Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[Rally-Vincent---]

1 minute ago, Dauersack said:

What a bad and inverted take. What exactly is the "selfish reason" for someone like me who does not give a crap about his leaderboard rank? I wouldn't notice if I suddenly gained or lost 1000 ranks, I am deep down in the tens of thousands anyway, so I objectively have nothing to gain from new leaderboards, or all the garbage no longer counting, yet I am in favor of it anyway to restore some shred of credibility to the whole thing, I'd say most people who are in favor of this aren't doing it for the increase in rank given that they'd still be nowhere near the top.

 

Again - this is just the latest iteration. It has been about uncommon vs UR trophies that "have to be" weighed differently because. It is not about shovelware games, it is and has always has been about some people who think the games they play have to have more impact on the leaderboard. If you don't care about the leaderboard, I'll excclude you from this, but we - I don't care about it was well - are in the minority by large.

 

I'd like to say, though, if this is about "credibility" of the leaderboard, I think you do care, at least a bit.

[Play3GianniGreed]

Subject of the topic changed but the discussion is the same. 

A rarity leader board is worthless as the current one because it will give a false response by not counting trophies for games that are excluded arbitrarily. Some people will get a couple hundred positions up, but in reality they will be at the same place in the real leader board. 

But if that is what is needed to stop the daily discussions about what is a game and what not (something that only Sony has a saying in), do it. 

But don't stop there. 

Create your own website where only the games you play counts. 

It will have the same value. 

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Play3GianniGreed

[Thrillhelm]

5 minutes ago, disaster500 said:

You'd have your exceptions that are too rare like old PS Plus games and VR games, but there are far less of those than the thousands of shovelware games with >95% platinum rarity. And as people seek out those games for easy points, they become more common and therefore worth less points.

But thats what the UR leaderboard demands, a new meta, where easy ultra-rares are looked down upon because someone will always be unhappy.

[Dauersack]

15 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

Again - this is just the latest iteration. It has been about uncommon vs UR trophies that "have to be" weighed differently because. It is not about shovelware games, it is and has always has been about some people who think the games they play have to have more impact on the leaderboard. If you don't care about the leaderboard, I'll excclude you from this, but we - I don't care about it was well - are in the minority by large.

I have seen very few profiles that played nothing but UR games. Most profiles have a healthy mix, with URs making up a part of their profile, but rarely the biggest part. The wish for URs to have more of an impact is tied to the basic, and natural, perception of value and reward. Achieving something hard should, in most peoples eyes, be rewarded more than achieving something easy if we are talking about a competetive environment, because why else would anyone ever even go for something hard over something easy.

Given that I am not competing I am not out for myself there, but for others who do, because sometimes you want a challenge, some stimulation for your brain, but in order to get that they'd have to sacrifice their place on the leaderboard given that the moment they play something challenging instead of 50 more ezpzs jumping food games, others will overtake them, and that just sounds like a shitty concept to me.

You said most people do it out of selfish reasons, and yet I see few people who have a good leaderboard rank with profiles that would only gain from such a change, some in favor would even lose many of their plats themselves given how much they indulged in the shovelware to stay competetive, yet they are still in favor, that should add to their credibility.

 

15 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

I'd like to say, though, if this is about "credibility" of the leaderboard, I think you do care, at least a bit.

I only care to the extend that I do not want it to be a complete joke, thats mainly out of consideration for others though. The ezpzs spammers can rank up faster than cheaters these days, and while I would not lose any sleep over cheating suddenly being allowed on the leaderboard, I would prefer if it wasn't, mostly, as already mentioned, for the sake of others who actually compete instead of myself who clearly does not. You keep commenting in these threads, you have a pretty strong stance, one could easily accuse you of also caring more than you say you do, what else would be the reason for it? To play morally superior at the expense of a few people you deemed elitists despite most of them being quite casual? I have seen a few real elitists on this site, these people ain't it by my standards.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dauersack

[Tempestad_cl]

I'm pretty sure this site is the only reason this kind of shovelware exists and if psnprofiles or we, as a community, don't do something the trend will continue. It will be nice to know the opinions of the people on top of the leaderboard, mainly consumers of this games, as it would be unfair for them giving zero points after wasting hundreds of dollars, but i know some of them will be relieved.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Tempestad_cl

[janpham]

49 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

Guys, let's chill a bit. The normal leaderboard is not going to change. If anything, there will be a new leaderboard made where they would be worthless so please don't worry about the site becoming elitist or worry about your jars of mayo. 

