Earning Trophies on 3rd Party, Independently Revived PSN Game Servers

[grimydawg___]

I don't have a problem with it personally, but that's not up to me @Sergen

Edited March 15, 2018 by grimydawg

[Yuichiro-Akuhei]

getting a closed server backup would be amazing. there are still some games out there I would love to platinum.

The only problem I see, some trophies can be cheesed so easily with a private server, I don't know how a private server would work exactly. Can I make a private server if the game is still online? Can everybody join the server at any time? So yea, I would like to make a new fight night round 4 server lmao, or Killzone 2, 10 players on my server and I make 5 kills and be #1%. and if this would work on ps4 games, the elder scrolls online, I make a server and get that emperor trophy without a problem. If this would be possible, Its just a huge joke...  personally you had your time when the servers where still up, of course too bad, that's why I going for mp trophies only atm, my profile is maybe a mess but I'm happy with every game I boosted so far for the MP trophies? ?

[Sergen]

2 minutes ago, Yuichiro-Akuhei said:

getting a closed server backup would be amazing. there are still some games out there I would love to platinum.

The only problem I see, some trophies can be cheesed so easily with a private server, I don't know how a private server would work exactly. Can I make a private server if the game is still online? Can everybody join the server at any time? So yea, I would like to make a new fight night round 4 server lmao, or Killzone 2, 10 players on my server and I make 5 kills and be #1%. and if this would work on ps4 games, the elder scrolls online, I make a server and get that emperor trophy without a problem. If this would be possible, Its just a huge joke...  personally you had your time when the servers where still up, of course too bad, that's why I going for mp trophies only atm, my profile is maybe a mess but I'm happy with every game I boosted so far for the MP trophies 

 

You’re treating it like anyone can do it in minutes, while the person who brings a server back up also mentioned this his profession was IT based. And the topic is about “third party revived servers” not “modded servers for currently available games”. When the game is officially available, it is breaching terms in regards to editing an existing server, but there’s no rules against emulating a server or connecting to an emulated server on PSN. Anyone who wants to create conditions to simplify trophies for games that are currently online would simply hack the trophies with CFW. Trophies have been available on PSN for nearly 10 years now, but only 1 person in that time brought back a server and informed people on a trophy forum that the trophies would be obtainable again through that server.

[Yuichiro-Akuhei]

Like I said I don't know how this would exactly work, but If I cant get trophies for RESISTANCE 2, I'm down. If this is getting allowed, I would not say no.

[MMDE]

7 hours ago, Sergen said:

I appreciate all opinions, for and against and of course this does need to be an established rule if people are going to try to play online on games with DNS codes or networking through their PC and so on. 

 

 

"play online on games with DNS codes"

 

DNS code? It's an address to where a server is located waiting for requests to find the address of a domain name. It's not a code, and we're not just talking about "DNS code". So you got one person hosting a server, and nobody else can do this? I think that can lead to some serious abuse in the community. People may just keep it to a small group of people they like, exclude those they don't like, take money for it etc etc. In the case of the Bulletstorm server, what was offered was the code of the server, so anyone could download the code, build it and run it on their own. That's a huge difference. Only reason DNS addresses is talked about here is to trick the console to connect to that computer by serving it the address of the computer running the server software instead of the long dead servers.

 

On PC, especially in the olden days, the games would come with LAN options, or even custom server software to play the games once the servers went down or add modifications etc. This is the sort of thing the devs would do, because it takes them so little to do when all they do is just give you the options they would otherwise "hide". It's not common on consoles for various reasons. The LAN option is always extremely welcome when all the server does is match making. If the devs didn't give such software, one could make your own server, and this would all be about having fun and continue to play the game, but we're getting into a different territory when it comes to earning trophies you're going to be put on the leaderboard with this.

