Should Big Leagues be a flaggable trophy?

[SpaceCoresDad]

31 minutes ago, Spaz said:

So are Grand Theft Auto IV and V safe?

 

I don't know if I'd call GTAV on PS3 "safe," but IV is pretty much dead. I don't think you'd need to worry about any hackers because nobody plays it public anymore, lmao.

Edited April 27, 2020 by SpaceCoresDad

[Joker-Kun890]

11 minutes ago, Spaz said:

 

Then they need to do some research ahead of time. If they're willing to take the risk, the call is on them.

 

My stance on this is I feel no sympathy for people who got a bunch of trophies illegitimately from a hacked lobby, or people who waited too long to obtain all the online trophies when they servers were still up.

 

The fact of the matter is, these companies do shut down the servers for their games they don't want to clean up.

 

There shouldn't be a risk in someone popping in a game and playing it like it's meant to be played. Whether you have sympathy for them is irrelevant. 

 

Accessing dev menus in games - okay

 

Setting up macros on remote play - okay

 

Using turbo controllers and other hardware - okay

 

Accessing admin commands - okay

 

Intentionally glitching games - okay

 

Playing a game online the way its meant to be played - do research ur dum

 

The cheat team wants to slap a special icon beside the game on their list go for it, but it's comical that players are flagged as cheaters for something that has nothing to do with them and is unintentional while all the above stuff is a-okay. ?

 

 

9 minutes ago, SpaceCoresDad said:

 

I don't know if I'd call GTAV on PS3 "safe," but IV is pretty much dead. I don't think you'd need to worry about any hackers because nobody plays it public anymore, lmao.

 

I haven't played V, but you're correct about IV. I'm playing it now and you can set private slots to max. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Joker-Kun890

[AJ_Radio]

12 minutes ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

Playing a game online the way its meant to be played - do research ur dum

 

The cheat team wants to slap a special icon beside the game on their list go for it, but it's comical that players are flagged for something that has nothing to do with them and is unintentional while all the above stuff is a-okay. 

 

This is where I disagree with you.

 

I have no problem with people playing a game online the way its meant to be played. You get the most fun factor out of that. What does get me is when 'trophy hunters' get all up in arms about being flagged for an old game such as Call of Duty: World at War.

 

Because I guess that:

 

1.  They went on the game to earn the trophies they had left.
2.  They played the game for fun.

 

I'm aware that older games still have companies that take care of their servers. World of Warcraft is a good example. That's fine. But really if a game like Grand Theft Auto IV has had very little activity, and a player just happened to pop a bunch of trophies illegitimately, then I think it shouldn't be the companies fault.

 

People can tell me boosting is cheating and I will always disagree with that. However trophies you got that you did not earn by satisfying their trophy requirements from someone else who hacked the game is still your fault because those trophies are now on your account.

 

The only thing that I can give the players for was it was simply out of their control. I don't know how players can say they got into something that had nothing to do with them, yet they were there in the hacked lobby. The fault is on both the player and the hacker.

 

It sucks that players get flagged for stuff like this. But it's a slap in the face for those who got the trophies legit or through boosting, and for those who can't get said trophies anymore because of server shutdown. Meanwhile the other players got the trophies through a hacked lobby, so it's not fair in the first place to everyone else who worked on them. Therefore they should be flagged and removed from the leaderboards.

 

The only solution I can think of is if those trophies were to be deleted from someones account and they had to earn them again. That's the only time trophies should be deleted, because being able to delete trophies would destroy the entire purpose of being a trophy hunter.

 

This is my take on this.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Spaz

[Joker-Kun890]

8 minutes ago, Spaz said:

 

This is where I disagree with you.

 

I have no problem with people playing a game online the way its meant to be played. You get the most fun factor out of that. What does get me is when 'trophy hunters' get all up in arms about being flagged for an old game such as Call of Duty: World at War.

 

Because I guess that:

 

1.  They went on the game to earn the trophies they had left.
2.  They played the game for fun.

 

I'm aware that older games still have companies that take care of their servers. World of Warcraft is a good example. That's fine. But really if a game like Grand Theft Auto IV has had very little activity, and a player just happened to pop a bunch of trophies illegitimately, then I think it shouldn't be the companies fault.

 

People can tell me boosting is cheating and I will always disagree with that. However trophies that you did not earn by satisfying their trophy requirements by someone else is still your fault because those trophies are now on your account.

