STP Terminology: Autopop vs. Triggerpop/Savepop/Dualpop

[hore]

TL;DR:

 

I can hear you asking, "Do we really need a thread about the nuances of autopopping? It's not that deep, bro…"

 

Let me answer that question with another question: does the Ghost of Tsushima (GoT) platinum autopop?

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Kinda; everything autopops except the new Photo Mode trophy they added to the PS5 version. You can still plat it within a few seconds, though.

Just like in school, the correct answer is always the most verbose.

 

Save Transfer (ST): The mechanism or process of transferring save data between game versions.

Save Transfer Popping (STP): The process of leveraging ST to pop trophies more efficiently than redoing them from scratch.

 

PS5 has brought with it an unprecedented amount of cross-gen stacks - many of which offer ST - but there's a problem: games react idiosyncratically to ST, so it's no longer adequate to ask "does this game autopop?", because when somebody asks this question, what they really want to know is "Does this game offer any form of STP?". But the only STP-related term we know is 'autopop' - which, despite its obsolescence, is still generally understood as an 'instant platinum' - so people often answer this question with a firm "No", even if the game is a 'not-instant-but-still-much-faster-than-starting-over platinum'.

 

If we're to have any hope of efficiently communicating the nuances of STP, we must devise a terminology.

 

 

Save Transfer Implementation (STI)

As you may know, ST isn't always as simple as downloading your PS4 save from PS+ and it being automatically recognized by the PS5 version. This is just one of several STIs, and despite its simplicity, it comes with some caveats - like having to keep your old save files, and being unable to transfer from PS5 to PS4.

 

I've come up with a few archetypes to group these STIs, but first, let me introduce some terms to further explain why this is a nontrivial distinction to make, and why I care so much about this topic.

 

Server-based Save Transfer (SST): STIs that rely on a server.

• SST isn't an STI in itself, but rather a symptom of certain STIs. As a prepper who prioritizes online trophies, SST is a particularly compelling concept to me, which is why I use red to emphasize this concept throughout the thread. Even though a game may not have online trophies per se, would you really want to do the stack(s) if the SST went offline like it did for Sound Shapes? This dilemma has led me to prioritize SST games above traditional online trophies, and is an underlying reason for my interest in STP.

Bidirectional: The ability for ST to work both ways (PS4 <--> PS5).

• For those who partake in the taboo art of stacking and autopopping, the concept of bidirectionality is of paramount importance because it gives them the luxury of playing on the superior PS5 version and then autopopping the janky 30fps PS4 version.
• But bidirectionality comes at a cost - it's only possible with SST, so in this sense the two concepts are intertwined.

 

With that in mind, these are the STIs I've come up with:

1. Local: When local save data is naturally recognized by a different game version.
   • Never bidirectional.
   • PS5 didn't support this feature for the first 1-2 years, which is why you might've downloaded your Spider-Man PS4 save from PS+ and wondered why it doesn't work with the PS5 version.
   • Examples: Ghost of Tsushima, Elden Ring, BioShock
2. Proprietary: When local save data can be manually transferred to a different game version using a proprietary in-game solution, typically manifested as an upload/download option or by syncing to a third-party service account.
   • Sometimes bidirectional; third-party service accounts always are, and some upload/download implementations too.
   • Third-party service accounts have become a popular variation, like GOG (Witcher 3, Cyberpunk 2077) and Ubisoft Connect (for all Ubisoft games).
   • Some implementations do what I call a "trophy scan" - that is, they scan your PSN trophies and autopop based on those rather than your save file. This means you can upload an empty save file, and when you download it on the stack, the trophies will still autopop.
   • Examples: Crash 4, Death Stranding, Witcher 3, Far Cry 6
3. Intrinsic: When save data lives server-side and thus gets automatically synced across game versions.
   • Always bidirectional.
   • Manifestation ranges from inconsequential leaderboard functionality* to online-only games.
   • Examples: Destiny 2, Fortnite, Worms Rumble, Back 4 Blood, Battlefield 2042, Gran Turismo 7

These archetypes aren't mutually exclusive, so some games - like Callisto Protocol and Cyberpunk 2077 - have multiple STIs, both featuring Local and Proprietary STIs. On the surface it might seem redundant, but having the option of Proprietary STI often entails the luxury of bidirectionality.