 

If all the server can do with the game is match making, and the server software is free and available for anyone, I don't have too much against it in terms of earning trophies. I think the way to go about it is approving it on an individual case by case basis. Make sure it's been "okay"'d beforehand. And honestly, you'd have to get the "okay" from all trophy tracking web sites you like. Some might approve all, others may approve it more on an individual basis, and some may not at all.

 

Demon's Souls is not like Bulletstorm, just to be clear about that. It doesn't just do match making. It interacts way more heavily with the game in a lot of different ways.

 

And I get that a lot of people in this thread is super motivated for this to get the online trophies they never was able to get, but I think you should think about it a bit more rationally. I'm not against you having fun with it. I'd be all over doing it myself, but I wouldn't expect the trophies I earned to necessarily be acknowledged as legitimately earned. In fact, I love doing stuff like this myself.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[DEMONICRUBLE18]

I'm not great with computers I had a friend tell me years ago about the DNS thing with AvP when I played through the game last year I had no idea how to do it only now realising he was probably telling me about this. Anyway I think this is a great option for trophy hunting I had an idea a few years ago to do a kick starter to bring back servers of games that had online trophies shut down the kick starter would be to get all the rights and do the things needed for the servers didn't actually do it because I have no idea about how to go about it. 

 

With this though I realise that only one game has been brought back and a post mentioned about the possibility of doing it for other games to make achieving trophies like valour in KZ2 easy as pie.

 

He brings up a good point if it is figured out how to do this for a lot of online games that already have the servers up it can become potentially unfair. Using KZ2 as an example if you boosted say 5 years ago you'd end up getting kicked and your stats wouldn't count. I know a lot of online games do things similar to this. So making a private server in this manner while there are servers that are still usable I would consider cheating. 

 

If it were up to me this method would only really be allowed on games where the servers have been shut down. 

 

Again I realise that only Bulletstorm currently has the capability to do this, but there is a possibility of this happening with more games as time goes on so before that happens I think it should be important to lay down what should and shouldn't be considered cheating when/if the time comes. 

[Elvick_]

10 hours ago, MMDE said:

And Sergen knew this when he created the thread, which is why this all feels so one-sided, misleading and misrepresented to me. He doesn't even attempt to talk about this honestly. Doesn't present the facts correctly, talks about other things as if it's the same thing and doesn't even mention any of the cons.

 

You at least seem to get the problems with it, and what should be discussed here

Well that isn't projection at all. You literally talk about "potentially this" in this same comment, and "what if that"s more than anything related to what we're actually talking about, which is legitimately earning trophies this way.

Of course you'd agree with whoever agrees with you. You have yet to explain to me, or anyone else, how legitimately earning trophies this way is bad. And instead deflect entirely to fantasy. "What if a dragon earns the trophies for them!" That's irrelevant and not the point being made. Explain why what we aret alking about is bad. Not about why something else is bad. Something that everyone already agrees is bad, using modified servers to make it easier or to autopop trophies, but that is not what we're talking about here.

I feel you ignoring my last comment was deliberate as you can't actually honestly discuss this without deflection. Apparently all you can do is talk about something else instead of actually talk about what we're talking about.

If this is how the site is going to be run, it honestly makes me want to seek a replacement. You're being dishonest.

edit; Yevon grant me patience. You literally said in a future comment; "So it's okay because you presented some other problem?" You are only against it because you present some other problem. Come on.
 

10 hours ago, B1rvine said:

You'd be surprised. Obviously I can't be certain, but I'm willing to bet there's a supermajority that get caught. Like 80-90%+ of all cheaters.

A single person being on the leaderboards successfully while bein a cheater delegitimizes it. Let alone more than one. So...

Edited March 15, 2018 by Elvick_

[FlyingDutchmen85]

I read through this whole thread, an interesting read.

 

Personally I wouldn't have anything against people earning trophies in this way (or any other way for that matter). That's something different however than what the leaderboards should allow. From what I gather the actual discussion is not whether it be allright for people to earn trophies in this matter, but whether or not that should be allowed on the leaderboards. The distinction wasn't made very clear at the start of the thread in my opinion but became clearer along the way.

