Should Big Leagues be a flaggable trophy?

[Starcade_Legend]

2 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

@CriesOfFurya I was just throwing things out there as an example. If it were up to me, I'd either flag everyone for Red Dead or remove Black Ops II (Big Leagues) and GTA (RLTW) from leaderboards all together and be done with the matter. It's a good thing I have no say in the matter.

Without thinking of specific games, really try to consider objective conditions that shouldn't change over time and make a list of conditions that makes sense. Not just to get one game qualified, but conditions that would make any game with the same conditions also qualify. Those are the conditions that need to be discussed, not the "people would really like this lifted" argument, that's just an emotional appeal.

 

Just keep in mind, you're still advocating for people to use CFW to create these mod menus to unlock other people's trophies so as long as you're saying mod menus are okay, you're saying it's okay for CFW to unlock trophies.

I agree with everything you’ve stated here, except that last paragraph.

 

I think what people want is some leeway for just playing a game normally.  If there is not a ‘whitelist’ for someone entering theater mode on BLOPS2, then maybe...a full blown pass is in order.  Yes, that does leave the door open for other excuses of CFW, but if the possibility of this occurs normally, then...I’m inclined to give a pass.

 

But I do agree about a transparent decision across the board on this topic, one way or another...?

[AJ_-_808]

1 minute ago, DaivRules said:

@CriesOfFurya I was just throwing things out there as an example. If it were up to me, I'd either flag everyone for Red Dead or remove Black Ops II (Big Leagues) and GTA (RLTW) from leaderboards all together and be done with the matter. It's a good thing I have no say in the matter.

Without thinking of specific games, really try to consider objective conditions that shouldn't change over time and make a list of conditions that makes sense. Not just to get one game qualified, but conditions that would make any game with the same conditions also qualify. Those are the conditions that need to be discussed, not the "people would really like this lifted" argument, that's just an emotional appeal.

 

Just keep in mind, you're still advocating for people to use CFW to create these mod menus to unlock other people's trophies so as long as you're saying mod menus are okay, you're saying it's okay for CFW to unlock trophies.

My opinion on points all of qualification: it should resemble a "normal" trophy list as much as possible.

 

This means no unnatural instant pop trophies, so in most cases, it would only be excused for a single trophy before the platinum. 

No trophies after server down, announced or not, unless a p2p or private server ala demons' souls is in play.  This reeks too much of cfw and timestamp editing.

Anything that still requires you to perform the trophy actions (kill so and so with modded weapons in borderlands or shoot corpse in rdr for xp) is ok.  Even it isnt "normal" play, this area should be given wide leeway, especially since it's near impossible to track/prove without the person confessing it.

No CFW on your console. CFW on someone else's machine that can affect yours through a lobby or normal play is ok, even if you purposely seek them out. Realistically, anyone still has a decent chance to run into the cfw people during normal play anyway.

 

For example, if you hop into a hacked lobby and pop big league as your last trophy, it's ok. If you pop big league and another unrelated trophy at the same time, not ok.

 

I think this is the middle ground that would be enough to satisfy certain people/games, but also not upset the leaderboards.

[DaivRules]

16 minutes ago, talespagni said:

It'd be interesting if other mods could say something in the matter, too.

 

The mods don't really have any authority on the matter. I'm just curious from a justification/logical standpoint.

 

It would be the Cheater Removers who make the call on what would qualify and up to Sly to possibly implement a whitelist function to the leaderboards/flagging system

[Bumperklever]

55 minutes ago, BRKs_Eagle said:

My personal opinion about general topics that have been discussed in this thread:

 

Whitelisting for when a hacker autopops your trophies in online lobbies - I agree, as, in my opinion, it's not fair to be punished (even if it's not a major punishment) because of someone else, and, while there are methods to circumvent this, they are convoluted and not widely known. I know this would give an opportunity for hackers to pop trophies for themselves and then claim someone popped their trophies for them, but, in this case, it's the lesser of two evils, as there are much more people who were actually playing legit that had the misfortune of having this happen to them than hackers wanting to take advantage of the situation.

