The reputation of the Souls series.

[Paleblood]

14 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Ah, well, I still prefer DS1 to Demon’s Souls, but the difference is a matter of degrees. Mine would Probably be:

 

1. Dark Souls 2

2. Salt and Sanctuary

3. Dark Souls 3

4. Bloodborne

5. Dark Souls 1

6. The Surge

7. Demon’s Souls

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some space

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some more space

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zzzz

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wha? What? Where am I?

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oh yeah, the list!

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some more space

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8. Lords of the Fallen

 

Not played Nioh yet, but I’ll get to it one day!

 

Haha! I love you right now for that Lord of the Fallen diss . I mean, it's not terrible... but it's certainly not good either. I actually think the Surge is somehow even worse. Deck 13 just doesn't seem to click with me, I don't like a single game in their catalogue.

I only played Nioh at a friend's. But not nearly enough to have a credible sample size.

 

J

Edited May 30, 2018 by Stardew Shelly

[NamoPh]

I'm just gonna echo my response to you on the thread that almost certainly sparked this one. Using your head to crack a wall is not everyone's idea on fun. So the smug "original Souls crowd", as well as From Soft, are doing their favourite game a disservice by marketing the game for its difficulty first and foremost. When Yahtzee, a comedy character known for hating and tearing a new a-hole into every game, is the only one who has given a worthwhile reason on why you should try the series, as part of his comedy routine no less, you can see that there is a problem.

 

For me personally, the reason that the game is on eternal backlog status, and your post reinforces, is that by all looks the series is a huge timesink, that I'm not anywhere near close to being able or willing to invest anytime soon. The game's reputation put the game on my radar, as platting Revengeance, Dead Space 2 & XCOM are some of my favourite experiences, for reasons beside the difficulty though. But as soon the timesink alarm went up, it didn't really stand a chance.

[MagusCreed]

6 hours ago, Stardew Shelly said:

 

 

You only have one first playthrough. Don't destroy it. If you only play for trophies, you have to play through these games like 5 times anyway. Try to enjoy something for a change.

 

 

 

J

 

 

This is the greatest takeaway from this.  My first playthrough in any game is blind.  No walkthroughs, no guides, no nothing.  When I finished Dark Souls for the first time, THEN I cracked open my Future Press hardcover guide.  I was amazed at all the things I didn't do, which only compelled me to go through it again and again.

 

If people want to spoil their own joy from the game they bought, that's their prerogative.  It seems to go against why you play the game in the first place, to actually experience what the title can throw at you and how you adapt / overcome it.

[Cassylvania]

I'm glad to see this topic is still around. I didn't have enough time this morning to type up all my thoughts, and I was worried this thread was going to devolve into a massive argument and get locked. Kudos to all of you for keeping it civil.

 

Now... *ahem*

 

I think the best point you made (as @MagusCreed just pointed out) was that you only get one first playthrough. That’s true. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and I agree that it should be a good one. Your argument, however, (pardon me while I put words in your mouth -- I realize this may not be exactly what you mean) is essentially, "My experience with this game was memorable because I died on Big Boss Dude With a Sword a hundred times before I finally bested him. Somebody who cheesed this boss or looked up a strategy online is depriving themselves of that experience." And while my initial reaction would be to agree with you, that I also LOVE that feeling of overcoming a really tough obstacle, that very same thing can sour another player's experience with a game. 

 

Don't believe me? Take Bloodborne. Loved the game, but I didn’t feel any sense of accomplishment when I beat Defiled Chalice Amygdala. I was relieved, sure -- glad it was over -- but that isn't my fondest memory of the game, and I don’t think anything would have been lost from my experience if I had beat her on my second or third try. If anything, I lost time that could’ve been spent exploring the rest of the game, or a different game altogether. Do I really need to struggle that much to enjoy something? Because if Amyglada was my first and only introduction to Bloodborne, I don't think I would consider it one of my favorite games of all-time.

 

I'm on the wrong side of 30 now, and I can totally understand players who are unable to commit to longer, harder games. As much as I would love to play The Witcher 3 or Final Fantasy, 100+ hour RPGs simply aren't realistic for me these days. Who am I to blame someone for not wanting to waste their precious gaming time fighting the same boss over and over again?

