Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[Crispy_Oglop]

21 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Oh, is it? Why don't you tell us whats obvious shuffleware because I think people will have a different opinion on that.

Yes, it is very clear. If you aren't capable of differentiating clear cut examples, then that's a 'you' problem. Don't forget to read the rest of my post too  You seem to have missed the part where I address a solution to the borderline cases.

[Sparklebun1996]

The jumping games and breakthrough definitely. Others are a bit murky.

[Thrillhelm]

Just now, Crispy_Oglop said:

Yes, it is very clear. If you aren't capable of differentiating clear cut examples, then that's a 'you' problem. Don't forget to read the rest of my post too  You seem to have missed the part where I address a solution to the borderline cases.

 

So you say it's clear but there's borderline cases? So it's not clear. I guess it's about checking how deep the water goes, how much points can be taken away so somebody can have his personal "plain field".

[majob]

1 minute ago, Sparklebun1996 said:

The jumping games and breakthrough definitely. Others are a bit murky.

Stroke games, Journey games, Break Time game, Jump games. Not to mention you can just filter the company that makes them because I doubt they'll make anything resembling a game anytime soon

[Crispy_Oglop]

Just now, Thrillhelm said:

 

So you say it's clear but there's borderline cases? So it's not clear. I guess it's about checking how deep the water goes, how much points can be taken away so somebody can have his personal "plain field".

Again, read my post. It's clear this is a sensitive topic for you, take a breath. I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.

 

 

[Sparklebun1996]

55 minutes ago, Sikutai said:

I agree, just games under 20 % Rarity should count, everything above is Shovelware. Autopops, Stacks, Story Games without Fighting and Visual Novels shouldn't count either.

I guess things like What remains of edith finch aren't games by this definition.

[TheBusToYoker]

6 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Well you started the thread, I responded, you stat-shamed, I responded. And now you up the antes with further ad hominem.

 

 

 

I'm failing to see how exactly I stat shamed you, but sorry if you felt that way. Was not my intention.

 

Are you going to contribute something of substance now why you are aganist this? Or just continue finding something about myself you are personally against?

 

I'm not the subject of this thread sir.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy

[ThatDrunkGuy]

If I can hold a cold beer in one hand, and get a platinum with the other before finishing said beer...it's shovelware. 

[Mr_Stkrdknmiblz]

While I think these games are dogshit and have no value,  Sony says they do by letting them have trophies attached. Therefore I feel like it’s a case of “tough shit”, unfortunately.  

[MoneyShotxox]

9 minutes ago, mrmivo said:

 

It is true that ultimately it is Sony who could, and in my view: should, address this issue, but so far they have not visibly acknowledged the matter and it is unknown whether or not it is even on their radar. If we knew that it was on their laundry list, leaning back and waiting for them to get around to improving the situation would be a feasible approach. But for all we know Sony may not consider this an issue at all, and so it is reasonable that the community is looking into ways to mitigate and lessen the negative impact that these one-minute-platinum "games" have on sites like PSNP.

 

I'd prefer an automated system that is based on rarity, removing the need to manually categorize and filter games, but if the choice is between "doing nothing" or these exploitative cash grabs yielding zero value for leaderboard calculations, I feel the second approach is preferable as a stopgap. 

See the problem is once you start making changes to the original leaderboards, then everyone is going to want something changed and it is a very slippery slope. 
Im all for adding a new type of leaderboard but the original one should stay as is.

Then make a poles/discussion on ideas and what people would want with a custom leaderboard.

 

[LucasDiasC]

Yes, just make every single shovelware worth 0 points and we're golden. Anyone who seriously wants to climb the leaderboards currently has to play every single one of them, so in that sense they are already worth nothing and just acting like an entry pass to start having a chance on competing.

Edited October 21, 2022 by LucasDiasC

[mrmivo]

4 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

So dividing a community any further is healthy then?