 

Using a mod menu to pop Big Leagues - I disagree, as I think that, if a trophy is unobtainable, it's unobtainable and that's it. It doesn't matter if it was easy or hard in the past, if it took 30 minutes or 30 hours, if the developers took care of the servers or not, or whatever other factor could be taken into consideration, it's still not supposed to be unlocked through normal means.

 

So it is fine for me to ' accidentally' pop 69 trophies within seconds via mod menu, but not big leagues since that is unobtainable at the base?

 

3 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

The mods don't really have any authority on the matter. I'm just curious from a justification/logical standpoint.

 

It would be the Cheater Removers who make the call on what would qualify and up to Sly to possibly implement a whitelist function to the leaderboards/flagging system

 

I wonder where the CRT team even are in this discussion. This is like that time at work were people randomly rant about a certain decision, but when the boss isn't there the ranting will just continue and continue.. and continue...  Hence the CRT should in the end say a statement or solutions and the sooner the better. Though I can understand why they are not mixing into the discussion.

[DaivRules]

2 minutes ago, Bumperklever said:

I wonder where the CRT team even are in this discussion. This is like that time at work were people randomly rant about a certain decision, but when the boss isn't there the ranting will just continue and continue.. and continue...  Hence the CRT should in the end say a statement or solutions and the sooner the better. Though I can understand why they are not mixing into the discussion.

 

I'm fairly certain they've commented their stance both in this thread as well as the Whitelist suggestion thread.

[Eagle]

4 minutes ago, Bumperklever said:

So, it is fine for me to 'accidentally' pop 69 trophies within seconds via mod menu, but not Big Leagues since that is unobtainable at the base?

 

I think you missed my point here. No, popping all the trophies via mod menu is not fine (at least in my opinion), but the thing is: it's indistinguishable from simply having someone unlock it for you without your consent while playing online, which should not be punishable, and thus, while hackers would certainly slip under the cracks, it would be the lesser of two evils. However, if someone discovers that you used a mod menu to pop the trophies yourself or explicitly asked a hacker to do it for you, it would be flaggable as normal.

[AJ_-_808]

@DaivRules

Do you know if it is in fact the CRT who determine the leaderboard rules, or is it Sly makes the rules and they just enforce them as best as they can?

 

I know they all have personal lives and are plenty busy, this and the whitelist subject seem to be an ongoing longterm debate.  It would be helpful to have the ruling authority come in and say "these are the established rules and nothing will be changed" or "we're open to adjustments and are having internal discussions. Here's where we're at..."

[DaivRules]

1 minute ago, AJ_-_808 said:

Do you know if it is in fact the CRT who determine the leaderboard rules, or is it Sly makes the rules and they just enforce them as best as they can?

 

I do not know who is the ultimate decision-maker or the process (if there is one) to discuss leaderboard rules/modifications.

 

I think this is a bit of chicken and egg problem. Why would Sly create a whitelist if the rules for what belongs on a whitelist haven't been more established than "B-Ops II and GTA"?

And: Why create rules for a whitelist if one isn't actually technically possible at the moment. 

 

Once of those can be worked toward by the people interested in having the conversation, so that's where I think it should start. If those conditions were hashed out and finalized, there would be more motivation to implement a whitelist through coding.

[Bumperklever]

24 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

I'm fairly certain they've commented their stance both in this thread as well as the Whitelist suggestion thread.

Looking back, they did comment in the past, but I would honestly like to see a new statement, even if it is in the same vein as the comments made before it.

People are now discussing and just getting 'annoyed' for, nothing? You can make the case that a statement would only make people madder, but I think it make people atleast happy to have a 'conclusion' to this saga. Hence communication. (got sort of ninja'd by AJ)

 

15 minutes ago, BRKs_Eagle said:

 

I think you missed my point here. No, popping all the trophies via mod menu is not fine (at least in my opinion), but the thing is: it's indistinguishable from simply having someone unlock it for you without your consent while playing online, which should not be punishable, and thus, while hackers would certainly slip under the cracks, it would be the lesser of two evils. However, if someone discovers that you used a mod menu to pop the trophies yourself or explicitly asked a hacker to do it for you, it would be flaggable as normal.

