What's your opinion on share play boosting?

[MonaSaxPayne]

15 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Well in the immediate it sort of devalues the metric for the trophies I guess.

 

how tho? I guess at its core this is just something I never personally understood

 

trophies, and whatever value they bring me, were never hinged on how other ppl earned them

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

11 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

how tho? I guess at its core this is just something I never personally understood

 

trophies, and whatever value they bring me, were never hinged on how other ppl earned them

Because there's a literal value attached to them. It's not like I doubt you understand this, just that you don't place as much of a value on it; but a trophy that's earned in a way I find to be illegitimate and decreases the rarity of the trophy kind of forces a person to be placed in the same position as someone who earned it legitimately. And believe me it's not about the leaderboard because that's beyond salvation, but if people didn't care about their trophy metrics then they'd take the 30 seconds to hide their profile on the website. Instead they showcase their trophies to others and thereby participate in the social metric that we basically all choose to participate in when we're on this site - especially people who post on the forums

Edited September 4, 2022 by Deadly_Ha_Ha

[CelestialRequiem]

1 hour ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

It's a weird place for this hobby to be in when people choose to personally value earning trophies on their own accounts that they did not get instead of accepting that they won't get the plat/100%

 

It's not like just playing the game and getting help, something you probably shouldn't do either, because trophy hunting and gaming aren't the same hobby anyway

I like how on this website, it is seen as elitist to expect the account holder to earn trophies themselves. 

 

Everything is elitist. The word means nothing anymore.

[DrBloodmoney]

17 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Because there's a literal value attached to them. It's not like I doubt you understand this, just that you don't place as much of a value on it; but a trophy that's earned in a way I find to be illegitimate and decreases the rarity of the trophy kind of forces a person to be placed in the same position as someone who earned it legitimately. And believe me it's not about the leaderboard because that's beyond salvation, but if people didn't care about their trophy metrics then they'd take the 30 seconds to hide their profile on the website. Instead they showcase their trophies to others and thereby participate in the social metric that we basically all choose to participate in when we're on this site - especially people who post on the forums

 

I don't necessarily disagree with all of this, but I do have a question, if I may...

 

Your opinion is that SharePlay is wrong - or at least, illegitimate practice - as it is artificially increasing one "social metric" as you put it, (that's a good term for the stats on the site BTW,) without that player putting in the corresponding effort that someone else did, correct?

 

That is a perfectly valid point of view, I think....  however - if that is the case - how do you square this concern with the fact that many players (yourself included, IIRC,) have, in a sense, "artificially" increased another of the site-tracked "social metrics" - Completion Percentage - by restarting with a fresh profile, or by using "alt" profiles, rather than simply sticking with the original one?

 

Would you not concede that there is, at least some, equivalence to the two practices?

 

In one case, the trophy count is being inflated by use of SharePlay, thus putting the player on an "artificially" gained trophy level with someone who earned said trophy legitimately...

 

...and in the other, the use of "alt" profiles, or "reset" profiles is putting that player on an "artificially" gained completion percentage level with someone who earned that completion percentage "legitimately"... by going back, and cleaning up a long or arduous backlog? 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[KenjiCBZ]

12 minutes ago, CelestialRequiem said:

I like how on this website, it is seen as elitist to expect the account holder to earn trophies themselves. 

 

Everything is elitist. The word means nothing anymore.

Yeah seriously. Imagine being called an elitist for literally doing the intended thing.

[Datboy1991]

For local co-op games where you can't find a second person, I don't see a problem with it. The trophy was designed for you to play with a second person, and you are playing with a second person. The Doom and Doom 2 co-op trophies are a great example of this. 

 

In other circumstances, it's legalized cheating. You didn't earn those trophies. Somebody else did, but your profile says you earned them. Other than it being harder to catch somebody in the act, how is it any different than hacking the trophies?

 

PSNProfiles doesn't have the access to regulate most kinds of cheating: all they can see is your timestamps, which isn't enough information to tell you anything nefarious happened outside of obvious cases. If somebody shareplayed a game for you, it would just look like normal timestamps to the website. Any accusations of foul play would be he-said, she-said. This is the real reason most of this behavior isn't against the rules: enforcement would be a nightmare. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, CelestialRequiem said:

I like how on this website, it is seen as elitist to expect the account holder to earn trophies themselves. 