In my view the leaderboards are a separate (though integrated) function of the site, besides the trophy tracking, personal stats, forum, guides, etc. The leaderboards allow a comparison between users, which requires regulations for a basis of the comparison. Some of these regulations (a platinum trophy is worth xx points) are stipulated by Sony, others are determined by the site owners (usage of save files which is not allowed, etc.). The use of the leaderboards is voluntary, but is required that you abide by the regulations. If you don't agree with the regulations, then don't use the leaderboards or find other/start your own leaderboards with other regulations.

 

In this I think that @ProfBambam55 made the best point (jokingly), when he/she stated that he would love to play and earn trophies on a custom server, and would gladly accept to not be on the leaderboards.

On the general point of custom servers being a good thing; I think they are. If it allows people to play games and get trophies that they want great. From what I read through the thread nobody is actually against this.

On the point to allow this on the leaderboards, I don't think that is a good idea, and in this I agree (among others) with @MMDE. The general decision by the site owners was made to make an effort to create a 'clean' leaderboard. There is no way to maintain this with custom servers.

@Sergen does clearly state he/she would like to approve of legitimately earned trophies, and that the person who earned the trophy should be able to proof that they did it legitimately. Though I would agree with this, I don't think it's practically possible. There is no way for the person in question to determine, and thus proof, that they did the trophy legitimately. Who is to say there is no customization (or maybe even a bug) on the custom server that effects the triggering of the trophy.

 

On a practical note; If custom servers that allow for online play of previously unavailable games becomes a thing. I think it would be good to have a warning for users of this site. Making it clear that they can use these custom servers, but are going to (or at risk) of being removed from the leaderboards. If that becomes the decision off course.

   

[MMDE]

6 minutes ago, DEMONICRUBLE18 said:

I'm not great with computers I had a friend tell me years ago about the DNS thing with AvP when I played through the game last year I had no idea how to do it only now realising he was probably telling me about this. Anyway I think this is a great option for trophy hunting I had an idea a few years ago to do a kick starter to bring back servers of games that had online trophies shut down the kick starter would be to get all the rights and do the things needed for the servers didn't actually do it because I have no idea about how to go about it. 

 

With this though I realise that only one game has been brought back and a post mentioned about the possibility of doing it for other games to make achieving trophies like valour in KZ2 easy as pie.

 

He brings up a good point if it is figured out how to do this for a lot of online games that already have the servers up it can become potentially unfair. Using KZ2 as an example if you boosted say 5 years ago you'd end up getting kicked and your stats wouldn't count. I know a lot of online games do things similar to this. So making a private server in this manner while there are servers that are still usable I would consider cheating. 

 

If it were up to me this method would only really be allowed on games where the servers have been shut down. 

 

Again I realise that only Bulletstorm currently has the capability to do this, but there is a possibility of this happening with more games as time goes on so before that happens I think it should be important to lay down what should and shouldn't be considered cheating when/if the time comes. 

 

KZ2 is a more difficult case, because the server offers a lot more functionality than just matchmaking. You talk about the Valor trophy, you'd basically just be the only one on the server if you ran such a server. Also, I know about another thing related to this functionality, which basically means such a server could trigger these trophies without ever even doing what is required.

 

And I don't think what you did with AvP had anything to do with changing what DNS server you used, because I can't find anything about that. What I've read you do is exploit some kind of functionality in the PS3 to play the game online without latest patch.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[johncnstntn__]

I would love to see a chance to get platinum from LoTR Conquest,Fear 2,Resistance 2,SOCOM Special Forces etc.But honestly there has to be some kind of moderation.We have to be sure people are not getting infinite health,ammo or worse getting a boost (xp,kills etc) for hard trophies.And we have to be sure ( i believe there is no way to know) people are not getting things done easier way in a game has already functioning servers like getting free xp,kills in Far Cry 2,Warhawk etc.It is best to leave online trophies in server closed games as unobtainable.