 

Nah, I get your point. But you got to straighting everyting out.

In theory, I can just join a multiplayer lobby knowing well that I can run into some hacker with a mod menu. Let him pop my trophies and when flagged I just say 'it was an accident, I didnt know and I didnt mean to. Hence the '''' in 'accidentally'. You can make a case both positive and negative, but I am on the ban side on that point.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Bumperklever

[charxsetsuna]

7 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

I do not know who is the ultimate decision-maker or the process (if there is one) to discuss leaderboard rules/modifications.

 

I think this is a bit of chicken and egg problem. Why would Sly create a whitelist if the rules for what belongs on a whitelist haven't been more established than "B-Ops II and GTA"?

And: Why create rules for a whitelist if one isn't actually technically possible at the moment. 

 

Once of those can be worked toward by the people interested in having the conversation, so that's where I think it should start. If those conditions were hashed out and finalized, there would be more motivation to implement a whitelist through coding.

Theres been like three people on this thread who have made detailed lists of proposed dos and don'ts, we could start by looking at those lists.

[DaivRules]

Just now, charxsetsuna said:

Theres been like three people on this thread who have made detailed lists of proposed dos and don'ts, we could start by looking at those lists.

 

Cool. Compile them into one post and organize them, then compare and contrast them to see if they fit an objective list of qualifications for a whitelist.

[charxsetsuna]

1 hour ago, AJ_-_808 said:

My opinion on points all of qualification: it should resemble a "normal" trophy list as much as possible.

 

This means no unnatural instant pop trophies, so in most cases, it would only be excused for a single trophy before the platinum. 

No trophies after server down, announced or not, unless a p2p or private server ala demons' souls is in play.  This reeks too much of cfw and timestamp editing.

Anything that still requires you to perform the trophy actions (kill so and so with modded weapons in borderlands or shoot corpse in rdr for xp) is ok.  Even it isnt "normal" play, this area should be given wide leeway, especially since it's near impossible to track/prove without the person confessing it.

No CFW on your console. CFW on someone else's machine that can affect yours through a lobby or normal play is ok, even if you purposely seek them out. Realistically, anyone still has a decent chance to run into the cfw people during normal play anyway.

 

For example, if you hop into a hacked lobby and pop big league as your last trophy, it's ok. If you pop big league and another unrelated trophy at the same time, not ok.

 

I think this is the middle ground that would be enough to satisfy certain people/games, but also not upset the leaderboards.

 

1 hour ago, BRKs_Eagle said:

My personal opinion about general topics that have been discussed in this thread:

 

Whitelisting for when a hacker autopops your trophies in online lobbies - I agree, as, in my opinion, it's not fair to be punished (even if it's not a major punishment) because of someone else, and, while there are methods to circumvent this, they are convoluted and not widely known. I know this would give an opportunity for hackers to pop trophies for themselves and then claim someone popped their trophies for them, but, in this case, it's the lesser of two evils, as there are much more people who were actually playing legit that had the misfortune of having this happen to them than hackers wanting to take advantage of the situation.

 

Using a mod menu to pop Big Leagues - I disagree, as I think that, if a trophy is unobtainable, it's unobtainable and that's it. It doesn't matter if it was easy or hard in the past, if it took 30 minutes or 30 hours, if the developers took care of the servers or not, or whatever other factor could be taken into consideration, it's still not supposed to be unlocked through normal means.

 

Flagging macros/scripts/RDR modded lobbies/Borderlands modded weapons - As much as I think they should be flaggable offenses, I know there's no way to detect their usage, so I wouldn't mind having it as it is now.

 

Flagging cheats/boosting/debug menus - I disagree, because it's something you don't need any external software (directly or indirectly) to do. And, in the case of boosting, you wouldn't be able to detect its usage either.

 

Having a special flag, in which trophies don't count towards score but don't need to be hidden - While I think that's a good idea, I don't know how hard that would be to implement, so wouldn't necessarily mind not having this either.

