The AEW Discussion Thread

[Viper]

LMAO! You sit there and tell me I have to elaborate on what "good ring work" is so that YOU know, that I know what I'm talking about? First of all...I don't need your approval on anything. News flash...you're not the authority on all things pro-wrestling here. I've seen your constant drivel of negativity you spew out of your posts here. You're 90% hate and 10% praise when AEW does something absolutely amazing. Most people here would say YOU don't know what you're talking about. 

 

But I'm not going to say that. I can clearly see you have knowledge for this business...it's just literally no one else is on your side of the fence on things you think are "issues". But you're okay with that right? I'm perfectly okay dying on the hill that John Cena and Roman Reigns are garbage in the ring. My opinion never changed on that, I didn't see some imaginary light once Cena left...my memories of what we were put through with him are still very fresh.

 

Now, do I think The Young Bucks and Lucha Bros are great in ring workers? Abso-fucking-lutely! Their match alone for the Tag Titles might be my favorite Tag match in AEW so far. But I also think the same about FTR. I like high flying as much as I do mat technicians. I like a good Powerhouse as much as I do a Submission specialist. I don't just hate on a style of wrestling...it's about how the Wrestler utilizes their style. Guys like John Cena and Roman Reigns are formulaic...they do the same shit every match, sometimes in a slightly different sequence. They're boring as hell to watch unless they had an opponent who was making them go above and beyond. And no, I'm well aware they weren't the only ones either....I've never been a Batista or Goldberg fan either. Brock Lesnar? Loved his 2002-2004 run...but post 2012 return Lesnar was insufferable at times. 

 

And nobody chose Cena to be the face of the company. Again, we were okay with him becoming WWE Champion...no one said he needed to be the next Austin. You seem to be forgetting that the only cheers that man got (after he was shoved down our throats) were from little kids who loved his merch and women who thought he was hot. Cena got boo'd out of the building more often than not. It was to the point where WWE had to start calling him "the most polarizing figure in WWE history" like it was THEIR idea for Cena to be loathed by so many people. Hell I knew kids that cheered for Cena, then grew up wondering what they were thinking. 

 

But this whole discussion is really going around in circles. I don't like John Cena...it's simple as that. You're not going to change my mind, I'm not trying to change anyone elses. And this isn't even really AEW discussion. So to get back on track here, you want to talk about what I think great in ring work is? 

Bryan Danielson vs. Eddie Kingston from Rampage Friday night. Incredible! Kingston isn't exactly someone I would usually throw into that hat, but he had probably his best match to date so far. I look forward to the promo work between him and Punk too. 

Edited October 31, 2021 by Viper

[jackmadrox]

Let's see where Windham Rotunda goes.....but it seems like it's gonna be AEW.

[skidmarkgn]

2 hours ago, Viper said:

Bryan Danielson vs. Eddie Kingston from Rampage Friday night. Incredible! Kingston isn't exactly someone I would usually throw into that hat, but he had probably his best match to date so far. I look forward to the promo work between him and Punk too. 

 

When Cody was doing his open challenges and Eddie Kingston came out I remember thinking "who's this fat turd?"  turns out that fat turd is an amazing worker who, as Simon likes to put it (can I get a golden up please), seems to forget more often than not that wrestling's not real.  Dude's got charisma for days and everything he does and says is from the heart.  It's to the point where I's put him in the same league as MJF, Hangman, Darby and Jungle Boy as guys who went from relatively nothing to future super stars in AEW. 

[Rozalia1]

3 hours ago, Viper said:

LMAO! You sit there and tell me I have to elaborate on what "good ring work" is so that YOU know, that I know what I'm talking about? First of all...I don't need your approval on anything. News flash...you're not the authority on all things pro-wrestling here. I've seen your constant drivel of negativity you spew out of your posts here. You're 90% hate and 10% praise when AEW does something absolutely amazing. Most people here would say YOU don't know what you're talking about. 

 

But I'm not going to say that. I can clearly see you have knowledge for this business...it's just literally no one else is on your side of the fence on things you think are "issues". But you're okay with that right? I'm perfectly okay dying on the hill that John Cena and Roman Reigns are garbage in the ring. My opinion never changed on that, I didn't see some imaginary light once Cena left...my memories of what we were put through with him are still very fresh.

 

Now, do I think The Young Bucks and Lucha Bros are great in ring workers? Abso-fucking-lutely! Their match alone for the Tag Titles might be my favorite Tag match in AEW so far. But I also think the same about FTR. I like high flying as much as I do mat technicians. I like a good Powerhouse as much as I do a Submission specialist. I don't just hate on a style of wrestling...it's about how the Wrestler utilizes their style. Guys like John Cena and Roman Reigns are formulaic...they do the same shit every match, sometimes in a slightly different sequence. They're boring as hell to watch unless they had an opponent who was making them go above and beyond. And no, I'm well aware they weren't the only ones either....I've never been a Batista or Goldberg fan either. Brock Lesnar? Loved his 2002-2004 run...but post 2012 return Lesnar was insufferable at times. 

 

And nobody chose Cena to be the face of the company. Again, we were okay with him becoming WWE Champion...no one said he needed to be the next Austin. You seem to be forgetting that the only cheers that man got (after he was shoved down our throats) were from little kids who loved his merch and women who thought he was hot. Cena got boo'd out of the building more often than not. It was to the point where WWE had to start calling him "the most polarizing figure in WWE history" like it was THEIR idea for Cena to be loathed by so many people. Hell I knew kids that cheered for Cena, then grew up wondering what they were thinking. 

 

But this whole discussion is really going around in circles. I don't like John Cena...it's simple as that. You're not going to change my mind, I'm not trying to change anyone elses. And this isn't even really AEW discussion. So to get back on track here, you want to talk about what I think great in ring work is? 

Bryan Danielson vs. Eddie Kingston from Rampage Friday night. Incredible! Kingston isn't exactly someone I would usually throw into that hat, but he had probably his best match to date so far. I look forward to the promo work between him and Punk too. 