Edited March 15, 2018 by johncnstntn__

[MMDE]

14 minutes ago, Elvick_ said:

Well that isn't projection at all. You literally talk about "potentially this" in this same comment, and "what if that"s more than anything related to what we're actually talking about, which is legitimately earning trophies this way.

Of course you'd agree with whoever agrees with you. You have yet to explain to me, or anyone else, how legitimately earning trophies this way is bad. And instead deflect entirely to fantasy. "What if a dragon earns the trophies for them!" That's irrelevant and not the point being made. Explain why what we aret alking about is bad. Not about why something else is bad. Something that everyone already agrees is bad, using modified servers to make it easier or to autopop trophies, but that is not what we're talking about here.

I feel you ignoring my last comment was deliberate as you can't actually honestly discuss this without deflection. Apparently all you can do is talk about something else instead of actually talk about what we're talking about.

If this is how the site is going to be run, it honestly makes me want to seek a replacement. You're being dishonest.

A single person being on the leaderboards successfully while bein a cheater delegitimizes it. Let alone more than one. So...

 

Sorry, but not sure you get my position on this.

 

What I criticized Sergen for was presenting stuff I already told him wasn't correct, talking about a lot of stuff that had nothing to do with what he wanted other people's and staff's opinion about, and his motivation for making this thread. He still has a lot of this stuff in the opening post, which I think makes for a rather poor basis of discussion on the topic.

 

You seem to have missed it, but I'm not necessarily against emulated servers.

 

And I have presented several issues with it, and if to be allowed, I think it should be approved on an individual basis, list these servers etc. Maybe list some requirements for the servers etc so people know what is likely okay with such servers and what isn't and so on.

 

As for your claim of me agreeing with people who agrees with me? I tried to voice people who seemed to understand what they were talking about here, regardless of if I agreed with them or not.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[DEMONICRUBLE18]

11 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

KZ2 is a more difficult case, because the server offers a lot more functionality than just matchmaking. You talk about the Valor trophy, you'd basically just be the only one on the server if you ran such a server. Also, I know about another thing related to this functionality, which basically means such a server could trigger these trophies without ever even doing what is required.

 

And I don't think what you did with AvP had anything to do with changing what DNS server you used, because I can't find anything about that. What I've read you do is exploit some kind of functionality in the PS3 to play the game online without latest patch.

I saw something about a proxy server glitch on the first page of thread linked in the first post and only remember the words in the message from my friend "that you could do single player and get xp online"  so I just guessed that it was related to the DNS somehow like I said don't know much about computers and never looked into the method that much. Or knew where to look into it. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by DEMONICRUBLE18

[Elvick_]

Just now, MMDE said:

 

Sorry, but not sure you get my position on this.

 

What I criticized Sergen for was presenting stuff I already told him wasn't correct, and his motivation for making this thread. He still has a lot of this stuff in the opening post, which I think makes for a rather discussion on the topic.

 

You seem to have missed it, but I'm not necessarily against emulated servers.

 

And I have presented several issues with it, and if to be allowed, I think it should be approved on an individual basis, list these servers etc. Maybe list some requirements for the servers etc so people know what is likely okay with such servers and what isn't and so on.

You are clearly against it in the terms we're discussing. In that it shouldn't label you as a "cheater" to earn trophies if you accomplish the requirements. Which you clearly believe it should count as "cheating". And the only reasoning behind it being that "well people CAN cheat" this way. But people CAN already cheat, and others have pointed out that if they're going to hack trophies.... they'll probably just do it. Not go through the hassle of establishing an emulated server and then hacking them. Of course they can go through that, but you aren't really preventing anything. Just people from legitimately earning trophies in games through clever innovation that solves the problem of official server shutdown.