 

I will admit I have not played the game, so I'm not the best person to speak about it, but there are my ramblings to whoever wants to read them and discuss anyway.

 

13 hours ago, CriesOfFurya said:

Thank you so much for keeping an open mind for this! If I may, I would like to suggest some of those "qualifications" that I have written out:

 

 

The rules would be that this workaround can only be used to unlock the Big Leagues trophy last to pop the platinum, all other trophies must be earned normally and not popped with this workaround.

 

That way the rarity of the platinum and 100% are not dented and the work of others who earned the 100% before december 2015 is not put in a bad light as the exploit is merely used to pop a single trophy that was incredibly easy to do before it became unobtainable and took 30 minutes to do. Anyone earning the 100% with this exploit is doing literally everything as pre-2015 people did apart from that one trophy that has been neglected by an infamously greedy and uncaring publisher who actually released patches after this trophy became unobtainable and still neglected the trophy.

 

Again I must reiterate that the trick can be done by anyone without having to have a CFW console, manipulated save files or anything of the kind. In the vote for whitelisting, the community was massively in favour of it but i think people who want to do this game can understand the reservations that some people, including the cheater team had, about autopopping the entire list being allowed. This exploit is a perfect middleground when combined with the policy of "You must only use it for Big Leagues to pop the plat/100% and nothing else". That policy is really the emphasis of this to make it fair on those who already achieved 100%.

 

This could be combined with a new type of flag as discussed previously where you do not contribute to the stats for the game or the achievers list BUT you do not receive a flag for the game nor are you asked to hide it. It appears on your profile and contributes to your personal stats but not the website stats. However, I feel that this step is overboard for the reasons i've explained above, but not one to be eliminated entirely if the cheater team want further security over this issue.

 

 

I can ssure you, whitelisting this method would only make the community of this game extremely happy and there would be no harm done to anyone, if people follow those rules outlined above. 

 

6 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

I don't think you understand what I meant by qualifications and you're jumping right to how to implement. 

 

Under what conditions should this or any game qualify for a whitelist?

 

For example, the game must:

• Only have XXX number of unobtainable trophies
• The developer must not have announced the trophy becoming unobtainable before it becomes unobtainable
• The developer must have turned off some portion of online that is required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The player must still be able to complete the actions required to obtain the unobtainable trophies
• The modifications to the game that allow unobtainable trophies must not have been created or accessed by the original mod creator by using custom firmware

And so on.

 

On 07/06/2020 at 5:50 PM, CriesOfFurya said:

I think this newly re-discovered solution for this trophy has been put in a bit of a bad light here. I see this as an opportunity to get countless players here the chance to finally finish the Call of Duty game series, as every single installment, other than BO2, is still possible. I do not see this as a chance for everyone who ran into a hacker online, suddenly trying to justify unlocking half of the trophies for the game within 30seconds.

 

We just have to be very strict about what would be allowed with this new method:

1. Big Leagues needs to be the last trophy you unlock for the 100% in the game, no exceptions. Not Big Leagues and 3 other trophies at once, just Big Leagues.

2. People who joined a hacked lobby and unlocked all trophies that way, still need to delete the user before those trophies are synched and then they can try it again, until everything but Big Leagues has been unlocked regularly.

 

I do realise that this was not intended by the devs and that it's not an ideal solution for this problem, but it's definitely a justifiable one. We as a trophy hunter community have been striving to find different methods to salvage some of these unobtainable games and we have had quite the success with games like Unreal Tournament, Bulletstorm and much more. I know that in these games you can still perform all the actions actually needed to unlock he trophies, eventhough you are not playing on the "offical" servers anymore. With this game we would be indeed saving 30mins because you don't actually have to play those 5 placement matches, but that completely pales in comparison to unlocking all these other trophies in the game, which will porbably take well over 100hrs for most players.

 

We as a community have been abusing features like that for years, only difference is that they were just in-game glitches and this one is a bit more unorthodox. Examples for that:

Wolfenstein leaderboard copy, Far Cry 2 level 30 glitch, resetting games to their original 1.00 version and making things easier (like Rainbow Six for example), dev menus in the likes of Jax 2/ Conan etc and countless more exploits. This one is no different in the time saving department, even if it has a shady origin with someone that originally created this menu.