 

Everything is elitist. The word means nothing anymore.

 

How dare you shame me for not earning that plat myself? A plat is a plat

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

39 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Would you not concede that there is, at least some, equivalence to the two practices?

I know you feel this way, I've seen it in your posts before, but I chose not to really say anything about it here because I do not find them to be comparable in outcome, no. 

 

On the one hand it's obviously true that by starting fresh a few years ago I gave myself ease of access to a 100% account, but so what? I think by 2018 I had impossible trophies on Oro anyway and that notwithstanding I had GAMES on that account I didn't want to see any more. There being a completion advantage to starting over again isn't cheap as I honestly think you see it, or any of the negative things that I know you feel about it because there's no getting around the doing on a fresh account. 

 

I've seen 100% accounts that clearly cherry pick but a person's individual completion % HAS no effect on the shared metrics on this website. Trophies DO though because people share the trophy rarities between them; they obtain trophies in tandem with other people on this website. I don't artificially gain placement with others by the completion % of my account and fwiw my account has flown in the face of my 100% a few times already. Hell, maybe Nuclear Throne will prove to be a completion killer, I don't care though because I'm up for the effort. When you share play you have conceded the effort in a way that still puts you alongside people who actually put the effort in. That is my fundamental issue with share play. My fresh account and my completion % has no like consequence. When I see people with 100% accounts that they've had since 2009 OBVIOUSLY I defer to their incredible effort and recognize the insignificance* of my own, but there's no consequence to them that my account exists as there is for share play vs. real trophy achievement.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Deadly_Ha_Ha

[DrBloodmoney]

13 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

I know you feel this way, I've seen it in your posts before, but I chose not to really say anything about it here because I do not find them to be comparable in outcome, no. 

 

On the one hand it's obviously true that by starting fresh a few years ago I gave myself ease of access to a 100% account, but so what? I think by 2018 I had impossible trophies on Oro anyway and that notwithstanding I had GAMES on that account I didn't want to see any more. There being a completion advantage to starting over again isn't cheap as I honestly think you see it, or any of the negative things that I know you feel about it because there's no getting around the doing on a fresh account. 

 

I've seen 100% accounts that clearly cherry pick but a person's individual completion % HAS no effect on the shared metrics on this website. Trophies DO though because people share the trophy rarities between them; they obtain trophies in tandem with other people on this website. I don't artificially gain placement with others by the completion % of my account and fwiw my account has flown in the face of my 100% a few times already. Hell, maybe Nuclear Throne will prove to be a completion killer, I don't care though because I'm up for the effort. When you share play you have conceded the effort in a way that still puts you alongside people who actually put the effort in. That is my fundamental issue with share play. My fresh account and my completion % has no like consequence. When I see people with 100% accounts that they've had since 2009 OBVIOUSLY I defer to their incredible effort and recognize the insignificance* of my own, but there's no consequence to them that my account exists as there is for share play vs. real trophy achievement.

 

I see what you're saying, though I would contend that the use of "Alt" profiles does affect the commonly-shared rarities of trophies too - probably far more than SharePlay does - in the sense that if enough people use a burner-account to try a game they would have played, then decide they aren't up to the challenge, and never add it to their real account, surely that artificially alters the rarity of the trophies in that game? Making it less rare than it, by rights, would be, if everyone had only one account?

 

Of course, that is assuming the "alt" isn't also tracked on the site, I suppose - not actually sure how common it is for folks to add their alt profiles on here as well as their main one ?

 

In fact, I would contend that "reset" accounts also do this in a sense - though in that case, I guess only if the player re-plays a game that was on the old account, and if both accounts are tracked on the site.

 

If they get a platinum again that they already had on the old account, then one could surely make the case that they are making that platinum more common than it should be, no?