 

The only thing that I can give the players for was it was simply out of their control. I don't know how players can say they got into something that had nothing to do with them, yet they were there in the hacked lobby. The fault is on both the player and the hacker.

 

It sucks that players get flagged for stuff like this. But it's a slap in the face for those who got the trophies legit or through boosting, and for those who can't get said trophies anymore because of server shutdown. Meanwhile the others players got the trophies through a hacked lobby, so it's not fair in the first place to everyone else who worked on them.

 

The only solution I can think of is if those trophies were to be deleted from someones account and they had to earn them again. That's the only time trophies should be deleted, because being able to delete trophies would destroy the entire purpose of being a trophy hunter.

 

This is my take on this.

 

That's a fair take, though I disagree. 

 

Let me ask you this though, 

 

I played WaW off and on for... Geez, probably 7-8 years. I eventually got the platinum and put it down because I didn't want to pay $30 for the dlc maps. 

 

They then surprisingly went on sale, so I picked them up, both because I enjoyed the game and to clean up the list. 

 

If I were to have hopped online to play the content I just purchased, beyond just the base game, and got my trophies pinged, I lose my entire list. 

 

Now previously you said companies shouldn't be expected to support servers for such old games and they probably don't care. I actually agree with that. 

 

However, some companies, mainly activision, continue to sell *online* dlc for these games for prices that cost more than some new games. 

 

Surely they're still responsible when they continue to sell online-centric content and even promote sales from time to time, no? Doesn't that also leave room for new gamers to assume their product is still being supported? 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Joker-Kun890

[Arcesius]

18 minutes ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

Accessing dev menus in games - okay

 

Setting up macros on remote play - okay

 

Using turbo controllers and other hardware - okay

 

Accessing admin commands - okay

 

Intentionally glitching games - okay

 

Playing a game online the way its meant to be played - do research ur dum

 

I would actually be in favor of not allowing many of the other methods you mentioned, though...

Edited April 27, 2020 by Arcesius

[B1rvine]

26 minutes ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

snip

 

How is removing trophies from someone's record -that they didn't actually earn- either thru a whitelist or flag, actually "punishment?" Truly legit gamers won't be at any risk of losing a leaderboard status on the two games this can happen with since removal requires three flags.

 

Everyone wants to talk about how unfair it is to all these players, but what about being fair to the players who actually earned it?  The 100% rarity is 0.2% and if every flagged player was restored, not only would the "fastest player" be illegitimate, the rarity would jump to over 6%. Doing nothing essentially takes their ability to display a remarkable achievement. 

 

Some of the other things you mentioned, like macros, how is that supposed to be monitored?

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by B1rvine

[Joker-Kun890]

6 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

 

I would actually be in favor of not allowing many of the other methods you mentioned, though...

 

I don't care much about any of them, but I agree 100% that if you're calling out trophies from hacked lobbies then many of those things should be disallowed as well. 

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

How is removing a trophies from someone's record -that they didn't actually earn- either thru a whitelist or flag, actually "punishment?" Truly legit gamers won't be at any risk of losing a leaderboard status on the two games this can happen with since removal requires three flags.

 

Everyone wants to talk about how unfair it is to all these players, but what about being fair to the players who actually earned it?  The 100% rarity is 0.2% and if every flagged player was restored, not only would the "fastest player" be illegitimate, the rarity would jump to over 6%. Doing nothing essentially takes their ability to display a remarkable achievement. 

 

Some of the other things you mentioned, like macros, how is that supposed to be monitored?

 

Read my post directly above this one. It's not always as cut and dry as an entire list being pinged. 

 

Again, I spent years playing WaW off and on. I bought dlc that was still being sold in the store and being promoted by the dev in a sale. If my dlc trophies pinged I'm screwed. Simply because I played a public match, aka, played the game the way it was meant to. 

 

My issue much of the time is moreso to do with the attitude of a handful of posters. Either way it's unfair, and that's the devs fault. Let's stop blaming players. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Joker-Kun890

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

That's a fair take, though I disagree.

 

Good. You're being more mature than a lot of people I come across, who automatically go on the defensive. Kudos to you sir.

 

2 minutes ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

If I were to have hopped online to play the content I just purchased, beyond just the base game, and got my trophies pinged, I lose my entire list.

 

Normally I will blame you, but my general opinion is the leaderboards don't mean much in the first place.

 

I know a few people who got flagged but still keep their flagged games on their profile for everyone to see. Should people really be that concerned over one game they got flagged on?