 

I think under a stricly gouverned regime this could be a great opportunity to finally get many interested players this trophy, while they still finish 99,5% of this great game normally. The same is basically already happening with the whitelisting of the Run Like the Wind trophy in GTA V (PS3) and I say that it's a more modern and less strict way of looking at making some of these unobtainable trophies possible again.

Furthermore I'm pretty sure that a majority of the plaers who already got the 100% for this game years ago, would not mind this method at all, since we still have to complete practically the whole 100%, going for a lenghty single player with some annoying challenges, prestiging once and getting some quite challenging Zombies trophies.

 

 

I mean what reason would there be to be truly against this? Everything can be done by yourself without having to use any external hardware, just owning the game and a PS3 will easily get you this trophy, if done in the correct way. I'm pretty sure that everyone who ever 100%ed this game will know, that Big Leagues is not a trophy that would stand in anyones way and I think it would deserve the same respect, as anyone who was lucky enough to get the trophy back in the days when it was still possible. If there was another way, anyone who is able to get 100% in this game, would just load up the league mode and simply play 5 matches. I mean you could even just idle them. 

 

I'm truly sorry, but you two unlocked way more trophies than just Big Leagues and the platinum at the same time. All of those are perfectly achievable and you should have left the game, backed up all your savefiles and then deleted the user. It would have taken you like 5-6hrs to do that, but you should not have synched the trophies to your account like this. I know it's a nuisance and unfair that a random did that to you, but you should have handeled it differently. 

 

These kind of situations are not the ones that we as a community want to justify with this theatre mode method. Me and others are just interested in finlly being able to get all the CoDs done and this is a golden opportunity for that.

The theater mode is up and running. This method works RIGHT NOW and it is a way to unlock Big Leagues as your last trophy... 

 

9 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

Cool. Compile them into one post and organize them, then compare and contrast them to see if they fit an objective list of qualifications for a whitelist.

Done, sorry if I missed anyone.

Edited June 8, 2020 by charxsetsuna

[CriesOfFurya]

34 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

I'm fairly certain they've commented their stance both in this thread as well as the Whitelist suggestion thread.

I think there has been a new development here that would potentialy warrant another look at it. Also what would be so wrong about making this a community poll? 

18 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

 

I do not know who is the ultimate decision-maker or the process (if there is one) to discuss leaderboard rules/modifications.

 

I think this is a bit of chicken and egg problem. Why would Sly create a whitelist if the rules for what belongs on a whitelist haven't been more established than "B-Ops II and GTA"?

And: Why create rules for a whitelist if one isn't actually technically possible at the moment. 

 

Once of those can be worked toward by the people interested in having the conversation, so that's where I think it should start. If those conditions were hashed out and finalized, there would be more motivation to implement a whitelist through coding.

So we would look into it if there were at least 5 games? Maybe 10 or at least 20? Seems a bit arbitrary. I think we should start with that as soon as there are games for it, like now with BO2 and GTA V. 

[charxsetsuna]

2 hours ago, CriesOfFurya said:

In that case I would say:

 

1. The number of unobtainable trophies is irrelevant, as long as the trophies can be unlocked in a way they could have been unlocked back when it was possible. For example:

Allowed
Just this trophy at the end of everthing else (BO2) / Run Like the wind as the last trophy (GTA V)

 

Grey Zone

Dead Island / Borderlands / Red Dead Redemption etc. - All of these have modded items that allow you to make the game severly easier and less time consuming, however they are not detectable by looking at someone's trophies and because of that they cannot be flagged. With these games you will just have to trust someone's word or not, no other way about it. 

 

Not Allowed

If someone added a mod menu to a game like Bulletstorm and now it allows you to instantly reach the highest level in the multiplayer and unlock all the kill related trophies at the same time.  You can access this menu without modding or abusing anything yourself in this scenario. What I'm saying with this is that it was not possible to unlock the trophies in such a manner when the game was still online. Like a level 5 and a level 20 trophy at the same time, without a known glitch that would have allowed this.