Edited September 4, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[iriihutoR84]

The way I see it is that a trophy is a personal reward for an accomplishment within a game. If you didn't do it then you didn't deserve that reward personally, only the one who actually did the playing does.  I don't even understand why you would want a trophy for something you didn't do. Why should that trophy be on your profile? It shows that you did something that you in fact didn't. Is it a collector's item? Why do you want it?

 

 If something is too hard for you in a game then you skip that part of the game and move on to something you will have fun playing. You don't need to earn every single trophy and you do not deserve a medal for something that someone else did. 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by iriihutoR84

[DaivRules]

38 minutes ago, Datboy1991 said:

This is the real reason most of this behavior isn't against the rules: enforcement would be a nightmare. 

 

No, it isn’t against the rules because Sony implemented and allows trophies to be earned through Shareplay. Making rules against the exact features implemented by the creators would start an asinine downward slope on what should be against the rules next. 
 

Sony, who has shown they clearly don’t place anywhere near the same value on trophies as some members of this site do, probably figures people have been logging on on other people’s accounts and earning them their hard trophies since 2008 (and by controller passing since gaming started), they’ve just democratized the process to enable more people do it as well. 
 

 

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

5 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

 

 

If they get a platinum again that they already had on the old account, then one could surely make the case that they are making that platinum more common than it should be, no?

Yes, that is true, and I've double dipped already, but you have to consider the way it's all weighed. Every trophy earned counts more towards completion % than unearned trophies do because unless the game has a super high completion rate, the fewer the achievers the more impact each one has on the metrics. That's especially true for plats. For me to make a game rarer I would need dozens, hundreds of accounts to impact the rarity noticeably. But so many fewer achievers are needed to make it more common. This becomes less relevant the higher the owner count but I mean dude if it's not the principle of the thing it REALLY is the logistical reality. 

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Yes, that is true, and I've double dipped already, but you have to consider the way it's all weighed. Every trophy earned counts more towards completion % than unearned trophies do because unless the game has a super high completion rate, the fewer the achievers the more impact each one has on the metrics. That's especially true for plats. For me to make a game rarer I would need dozens, hundreds of accounts to impact the rarity noticeably. But so many fewer achievers are needed to make it more common. This becomes less relevant the higher the owner count but I mean dude if it's not the principle of the thing it REALLY is the logistical reality. 

 

That's true - the actual impact is lesser in one direction than the other I suppose - I guess it would be much more noticeable with very low-ownership games. 

 

In the end, I don't really disagree that the two are a different thing... but I do like the thought experiment. The fact is, the stats are all interconnected on this site, and my point was more that there are LOADS of things different folks do on this site that "artificially" alters those stats of trophies.

 

Hell, the mere existence of guides has all but completely destroyed all sense of reason when it comes to the rarities of trophies in my beloved Puzzle Games and Adventure Games... but I think it'd be a pretty tough hill to climb to convince anyone on here that using guides should be against the rules ?

Edited September 4, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[Deceptrox]

If it's to earn co-op trophies it's totally useful. If it's to have somebody else earn trophies for you then it makes your trophy hunting hobby pointless. 

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

@DrBloodmoney I like writing guides as a show of support for the games but I try to limit my use of guides where possible. I'm a bit of a simpleton and prefer the "Gamer do" approach so guides serve to help me not get stuck in figuring out needlessly obtuse trophy requirements. I appreciate a guide that helps you figure something out but isn't trying to hold your hand in DOING it since that's what a guide CAN'T do anyway

[skotafactor]

24 minutes ago, iriihutoR84 said:

The way I see it is that a trophy is a personal reward for an accomplishment within a game. If you didn't do it then you didn't deserve that reward personally, only the one who actually did the playing does.  I don't even understand why you would want a trophy for something you didn't do. Why should that trophy be on your profile? It shows that you did something that you in fact didn't. Is it a collector's item? Why do you want it?

 

 If something is too hard for you in a game then you skip that part of the game and move on to something you will have fun playing. You don't need to earn every single trophy and you do not deserve a medal for something that someone else did. 