 

I think a better discussion here would be if you wanted the rarity leaderboard to include these at all or where the cutoff would be for that specifically.  I'd get out of the mindset that shovelware will be removed from the normal boards.

 

 

 

Better be it. The moment, the standard/main leaderboard mirroring Sony's trophy system is touched, the very moment your website is worth 50 cents. US or Euro, you can decide.

[maisie666]

7 hours ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

Now games can be marked and recognised as Shovelware. Should they now all default to a vaule of zero points as a reflection of that? 

What a strange poll.  As a normal range of responses don t appear in it, and i must affirm the rarity leaderboard idea to vote, i ll type them out.

 

1. No.  Dont care about leaderboard as far as rankings go.  First achievers, and fastest can be interesting to browse. I m happy to see Shovelware gone from the New Games area.  0 points for Inksplosion, Fuck no.

2. I voted No and dont care about any proposed Rarity Leaderboard.  It will likely not mean any more to me than the existing leaderboard.  Like manufactured DLC rarities, it ll be more of the same.  When I don t care if it exists, i m not voting for it.

3. No.  I have games at all these different rarities that i have no interest in having hidden to appear on a leaderboard.

Edited October 21, 2022 by maisie666

[disaster500]

5 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

But thats what the UR leaderboard demands, a new meta, where easy ultra-rares are looked down upon because someone will always be unhappy.

You're right, some people will never be happy. But the meta of playing easier UR games would be far less intrusive to the people just playing games they enjoy.

[Rally-Vincent---]

1 minute ago, Dauersack said:

I only care to the extend that I do not want it to be a complete joke, thats mainly out of consideration for others though. The ezpzs spammers can rank up faster than cheaters these days, and while I would not lose any sleep over cheating suddenly being allowed on the leaderboard, I would prefer if it wasn't, mostly, as already mentioned, for the sake of others who actually compete instead of my own who does not. You keep commenting in these threads, one could easily accuse you of also caring more than you say you do, what else would be the reason for it? To play morally superior at the expense of a few people you deemed elitists despite most of them being quite casual?

 

Fair enough up to the last sentence. I comment because I really dislike the mindset of the majority of those who push this horse repeatedly, as I perceive it. I may misread the intent of single users, my apologies, but the general approach to this subject I find unsettling, that's why I post in these kind of threads - to make visible that they are in the majority, but not unanonimous. And yes, if people start to tell how much better the games they play are, I call that attitude elitist, because that's how it started (with the UR vs common). Just because it now shifted temporarily to shovelware doesn't mean that the attidtude behind it changed. It's just that shovelware is a much better target and get people behind it more easily.

[TomataEighty9]

Honestly, for me, i couldn't care less  

 

I don't care about my place on the leaderboards, since i think gaming should be a matter of having fun, not chasing leaderboards. So i find my "value" of my trophies, lies more in MY valuation of them. I play games for fun, and the games i enjoy, i try to plat, or at least get as many trophies as possible. So i see my list as my gaming history, and platinums, show that i like that game particularly much. And then i also find joy in doing things i never thought i could. F.ex the 100% in GTA V. Those Doomsday trophies were a bish. But i did it. 

 

So for me, looking at other peoples trophy lists, serve mostly as inspiration. And if i see someone with some hard and rare plats, i think "damn, that's insane, well done". So i would say, if i see a profile with many ezpz games, i don't value it much, but i also don't care enough to want to change the leaderboards. Let people play what they want, and those fighting for number 1 on the leaderboards, are gonna have to do what needs to be done, to be number 1. Or stop caring  

 

Can we please have less of these topics now? 

 

The only thing spamming the forums, more than ezpz plats, are these threads..... Let's find new topics  

[Floorkiller74]

I feel there was a thread like this somewhere once that led to the development of TA.com, and in turn TT.com. Too bad that (TT) site never cared enough to give itself a chance. 

[Barry_Allen97]

 

Fuck this shit. Finally there will be the possibility of having rankings that are closer to reality.

[Ashande]

12 minutes ago, Tempestad_cl said:

I'm pretty sure this site is the only reason this kind of shovelware exists and if psnprofiles or we, as a community, don't do something the trend will continue. It will be nice to know the opinions of the people on top of the leaderboard, mainly consumers of this games, as it would be unfair for them giving zero points after wasting hundreds of dollars, but i know some of them will be relieved.