 

But would it actually divide the community "any further"? The community already is divided on this issue, and "doing nothing" will widen the gap, because the part of the community who advocates changes sees the current situation as a wound that continues to fester -- to a point where it increasingly threatens the well-being of the entire organism.

 

So in the end, the only question is which part of the divided community is going to be upset: the shovelware-buyers and developers who worry about their "investment"  and continued profit, or the community members who would like to see meaningful, effective changes. There is no solution that will please everyone, but there are solutions that are less biased and more objective (like basing points on rarity, though the details here aren't trivial).

 

The current situation, which seems to have changed a lot in recent years, isn't automatically preferable only because it is the "status quo". Many undesirable and damaging situations were the status quo until they got changed and were no longer the status quo (and rarely did this happen without opposition because not everyone is willing to consider the "greater good" over personal self-interest).

[TheBusToYoker]

8 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

 

So you say it's clear but there's borderline cases? So it's not clear. I guess it's about checking how deep the water goes, how much points can be taken away so somebody can have his personal "plain field".

 

You don't believe in having more of a 

level playing field? That you are fine with someones leaderboard position should come down to one factor and one alone? How much of their income they are willing to spend on shovelware.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy

[Thrillhelm]

Just now, Crispy_Oglop said:

Again, read my post. It's clear this is a sensitive topic for you, take a breath. I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.

 

 

You say people worry about semantics, I say this idea is so flawed from the beginning it will only cause bad blood. 

Oh I guess "someone important said it's shovelware so I guess it's shovelware" will be enough for a fair leaderboard then.

A little bit further down the road one could say the japanese visual novels fall into the same category or short indie games like DuckSouls+. Since the can of worms has been opened already other games are up to debate. To have a leaderboard with 50 percent of the games available. 

[Ashande]

I do not believe the points should be removed from the Leaderboards, as currently designed. It reeks of rigging the data to get a result more pleasing to particular groups of people, when the Leaderboard is merely doing what it is supposed to do: tally the points (which are determined by the developer, publisher and/or Sony.) That is what it always has been, and unless there is an overhaul to the board itself with a stated intent to modify the entirety of how the score and rankings are calculated, so it should remain.

 

Regardless of how “clear” the definition of shovelware may be, there will always be someone who will want to nudge that definition further in whatever direction they find favorable. There have been dozens of threads and hundreds of posts from people not content to stop with the obvious, asset-swapped, soulless garbage like Jumping Taco or Qump Jump or what have you; they want Ratalaika gone, they want EastAsiaSoft burned, oh, better nuke some of those Triple A plats from orbit, “if it’s not under 50% rarity, it doesn’t count!” Once someone - whoever it may be, and regardless of how well-intentioned they are - says “okay, this one doesn’t count,” the pressure for the next thing will increase and continue to snowball... especially when, as I suspect would happen, a given game or category of games is removed from the rankings and some of the more ardent crusaders don’t see the jump in ranking they expect to.

[Thrillhelm]

7 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

You don't believe in having more of a 

level playing field? That you are fine with someones leaderboard position should come down to one factor and one alone? How much of their income they are willing to spend on shovelware.

"It seems rather rich your accusing me of having an agenda though, when your profile shows a clear bias towards such a function not coming to fruition", your words. You also repeated that in your edited post but you missed the point there. Even without the shovelware what other trophies I have are enough to outrank you.

 

What about the income? See the current leaderboard allows users that its their decision how much they spend for their hobby and how much not. Saying shovelware is worth 0 points means someone else decides what's good for the leaderboard and what not. You decide not to buy these games? Fair enough. Now you take something away from others, and that's unfair.

 

 

Shovelware only gets you so far on the leaderboard. You still have to play games that could pass as "regular". Just platinum'd Ghostwire: Tokyo today, not sure if someone wouldn't call it shovelware too but I strongly believe it's fine  In fact, normal games make the difference.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Thrillhelm

[Crispy_Oglop]

10 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

You say people worry about semantics, I say this idea is so flawed from the beginning it will only cause bad blood. 