 

 

That’s how I feel as well, and that sentiment extends to auto-popping for me. I auto-popped one game and it didn’t really sit well with me. I decided after that one, any stacks I do would be full replays rather than auto-pops. 
 

It’s a personal conviction for me though. I can’t change how anybody else plays, nor do I want to. If someone wants a badge or a trophy that someone else got for them, I don’t take personal offense. 
 

I’m also in the camp of “boosting at least takes some personal effort” and have boosted plenty of (mostly dying) MP games, but I can see how folks could equate the two. I played Tomb Raider back in 2013 and there were a number of trophies I couldn’t get because players avoided certain play styles that were riskier for them (namely zip lining). So I could see how some folks might see it as cheating for me to return to it with a boosting group years later. 

 

 

 

[DrBloodmoney]

8 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

@DrBloodmoney I like writing guides as a show of support for the games but I try to limit my use of guides where possible. I'm a bit of a simpleton and prefer the "Gamer do" approach so guides serve to help me not get stuck in figuring out needlessly obtuse trophy requirements. I appreciate a guide that helps you figure something out but isn't trying to hold your hand in DOING it since that's what a guide CAN'T do anyway

Oh yeah - crikey, I’m certainly not advocating for no guides - that would be lunacy ? - and hypocritical in the extreme, since I use them myself at times!

 

I just meant they do affect the rarities / difficulty ratings of some games a lot - there’s no getting around that - especially “cerebral” games like puzzle / adventure games etc. where the challenge comes from cerebral thinking, rather than dextral doing. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[dieselmanchild]

Despite the fact I’m a big elitist meany pants, I’ve surprisingly never really cared or given much thought to people using SharePlay to “cheat” trophies. I think this is largely because it doesn’t seem like a common practice at all. Occasionally I do see SharePlay sessions on the site where someone is begging for help to complete a difficult trophy for them, but these cries for help seem to go ignored for the most part, as in general most people aren’t going to want to take the time out of their day to complete a difficult trophy for a random stranger.

 

I also understand that everybody has different skill levels and strengths/weaknesses, and I empathize with the agony of having one trophy road blocking your way to that shiny platinum. But for me personally, there is a sense of pride and accomplishment that comes from overcoming these kinds of tasks and so getting someone else to do it for you would make it all ring hollow anyways.

 

For ex. I’m working on the ‘Got There’ trophy in THPS 1+2 right now. I don’t have much of a history with these games and I don’t consider myself a very skilled player at all. Believe me I absolutely understand the temptation to get one of the many Tony Hawk gods on my friend list to come rip the final combo lines for me in like 10 minutes flat, but that would just suck all the air out of the accomplishment and glory that is going to be mine when I manage to overcome that obstacle for myself.

 

I think nowadays we all get so caught up in numbers and watching what everyone else is doing and whatnot, that many of us forget from time to time that trophy hunting is supposed to be about the journey rather than the destination. I’ve been guilty of hypocrisy and cheesing trophies or cutting corners to achieve trophies myself many times, as I’m sure most people on this site have as well. But every time I’ve done this, it never sits well with me and just leaves me feeling empty about the final result. After all it’s supposed to be that persistence, perseverance, practice and watching your skills grow until you can do something you thought you couldn’t that makes this a rewarding and fulfilling hobby right? ?

[Deceptrox]

2 minutes ago, skotafactor said:

That’s how I feel as well, and that sentiment extends to auto-popping for me. I auto-popped one game and it didn’t really sit well with me. I decided after that one, any stacks I do would be full replays rather than auto-pops. 
 

It’s a personal conviction for me though. I can’t change how anybody else plays, nor do I want to. If someone wants a badge or a trophy that someone else got for them, I don’t take personal offense. 
 

I’m also in the camp of “boosting at least takes some personal effort” and have boosted plenty of (mostly dying) MP games, but I can see how folks could equate the two. I played Tomb Raider back in 2013 and there were a number of trophies I couldn’t get because players avoided certain play styles that were riskier for them (namely zip lining). So I could see how some folks might see it as cheating for me to return to it with a boosting group years later. 