If you want to say "it's just too much work to deal with" I'd actually respect that honesty, but you haven't done that. That is how it seems to me, that you just don't want to have to deal with figuring out who is and isn't doing it legit, and don't want to have to deal with appeals and evidence about it. If I'm wrong, feel free to say so. But it comes across that way, and again if you had simply used that as your argument in the first place then I'd disagree with you, but at least respect it.

[MMDE]

3 minutes ago, Elvick_ said:

You are clearly against it in the terms we're discussing. In that it shouldn't label you as a "cheater" to earn trophies if you accomplish the requirements. Which you clearly believe it should count as "cheating". And the only reasoning behind it being that "well people CAN cheat" this way. But people CAN already cheat, and others have pointed out that if they're going to hack trophies.... they'll probably just do it. Not go through the hassle of establishing an emulated server and then hacking them. Of course they can go through that, but you aren't really preventing anything. Just people from legitimately earning trophies in games through clever innovation that solves the problem of official server shutdown.

If you want to say "it's just too much work to deal with" I'd actually respect that honesty, but you haven't done that. That is how it seems to me, that you just don't want to have to deal with figuring out who is and isn't doing it legit, and don't want to have to deal with appeals and evidence about it. If I'm wrong, feel free to say so. But it comes across that way, and again if you had simply used that as your argument in the first place then I'd disagree with you, but at least respect it.

 

Sorry, but you're just wrong about what you think I'm for or against.

[DEMONICRUBLE18]

6 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

 

And I have presented several issues with it, and if to be allowed, I think it should be approved on an individual basis, list these servers etc. Maybe list some requirements for the servers etc so people know what is likely okay with such servers and what isn't and so on.

I agree.

[Elvick_]

8 hours ago, BlindMango said:

And is that ultimately fair, and does it still have everyone on an equal playing field in their ability to get a trophy? I'm... not sure to be honest.

That's an interesting point. Though, I wonder how many trophy hunters are going to even start a game with closed servers at this point. And then there's non-trophy hunters to consider that are on the site, who earn trophies but only because they're unavoidable. Thanks for bringing a different perspective on it.

11 minutes ago, MMDE said:

Sorry, but you're just wrong about what you think I'm for or against.

Well thanks for telling me how I got it wrong when literally all you've talked about is how it's hacking and therefore flaggable. What even.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Elvick_

[MMDE]

15 minutes ago, Elvick_ said:

That's an interesting point. Though, I wonder how many trophy hunters are going to even start a game with closed servers at this point. And then there's non-trophy hunters to consider that are on the site, who earn trophies but only because they're unavoidable. Thanks for bringing a different perspective on it.

Well thanks for telling me how I got it wrong when literally all you've talked about is how it's hacking and therefore flaggable. What even.

 

edit; if I summation is wrong then that means you support it then? lolwat

 

What I'm for is if it's going to happen it's done on an individual case by case basis. This should be based on clearly defined requirements, and what is allowed should be clearly listed etc. In other words, I'm against the blatant acceptance of this in terms of what is allowed on the leaderboards, as it is custom software/mods whatever. And if it's going to be accepted, it should be done properly. Talking about all kinds of other things unrelated to this is not going to contribute to the discussion.

Edited March 15, 2018 by MMDE

[Elvick_]

6 minutes ago, MMDE said:

What I'm for is if it's going to happen it's done on an individual case by case basis. This should be based on clearly defined requirements, and what is allowed should be clearly listed etc. In other words, I'm against the blatant acceptance of this in terms of what is allowed on the leaderboards, as it is custom software/mods whatever. And if it's going to be accepted, it should be done properly.

I have never been so confused in my life it's like I'm talking to two different people. Re-read your original comments, because if you don't understand how someone would get the impression that you're entirely against it based on how you responded to everybody about it... then I don't know what to tell you. I even re-read them and I still get the opposite impression.