 

Okay, cool. Are you actually worried that this is going to cause bad blood, or are you more worried that zeroing out shovelware is going to affect your place on the leaderboards?

 

10 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Oh I guess "someone important said it's shovelware so I guess it's shovelware" will be enough for a fair leaderboard then.

 

Incorrect. As mentioned in the post you don't seem to be getting - I would say that the people in charge of the site you use along with general community input on the minority of borderline case titles will be more than enough.

 

10 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

A little bit further down the road one could say the japanese visual novels fall into the same category or short indie games like DuckSouls+.

 

Nope. Same as above. Also, as a side note - if you think that a Japanese visual novel is the same as 'Stroke the dog' or will be considered as such in the future, that is a 'you' problem, you literally need a pair of eyes to tell the difference there and everything else is baseless speculation.

 

10 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Since the can of worms has been opened already other games are up to debate. To have a leaderboard with 50 percent of the games available. 

 

It's literally not a can of worms. You are just inferring that it is or will be. There are simple and easy things to put in place to mitigate the small fraction of borderline games. You are just inflating the concerns here unnecessarily.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Crispy_Oglop

[TheBusToYoker]

2 minutes ago, Ashande said:

I do not believe the points should be removed from the Leaderboards, as currently designed. It reeks of rigging the data to get a result more pleasing to particular groups of people, when the Leaderboard is merely doing what it is supposed to do: tally the points (which are determined by the developer, publisher and/or Sony.) That is what it always has been, and unless there is an overhaul to the board itself with a stated intent to modify the entirety of how the score and rankings are calculated, so it should remain.

 

Regardless of how “clear” the definition of shovelware may be, there will always be someone who will want to nudge that definition further in whatever direction they find favorable. There have been dozens of threads and hundreds of posts from people not content to stop with the obvious, asset-swapped, soulless garbage like Jumping Taco or Qump Jump or what have you; they want Ratalaika gone, they want EastAsiaSoft burned, oh, better nuke some of those Triple A plats from orbit, “if it’s not under 50% rarity, it doesn’t count!” Once someone - whoever it may be, and regardless of how well-intentioned they are - says “okay, this one doesn’t count,” the pressure for the next thing will increase and continue to snowball... especially when, as I suspect would happen, a given game or category of games is removed from the rankings and some of the more ardent crusaders don’t see the jump in ranking they expect to.

 

I mean people who buy a lot of shovelware would never try to maintain the status quo too maintain their favourable position on the leaderboards.

[majob]

8 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

You don't believe in having more of a 

level playing field? That you are fine with someones leaderboard position should come down to one factor and one alone? How much of their income they are willing to spend on shovelware.

This is honestly a poor argument because even if shovelware didn't exist your position on the leaderboard would still depend on the amount of games you could buy at any given time. Someone with 200 games is going to have more trophies than someone with 50, no way around it

[EdinhoN]

I don't play shovelware but it would be terrible to zero those points, they are official games on PSN after all and just get ridding of them seems artificial. We just need arbitrary rarity points for a 2nd leaderboard, based on rarity. Using a well-fitted logarithmic scale, those games will value almost 0 points for that leaderboard and problem solved. Whoever wants to go for the quantity leaderboard can still play normally and whoever prefer more challenging games are also covered

[Azzmosis]

The aversion to any semblance of quality control being put in place against these games, (by some people) is mind boggling.

The argument that it's unreasonable to be added in this context, because Sony refuse to add quality control makes no sense.
Whoever is in the position to make this call at Sony is choosing not to do so either because:

They are unaware (incompetent). Very unlikely.
Or are well aware, but realise on top of costing some money to enforce/implement, will also result in a loss of revenue from said games. And lets face it, this option is reality.
The reason a small source of revenue is being chosen over quality of products is because money is more important than overall quality of products to the decision makers.
This is understandable, since loving the industry isn't required to be part of it.