 

I feel like you about auto popping, I rather earn all trophies from a game one more time, especially if I like it, instead of auto popping. I have to admit I have one auto popped platinum but there was no way to avoid that (except not starting the game) since it was a online only game and I decided to make this exception.

 

However I plan to earn my PS5 stack from Hitman 3 (whenever I get a PS5) from zero, this applies to any other game.

 

Regarding multiplayer trophies, I try to earn them without boosting if they are from a game that was recently released, nevertheless old games or games that have mp trophies with crazy requirements need to be boosted.

 

[MonaSaxPayne]

2 hours ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Because there's a literal value attached to them. It's not like I doubt you understand this, just that you don't place as much of a value on it; but a trophy that's earned in a way I find to be illegitimate and decreases the rarity of the trophy kind of forces a person to be placed in the same position as someone who earned it legitimately. And believe me it's not about the leaderboard because that's beyond salvation, but if people didn't care about their trophy metrics then they'd take the 30 seconds to hide their profile on the website. Instead they showcase their trophies to others and thereby participate in the social metric that we basically all choose to participate in when we're on this site - especially people who post on the forums

 

the only metric I particularly care about is completion (for which there's no leaderboard).. and even then its not about where I stand relative to others

 

now I understand that for a lot of people, there's fun to be had in being competitive/comparing your achievements (and subsequent ranking) to others

 

but if u genuinely care bout competitiveness, u have to compete within the "rules" of whatever arena u are competing in  

 

SharePlay (and another hotly debated side topic - auto pops) are all officially sanctioned by Sony, and as such, are a legitimate means of earning trophies, even if u may have a personal distaste for it

 

technically, team accounts and digital game sharing are against Sony's ToS, and are in fact an unfair advantage when it comes to leaderboards. but the reality is that there's no way to determine, from time stamps, whether someone earned a trophy as an individual, as part of a team, through boosting, SharePlay, or passing the controller to their big brother to be earned for them 

 

there really is no point claiming to be competitive while only choosing to recognize trophies earned a manner that meets your niche bubble approval

 

[Nebnit]

1 hour ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Hell, the mere existence of guides has all but completely destroyed all sense of reason when it comes to the rarities of trophies in my beloved Puzzle Games and Adventure Games... but I think it'd be a pretty tough hill to climb to convince anyone on here that using guides should be against the rules 

 

I, for one, use none whatsoever, and I'm pretty sure there are others who don't, so you should get your hopes up.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Nebnit

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

5 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

but if u genuinely care bout competitiveness, u have to compete within the "rules" of whatever arena u are competing in  

 

there really is no point claiming to be competitive while only choosing to recognize trophies earned a manner that meets your niche bubble approval

Do you mean me specifically? Who am I competing with and when did I say anything about competition? Please don't start putting words in my mouth, we really were doing well without that until now

[CelestialRequiem]

5 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Do you mean me specifically? Who am I competing with and when did I say anything about competition? Please don't start putting words in my mouth, we really were doing well without that until now

He's obviously got an axe to grind. 

[MonaSaxPayne]

16 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Do you mean me specifically? Who am I competing with and when did I say anything about competition? Please don't start putting words in my mouth, we really were doing well without that until now

 

it was a general comment (...but if the shoe fits?)

 

a lot of the gripes that ppl have (about the current leaderboard) all revolve around other people playing games/earning trophies in a manner that THEY don't agree with

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by MonaSaxPayne

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

1 minute ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

it was a general comment (...but if the shoe fits?)

 

a lot of the gripes that ppl have (about the current leaderboard) all revolve around other people playing games/earning trophies in a manner that THEY don't agree with

 

 

 

 

Well, the shoe doesn't fit - let's just clarify that right now. And anyway I already said that my points have zippo to do with the FUBAR leaderboard. The LB is the competition on this site but it's so dramatically removed from the spirit of trophy hunting (in my opinion) that there's no use even considering it here. 

[CelestialRequiem]

7 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

it was a general comment (...but if the shoe fits?)

 

a lot of the gripes that ppl have (about the current leaderboard) all revolve around other people playing games/earning trophies in a manner that THEY don't agree with

No one was talking about the leaderboard.