 

I disagree. If there is a hill to climb, someone will set to to climb it, and someone else will find a way - “legitimate” (though who decides what that word even means, in any given situation?) or not - to make climbing it easier, whether or not there’s a place that will pat them on the head and tell them they’re the best hill climber ever. I’ve seen plenty of people who couldn’t give a damn about the Leaderboards here - and in several instances have been yeeted off of them for other reasons - claim they do what they do because they want to be level 999 on PSN itself, or because they want to have 10,000 Platinums, or because they want to see if they can “break” the counting (similar to hitting the kill screen or rolling over the scoreboard in old arcade games.) In essence, they do it because they can… or want to see if they can.

 

This, and every leaderboard site, could shut down tomorrow, and someone out there would still be buying, playing, and platting these games. That said, do sites like this contribute to it, perhaps inspiring people who wouldn’t otherwise engage in the behavior to do so? Probably.

[TomataEighty9]

Just now, Barry_Allen97 said:

 

Fuck this shit. Finally there will be the possibility of having rankings that are closer to reality.

 

To be fair, in reality, NO ONE gives a crap about online trophies... 

 

The amount of people ACTIVELY chasing the leaderboards, is so small... 

 

Just play games man.. Do the plats YOU wanna do, and stop caring. No matter what, the people who are not number 1, will always find a way to discredit the one who is. 

 

Years back, before my name is mayo and ezpz "games", people would discredit your list, if it had "Hannah Montana" on it. People will always find a reason why THEY should be number 1, and why the system is wrong. 

 

Just enjoy gaming. Life is too short.

[Dauersack]

28 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

 

Fair enough up to the last sentence. I comment because I really dislike the mindset of the majority of those who push this horse repeatedly, as I perceive it. I may misread the intent of single users, my apologies, but the general approach to this subject I find unsettling, that's why I post in these kind of threads - to make visible that they are in the majority, but not unanonimous. And yes, if people start to tell how much better the games they play are, I call that attitude elitist, because that's how it started (with the UR vs common). Just because it now shifted temporarily to shovelware doesn't mean that the attidtude behind it changed. It's just that shovelware is a much better target and get people behind it more easily.

I agree that the act itself may look concerning to some, it is a majority gunning for something from a minority, we are always told that this is a bad thing, but if you actually analyze the two groups and whats the target, can you really make the claim that anything of value would be lost? Most in this thread are not even saying that the games they play are better and should count for much more than games they think are worse, as if comparing Super Meat Boy to The Walking Dead, what they are saying is that these most recent abominations that now get classified as shovelware manually by actual human beings to get hidden by the site, are not even games at all due to the complete lack of effort involved in their creation. To me, and many others, the take that this shovelware stuff qualifies as games is a bit dishonest, because everyone knows why they exist and why people buy them, they are opposing the very idea of any kind of achievement system, and they keep coming, you are having an argument for something very few people proposed in this thread.

 

Even if it were to be the main point of discussion, the thought process of making hard 200 hour platinums count more than easy 4 hour platinums just sounds natural to me if the goal is to create incentives to play a bit of everything instead of the most time efficient ones, both because of the time required to get it as well as the much higher difficulty involved, so I get why people want this. The reality is that it will likely never happen though, because good luck trying to invent a system that appears fair to most, let alone all the manual effort required, and someone will always be at a disadvantage anyway.

If the desire of harder and longer tasks getting rewarded more than short and easy ones to create a balanced competition that makes all kinds of games valid choices is your definition of elitist, then I wonder in how many other aspects of your life you feel constantly surrounded by elitists given that this concept gets applied in MANY fields. I will start to share your concern once we place casual games like the Telltale games on the shovelware chopping block to get awarded zero points.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dauersack

[MD_91]

I don't like what is required to be competitive on the leaderboard but if a game is available on PSN and has trophies I think it should count, any form of subjectivity should be saved for some sort of rarity leaderboard rather than messing with the current one imo

[Ashande]

12 minutes ago, Barry_Allen97 said:

 

Fuck this shit. Finally there will be the possibility of having rankings that are closer to reality.

 

At the risk of seeming argumentative, what is “reality” to you in this instance? That’s not intended as sarcasm or mockery, it’s a genuine question. Right now, the Leaderboard reflects reality; the reality being that trophies have a value, determined by their grade, which is assigned at the time the game is made, and having <x> number of trophies equates to having <x> number of points. It is not necessarily a pleasant reality, nor one that in any way encourages or reflects effort, skill, time or emotional investment, but it is purely objective.