 

And I admitted in the previous post that I'm someone who many would say "is out of touch" as modern fans, at least many of the vocal ones, are far more accepting of how current wrestling operates than fans of the past. Of course Professional Wrestling has also never been less popular than it is now and only keeps dropping. 

 

You come close but fail to grasp the truth. You say it is how a wrestler "utilizes their style". This is correct. You just don't realise when someone isn't utilizing their style correctly so knowing that is pointless to you. Rey Mysterio and Eddie Guerrero were luchadores just like the Lucha Brothers. I would say they were top talent, as would the vast majority of people. Why is that? Because Rey and Eddie respected Pro-Wrestling outside Mexico and modified their style, on top of being extremely talented of course. Lucha Brothers don't do that. They have no respect and do all manner of nonsense. AEW's lead announcer, the legendary Jim Ross, at times will make a comment or just shut up in their matches for a bit out of embarrassment/disgust as they commit a crime on professional wrestling with their crap, the most offensive being turning tag matches into impromptu tornado tags. Jericho, hardly the biggest wrestling purist out there considering he did a song and dance number on AEW TV for a feud, had to have a talking to the Lucha Brothers twice over what they were doing in the ring and has clearly given up at this point as the Lucha Brothers aren't going to change and Tony Khan thinks it is acceptable clearly. The Young Bucks meanwhile do know what good working is, they're just very selfish and know they can't be over if they work properly.

 

You mention "formulaic" and again you miss the truth of the matter. What are the Young Bucks/Lucha Brothers if not formulaic? They hit every move they know (hyperbole) every match with no rhyme or reason, often at the start of the show too which hurts everybody going on after them. Normally impressive big moves become less and less impressive the more they're done, especially if on a previous match on the show, or even worse, every match on the show. It is why the "suicide dive" has become an utterly worthless move when once upon a time it actually mattered. The babyface being so mad at the heel that he dives through the ropes to keep beating on the heel. Of course this is an issue among many wrestlers, especially those found in AEW/Indies. I blame the Japanese fetishism so many of them have. Japanese wrestling developed a problem of requiring bigger and bigger (and more dangerous) hard hitting moves as they devalued previous big moves with their stupid kick outs (FIGHTING SPIRIT!!!) and the issue of moves being overdone and rendered meaningless in the west grew out of that. Returning to the matter of Cena and Reigns. Cena especially has what ultimately amounts to a simple/basic moveset. Your view on that would be that he just a bad wrestler. No. A good/wise wrestler uses as simple and basic a moveset as is possible to be over with. If a headlock is enough to have people cheering like mad then that is enough. Doing this also means that when you do hit a rarely seen/big move from you on someone... it means something and people are wowed. Going to the Cena vs Khali example, people popped when Cena busted out a standing flip neckbreaker I think would be name, on the then invincible giant. Hardly an impressive move (well it would be if Khali was standing, but he was sitting down), but it gets over big time because Cena is the one doing it and he makes it mean something. Beyond that it also means if Cena isn't in the main event he doesn't kill whoever is wrestling after him on the show and they can do moves that people have not yet seen done.

 

You want to know the difference between John Cena and Cody Rhodes right now? Cena was a star and for all the numbers of haters, Cena had more fans, and as everyone is so obsessed with demos now... in two important demos. Children and Women. Pro-Wrestling used to get children and women back in the day but these days is very much something overwhelmingly watched by adult males. Cena bringing in children and women is a positive and not something that can just be mentioned as an aside. The segment of the male fans hating him didn't matter. The reason HHH mocked them that one time about them quitting watching WWE was because for all their crap about Cena they always did keep watching as Cena, again, was a star. The problem WWE had later of course was that when Cena stopped being the top guy/basically retired many did in fact realise there wasn't much point watching, especially after having to suffer through the bloody Authority for years. RAW has lost like 60% of it's audience since John Cena stopped being the man on top. Also, I would say this is a AEW discussion even if talking about Cena, as the issue taken here is on you professing Cena is a bad wrestler and guys with AEW/Indy style are good wrestlers.

 

Eddie Kingston I find a bit cringe at times with his WWE shots but he is very good yes. A shame he loses constantly. 

[Viper]

2 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

 

When Cody was doing his open challenges and Eddie Kingston came out I remember thinking "who's this fat turd?"  turns out that fat turd is an amazing worker who, as Simon likes to put it (can I get a golden up please), seems to forget more often than not that wrestling's not real.  Dude's got charisma for days and everything he does and says is from the heart.  It's to the point where I's put him in the same league as MJF, Hangman, Darby and Jungle Boy as guys who went from relatively nothing to future super stars in AEW. 

Yeah I didn't know who Eddie Kingston was before AEW...but I was pretty much an instant fan once he showed up. Also shout out to Simon Miller lol. 

[skidmarkgn]

2 hours ago, Rozalia1 said:

Of course Professional Wrestling has also never been less popular than it is now and only keeps dropping.

 

Because of my job I have a very "boots on the ground" perspective about this.  I work one on one with people and there's always a TV nearby.  Whenever I have/had wrestling on and the individual I'm working with isn't already a fan their comments are always the same, "I liked it as a kid but lost interest because it's fake".  Now that on its surface sounds like it supports a claim of modern fast paced spotfests hurting the industry because nothing looks more fake but it's actually the exact opposite, the only time people's ears perk up and they start paying attention and getting excited is when a Fenix vs. Matt Jackson style match comes on, which, when you think about it makes sense.  People's attention spans are so short now-a-days that slapping them in the face with a move-move-move-move-move kinda match is the only way to get them looking.  I'm not gonna speak for non-fans but I can 100% say that after years upon years of observing people's reactions first-hand, spotfests draw casual attention better than anything.  If I had to guess I'd say the industry's decline in popularity is 99% due the WWE's inability to build stars (some would say, and I agree, that they went out of their way to bury any potential new stars to guys from the past about a billion times too many) and put out a watchable product while simultaneously being the only main stream option.

Edited October 31, 2021 by skidmarkgn

[Rozalia1]

3 minutes ago, skidmarkgn said:

Because of my job I have a very "boots on the ground" perspective about this.  I work one on one with people and there's always a TV nearby.  Whenever I have/had wrestling on and the individual I was working with wasn't already a fan their comments are always the same, "I liked it as a kid but lost interest because it's fake".  Now that on its surface sounds like i supports a claim of modern fast paced spotfests hurting the industry because nothing looks more fake but it's actually the exact opposite, the only time people's ears perk up and they start paying attention and getting excited is when a Fenix vs. Matt Jackson style match comes on.  I'm not gonna speak for non-fans but I can 100% say that after years upon years of observing people's reactions first-hand, spotfests draw casual attention better than anything.  If I had to guess I'd say the industry's decline in popularity is 99% due the WWE's inability to build stars (some would say, and I agree, that they went out of their way to bury any potential new stars to guys from the past about a billion times too many) and put out a watchable product while simultaneously being the only main stream option.

 

Your claim on non-fans/casuals isn't wholly incorrect as spotfests can indeed wow people who don't know wrestling... but it desensitises them quickly and so they quickly lose interest and then you've likely lost them forever as wrestlers doing silly flips or whatever becomes what wrestling is in their mind. Many areas back in the territory day had areas get their interest killed because guys went out and did all manner of big moves, run ins, and other such thing when people were happy to just see basic stuff that the area hadn't seen in years as wrestling stopped existing there. It is why the territories were so heavy handed towards the "outlaw promotions", as outlaw promotions often would kill business in areas they'd operate in for everybody else. One of the reason anyway as obviously they'd rather not have competition in their fiefdoms.

 

What people want is for it to be "real". To be able to believe that two guys legitimately have issues with each other, that there is "real heat", that they mean what they're saying about the other guy. They might well be good friends in secret, but people want to believe that they hate each other. Take for example the Young Bucks and FTR. AEW could easily build a program between the two where you can believe that both teams absolutely despise each other. That the Young Bucks are insecure and trying to keep FTR down as they know FTR is better than them. That FTR hates the Young Bucks because they represent everything wrong with tag team wrestling today. Kenny Omega, MJF, others can all chime in their own pieces backing their side and making clear there is a real divide in the locker room between the more "traditional" folk and the "modern" folk. All manner of things can happen to increase the heat of the program to where people start thinking that these people have a real issue and who knows who is going to come out on top. What I've said is why "backstage" stuff is so popular these days as certain fans who might have zero interest in wrestling today still have interest in backstage goings on where X guy has an issue with Y guy and whatever else, because they see those as "real" things and so they're interested. Modern wrestling however makes no attempt to be real and so we get things like Rhodes to the Top where we get to plainly see that many faces and heels are good friends. Modern wrestlers also by and large want to be heels so they can be the "bad guy" on TV and say naughty things, but when it comes to actually being a heel to the people outside a pure wrestling context they chicken out and act just like ordinary nice guys showing themselves up to be fakes. Exceptions of course. MJF is a well known exception and may well have some people trying to "cancel" him at some point. Roman since going heel seems to do all his interviews in his heel persona when he has to talk about himself/other wrestlers. Someone like the Miz also has a heel persona to where him being a nice guy outside wrestling works, as Miz would be nice to people in television/sports/whatever as his persona is he is a fake who wants to be big time.

 

WWE is the big one in wrestling and is wrestling in most people's minds, so yes, they have a big part in the decline. Some cite the Rock as why WWE suddenly became so against building a star that could be bigger than the company, but Brock Lesnar who left on bad terms after they gave him everything is more the guy that caused that edict. Now I get being angry at Brock for basically spitting in the company's face... but they've only hurt themselves in their fear of having such a thing happen again. However, WWE may well kill casuals from becoming fans with their wretched shows... but AEW/Indies also do the same with their style of wrestling so WWE cannot solely be blamed. They just have a higher body count. 

[skidmarkgn]

54 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

What people want is for it to be "real".

 

What you believe people want is for it to be real.  I believe people just want to be entertained, and they way one person is entertained is different than another.  AEW is very good IMO at providing something for everyone, which also IMO has caused more of a rejuvenation for the industry.  There's FAR more general praise for what AEW's done and is doing than the other way around.

[Rozalia1]

15 minutes ago, skidmarkgn said:

What you believe people want is for it to be real.  I believe people just want to be entertained, and they way one person is entertained is different than another.  AEW is very good IMO at providing something for everyone, which also IMO has caused more of a rejuvenation for the industry.  There's FAR more general praise for what AEW's done and is doing than the other way around.

 

You're going after my phrasing there. What the vast majority of people want is for it to have the appearance of being real. Yes of course there are people who just want to see the funny wrestlers do loads of flips. There are people who love seeing the invisible man. There are people who legitimately like Nick Gage and other such dregs. Everything has appeal to somebody out there, but if we're talking mass appeal then nothing will beat being "real". 

 

As I said before. The business has never been less popular. It has also never been faker. I believe these things correlate to each other especially when the business was at its most real was also when it was most popular (not the Attitude Era in case you think it was that). Tony Khan I think knows all this and this was why we got all the lies that they were going to be sports based and serious... but then they weren't because you know what? Putting on a proper professional wrestling product is tough and would take time to build up due to WWE poisoning the well. So rather than try he took the easy way out and decided to do Sports Entertainment while telling his marks that it is totally real and true professional wrestling. 

[Viper]

Tony Khan simply took the NXT approach. What made NXT stand out from the main roster is that it embraced the in ring product over everything else...sure there were storylines, and promos and all that important stuff, but you were absolutely not seeing the same level of match quality on RAW and Smackdown. Then every Takeover event was a spectacle in it's own right, they felt important and 100% of the time out performed the main roster PPV that followed, there wasn't a bad Takeover event until In Your House 1 (which is where I consider NXT's downfall to start)...because it was just amazing in ring action. Triple H realized he could cater to the hardcore fan rather than the casual that didn't care in the first place. This didn't bring in 8.1 ratings and heaps of money (in fact it cost Vince money)...but it didn't matter. For 8 years NXT was the single best wrestling promotion on the planet and it came right out of the mouth of the worst. 

 

AEW caters to the knowledgeable wrestling fan. The WRESTLING matters. You appease the fans, then the casuals have a reason to pay attention. It doesn't matter how "fake" it looks, it matters whether or not the match itself was good. And as the consensus stands right now, AEW gets it right more often than not. Frankly, wrestling feeling more "fake" than ever is WWE's fault with the Reality Era. Giving you one thing on TV, then destroying Kayfabe on social media...wrestlers became actors that didn't have to keep their persona up in their free time. When you consider Heels used to get death threats and fans actually tried to stab them back in the old days because people believed they were actually the pompous assholes they portrayed, it's a far cry from seeing a heel on TV these days, turning around doing a charity event. This is why I at least admire MJF keeping up his schtick on social media...he's one of the few. 

[Rozalia1]

2 hours ago, Viper said:

Tony Khan simply took the NXT approach. What made NXT stand out from the main roster is that it embraced the in ring product over everything else...sure there were storylines, and promos and all that important stuff, but you were absolutely not seeing the same level of match quality on RAW and Smackdown. Then every Takeover event was a spectacle in it's own right, they felt important and 100% of the time out performed the main roster PPV that followed, there wasn't a bad Takeover event until In Your House 1 (which is where I consider NXT's downfall to start)...because it was just amazing in ring action. Triple H realized he could cater to the hardcore fan rather than the casual that didn't care in the first place. This didn't bring in 8.1 ratings and heaps of money (in fact it cost Vince money)...but it didn't matter. For 8 years NXT was the single best wrestling promotion on the planet and it came right out of the mouth of the worst. 

 

AEW caters to the knowledgeable wrestling fan. The WRESTLING matters. You appease the fans, then the casuals have a reason to pay attention. It doesn't matter how "fake" it looks, it matters whether or not the match itself was good. And as the consensus stands right now, AEW gets it right more often than not. Frankly, wrestling feeling more "fake" than ever is WWE's fault with the Reality Era. Giving you one thing on TV, then destroying Kayfabe on social media...wrestlers became actors that didn't have to keep their persona up in their free time. When you consider Heels used to get death threats and fans actually tried to stab them back in the old days because people believed they were actually the pompous assholes they portrayed, it's a far cry from seeing a heel on TV these days, turning around doing a charity event. This is why I at least admire MJF keeping up his schtick on social media...he's one of the few. 

 

By your, more modern definition, that comes from a time period when wrestling has never been less popular, AEW has a good in ring wrestling product. In reality the AEW in ring wrestling product is largely wretched. There were always exceptions on their shows of course as like WWE, that being Sports Entertainment, AEW is strictly a variety show so surrounded by all the crap you will get good stuff. Additionally there has been a noticeable improvement lately with all the top former WWE talent they've brought in, but who knows if they won't mess that up in favour of making Orange Cassidy champion and then bringing in the Invisible man or whatever (already bought in that disgusting Nick Gage so it can't be ruled out). 

 

NXT is not the great argument you think it is. NXT was indeed a serious product and grinded away for years with no actual real support from WWE and so was heavily capped on how much it could grow and how many people got to give it a shot. During the time Dusty was alive the show married green talent with some experienced wrestlers and was generally a joy to watch. After Dusty died HHH drove the thing fully and he, loving Indy dreck, filled the place up with Indy guys who put on "the best match ever" every night, bored many people with their Indy matches, and created a product that was ultimately completely counter to what WWE needed/wanted. Then AEW began and they were beating NXT so HHH, having no real confidence, tried to make NXT more like AEW and we saw how that worked out. The change they've made now may not be something you like but look at all the new talent we're seeing as they're not being held hostage in the Performance Centre by HHH. Bron Breakker and Odyssey Jones are two guys with the potential to be massive main event stars and there are a good number of guys they've gotten newly on the show that could certainly be fine midcard mainstays in the future.

 

I knew you'd go to this sort of argument as I've noticed it is getting popular among a certain crowd (curiously they're all in the AEW fandom), to rubbish the talk of the "Casual fan" and state that the hardcore audience is what matters. That is completely incorrect and built on a nonsense foundation to begin with as these people out there talk of attempts to get "Casual fans" as an attempt to draw in people who now and then watch randomly and that is it... when the goal of getting in casual fans is to convert them into full on fans. AEW isn't failing in doing that because casual fans are unreachable, they're failing because their product is exactly how you say, for the hardcore, and so can't convert casual fans effectively. AEW has a "young" audience in wrestling and yet the audience is still heavily aged. They're this "hot" product and yet their watchers are WWE watchers, Indy watchers (who have been getting crushed, AEW has hurt them), and a small amount of lapsed (largely WWE) fans. Whatever small number of new fans they do make cannot overtake the attrition of old fans. That attrition is why your show can't just be for the hardcores, because your hardcore audience is always falling in number for any number of reasons. The hardcore audience as we've seen, be it in WWE, NXT, ROH, so on can also be extremely disruptive once they start feeling they have the power to make demands, as AEW will learn one day when they piss the hardcores off. 

 

Speaking of ROH. Now there was a company focused on the hardcores. I wonder how they're doing. Oh, they're letting everybody go and word is want to sell up and shut down completely. If only there had been somebody who had told them that the likes of the Young Bucks and their wrestling was crap, and that what was needed was good wrestling with more mass appeal rather than just kowtowing to a small ever dwindling hardcore fanbase. If such a person existed I wonder what they'd be doing today... maybe they'd be the podcast game and have the most popular wrestling podcast by a large margin.

[Viper]

50 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

By your, more modern definition, that comes from a time period when wrestling has never been less popular, AEW has a good in ring wrestling product. In reality the AEW in ring wrestling product is largely wretched. There were always exceptions on their shows of course as like WWE, that being Sports Entertainment, AEW is strictly a variety show so surrounded by all the crap you will get good stuff. Additionally there has been a noticeable improvement lately with all the top former WWE talent they've brought in, but who knows if they won't mess that up in favour of making Orange Cassidy champion and then bringing in the Invisible man or whatever (already bought in that disgusting Nick Gage so it can't be ruled out). 

 

NXT is not the great argument you think it is. NXT was indeed a serious product and grinded away for years with no actual real support from WWE and so was heavily capped on how much it could grow and how many people got to give it a shot. During the time Dusty was alive the show married green talent with some experienced wrestlers and was generally a joy to watch. After Dusty died HHH drove the thing fully and he, loving Indy dreck, filled the place up with Indy guys who put on "the best match ever" every night, bored many people with their Indy matches, and created a product that was ultimately completely counter to what WWE needed/wanted. Then AEW began and they were beating NXT so HHH, having no real confidence, tried to make NXT more like AEW and we saw how that worked out. The change they've made now may not be something you like but look at all the new talent we're seeing as they're not being held hostage in the Performance Centre by HHH. Bron Breakker and Odyssey Jones are two guys with the potential to be massive main event stars and there are a good number of guys they've gotten newly on the show that could certainly be fine midcard mainstays in the future.

 

I knew you'd go to this sort of argument as I've noticed it is getting popular among a certain crowd (curiously they're all in the AEW fandom), to rubbish the talk of the "Casual fan" and state that the hardcore audience is what matters. That is completely incorrect and built on a nonsense foundation to begin with as these people out there talk of attempts to get "Casual fans" as an attempt to draw in people who now and then watch randomly and that is it... when the goal of getting in casual fans is to convert them into full on fans. AEW isn't failing in doing that because casual fans are unreachable, they're failing because their product is exactly how you say, for the hardcore, and so can't convert casual fans effectively. AEW has a "young" audience in wrestling and yet the audience is still heavily aged. They're this "hot" product and yet their watchers are WWE watchers, Indy watchers (who have been getting crushed, AEW has hurt them), and a small amount of lapsed (largely WWE) fans. Whatever small number of new fans they do make cannot overtake the attrition of old fans. That attrition is why your show can't just be for the hardcores, because your hardcore audience is always falling in number for any number of reasons. The hardcore audience as we've seen, be it in WWE, NXT, ROH, so on can also be extremely disruptive once they start feeling they have the power to make demands, as AEW will learn one day when they piss the hardcores off. 

 

Speaking of ROH. Now there was a company focused on the hardcores. I wonder how they're doing. Oh, they're letting everybody go and word is want to sell up and shut down completely. If only there had been somebody who had told them that the likes of the Young Bucks and their wrestling was crap, and that what was needed was good wrestling with more mass appeal rather than just kowtowing to a small ever dwindling hardcore fanbase. If such a person existed I wonder what they'd be doing today... maybe they'd be the podcast game and have the most popular wrestling podcast by a large margin.

I...I'm sorry, I can't discuss wrestling with you. I just can't. Your posts are exhausting to read, and mind numbingly negative about everything, you're just a very off putting person on this subject. You have this way about you where you seem to think if you actually enjoyed something you'd be a mindless mark, so you have to shit on it to be ahead of everyone else. Me and you are on two completely different wave lengths on our perceptions of modern wrestling. You just hate everything. and think everything is wrong, and think all the great talent is garbage...whereas I PREFER it now with AEW, or preferred NXT the way it was before. AEW is what I consider a great wrestling product, and I feel no shame for that. I spent way too many years being displeased with WWE and loyally hanging on to some kind of hope that Vince would come to his senses and improve his product and all he's done is make me realize I made the right move in jumping ship to the competition. 

 

No matter what I say...ever, you're going to have a negative retort for it and we're never going to be on the same page. AEW is like a breath of fresh air to me, I spent too long in a toxic environment and AEW just makes me happy, and you have a way of trying to bring people down. Your thing might be to argue with everyone under the sun about pro wrestling...but life is too short that shit. I highly disagree with pretty much everything you said here, and I'm just leaving it at that. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Viper

[Rozalia1]

1 hour ago, Viper said:

I...I'm sorry, I can't discuss wrestling with you. I just can't. Your posts are exhausting to read, and mind numbingly negative about everything, you're just a very off putting person on this subject. You have this way about you where you seem to think if you actually enjoyed something you'd be a mindless mark, so you have to shit on it to be ahead of everyone else. Me and you are on two completely different wave lengths on our perceptions of modern wrestling. You just hate everything. and think everything is wrong, and think all the great talent is garbage...whereas I PREFER it now with AEW, or preferred NXT the way it was before. AEW is what I consider a great wrestling product, and I feel no shame for that. I spent way too many years being displeased with WWE and loyally hanging on to some kind of hope that Vince would come to his senses and improve his product and all he's done is make me realize I made the right move in jumping ship to the competition. 

 

No matter what I say...ever, you're going to have a negative retort for it and we're never going to be on the same page. AEW is like a breath of fresh air to me, I spent too long in a toxic environment and AEW just makes me happy, and you have a way of trying to bring people down. Your thing might be to argue with everyone under the sun about pro wrestling...but life is too short that shit. I highly disagree with pretty much everything you said here, and I'm just leaving it at that. 

 

That goes both ways just so you know. It ain't exactly a nice experience to suddenly find yourself in bizarro world where things that are clearly not good and correct are being spoken as being as such, or to put it another way, to be "behind the times" as they say. There is such a thing as Toxic Positivity too which I feel is in full effect in much of the AEW fanbase. 

 

I'm going to list out for you who I consider good in AEW. I certainly do not hate everything or anywhere close considering how extensive the list is, though with AEW as bloated as it is I suppose my list is ultimately a small %. Note that guys not being on the list doesn't mean that I find them unredeemably bad or something. Guys like say... Aaron Solo are a meh rather than me thinking he is just crap. Even the Young Bucks and Lucha Brothers are guys I think could be good... I just know they'll never change for the better so I've just written them off. 

 

---

Good male talent

Bryan Danielson

Cash Wheeler

CM Punk
Darby Allin

Dax Harwood

Eddie Kingston

"Hangman" Adam Page

Malakai Black
Miro

MJF

Ortiz

Pac

Ricky Starks

Sammy Guevara

Santana

 

Good male talent that has potential if they develop correctly

Anthony Ogogo

Brian Pillman Jr.

Jungle Boy

Max Caster

Nick Comoroto

Powerhouse Hobbs

Wardlow

 

Good veterans

Christian Cage

Dustin Rhodes

 

Guys who are good if someone reins them in, not if no one does

Adam Cole

Chris Jericho

Cody Rhodes

Kenny Omega

Jon Moxley

 

Good female talent

Brandi Rhodes

Dr. Britt Baker, D.M.D.

Jade Cargill

Nyla Rose

Red Velvet

Serena Deeb

Thunder Rosa

---

Edited November 1, 2021 by Rozalia1

[Viper]

9 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

That goes both ways just so you know. It ain't exactly a nice experience to suddenly find yourself in bizarro world where things that are clearly not good and correct are being spoken as being as such, or to put it another way, to be "behind the times" as they say. There is such a thing as Toxic Positivity too which I feel is in full effect in much of the AEW fanbase. 

But this is YOU putting YOURSELF in your own box. You say AEW is "not good" or "correct", how is that possible? Most of the people who flock to AEW do so because WWE was like a prison we're getting away from after so many years of disappointment and heartbreak. WWE is "not good" or "correct"...therefore the opposite must be true. AEW is literally doing what WWE won't...therefore people find their product refreshing. 

 

I'm not trying to say AEW is perfect, they're not. If they do something wrong, I'll gladly shit all over it.  But I most definitely could NEVER agree with you that The Young Bucks or Lucha Bros. are garbage just because they like to go hog wild in a match and forget about tagging in every now and then, or because they're high flyers and it's not a style that appeals to you. But there's a difference in saying it's "wrong" and saying you don't like it. Because the latter is fine, the former is just factually incorrect. 

 

It's not toxic positivity that people are actually enjoying pro wrestling again. That we have more good to say about it every week than bad, That can't be "not good" or "wrong" when AEW has clearly found a solid foundation unlike any other company has in many years, that clearly means they're doing something right. Maybe you just need to step back and realize that THIS type of modern wrestling, just isn't your thing. 

[Rozalia1]

16 minutes ago, Viper said:

But this is YOU putting YOURSELF in your own box. You say AEW is "not good" or "correct", how is that possible? Most of the people who flock to AEW do so because WWE was like a prison we're getting away from after so many years of disappointment and heartbreak. WWE is "not good" or "correct"...therefore the opposite must be true. AEW is literally doing what WWE won't...therefore people find their product refreshing. 

 

I'm not trying to say AEW is perfect, they're not. If they do something wrong, I'll gladly shit all over it.  But I most definitely could NEVER agree with you that The Young Bucks or Lucha Bros. are garbage just because they like to go hog wild in a match and forget about tagging in every now and then, or because they're high flyers and it's not a style that appeals to you. But there's a difference in saying it's "wrong" and saying you don't like it. Because the latter is fine, the former is just factually incorrect. 

 

It's not toxic positivity that people are actually enjoying pro wrestling again. That we have more good to say about it every week than bad, That can't be "not good" or "wrong" when AEW has clearly found a solid foundation unlike any other company has in many years, that clearly means they're doing something right. Maybe you just need to step back and realize that THIS type of modern wrestling, just isn't your thing. 

 

I'm not blind to where I stand and where others do. 

 

Being the opposite of WWE, who is terrible, does not mean you are good. That is terrible logic. Besides AEW isn't even the opposite of WWE, they're firmly Sports Entertainment too. Professional Wrestling sometimes breaks out in AEW yes, but the same can be said of WWE. 

 

They just forget that tagging is a thing in a tag team match, just a minor detail. Come on now. Are you reading what you're putting down? Rules are a fundamental of professional wrestling as they present the action as being legitimate and allow heels to get heat by secretly breaking them. If you cannot do a match without ignoring the rules whenever you feel like, then you suck as a professional wrestler. Full stop. There is no argument against this, zero. Doesn't matter how many flips the Lucha Brothers or whoever can do. I mean imagine for a second such a thing in sports. Say a footballer constantly takes the ball out of play and simply continues playing like the rule doesn't matter. He'd be a bad footballer. Imagine he did illegal tackles constantly in front of the referee and so got sent off every match. It wouldn't matter how skilled he might be. He'd be a terrible footballer. 

 

It is toxic. AEW fans are heavily defensive of AEW and things that most of them know are wrong get excused while were it WWE no one would ever hear the end of it. As for myself. That list above should tell you that are people that I do like, and Professional wrestling does in fact somethings break out at times. I sometimes get negative and think that this modern rubbish is what wrestling will be in the future yes... but then I remember how heavily it has and continues to fail and I realise that it'll eventually go out of favour and they'll go back to the older and better ways to try and restore it. That or professional wrestling will just completely die... but being dead is at least better than being a joke. 

[Viper]

5 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

I'm not blind to where I stand and where others do. 

 

Being the opposite of WWE, who is terrible, does not mean you are good. That is terrible logic. Besides AEW isn't even the opposite of WWE, they're firmly Sports Entertainment too. Professional Wrestling sometimes breaks out in AEW yes, but the same can be said of WWE. 

 

They just forget that tagging is a thing in a tag team match, just a minor detail. Come on now. Are you reading what you're putting down? Rules are a fundamental of professional wrestling as they present the action as being legitimate and allow heels to get heat by secretly breaking them. If you cannot do a match without ignoring the rules whenever you feel like, then you suck as a professional wrestler. Full stop. There is no argument against this, zero. Doesn't matter how many flips the Lucha Brothers or whoever can do. I mean imagine for a second such a thing in sports. Say a footballer constantly takes the ball out of play and simply continues playing like the rule doesn't matter. He'd be a bad footballer. Imagine he did illegal tackles constantly in front of the referee and so got sent off every match. It wouldn't matter how skilled he might be. He'd be a terrible footballer. 

 

It is toxic. AEW fans are heavily defensive of AEW and things that most of them know are wrong get excused while were it WWE no one would ever hear the end of it. As for myself. That list above should tell you that are people that I do like, and Professional wrestling does in fact somethings break out at times. I sometimes get negative and think that this modern rubbish is what wrestling will be in the future yes... but then I remember how heavily it has and continues to fail and I realise that it'll eventually go out of favour and they'll go back to the older and better ways to try and restore it. That or professional wrestling will just completely die... but being dead is at least better than being a joke. 

No. Absolutely not...there is a clear and present difference between WWE's circus act of Sports Entertainment and AEW's Pro Wrestling. Professional wrestling doesn't "sometimes break out", it's literally what drives the company. Again this is nothing more than your skewed view on what is right or wrong with what YOU think Pro Wrestling should be. 

 

And the beauty of wrestling is that the rules are defined on a company by company basis. AEW just isn't all squeaky clean like WWE is...they clearly aren't worried about tags having to be made 100% of the time, so why should we worry about it? There's more to the match than that. And speaking of WWE, you only have to go back to the Attitude Era and watch how often the refs let things slide that were otherwise "rules" of a match. They aren't bad pro wrestlers just because they're doing something the company doesn't mind them doing. You're just nitpicking. 

 

We're not being defensive...we just don't care about these minor things you keep saying are "wrong". They're wrong to YOU, not anyone else. We define AEW on it's own merits...not by what WWE has defined over the last 20 years, hence opposite.

[Rozalia1]

2 minutes ago, Viper said:

No. Absolutely not...there is a clear and present difference between WWE's circus act of Sports Entertainment and AEW's Pro Wrestling. Professional wrestling doesn't "sometimes break out", it's literally what drives the company. Again this is nothing more than your skewed view on what is right or wrong with what YOU think Pro Wrestling should be. 

 

And the beauty of wrestling is that the rules are defined on a company by company basis. AEW just isn't all squeaky clean like WWE is...they clearly aren't worried about tags having to be made 100% of the time, so why should we worry about it? There's more to the match than that. And speaking of WWE, you only have to go back to the Attitude Era and watch how often the refs let things slide that were otherwise "rules" of a match. They aren't bad pro wrestlers just because they're doing something the company doesn't mind them doing. You're just nitpicking. 

 

We're not being defensive...we just don't care about these minor things you keep saying are "wrong". They're wrong to YOU, not anyone else. We define AEW on it's own merits...not by what WWE has defined over the last 20 years, hence opposite.

 

AEW has run Dark Order skits for years. AEW features and heavily promotes Orange Cassidy, a clown. AEW has featured a song and dance number between two feuding wrestlers. AEW had teleporting Matt Hardy, Matt Hardy "changing form" in an ice machine, the broken Matt stuff in general. AEW has run "cinematic" matches. This all is not even getting into the nitty gritty of what makes them more Sports Entertainment than Professional Wrestling. AEW doesn't have a completely sterile presentation like WWE does and is more... raw... so they certainly present themselves more like Professional Wrestling than Sports Entertainment you could say, but they are Sports Entertainment. 

 

Oh dear. Look... take something like the backslap tag. Such tags are traditionally not legal tags. However you could say that they are a "detail" when it comes to tags. Another, traditionally in tag matches when you tag you have 5 seconds to leave the ring, something that AEW straight up came out against right from the start and promoted wrestlers having 10 seconds instead... which they now don't even talk about (out of embarrassment) because wrestlers are clearly more than even 10 seconds in the ring. As I have said in this thread many times now to the point I now refuse to watch Lucha Brother matches. The Lucha Brothers in some matches will spend straight up a whole minute illegally in the ring. This is indefeasible because tagging out and having a period of time allowed in the ring before you must leave is a fundamental of tag team wrestling. This is not simply a detail. Now if AEW came out and stated that all tag team matches are now tornado tag then at least it'd now all be within the rules that AEW abides by. As is, as we see in other matches and even sometimes randomly and suddenly for brief moments even in Lucha Brothers matches, rules do in fact exist. 

 

??? You talk like WWE invented these things. No. These fundamentals, the rules, were invented before even Vince's grandfather got involved in Professional Wrestling. There have been additions since then yes but they've been inline with what came before. AEW's we'll just ignore tag team rules when we feel like are not inline and as I said, if they want to have tornado matches so bad then they can simply make all their tag team matches tornado tags. If AEW made all tag team matches tornado tags and all singles matches No DQ I would have nothing to complain about on the rule side of things. It'd all be a sad joke of course, but at least it'd be within their set rules. 

[Viper]

Ummm no, I specifically said "the last 20 years". YOU are the one acting like AEW is doing something wrong because they aren't doing what WWE has done.......for the last 20 years. NWA has their own rules, ECW had their own rules, WCW had their own rules. MLW, NJPW, AAA, CMLL...the rules and how they choose to invoke them is based on the company. Once again...it's just not what YOU like, so suddenly we're all wrong for not really caring. 

[Rozalia1]

17 hours ago, Viper said:

Ummm no, I specifically said "the last 20 years". YOU are the one acting like AEW is doing something wrong because they aren't doing what WWE has done.......for the last 20 years. NWA has their own rules, ECW had their own rules, WCW had their own rules. MLW, NJPW, AAA, CMLL...the rules and how they choose to invoke them is based on the company. Once again...it's just not what YOU like, so suddenly we're all wrong for not really caring. 