Edited March 15, 2018 by Elvick_

[EternalChaos72]

I'm against the idea of this custom server, once the official server has closed down it should remain closed unless of course the devs themselves decide to bring it back. The people/person who creates the servers could easily mod them making the trophies easier. So yeah, a big thumbs down from me.

[TerraTanium]

I think the real issue here is that it would be difficult to check whether trophies are legit or not when using a custom/revived/dummy whatever you name it server. Should it be allowed if there is no way to beat out the cheaters?

[B1rvine]

Here’s a concept for everyone to think about too: Would a custom server be legit if someone did this with a game that had a currently active server still online?

 

@Sergen Cant find your post since I’m on my phone now, but I built a server for a now defunct PC game (Myth, by Bungie, when they actually made good stuff) when I was in high school. It’s not as hard as you think. 

 

2 hours ago, Elvick_ said:

A single person being on the leaderboards successfully while bein a cheater delegitimizes it. Let alone more than one. So...

 

So... what? Just because not everyone is caught means we shouldn’t attempt to keep things as legit as possible? Should all cheaters get to stay on the leaderboard just because we can’t get them all?  I’d also disagree that it’s delegitimized, simply because we can’t get everybody. It would be though if the site didn’t do everything it could to prevent such people from being on the leaderboard.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by B1rvine

[Elvick_]

4 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

So... what? Just because not everyone is caught means we shouldn’t attempt to keep things as legit as possible? Should all cheaters get to stay on the leaderboard just because we can’t get them all?  I’d also disagree that it’s delegitimized, simply because we can’t get everybody. It would be though if the site didn’t do everything it could to prevent such people from being on the leaderboard.

The entire point of a leaderboard is to show legitimate rankings. If any are illegitimate... then do the math.

And no, that's not what I'm saying. Don't be obtuse. I'm saying that if you deny something just because of how it might affect the leaderboards, then you should probably argue against removing them entirely. Because there's always going to be problems with it. You can't just arbitrarily say that x is bad because it could affect leadeboards, but y is fine despite it also having the same potential of affecting leaderboards. That's hypocritical. Hold the same standards. That's my point.

[Floorkiller74]

18 hours ago, ExHaseo said:

I don't really see how it's much of an issue. They're earning the trophies legit. No auto-popping or hacking involved. So, I don't see an issue. I'm actually pretty stoked about old games getting fan servers, so that people can go back and play them. I'm hoping it happens with more games, especially with PS3 and Vita online support being potentially pulled next year.

 

 

If Online support is pulled for PS3, it won't matter if you get trophies on a DNS server, because you would never be able to synch them to PSN. 

[B1rvine]

28 minutes ago, Elvick_ said:

The entire point of a leaderboard is to show legitimate rankings. If any are illegitimate... then do the math.

And no, that's not what I'm saying. Don't be obtuse. I'm saying that if you deny something just because of how it might affect the leaderboards, then you should probably argue against removing them entirely. Because there's always going to be problems with it. You can't just arbitrarily say that x is bad because it could affect leadeboards, but y is fine despite it also having the same potential of affecting leaderboards. That's hypocritical. Hold the same standards. That's my point.

 

My original comment was an answer to a specific comment BamBam made, about the detectability of CFW users who put in “legit” timestamps and how they are detectable by means I won’t go into but the flag team knows. That really has no bearing on my opinion on whether custom server’s should be legitimate or not.

 

What does matter to me is that not everyone will be on equal footing, and I explained why in previous posts.

 

I’ve never said “x” is bad or “y” is good. PSNP already defines that. Not me. But based on their “current” rules, this custom server option would absolutely fall under the “cheating realm.”

 

If you’d like to discuss making an exception to the rules and allowing this fine, but I disagree an exception should be made (again, I’ve outlined why earlier)

Edited March 15, 2018 by B1rvine

[TheLakota]

This thread:

 

 

(This is topical. If you don't understand, please ask.)