Save Transfer Behavior

Games don't fit nicely into behavioral archetypes since they behave so differently from one another, which was the point of my GoT example. The solution is to instead observe behavioral archetypes through the lens of trophies, and in doing so, I've noticed 4 such archetypes:

1. Autopop: Trophies that pop automatically; no repetition required.
2. Triggerpop: Multi-action trophies that pop after performing +1 action (e.g., "Kill 100 enemies" popping after +1 kill).
3. Nonpop: Trophies whose requirement(s) must (and can) be repeated (e.g., PUBG "Kill 1,000 players").
   • These are often simple misc. trophies, but can also manifest as something like "Complete Chapter 5" in a game with chapter select.
4. Singlepop: Trophies whose requirement(s) must (but can't) be repeated.
   • In contrast to "Nonpop", an example might be "Complete Chapter 5" in a game without chapter select.
   • Workarounds include starting a fresh save, or transferring save data prior to the trophy pop. (Wreckfest, Borderlands 3)
   • "Unstackable" trophies are server-based Singlepops that cannot be earned more than once in normal circumstances. (Worms Rumble, Dreams)

This is why it's inadequate to think of games strictly in terms of 'autopop' - most games don't autopop all (if any) trophies, so we need to be more specific.

Save Transfer Strategies

Now that we understand trophy behavioral archetypes, let's associate them with actionable strategies to help convey a game's STP behavior:

1. Autopopping (Autopop): The 'act' of popping trophies by doing nothing but transferring or loading into a save file.
   • When some trophies fail to autopop, retransferring/redownloading your save file sometimes pops the rest.
2. Triggerpopping (Triggerpop): The act of popping trophies by stimulating their triggers (colloquially known as "performing one more action").
3. Savepopping (Nonpop, Singlepop): Utilizing strategic save management to pop Nonpop/Singlepop trophies without having to start a fresh playthrough or save file.
   • A basic example would be reaching a boss or the end of a level, then transferring that save to get the corresponding trophy on both stacks.
   • Witcher 3 is a ~40h plat (if you rush) with 4 stacks. With savepopping, you can plat all stacks in ~45h instead of ~160h, all while playing primarily on the superior PS5 version.
4. Dualpopping (Nonpop, Singlepop): Playing multiple stacks simultaneously to pop online trophies that would otherwise become unobtainable (unstackable) or longer after earning them once.
   • Very few people seem to realize this is possible, since PS3 and PS4 only allowed one user to be signed into PSN at a given time. But PS5 doesn't have this restriction, nor does it interfere with PS4's restriction, so the end result is that you can play a PS4 and PS5 app simultaneously.
   • Example 1: Worms Rumble has an unstackable trophy for reaching level 50, but it's possible to dualpop it.
   • Example 2: Babylon's Fall has 3 very grindy trophies for fully upgrading 3 types of gear. Dualpopping these trophies saves a significant amount of time that would otherwise need to be spent grinding more materials.

Examples:

Now, let's practice using this terminology to describe some games:
 

Spoiler

Worms Rumble

• ST Implementation: Intrinsic (online-only multiplayer game)
• ST Behavior: Most trophies can be triggerpopped, but some are Singlepops that require dualpopping and savepopping.
  • The trophy for reaching level 50 (max level) is a Singlepop and thus unstackable unless you dualpop it. Leveling up will triggerpop the other level-based trophies.
  • The trophy for spending money doesn't autopop, making it conditionally unstackable if you've already purchased everything on a single game version. I'd consider this a form of savepopping, since you need to strategically switch game versions to pop this trophy before it becomes unstackable.

Bioshock

• ST Implementation: Local
• ST Behavior: Not much is known, but most trophies can either be triggerpopped or savepopped.
• The Bioshock Collection (NA) and Bioshock 1+2 (EU) somehow share save data, but not trophies.

Callisto Protocol

• ST Implementation: Local and Proprietary (Krafton ID; bidirectional)
• ST Behavior: Collectible trophy autopops; all other trophies are Nonpops and require savepopping.
• Can plat each stack in <40m using savepopping. Requires ~20 manual saves. These saves will sync across all game versions if your Krafton ID is linked, so after the initial setup, you can savepop the other 3 stacks without any preparation.

Final Fantasy VII Remake

• ST Implementation: Proprietary (upload/download)
• ST Behavior: Platinum autopops. DLC is a different story.
• This game is a powerful showcase of Proprietary STI capabilities. There's 5 stacks: 1 PS4, 4 PS5. Problem is, your PS4 save data will only be recognized by the PS5 stack that corresponds to the same region - the other 3 PS5 stacks won't have any save data available to download, so on paper you shouldn't be able to autopop the other PS5 stacks. But because this STA performs a "trophy scan", you can upload an empty save on the other regions' PS4 apps and then download that save to autopop the respective PS5 stack.