 

Long ago, when I was an Achievement Whore instead of a Trophy Whore, I played a game called Bullet Witch for the 360. The Achievement for beating the game on the highest difficulty was worth 1 single point. I believe I heard somewhere that the developer did that on purpose, because there were a great many folks at the time who absolutely despised having a GamerScore that didn’t end in 0 (or at least 5), and they were trolling; whether that’s true or not, I can’t say. But I was one of those people, and that “imperfect” score prodded me on to the point where I finally beat the stupid thing to round out my points. I hated that Achievement with great passion, and am still unreasonably irritated that the hardest thing to do in a game that is already almost unreasonably hard is worth a paltry 1 point, when even just starting the game and passing the first level, on any difficulty, would net you 50. On a board that measures Rarity, it would surely be worth more; subjectively, I suspect most people would agree it should be worth more. But the objective reality is, it is worth 1 point. Precisely what the developer assigned it. The same applies to Pay4Plats vs Crypt of the Necrodancer.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Ashande

[Barry_Allen97]

11 minuti fa, TomataEighty9 ha detto:

 

Ad essere onesti, in realtà, a NESSUNO frega dei trofei online...

 

La quantità di persone che inseguono ATTIVAMENTE le classifiche, è così piccola...

 

Basta giocare a giocare amico... Fai i piatti che vuoi fare e smettila di preoccuparti. Non importa cosa, le persone che non sono il numero 1, troveranno sempre un modo per screditare chi lo è.

 

Anni fa, prima che il mio nome fosse mayo e ezpz "giochi", la gente screditerebbe la tua lista, se ci fosse "Hannah Montana". Le persone troveranno sempre un motivo per cui dovrebbero essere il numero 1 e perché il sistema è sbagliato.

 

Basta divertirsi a giocare. La vita è troppo breve.

 

Just because life is too short it is not good to buy the dose of crack to rise in the ranking, if you do something with the system of rankings on these sites people will be much less incentivized to buy doses to do it, that's all.

[JorgeSleep]

1 hour ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

Guys, let's chill a bit. The normal leaderboard is not going to change. If anything, there will be a new leaderboard made where they would be worthless so please don't worry about the site becoming elitist or worry about your jars of mayo. 

 

I think a better discussion here would be if you wanted the rarity leaderboard to include these at all or where the cutoff would be for that specifically.  I'd get out of the mindset that shovelware will be removed from the normal boards.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, MD_91 said:

I don't like what is required to be competitive on the leaderboard but if a game is available on PSN and has trophies I think it should count, any form of subjectivity should be saved for some sort of rarity leaderboard rather than messing with the current one imo

 

Modifying the current leaderboard is out of the question. Any comment that refers to that, only seeks to provoke and muddy the discussion.

Edited October 21, 2022 by JorgeSleep

[Rally-Vincent---]

1 minute ago, Dauersack said:

I agree that the act itself may look concerning to some, it is a majority gunning for something from a minority, we are always told that this is a bad thing, but if you actually analyze the two groups and whats the target, can you really make the claim that anything of value would be lost?

 

Let me answer this with "yes", because if a - let's call it faction - manages to change official site policy to their stance, the site changes. It will open the door for more, because it has already been done. The attempts would not stop with shovelware. The value ist not lost in the shovelware, but in how the site would change. If Sony would ban shovelware or changed policies on how trophies are handled and PSNP simply adapted it, I won't say a thing, because the trophy system is handled by Sony. But like I said, it is my believe that this is just the first stone in the water and that it roots back to the "my trophies are better than yours, somehting has to happen"-attitude.

 

We may disagree, but if nobody says anthing against it, the faction will only think that everyone agrees with them. Which I don't.

[Dauersack]

24 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

 

Let me answer this with "yes", because if a - let's call it faction - manages to change official site policy to their stance, the site changes. It will open the door for more, because it has already been done. The attempts would not stop with shovelware. The value ist not lost in the shovelware, but in how the site would change. If Sony would ban shovelware or changed policies on how trophies are handled and PSNP simply adapted it, I won't say a thing, because the trophy system is handled by Sony. But like I said, it is my believe that this is just the first stone in the water and that it roots back to the "my trophies are better than yours, somehting has to happen"-attitude.

 

We may disagree, but if nobody says anthing against it, the faction will only think that everyone agrees with them. Which I don't.