 

I mean yes, it sucks, especially if you were going after the trophies either completely legit or through boosting. I would certainly hate to be someone who worked his ass off only to get flagged on a game because a hacker was there and whom I had no control over.

 

I can't say much on Activision, they still sell it on the store but they're no longer concerned about it, because only a few people will bother with that older content.

 

5 minutes ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

Surely they're still responsible when they continue to sell online-centric content and even promote sales from time to time, no? Doesn't that also leave room for new gamers to assume their product is still being supported? 

 

Well again, a bit of research ahead of time is always good. There are tons of people who don't do their research, and I'm at that point where I just blame them because frankly, they should of known better.

[Joker-Kun890]

1 minute ago, Spaz said:

 

Good. You're being more mature than a lot of people I come across, who automatically go on the defensive. Kudos to you sir.

 

 

Normally I will blame you, but my general opinion is the leaderboards don't mean much in the first place.

 

I know a few people who got flagged but still keep their flagged games on their profile for everyone to see. Should people really be that concerned over one game they got flagged on?

 

I mean yes, it sucks, especially if you were going after the trophies either completely legit or through boosting. I would certainly hate to be someone who worked his ass off only to get flagged on a game because a hacker was there and whom I had no control over.

 

I can't say much on Activision, they still sell it on the store but they're no longer concerned about it, because only a few people will bother with that older content.

 

 

Well again, a bit of research ahead of time is always good. There are tons of people who don't do their research, and I'm at that point where I just blame them because frankly, they should of known better.

 

Off-topic:

 

I'll be that one person who buys the Mw3 dlc next time it goes on sale. Loved that games spec ops. ?

 

[Nitro]

14 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

 

I would actually be in favor of not allowing many of the other methods you mentioned, though...

Why? Te other methods aren't illegitimate way of getting them. And also there is no way of policing them. 

 

On topic though, terrible idea. People should be flagged if they got the trophies through modded trophies/lobbies etc.

I recently did PS3 version of Black Ops III and everytime we saw someone with a coloured name or something of that effect, we left. We were vigilant to not get our accounts screwed by those people. So I'd say it's on the people who get the trophies and then sync and complain that it's "not their fault". Anytime you access a game which is on last gen and companies clearly don't care out, you need to wisen up and be prepared to take measures to not get flagged if you care about it.

[B1rvine]

26 minutes ago, Joker-Kun890 said:

It's not always as cut and dry as an entire list being pinged. 

 

I can partially agree with you in theory, about an entire list vs affected trophies being flagged, only because it's not the players fault, but that just makes everything murky.

 

For regular games not facing this issue, if a player intentionally cheats a single trophy only, and the rest of their list is legit, is their "game" cheated or that trophy? One portion still affects the whole. If in say, baseball, a particular batter was using performance enhancing drugs and has enough hits to make a difference, and the entire team wins, would you say, "well the rest of the team didn't cheat, so let's just remove the individuals hits only?" Not exactly an identical comparison, but you get the idea.

 

We (or at least I'm not) aren't blaming the players, we just don't want illegitimate trophies on the leaderboard. Ignorance or accidents shouldn't be a valid excuse. I'm still 100% in favor of a whitelist, but that still doesn't let them off entirely free.

 

I'm still curious how things like macros are supposed to be monitored. 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by B1rvine

[Arcesius]

3 minutes ago, Nitro said:

Why? Te other methods aren't illegitimate way of getting them. And also there is no way of policing them. 

 

Oh, just my personal opinion. I was referring to using macros / scripts and using Turbo Controllers. Both methods involve third-party soft- or hardware, so they are not fair-play in my book. That being said, I'm very well aware that it is impossible to monitor those practices. But it would be nice if at least the methods were not encouraged as much as they are on this site (including AHK-Scripts in guides, etc...). 

[Nitro]

11 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

 

Oh, just my personal opinion. I was referring to using macros / scripts and using Turbo Controllers. Both methods involve third-party soft- or hardware, so they are not fair-play in my book. That being said, I'm very well aware that it is impossible to monitor those practices. But it would be nice if at least the methods were not encouraged as much as they are on this site (including AHK-Scripts in guides, etc...). 

Same argument of whether cheating in Single-player games is fair or not. I personally have a few turbo controllers and a CronusMAX that can run scripts for me. The CronusMAX runs scripts to usually just make sure a controller doesn't idle out because some games (Deformers comes to mind) requires you to move the camera, move your character and shoot for you not to be disconnected. That is the main use of my Cronus. It's unfair if I was using it in a competitive game online, sure, so in that instance I agree with you.