Immortals Fenyx Rising

• ST Implementation: Proprietary (upload/download; bidirectional)
  • You can have up to 10 local manual saves, and up to 3 cloud saves at a given time.
• ST Behavior: This is an ugly one, full of Nonpop story trophies and Singlepop misc. trophies. Savepopping is required.
• The game autosaves often, so if you pop a trophy unexpectedly, you'll have an autosave from 1-2 minutes prior that you can upload to the cloud.
• To reiterate, even simple misc. trophies like "Destroy 10 Shards Clusters" should be savepopped, otherwise you'll need to start a fresh save file.
• The stack should only take ~1h of total playtime.

Witcher 3

• ST Implementation: Proprietary (GOG account; bidirectional)
  • You can have up to 8 local manual saves.
  • Once you link your GOG account, the cloud automatically stores your most recent manual save, autosave, and checkpoint (you'll probably only ever use the manual save though, and maybe autosave for rare story-related situations that prohibit manual saves).
• ST Behavior: Nothing autopops, but the cumulative trophies triggerpop (including the 50 headshots!). 'Card Collector' can be triggerpopped by buying a duplicate card. The story-/quest-related trophies will need to be savepopped to avoid a second playthrough.
• Each stack should take 1-2h of total playtime, depending on how well you manage your saves.

 

 

 

 

 

In conclusion, I'd love to see more 'savepopping guide' threads like this, and for the word "autopop" to be used more sparingly.

 

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. I enjoyed writing this more than I should've, and figured it would be amusing to see the community's reactions to it.

Edited May 16, 2023 by hore
Refined

[AJ_-_808]

But does it autopop?

 

?

[dieselmanchild]

Lol. I applaud the effort but I really don’t see the average person or guide reader caring enough to adopt this complex terminology to the point where these terms become widely recognized and find common usage among the trophy hunting community. Reading through this thread kinda made my brain hurt ngl.

[hore]

On 3/3/2023 at 4:39 PM, dieselmanchild said:

Lol. I applaud the effort but I really don’t see the average person or guide reader caring enough to adopt this complex terminology to the point where these terms become widely recognized and find common usage among the trophy hunting community. Reading through this thread kinda made my brain hurt ngl.

This terminology certainly won't go mainstream, but I do think there's a niche of stackers that may appreciate it, especially preppers and optimizers like @Optinooby who already champion concepts like 'savepopping' but brand it as "autopopping" since that's the only word people really know.

 

Either way, this is something I wanted to sort out in my mind for a while, so I'm not too bothered if my friends and I are the only ones who use these terms. I also edited the OP to be more concise and readable, so hopefully that helps any other poor souls that wander into this thread  

[MonaSaxPayne]

sorry OP

 

[F1rstinFlight]

Can you explain dualpopping in more detail using the worms rumble level 50 trophy as an example? I had no idea that was a thing. 

[Helyx]

[Optinooby]

5 hours ago, hore said:

This terminology certainly won't go mainstream, but I do think there's a niche of stackers that may appreciate it, especially preppers and optimizers like @Optinooby who already champion concepts like 'savepopping' but brand it as "autopopping" since that's the only word people really know.

 

Either way, this is something I wanted to sort out in my mind for a while, so I'm not too bothered if my friends and I are the only ones who use these terms. I also edited the OP to be more concise and readable, so hopefully that helps any other poor souls that wander into this thread  

 

Yea I guess 'Savepopping' does better describe the method when there is no autopop and so you are using strategically placed saves.

 

But I call it autopop when i do a guide on it just because its more popular and it still kinda explains it.

 

Just wanted to make a point on TW3 though about the 'Savepop' route you mentioned for it:

 

-- You can get platinum in under 20 hours on TW3 WITHOUT any form of save transferring, if your routing is refined.

 

-- But if savepopping on TW3, ideally you want a save which is right before you complete the game and also so that the Triss card from Lambert is the last card. You can then transfer that save and pop the Death March trophy and Card Collector trophy within a few minutes of each because when you respawn in Kaer Trolde castle after game completion, the Triss card is on the bed beside you!! This way you can do everything else on Easy and ignore all gwent cards, i think thats the most optimal save if you are only doing a single savepop.