And since there is no danger to the consumer from using these products, it is a choice with measurable pros and cons.

 

Accepting and also defending their choice from the view as a consumer of these products, is questionable.

 

What I can't understand is how being militantly in favour of poor quality in a hobby, when there is no personal cost involved, can even exist as an option.

 

For these shovelware titles to lose value on this website, (in terms of trophy points) would likely have an effect on these types of games not being released at such a rate, or hopefully at all in the future.

 

 

 

All that being said, having a toggle which is set to hide these games as default on the leaderboard would make most sense in my opinion. Sony has allowed them to exist, and removing the option to count them completely is overkill.

[janpham]

There is a one&only official leaderboard = The Sony Trophy Leaderboard. You can see your trophy level by starting your Playstation console or Playstation App. Nothing else matters. 

 

You want to go the unofficial direction? Do it. But then this website is worth nothing in the end. People move on to other trophy websites.

[mrmivo]

2 minutes ago, MoneyShotxox said:

See the problem is once you start making changes to the original leaderboards, then everyone is going to want something changed

 

True, but this shouldn't be what holds back improvements. Change is never painless. An unanimous decision where everyone agrees with everything isn't a realistic goal. There is too much self-interest and just normal difference in opinion for that. I read over the "rarity leaderboard" thread that started in 2017. There were numerous good ideas in there, even workable formulas that I fekt were better than what other sites use, but there were always people who nitpicked and found something wrong with everything. As a result, nothing happened in the next five years. It reminded me of politicians, decision makers, and experts spending decades arguing about climate change and possible measures to slow it, while very little actually was done -- and when steps were finally taken, it was very late already.

 

Sly and his team have plenty of experience, and in the end, it should be them making a decision. Input from the community is useful, but the community will never arrive at a consensus that works for everyone.

 

(I'm not suggesting to remove the standard leaderboard, by the way, only that an improved leaderboard should get equal and prominent exposure also.)

[Thrillhelm]

2 minutes ago, Crispy_Oglop said:

 

Okay, cool. Are you actually worried that this is going to cause bad blood, or are you more worried that zeroing out shovelware is going to affect your place on the leaderboards?

 

 

Incorrect. As mentioned in the post you don't seem to be getting - I would say that the people in charge of the site you use along with general community input on the minority of borderline case titles will be more than enough.

 

 

Nope. Same as above. Also, as a side note - if you think that a Japanese visual novel is the same as 'Stroke the dog' then again or will be considered as such, that is a 'you' problem, you literally need a pair of eyes to tell the difference there.

 

 

It's literally not a can of worms. You are just inferring that it is or will be. There are simple and easy things to put in place to mitigate the small fraction of borderline games. You are just inflating the concerns here unnecessarily.

Like I said I'd still have a good rank if games are taken away for points. 

 

The people in charge decided to go with Sony's idea and yet still we debate how it should be changed so I guess its only carved in stone when some people get what they want instead of the same thing everyone gets.

 

You say games can be up for debate. There are visual novels where from installment to platinum it takes less than 20 button presses and less than 10 minutes. What's the difference in gameplay value of such a novel and a shovelware game? Or does it get a pass because it's botj more expensive and harder to get a copy?

[TheBusToYoker]

12 minutes ago, majob said:

This is honestly a poor argument because even if shovelware didn't exist your position on the leaderboard would still depend on the amount of games you could buy at any given time. Someone with 200 games is going to have more trophies than someone with 50, no way around it

 

Well yes, but that requires an investment of time, effort and requisite skill to obtain those trophies.

 

It's not the same as buying 200 shovelware games and having 200 plats in very little time with no effort or skill involved. 

 

I don't look at a users profile on the leaderboard and have any respect for that. All I see is just stacks upon stacks of shovelware. If that makes them happy, fair enough. Doesn't however make for happy picture for myself.

 

If I view someone who has a list full of actual games with minimal shovelware. That I can appreciate and respect, and a much better visual.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy