, but luckly some girls actually wanted to play with me and from then on I have always had respect for women and I believe they should be treated just like a man and the should also enjoy the same stuff.