 

While we’re on the subject, let’s take another game. Wait for it... ... ...

 

...

 

Wait...

 

...

 

... ... ...No, not Skyrim. Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning! Is it a good game? Maybe. But a major part of the game -- namely, the story and dialogue -- was NOT something I enjoyed. I’m sure there are people out there who loved that world and its characters, and they enjoyed reading up on all the lore, but it did nothing for me. I was bored with the game. I liked the combat and the exploration, but I couldn't stand listening to every NPC. The best decision I made in that game was putting my TV on mute and skipping through all the rest of the dialogue. Sure, I wasn't playing the game the "intended" way, and I'm sure other players would scoff at me for missing out on the story, but I went from having a bad experience to a good one. In the end, since it's my game and my money, that's all that should really matter.

 

Is it really any different for people who take the easy path in Dark Souls? They might not get that feeling of elation that comes from beating a super tough boss on the eighty-third attempt, but they also don't have to deal with the frustration that comes from dying eighty-two times, and I don't think either of those things are necessary for having a good time.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Cassylvania

[Redgrave]

I don't see the issue of people wanting to look up stuff ahead of time, especially in a game with missable NPC questlines and other items that you aren't given a lot of info on. Sure, it might not be the way you or some others would play the game, but as others have said, people play and enjoy the games differently and it really irks me whenever I see certain people in the Souls community say people are playing the game "wrong" or kicking the elitism up to eleven whenever someone admits they did co-op or used the Ring of Faith and Protection or some other thing that makes the game "easier". If From didn't want you playing their games the "right" way then they wouldn't have added those things in.

 

Anyway, for me personally, I find the trophy list itself to be something of a chore because it makes you buy and upgrade things that I'm never going to use like boss weapons or other spells and Miracles. I find those sort of things mundane because it stretches the game out longer than it needs to and makes me feel like I'm wasting materials and resources for something I can actually use or worst case I have to farm for more. I know Bloodborne did have something similar, but it was simple and it didn't ask you to upgrade multiple weapons that you will likely never use. Along with that, I have to make sure I save NPC's and know where they are in certain areas, so I do keep a wiki tab open whenever I go to a new area just to make sure I don't miss the NPC or mess up their questline somehow.

 

And yes, I know there is NG+, but NG+ also means enemies and bosses are harder. So I would rather go through my first playthrough getting as much done as possible before going into NG+ so I don't have to mess around with all the other stuff as much. It's not so much as I'm not enjoying the game (see below) but I can't say I like how NG+ is basically "the hard game, but now even harder" and I don't want to mess with it anymore than I have to.

 

All that said the game is fantastic and I understand the praise it gets. The bosses (most of them anyway) are great and it certainly feels satisfying when you finally beat them, and despite all the salt Sen's Fortress dispenses, I truly admire how elaborate and complex it is. However areas like Lost Izalith make me feel like I wandered into a different game. It's so strange how you go from elaborate and nice places like Undead Burg to Anor Londo, and then all of a sudden there's a lava area with boss enemies that look like they were just copy and pasted next to each other because whoever was in charge of that area was in a hurry to go to lunch. And then you have Catacombs and Tomb of the Giants that are just pitch black with skeletons jumping out at every corner and it gets easy to get lost and confused. Knowing I have to do it in NG+ makes me dread going to those areas again, and the thought of me messing something up to where I have to do it in NG++ makes me want to go Hollow.

 

So yes, I'm enjoying the game in a way that I'm sure some in the Souls community or just other people in general wouldn't approve of. And while I don't mind a challenge I'm not a fan of the already hard game getting harder with each cycle especially when I have to go through areas that I and I know many other people do not like at all and I just want to make the experience as painless as I can so I don't wind up having it affect my opinion of the game. Plus, I've seen enough LP's and other videos related to the game that I don't think there's really much else that can surprise me anyway.

[triplejmzu8]

9 hours ago, Stardew Shelly said:

I completely agree to every word of this.

 

My list would be:

1. Bloodborne
2. Dark Souls 3
3. Dark Souls 2
4. Demon's Souls
5. Dark Souls

 

And I love to play every single one of them. ?