 

-- Also, if doing a optimal TW3 'savepop', you could actually do it in a few hours, because although the game only lets you transfer a manual save, autosave and a quicksave, you can actually make MULTIPLE accounts on CDP site, and link them all to the same PSN account or any PSN account for that matter! So in theory you can make a manual save before a trophy, then make a new account, make a manual before another trophy, then make a 3rd account and make a manual save before another trophy etc etc, use the autosaves and quicksaves as well if you want to be optimal. Then you would have a list of all 30 accounts for example and then just switch between them on your PS5 version as an example and pop all the trophies like mad. This method would be a first though and im not sure what this site would think about it as you could also share those accounts with others so they could savepop all the trophies mega quickly as well, its quite the weird case indeed!

Edited March 8, 2023 by Optinooby

[fbdbh]

I suggest adding the following:

• Alt-pop
• Progressive pop
• Electric synth pop de whoop de pop

[hore]

10 hours ago, F1rstinFlight said:

Can you explain dualpopping in more detail using the worms rumble level 50 trophy as an example? I had no idea that was a thing. 

Of course!

Worms Rumble has been 'unstackable' since launch because the 'Level 50' trophy will only pop on one version of the game (PS4 or PS5), unless you dualpop it using the following strategy:

1. Get close enough to level 50 such that you're guaranteed to level up after another match.
2. Boot up both stacks of the game simultaneously (i.e. PS4 version on a PS4, and PS5 version on a PS5).
3. Get them both into a match. It can be the same game mode, or different modes. I don't think it's possible for them to both end up in the same match.
   • Use TDM (preferred due to better XP payout) or DM - avoid other modes, since they can end abruptly and level you up prematurely.
4. The trophy should pop for both consoles, assuming you got enough XP from each match. It doesn't matter if one console finishes its match a few minutes before/after the other.

Dualpopping won't always work for these types of trophies, but it's an option that should always be explored.

 

5 hours ago, Optinooby said:

-- You can get platinum in under 20 hours on TW3 WITHOUT any form of save transferring, if your routing is refined.

 

-- But if savepopping on TW3, ideally you want a save which is right before you complete the game and also so that the Triss card from Lambert is the last card. You can then transfer that save and pop the Death March trophy and Card Collector trophy within a few minutes of each because when you respawn in Kaer Trolde castle after game completion, the Triss card is on the bed beside you!! This way you can do everything else on Easy and ignore all gwent cards, i think thats the most optimal save if you are only doing a single savepop.

The legend himself!

Both great points, and I did see that your new walkthrough targets 20h, but I used 40h since that's what your older PST guide said and it's more impactful to sum the stacks to 160h than 80h 

 

5 hours ago, Optinooby said:

-- Also, if doing a optimal TW3 'savepop', you could actually do it in a few hours, because although the game only lets you transfer a manual save, autosave and a quicksave, you can actually make MULTIPLE accounts on CDP site, and link them all to the same PSN account or any PSN account for that matter! So in theory you can make a manual save before a trophy, then make a new account, make a manual before another trophy, then make a 3rd account and make a manual save before another trophy etc etc, use the autosaves and quicksaves as well if you want to be optimal. Then you would have a list of all 30 accounts for example and then just switch between them on your PS5 version as an example and pop all the trophies like mad. This method would be a first though and im not sure what this site would think about it as you could also share those accounts with others so they could savepop all the trophies mega quickly as well, its quite the weird case indeed!

Damn, now that's what I'm talking about!! This is the sort of insightful discussion I was hoping for! I didn't even know linking multiple accounts was possible; please share any similar developments you find for other games!

[DeepEyes7]

6 hours ago, Optinooby said:

This method would be a first though and im not sure what this site would think about it as you could also share those accounts with others so they could savepop all the trophies mega quickly as well, its quite the weird case indeed!

 

That would be interesting, and since the last discussions with the Trials Rising drama it seems that it shouldn't be flagged because the saves were done legit without using hacking methods (similar to LBP, Infamous, Minecraft and similar maps...) and you are just abussing a CDP option... Maybe they could be the ones limiting it because of this...

[Optinooby]

35 minutes ago, hore said:

Of course!

Worms Rumble has been 'unstackable' since launch because the 'Level 50' trophy will only pop on one version of the game (PS4 or PS5), unless you dualpop it using the following strategy:

1. Get close enough to level 50 such that you're guaranteed to level up after another match.
2. Boot up both stacks of the game simultaneously (i.e. PS4 version on a PS4, and PS5 version on a PS5).
3. Get them both into a match. It can be the same game mode, or different modes. I don't think it's possible for them to both end up in the same match.
   • Use TDM (preferred due to better XP payout) or DM - avoid other modes, since they can end abruptly and level you up prematurely.
4. The trophy should pop for both consoles, assuming you got enough XP from each match. It doesn't matter if one console finishes its match a few minutes before/after the other.