[Joker-Kun890]

25 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

I can partially agree with you in theory, about an entire list vs affected trophies being flagged, only because it's not the players fault, but that just makes everything murky.

 

For regular games not facing this issue, if a player intentionally cheats a single trophy only, and the rest of their list is legit, is their "game" cheated or that trophy? One portion still affects the whole. If in say, baseball, a particular batter was using performance enhancing drugs and has enough hits to make a difference, and the entire team wins, would you say, "well the rest of the team didn't cheat, so let's just remove the individuals hits only?" Not exactly an identical comparison, but you get the idea.

 

We (or at least I'm not) aren't blaming the players, we just don't want illegitimate trophies on the leaderboard. Ignorance or accidents shouldn't be a valid excuse. I'm still 100% in favor of a whitelist, but that still doesn't let them off entirely free.

 

I'm still curious how things like macros are supposed to be monitored. 

 

 

To be fair, both those examples involve intentional actions. But I can reciprocate in partially agreeing. 

 

The last page or so of comments has done a great job of illustrating the overall point I was trying to get across though. The issue isn't as black and white as some (not all) people make it out to be, and that cuts both ways. And I will continue to state that I think it's unfair to say its the fault of the player when it's out of their control and a dev issue. 

 

Your point about macros actually wraps that up nicely. Fact is, you're being more honest than a few people on here. You don't police macros because you can't. There's this argument that gets parroted sometimes on here that people are fine with exploits as long as everyone has access to them. But that's not true at all. Fact is alot more people have access to a hacked lobby than a PC and the (limited) technical know-how to run a macro. Or the financial access to a decent turbo controller. 

 

I don't think you should, nor do I have a problem with them, but you could enforce guides and forum posts to not include mention of macros/scripts etc. But you don't, so I'm going to conclude that they're allowed (and IMO they should be.) Why are the allowed though? Well as you just pointed out, there's no way to police them. It could have just as easily gone the other way and those in charge censor any discussion on them. 

 

My complaint is the attitudes of some (not you, at least not from what I can see in our discussion so far.) Some things are wrong because you can police them, while others aren't because you can't. IMO, it's unfair to blame hacked lobbies on players doing something far more natural than other trophy hunting methods - playing a game online. 

 

As you pointed out above, there are calculated reasons why they aren't allowed on the leaderboard, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's completely just. But it's the best you can do right? 

 

I wouldn't have issue with someone saying, it's a crappy situation and a flawed system, but it's the best we got for now. 

 

I do have an issue with people acting like pompous jerks and blaming players for playing a game. 

 

That said, I've gone far too long without sleep so I'm going to head off to bed now. I do appreciate the conversation wjth yourself and spaz as well as others who offered insights. ?

[charxsetsuna]

7 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

How is removing trophies from someone's record -that they didn't actually earn- either thru a whitelist or flag, actually "punishment?" Truly legit gamers won't be at any risk of losing a leaderboard status on the two games this can happen with since removal requires three flags.

 

Everyone wants to talk about how unfair it is to all these players, but what about being fair to the players who actually earned it?  The 100% rarity is 0.2% and if every flagged player was restored, not only would the "fastest player" be illegitimate, the rarity would jump to over 6%. Doing nothing essentially takes their ability to display a remarkable achievement. 

 

Some of the other things you mentioned, like macros, how is that supposed to be monitored?

 

Because people who see a H on other peoples profiles will assume the worst about the person. Dont say they dont, they do.

[arcanehornet_]

7 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

How is removing trophies from someone's record -that they didn't actually earn- either thru a whitelist or flag, actually "punishment?" Truly legit gamers won't be at any risk of losing a leaderboard status on the two games this can happen with since removal requires three flags.

 

Everyone wants to talk about how unfair it is to all these players, but what about being fair to the players who actually earned it?  The 100% rarity is 0.2% and if every flagged player was restored, not only would the "fastest player" be illegitimate, the rarity would jump to over 6%. Doing nothing essentially takes their ability to display a remarkable achievement. 

 

Some of the other things you mentioned, like macros, how is that supposed to be monitored?

 

Hahahahahahaha bro are you actually serious? "Remarkable achievement"? This trophy was super easy when it was obtainable. And really, you care more about rarity than the players on the site? 

[DaivRules]

1 hour ago, charxsetsuna said:

Because people who see a H on other peoples profiles will assume the worst about the person. Dont say they dont, they do.

 

But what actual implication does that have one someone's leaderboard position? It's not a popularity contest.