I know this is a made up one, but there is no case quite like this at the moment. 

 

 

 

2. It doesn't matter if this was announced or not. Some people might not have the free time to actually finish a game after it was announced to get taken down, so why should they lose out on it if another method like this was found in the future? 

 

3. Yes, I agree. The trophy has to be completely unobtainable by regular means, however it had to be possible in the past. 

 

4. No, if we are really that strict with it debug menus and glitches would be just as bad since you don't have to complete what was required for the trophy. Wolfenstein level 25 and 50 for example. However we should approach this one with common sense. Something like Big Leagues and Run like the wind don't pose any challenge difficulty wise and they are not time consuming. If a method was found with one of these mod menus to unlock something that originally took 50hrs and was quite challenging, it should not be allowed. Maybe even have the community of one of these games vote on it if it would be acceptable. 

 

5. Indeed. If the only way was to have a CFW yourself, someone else's savefile or any of the likes, it would not be allowed. It needs to be accesible by any player in the game, without any additional hardware needed. That's exactly what the theatre mode in Black Ops 2 allows you at the moment. It's actually not that much different than using community levels to unlock trophies, in games like Minecraft or LittleBigPlanet. 

 

Oh damn, I'm sorry that must have been annoying, however you do see how easy this trophy was and quick regardless of those problems right? My point was just that "normally", this trophy takes virtually no effort and I was hoping that hunters who already did this trophy would agree with me that this trophy is just such a miniscule obstacle for the 100% in BO2.

 

 

 

5 hours ago, charxsetsuna said:

It wasnt me that made the list.

 

My qualifications are this then-

1) be available without having to go out of your way to ask a hacker.

2)not installing cfw on your own console.

3)I'm not too bothered about having to do the required actions, But it helps at least.

 

[DaivRules]

1 minute ago, CriesOfFurya said:

I think there has been a new development here that would potentialy warrant another look at it. Also what would be so wrong about making this a community poll? 

 

A community poll only needs to be extremely fleshed out before just throwing it up there. It needs a well defined case to be made first so people can actually vote on what they actually understand. Kneejerk polls result in chaos.

 

2 minutes ago, CriesOfFurya said:

So we would look into it if there were at least 5 games? Maybe 10 or at least 20? Seems a bit arbitrary. I think we should start with that as soon as there are games for it, like now with BO2 and GTA V. 

 

I never made the case that it has to be any number of games. If you're Sly and you do all the admin on this website by yourself, would you spend time coding for a whitelist when no one had clearly identified what conditions qualify to be part of it. 

 

Again, it comes down to what exactly qualifies BO 2 and GTA V for this list? It should be spelled out. Like a business proposal. Except an actual business proposal, not a string of thoughts grouped together.

[charxsetsuna]

On 27/04/2020 at 10:03 PM, B1rvine said:

 

I'm talking about the 100% in general, not a specific trophy, and that the majority of people (by a WIDE margin) who have the 100% are due to cheated trophies. Not many people truly have 100 percent, ratio-wise.

 

And yes, I care about the people, and hear both sides of the argument from them. @Joker-Kun890 said it perfectly. "It's not fair to anyone, but this is what we've got." The people who truly earned these trophies it's not fair for, since they are affected in ways they care about. The people who get their trophies hacked, isn't fair to them either (for a different reason). I still don't think having to remove trophies that weren't earned should be viewed as punishment. They're still on the leaderboards. Literally like one or two game(s) is taken away, where the majority of trophies are ones they didn't actually earn.

 

So when you have a system that's not fair to anyone, that you can't change, the best policy is trying to go by legitimacy.

 

 

Well, thats on them, not the people with with the "H."

 

 

Adding in some other points of view 

On 06/06/2020 at 3:21 PM, Lord_Bane999 said:

Just because some people hack and cheat doesn't mean we need to encourage others to do it so well.

 

None of the Borderlands games are hard either, if given a hacked god weapon why not just toss it and do it legit?