Even the shovelware button took us ages to get, we likely got it by annoying Sly with the constant flood of threads complaining about the issue. I'd say the thought of this being the first tiny step on the road to many radical changes is either naively optimistic, or unreasonably alarmist of a mindset to have depending on which side you are on. If your issue is this site having different standards than Sony, then you are a bit late to the party, as the CRT on this site bans people from the leaderboard for various things Sony deems acceptable for aquiring trophies. Different trophy sites have different standards for their leaderboards, and the majority of this site wants this shovelware gone, it still is not our call to make though.

 

With the only one who is actually able to implement changes being back among the living, I kinda get now why you feel the need to make yourself heard as the opposition of certain changes, I only disagree that now is the right time to do it given that you agree with the shovelware not being valuable enough to keep, the proper time would be when the changes you fear are specifically discussed to be implemented, and currently the main point is still the jumping food and quiz shovelware, aside from a few who talk about other stuff as a possible feature addition, so it looks a bit premature to me is all

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dauersack

[shxrpay]

6 hours ago, Sikutai said:

I agree, just games under 20 % Rarity should count, everything above is Shovelware. Autopops, Stacks, Story Games without Fighting and Visual Novels shouldn't count either.

A lot of good AAA games are far above that, and some are even common or very close to it like Spider-Man and Ghost of Tsushima. Calling everything above 20% shovelware is also just ridiculous lmao ?

[Letenko]

I want to prefice this by saying that I do not care about the leaderboard, I just want to hurt the legitimacy of these "games" as much possible. Discouraging people from supporting these excrement by any means necessary to both clean up the store and people's profiles is my goal with the "hatred crusade" I am on. There are plenty of easy, fun games out there that amount to a lot of more than Tap X for 3 min. for a plat.

 

To address some of the arguments I've seen here and in other places. Just because Sony allows them and lets them be doesn't mean PSNP has to. The argument that it's ultimately up to Sony to decide has some merit, but just look at how Sony doesn't care about CFW autopoppers, there are no PSN bans. Same thing with custom community servers to earn trophies, Sony doesn't care, PSNP does. PSNP's own rules shouldn't blindly follow what Sony does.

 

Second, the great thing about this whole shovelware function they introduced is that it's manual. Just because a certain game has a name that sounds siniliar to Jumping Food, doesn't mean it will be flagged. I know this will ultimately cost the staff time to do for sure, but it will lead to a more coherent list that has a higher chance to be accurate.

 

Thirdly, the argument that changing this will somehow lead to more negatívne changes and rules into the future is a slippery slope argument. If anything, I'd argue it has been proven to go the other way. Ratalaika started publishing games with easy trophies, no stance was taken. They started pushing out more stacks of said games, no stance was take. Literal games for trophies started being published , no stanice was taken. These games for trophies got multiple stacks and here we are.

 

The whole reason I am against these games is that I miss when the platinum count meant something and while I'm fully aware that even if everything stops right now, it still won't be like was before due to the amount of these "games" out there already. It will however stop things before they could get even worse... no idea how they could get worse than right now, but my pointstands. I'm just glad that people who I respect and have profiles they worked for did not give in to these games for the most part.

 

TL;DR, shitty trophy games bad, plz remove, thx

[DeepEyes7]

The main leaderboard will NEVER CHANGE, stop worrying about it, all the shovelware plats will count because as long as Sony recognizes it we will have to, all the people that wants to reach lvl 999 can continue doing so with ezpz plats...

 

Now, this suggestions (like making x or y trophies not count) are proposals for a new LB, and if you are making a % trophy not count is directly a rarity LB, so there is no hijacking or whatever, if you want to not count ezpz trophies/plats and you use their rarity as reference to weed them you will again fall on a rarity LB.

 

And stop talking about easy URs, it's a lame excuse, as long as people start "hunting" easy URs they will stop being URs...

 

People make it sound like the new ezpz hunters will immediately start hunting URs because there is a new LB about it, they wont do it because they don't care, they just want level and they get it easily using the ezpz games...

 

So, why people is so against about making the rarity LB? If you like PSNP as it is right now you only have to continue looking at the main LB and turn off the shovelware filter and you will always have the "normal" PSNP, you guys just dont want another LB to exist, so who is the selfish one?

 

And if you are worried because some people will look down in your account because of the rarity LB, don't worry, that people is already doing that without the rarity LB.

[Mori]

Keep the points and instead get a rarity leaderboard up and running. 

 

PSNP already looks so much better. Nullifying games wouldnt change much. 

 

Let the Top players in the leaderboards take care of that themselves.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Mori