Dualpopping won't always work for these types of trophies, but it's an option that should always be explored.

 

The legend himself!

Both great points, and I did see that your new walkthrough targets 20h, but I used 40h since that's what your older PST guide said and it's more impactful to sum the stacks to 160h than 80h 

 

Damn, now that's what I'm talking about!! This is the sort of insightful discussion I was hoping for! I didn't even know linking multiple accounts was possible; please share any similar developments you find for other games!

 

Also to @DeepEyes7

 

More insight would be that you could share these accounts with others as you dont need to put in any personal details.

 

You could make a thread for example with 30+ CDP accounts that would pop all trophies. What the reader would have to for each one is connect to the account given, using the password provided and then pop a few trophies and then connect to the next account and so on.

 

At one point though I have had to login to my own email that the CDP email was linked to and do a sort of security check thing for CDP, but it wasnt frequent and it may just be a time sensitive thing.

 

CDP may not be pleased with account sharing like ive mentioned above which is why im not doing anything with the info. I dunno what stance PSNProfiles would take on the matter as well as CDP. Its legitimate saves, but PSNProfiles may view it as save hacking and end of the day, if you wanna use the site, u need to follow their rules

Edited March 8, 2023 by Optinooby

[hore]

5 minutes ago, Optinooby said:

 

Also to @DeepEyes7

 

More insight would be that you could share these accounts with others as you dont need to put in any personal details.

 

You could make a thread for example with 30+ CDP accounts that would pop all trophies. What the reader would have to for each one is connect to the account given, using the password provided and then pop a few trophies and then connect to the next account and so on.

Aside from the security check, my main concern with this would be someone overwriting the save, whether out of malice or foolishness, like by beating the game on Death March and then overwriting the cloud save(s)

[Optinooby]

35 minutes ago, hore said:

Aside from the security check, my main concern with this would be someone overwriting the save, whether out of malice or foolishness, like by beating the game on Death March and then overwriting the cloud save(s)

 

That could happen yea, whoever did it would have to inform players to switch their network off as soon as they download or load the save so that it doesnt get overwritten. Would require some trust and hope that nobody forgets. I dont think it would be worth the hassle anyway, even if PSNProfiles allowed it, CDP may not and it may get your proper PS account in trouble.

 

Sounds like it could be cool though :).

 

I think sharing a save that has a save with death March and Card Collector trophies would be mega helpful, and I would probably share, I just dunno how PSNprofiles will view it and i would only share if was allowed

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by Optinooby

[sepheroithisgod]

I remember when people just played games to earn trophies...

 

Seriously tho, good post as I'm sure this will help out those that are interested. I just hope these cross-gen games start to ramp down so people actually play the PS5 version instead of treating it as an auto-pop version.

[Big-Brady]

Gone are the days where people played games for fun and earned the trophies themselves heck I bet most of these people that Auto-pop or trigger pop if there was a way for them to use other peoples downloaded saves and get away with it I am sure they would do that as well its just sad really.

[MadMax707]

Wow, just wow! The way things are going the next PlayStation, the PS6, will be the ultimate trophy "autopooping" machine. 

Unlock extra trophy list stacks for previous games, shovelware and new trophy lists for remasters of remakes without playing. 

 

Sony PlayStation 6

Not for the players

For the autopoppers

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by MadMax707

[shadaik]

29 minutes ago, MadMax707 said:

Wow, just wow! The way things are going the next PlayStation, the PS6, will be the ultimate trophy "autopooping" machine. 

Unlock extra trophy list stacks for previous games, shovelware and new trophy lists for remasters of remakes without playing. 

 

Sony PlayStation 6

Not for the players

For the autopoppers

 

Thank you!

 

I can now spend the second half of my day knowing I will not read or hear anything dumber than this. How nice!

[GravityQueeen]

Very interesting post. I didn't know there could be a workaround to get the same unstackable Singlepop trophy in different game versions, that's genius, thankyou for that!

Edited November 15, 2023 by GravityQueeen

[OmegaRejectz]

STIs? Huh.

[Mina]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:03 PM, OmegaRejectz said:

STIs? Huh.

Literally thought the same. Just like STIs in the medical world, STI games have infected the trophy hunting community 🫠