 

J

Thank you. I just have to say, danke, thank you @Stardew Shelly. It happened to me lots of times that people got angry at me cause I said that Dark Souls 1 was my least favorite Souls game. I'm glad, other people with that opinion exist.  However, my list would still be a little different:

1. Dark Souls 2
2. Demon's Souls
3. Bloodborne
4. Dark Souls 3
5. Dark Souls 1

Edited May 31, 2018 by triplejmzu8

[CaptainAskHole]

well, dark souls is hard...for casual players, not us damn crazy gamers. hahaha

and I think even for us if we are not focused and cautious, yes we can die to stupid mistakes not because the game is hard for us, just because we are distracted.

[KaiserMaglorix]

Guess I'll type my opinion on the nature that is the souls games.

First off I love them all! Yes even Dark Souls 2 for all the die hard "fans" who like to pretend the game doesn't even exist. We all started somewhere and with experience we get better and the next game in the series seems more easy then when we started. What everyone needs to remember is everyone play the games for many reasons, some of the reasons are to challenge runs by using first only, some only like to use spells, while I enjoy grabbing the largest thing possible and hitting people with it! Point is we all have our own way of playing, whether we agree with those ways is really up to us and not be children about it. I have a hard time not getting upset with people who would rather have things handed to them and not experience well the game! People who want everything dropped for them so they can be "overpowered" and don't need to learn the game and just get the Plat quicker. I'm not going to go out of my way to tell them they are playing the game wrong because if that's what they want to do then by all means go for it.

Sorry mini rant there, but that's all I can think of at this moment.  

[Z1MZUM]

I love the Souls series though I never relived the experience again after Demons Souls. Sure I like the 3 darks and to a lesser degree BB though that experience you're talking about Stardew Shelly is a 1 time deal for me and that's Demons.

 

As for people and noobs watching youtube videos? Well fine by me and I also will Praise the Sun for anybody. I will never claim to be a Souls expert and will respect how people want to play. I made my other half wait for me patiently outside Tsutaya in Shibuya on release day of DS3 and also went to a DS2 themed cafe in Japan previously. I still play Framegride on the DC and Kingsfield every now and again on Ps1, I respect From Software.

[Sicho]

7 hours ago, Cassylvania said:

 

I think the best point you made (as @MagusCreed just pointed out) was that you only get one first playthrough. That’s true. You only get one chance to make a first impression, and I agree that it should be a good one.

 

 

Sometimes, the first experience isn't the best but a second chance can be all a game needs.

 

I started with Demon's Souls. I really liked it but somehow never finished it. Not because I found it too hard or boring, it was just one of those situations where maybe because of too many other games or something, you just somehow stop playing.

 

But since I liked it, I immediately bought Dark Souls when it came out. But my first Dark Souls run ended before I even rang the second bell. And I don't really know why. Maybe my build was bad, maybe I just wasn't in the mood ... but I stopped playing after a short time.

 

And then a lot of time passed. Suddenly, the release of Dark Souls 2 was imminent.

 

So some days before Dark Souls 2 came out, I realized that it bothered me that I never finished Demon's or Dark 1. So I went back to Dark Souls and started a new game... and this time it clicked! I played through it without any interruption, not playing any other game for days. It was glorious!

 

Then Dark Souls 2 came out ... and I never finished it  This time though, I think it's definitely the game... somehow, it feels "wrong". The vibe is just not right somehow. I just don't like it very much. But since I started it immediately after finishing Dark Souls 1 (DS2 was delivered to me a day before I was able to finish DS1, so right after I beat DS1, I took that disc out and put DS2 in) the reason might also be saturation. 

Long story short: I never finished DS2 but still liked the series, the gameplay, the concepts, the whole Souls experience.

 

So of course, when the PS4 came, I had to get Bloodborne. And everything was glorious again  The same for Dark Souls 3  And now, I'm playing the DS Remaster and I'm hooked again

 

And I'm planning to go back to Demon's some day. Maybe I will even get DS2 a second chance. And I want to plat DS3 so maybe I will go back to that one after I finished the DS Remaster.