 

On 06/06/2020 at 1:49 PM, DaivRules said:

Yes, all other features of the site are still available if you are removed from the leaderboards. 
 

 

You copy the menu from someone else who used CFW to first obtain the mod menu and so since anyone can do that, it should be okay? That’s a bit like saying anyone can load CFW so it should be allowed. 
 

 

There is nothing installed with the Vita region trick. It’s an email attachment that can be written out manually with the keyboard if you choose. No external data necessary. 

 

[Bumperklever]

@charxsetsuna That is not what I find compiling, comparing and contrasting

19 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

Cool. Compile them into one post and organize them, then compare and contrast them to see if they fit an objective list of qualifications for a whitelist.

 

-

10 minutes ago, CriesOfFurya said:

I think there has been a new development here that would potentialy warrant another look at it. Also what would be so wrong about making this a community poll?

 

In this stage, I am thinking of an (advisable) referendum of the rules. Indirectly causing brexit if you compare it with real politics. Due to the knowledge (or a lack of) of the voters.

Let's not do that. Though if we do, I probably vote yes since I don't really care.

[AJ_-_808]

Thank you @DaivRules, you've kept this conversation/debate civil & pleasant.  The funny part is I have no interest in the leaderboards - I just feel for the people that get the shit end of the stick for playing a game with (most often) naivety with regards to hackers.

 

Forgive my own lack of knowledge here (without digging through the whitelist thread), but has anyone actually bothered to ask or get an answer from @Sly Ripper directly if a whitelist is even feasible? If it cant be added in with a reasonable amount of work, and so, wont be added, then that branch of conversation is moot, fullstop.

 

The other part is essentially looking for an exception/modification to the standing rules to be made for big leagues, under certain circumstances (last to pop), which could possibly be addressed by @MMDE and/or @B1rvine as the more publicly seen veteran CRT members.

[charxsetsuna]

4 minutes ago, AJ_-_808 said:

Thank you @DaivRules, you've kept this conversation/debate civil & pleasant.  The funny part is I have no interest in the leaderboards - I just feel for the people that get the shit end of the stick for playing a game with (most often) naivety with regards to hackers.

 

Forgive my own lack of knowledge here (without digging through the whitelist thread), but has anyone actually bothered to ask or get an answer from @Sly Ripper directly if a whitelist is even feasible? If it cant be added in with a reasonable amount of work, and so, wont be added, then that branch of conversation is moot, fullstop.

 

The other part is essentially looking for an exception/modification to the standing rules to be made for big leagues, under certain circumstances (last to pop), which could possibly be addressed by @MMDE and/or @B1rvine as the more publicly seen veteran CRT members.

I seem to remember sly did say something long ago but dont quote me on that, it could have been crt and I am remembering wrong. But it's so buried in that thread now , no one is going to be able to find it.

[acedragons]

Cant wait to pop my Blops 2 plat for #200 and see the fuss!

[Sinthoras_96]

3 hours ago, BRKs_Eagle said:

My personal opinion about general topics that have been discussed in this thread:

 

Whitelisting for when a hacker autopops your trophies in online lobbies - I agree, as, in my opinion, it's not fair to be punished (even if it's not a major punishment) because of someone else, and, while there are methods to circumvent this, they are convoluted and not widely known. I know this would give an opportunity for hackers to pop trophies for themselves and then claim someone popped their trophies for them, but, in this case, it's the lesser of two evils, as there are much more people who were actually playing legit that had the misfortune of having this happen to them than hackers wanting to take advantage of the situation.

 

Using a mod menu to pop Big Leagues - I disagree, as I think that, if a trophy is unobtainable, it's unobtainable and that's it. It doesn't matter if it was easy or hard in the past, if it took 30 minutes or 30 hours, if the developers took care of the servers or not, or whatever other factor could be taken into consideration, it's still not supposed to be unlocked through normal means.

This doesnt make any sense at all. If someone has all trophies but Big Leage and then pops it, there is no way to tell if they joined a hack lobby or copied the menu and popped it. Also, IF you use this menu, afaik, ALL trophies will pop. You cant choose specific ones. So that would actually encourage people to just autopop everything with the menu whilst the methode @CriesOfFurya decribed would still require to earn all trophies including DLCs but Big Leage legit and put in a lot of work and time.