[TheLakota]

13 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

But what actual implication does that have one someone's leaderboard position? It's not a popularity contest.

 

Don't have a dog in this fight anymore, but to be fair that's not what I inferred from their post. Like, at all. 

[DaivRules]

3 minutes ago, TheLakota said:

 

Don't have a dog in this fight anymore, but to be fair that's not what I inferred from their post. Like, at all. 

 

They were saying the blue H is a punishment because people will think "the worst about the person." Since all of this involves around people staying on leaderboards, I'm asking what actual leaderboard punishment there actually is.

 

If it was meant in a different way, I'm curious what that is.

[TheLakota]

1 minute ago, DaivRules said:

 

They were saying the blue H is a punishment because people will think "the worst about the person." Since all of this involves around people staying on leaderboards, I'm asking what actual leaderboard punishment there actually is.

 

If it was meant in a different way, I'm curious what that is.

 

I think you inferred -- incorrectly, I feel -- with regard to the intent of their post. 

 

I took it as them saying the 'H' tag adds further venom to an already toxic community of people -- generally speaking -- who take pride in the number of rare platinums they have and mock those who fall short of their glory. 

 

It just serves as a means to feed into this environment wherein people suspect impropriety and assume the worst in their fellow gamer.

 

@charxsetsuna is welcome to correct me if I'm off base, though. 

[DaivRules]

1 minute ago, TheLakota said:

 

I think you inferred -- incorrectly, I feel -- with regard to the intent of their post. 

 

I took it as them saying the 'H' tag adds further venom to an already toxic community of people -- generally speaking -- who take pride in the number of rare platinums they have and mock those who fall short of their glory. 

 

It just serves as a means to feed into this environment wherein people suspect impropriety and assume the worst in their fellow gamer.

 

@charxsetsuna is welcome to correct me if I'm off base, though. 

 

If that's the case, hidden trophies are just another thing that those toxic people who assume the worst in people whenever they see the H are going to use regardless. Catering to that crowd is sending the wrong message. Calling them out on their asinine assumptions or ignoring their blatant ignorance are probably the better options.

 

If the leaderboard represents a population of participants that have competed using the same measurements then things are going to be sticky when some of those measurements aren't used consistently. The whitelist idea can possibly have an alternative to the H, but that's just what exists current day. 

[charxsetsuna]

58 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

They were saying the blue H is a punishment because people will think "the worst about the person." Since all of this involves around people staying on leaderboards, I'm asking what actual leaderboard punishment there actually is.

 

If it was meant in a different way, I'm curious what that is.

"You may be on the leaderboard but you have hidden trophies so I dont trust your list is valid"

Not everyone thinks that way but to say no one thinks that way is just plan wrong.

Edited April 27, 2020 by charxsetsuna

[DaivRules]

52 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

"You may be on the leaderboard but you have hidden trophies so I dont trust your list is valid"

Not everyone thinks that way but to say no one thinks that way is just plan wrong.

 

Cool, flag the stuff that can be seen that is wrong or it's valid. People who think that way are illogical and not worth putting effort toward. Accommodating that level of ignorance is a waste of time and energy. I haven't seen anyone say no one thinks that way, just that thinking that way isn't very smart.

[B1rvine]

4 hours ago, StylerX01 said:

"Remarkable achievement"?

 

I'm talking about the 100% in general, not a specific trophy, and that the majority of people (by a WIDE margin) who have the 100% are due to cheated trophies. Not many people truly have 100 percent, ratio-wise.

 

And yes, I care about the people, and hear both sides of the argument from them. @Joker-Kun890 said it perfectly. "It's not fair to anyone, but this is what we've got." The people who truly earned these trophies it's not fair for, since they are affected in ways they care about. The people who get their trophies hacked, isn't fair to them either (for a different reason). I still don't think having to remove trophies that weren't earned should be viewed as punishment. They're still on the leaderboards. Literally like one or two game(s) is taken away, where the majority of trophies are ones they didn't actually earn.

 

So when you have a system that's not fair to anyone, that you can't change, the best policy is trying to go by legitimacy.

 

4 hours ago, charxsetsuna said:

Because people who see a H on other peoples profiles will assume the worst about the person. Dont say they dont, they do.

 

Well, thats on them, not the people with with the "H."

 

 

[BrgersNZ]

So if u hide this game on psn after getting the "leagues" u won't get a flag or warning? Sounds fair? Dunno thou sessions arnt entirely fair to some?