 

If I were to rate the games, the order would be:

 

1. Dark Souls

2. Dark Souls 3

3. Demon's Souls

4. Dark Souls 2

 

I leave Bloodborne out because, for me, it is simply a different series. It would probably be placed between DS1 and DS3.

 

As to how one "should" play these games... I think the beauty of the series is that there are so many possibilities. While I like playing "by the meta" in f.ex. card games, I really don't like it in RPGs. Of course, Dark Souls is sometimes very obscure and vague about its mechanics and inner workings and this is part of its charm so I can understand why looking up stuff might ruin it for some people (me included). But not everyone plays RPGs to be "immersed", some just want to speedrun games, some just want to find a way to make an overpowered build and don't care about the story, others simply want to get through with it but without "losing" too much time being lost etc ... I think, looking up stuff is legit, even playing with a guide/walkthrough is OK, if that is what you like to do. Because even if you know what to do and where to go, you still need to go there and do it. And in the end, isn't the way the goal?
And I also think if a newcomer plays Dark Souls with some handholding via a walkthrough etc., he might try the next installment without one, since he now knows his way around better. You don't learn to drive a car without some instructions at least. And not everyone is good at "learning by doing", some people get frustrated easily or tend to give up fast and just need a hand for a while until they feel comfortable enough.
If guides and YouTube etc. get more people to play these games, which then makes these games more successful, thus enabling FROM to make more entries in the series in the future, it is a good thing, no?

[Janire1911]

I recently played and platinumed Bloodborne and I absolutely loved it. After getting over the extremely frustrating first few hours to actually learn how to play it, it turned out to be one of all-time favorite games in my 30+ years of gaming. It's definitely in my top 10, probably even top 5. I then decided I wanted more so I got Dark Souls Remastered and I have to admit that so far I'm not really loving it and I don't have nearly the same urge to play it as I did Bloodborne. The combat is just so much slower and clunkier that I'm having a hard time adjusting to it and the boss fights so far have actually been pretty boring. The last boss I've killed so far has been Gaping Dragon and that fight was mostly just running around in circles. None of the adrenaline-filled, hectic boss fights of Bloodborne so far.

 

I'm still going to finish it at least once but unless my experience improves dramatically I'm probably not going for the platinum and I'm going to give DS2 and DS3 a pass.

[Sicho]

1 hour ago, Janire1911 said:

I recently played and platinumed Bloodborne and I absolutely loved it. After getting over the extremely frustrating first few hours to actually learn how to play it, it turned out to be one of all-time favorite games in my 30+ years of gaming. It's definitely in my top 10, probably even top 5. I then decided I wanted more so I got Dark Souls Remastered and I have to admit that so far I'm not really loving it and I don't have nearly the same urge to play it as I did Bloodborne. The combat is just so much slower and clunkier that I'm having a hard time adjusting to it and the boss fights so far have actually been pretty boring. The last boss I've killed so far has been Gaping Dragon and that fight was mostly just running around in circles. None of the adrenaline-filled, hectic boss fights of Bloodborne so far.

 

I'm still going to finish it at least once but unless my experience improves dramatically I'm probably not going for the platinum and I'm going to give DS2 and DS3 a pass.

 

a somewhat related article

https://kotaku.com/the-thrill-of-finally-playing-the-first-dark-souls-1826427239

seems like many people have similar experiences with the Souls series as in that Bloodborne converted them to try Souls again.

I don't think it can be emphasized enough what Bloodborne did to the Soulsborne series as a whole.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Sicho

[scemopagliaccioh]

I agree, and your argument can be shown on the trophy percentages. Let's take Priscilla's trophy, for example, sitting at a 35% or the Darkwraith covenant, the requirements for them are  extremely arcane, and, while for the darkwraith it is  possible to randomly get it during your playthrough it is literally impossible to get the Priscilla's one without a guide or prior knowledge, yet the difference between Priscilla  and a story one let's say Bed of Chaos is only 1.9%? Impossible. It's a pity because the greatest aspects of Dark Souls are the characters, the story, and the way the story is told, not "dude it's hard xDDD". Same deal with Bloodborne, who always baffled me how the easiest ending is the rarest and the hardest the more common.

Edited May 31, 2018 by scemopagliaccioh