 

3 hours ago, BRKs_Eagle said:

Flagging macros/scripts/RDR modded lobbies/Borderlands modded weapons - As much as I think they should be flaggable offenses, I know there's no way to detect their usage, so I wouldn't mind having it as it is now.

 

GTA4 Online. If a hacker in your lobby drops millions of money on the floor  and you collect it, you will instantly reach max level and therefore pop rank 1 and rank 10 at the same time. This is getting flagged afaik.

 

RDR is probably "allowed" because you can earn rank 50 without earning any other MP trophies afaik. 

[B1rvine]

3 hours ago, DaivRules said:

I do not know who is the ultimate decision-maker or the process (if there is one) to discuss leaderboard rules/modifications.

 

Sly's the ultimate decision maker. The last time the rules changed, he took the opinions of the existing CRT team at that time, and then made a decision.

 

In my opinion, the rules are extremely weak already, and nothing should change to make the existing rules become even more CFW friendly. Right now the leaderboard is a free-for-all with everyone playing a different "trophy game", each with way too many loopholes. Pretty much the only thing people universally seem to want included in the rules that would be flaggable are "bad timestamps" which people can just easily cover up immediately by hiding their trophies / deleting their main or blank account / avoid syncing / etc with said loopholes.

 

A whitelist is acceptable, but not more.

 

It's also a challenging issue to improve leaderboard standards without alienating the user base, and/or keeping things fair for newer trophy hunter generations with anything that may be grandfathered. Trophies are "forever" unlike other sports where a reset happens in between seasons where rules may be modified.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by B1rvine

[Eagle]

11 minutes ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

This doesn't make any sense at all. If someone has all trophies but Big Leagues and then pops it, there is no way to tell if they joined a hacked lobby or copied the menu and popped it. Also, if you use this menu, AFAIK, all trophies will pop. You can't choose specific ones. So that would actually encourage people to just autopop everything with the menu, whilst the method @CriesOfFurya described would still require you to earn all trophies (including DLCs) but Big Leagues legit and put in a lot of work and time.

 

Hmm, good point. I think that, in this situation, the inverse logic to what I stated earlier about the whitelist could be used. As in: if the person managed to spend all that time hunting for trophies and never once encountered a hacker, it's highly unlikely they would find one during the last few matches as opposed to using the mod menu. A few honest people would end up being unfairly punished, true, but it would, again, be the lesser of two evils.

 

Of course, we're theorizing about how to create a perfect balance, but the thing is: some people are gonna get screwed, no matter what. CRT will probably have to either whitelist the whole thing or keep it as it is now (which is more convenient), as to avoid loopholes or anything of the sort, and accept the backlash from half of the people.

[charxsetsuna]

Honestly all I want from this topic is consistency with all games . At the moment some games that have this situation are just ignored and not flagged while others are flagged.

My personal opinion has always been, flag them all or flag none of them. Consistency is my only real concern.

[Potent_Delusions]

5 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Honestly all I want from this topic is consistency with all games . At the moment some games that have this situation are just ignored and not flagged while others are flagged.

My personal opinion has always been, flag them all or flag none of them. Consistency is my only real concern.

 

You can't have consistency with all games. The RDR exploits were publically recommended on this website in the trophy guides and on the forums for years. To now go back and make that retroactively an offense would be nothing short of ludicrous and utterly unfair. 

 

It may be possible to make guidelines for future games but the ones for this game have been outlined. A whitelisting with a new kind of flag would be optimal; it satisfies everyone pretty much. You get the game on your profile and complete the COD series but you don't affect the stats on the site. This would be a great solution to help people who want to do the game and consider the situation unfair and also for those who have been flagged (perhaps unfairly in the eyes of many) who do not know about psnprofiles, who don't expect to have to delete their user every time they play the online for a game in one of the most popular gaming series of all time, or people who believe that it shouldn't be flagged in the first place as it's out of your control.