 

We're talking rules and you mention they have been defined by the WWE in the last 20 years? What? As I told you, the fundamentals of wrestling rules were a thing before even Vince's grandfather was in the game. WWE in no way has defined these things. Individual promotions having their own rules? Sure. Back in the day many promotions had it illegal to go to the top rope, which meant a heel could get heat by going to the top rope when the referee is distracted in some manner. However the basic rules? 3 count pin. Submissions. Count outs. Tagging in and out. Having a certain time of time where a double team can occur. These are across all promotions. You can modify them a bit of course, such as AEW making it a 10 count rather than 5... but AEW still has them as a thing... they just ignore them whenever certain bad wrestlers have matches. Let me ask you also, say a promotion decided to do away with say the 3 count pin and now to win a match a wrestler was required to do 3 consecutive uninterrupted backflips then would you call it wrestling? I doubt it, though perhaps it would be a mistake for me to think that. You see, when I talk on this matter I'm talking about Professional Wrestling. You on the other talk about what you think is Professional Wrestling, but you're talking Sports Entertainment.

 

You see the thing is, the loose following of rules in AEW, which do exist, look at whenever FTR have a match for example, the rules clearly exist then, is a sign of Sports Entertainment. In pro-wrestling the rules are followed and what happens has to be within those rules, the cheating included as it ain't cheating if a rule doesn't exist, because Professional Wrestling is a contest. In Sports Entertainment the rules can be disregarded as needed if they are unhelpful to whatever entertainment the company is putting on. Hence why for example during the last MJF vs Christ Jericho match count outs stopped mattering as Jericho and MJF brawled in the crowd, as a count out would get in the way of the entertainment. Then later, after both men re-entered the ring, it came time for the entertainment of Chris Jericho to barely beat the count at 9 and continue the match so suddenly count outs existed again. 

 

AEW is Sports Entertainment. Deal with it mate. Your WWE hate is clearly as such that you wish to deny this. AEW sees the term as toxic, at least for the fanbase they wish to cultivate so they deny that they are Sports Entertainment, however, they are, and clearly at that, Sports Entertainment. @ReazonIzTreazon @skidmarkgn @Glorious Fury What do you guys say on this as you post often in the wrestling threads. Perhaps you never considered this but I do think I've laid out the solid case of AEW being Sports Entertainment. Might AEW be closer to Professional Wrestling than WWE is? Perhaps I suppose, but, the matter here is if they are Professional Wrestling or Sports Entertainment. As I said in a previous post also, legitimate pro-wrestling does break out in AEW at times, same thing in the WWE, but we're talking the company as a whole. Now if AEW is Professional Wrestling and not Sports Entertainment I'd love to hear the explanation of how say teleporting Matt Hardy is Professional Wrestling. Tell me how a man teleports as I'd really like to patent that so I can make a lot of money off it.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Rozalia1

[Viper]

7 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

We're talking rules and you mention they have been defined by the WWE in the last 20 years? What? As I told you, the fundamentals of wrestling rules were a thing before even Vince's grandfather was in the game. WWE in no way has defined these things. Individual promotions having their own rules? Sure. Back in the day many promotions had it illegal to go to the top rope, which meant a heel could get heat by going to the top rope when the referee is distracted in some manner. However the basic rules? 3 count pin. Submissions. Count outs. Tagging in and out. Having a certain time of time where a double team can occur. These are across all promotions. You can modify them a bit of course, such as AEW making it a 10 count rather than 5... but AEW still has them as a thing... they just ignore them whenever certain bad wrestlers have matches. Let me ask you also, say a promotion decided to do away with say the 3 count pin and now to win a match a wrestler was required to do 3 consecutive uninterrupted backflips then would you call it wrestling? I doubt it, though perhaps it would be a mistake for me to think that. You see, when I talk on this matter I'm talking about Professional Wrestling. You on the other talk about what you think is Professional Wrestling, but you're talking Sports Entertainment.

 

You see the thing is, the loose following of rules in AEW, which do exist, look at whenever FTR have a match for example, the rules clearly exist then, is a sign of Sports Entertainment. In pro-wrestling the rules are followed and what happens has to be within those rules, the cheating included as it ain't cheating if a rule doesn't exist, because Professional Wrestling is a contest. In Sports Entertainment the rules can be disregarded as needed if they are unhelpful to whatever entertainment the company is putting on. Hence why for example during the last MJF vs Christ Jericho match count outs stopped mattering as Jericho and MJF brawled in the crowd, as a count out would get in the way of the entertainment. Then later, after both men re-entered the ring, it came time for the entertainment of Chris Jericho to barely beat the count at 9 and continue the match so suddenly count outs existed again. 

 

AEW is Sports Entertainment. Deal with it mate. Your WWE hate is clearly as such that you wish to deny this. AEW sees the term as toxic, at least for the fanbase they wish to cultivate so they deny that they are Sports Entertainment, however, they are, and clearly at that, Sports Entertainment. @ReazonIzTreazon @skidmarkgn @Glorious Fury What do you guys say on this as you post often in the wrestling threads. Perhaps you never considered this but I do think I've laid out the solid case of AEW being Sports Entertainment. Might AEW be closer to Professional Wrestling than WWE is? Perhaps I suppose, but, the matter here is if they are Professional Wrestling or Sports Entertainment. As I said in a previous post also, legitimate pro-wrestling does break out in AEW at times, same thing in the WWE, but we're talking the company as a whole. Now if AEW is Professional Wrestling and not Sports Entertainment I'd love to hear the explanation of how say teleporting Matt Hardy is Professional Wrestling. Tell me how a man teleports as I'd really like to patent that so I can make a lot of money off it.

LOL I love how I made no mention of this Sports Entertainment crap in my previous post...which means I don't care to continue commenting about it, but you just HAVE to bring it back up, like it actually matters at all. By your loose definition here, "Pro Wrestling" doesn't exist because literally every major and minor promotion on the goddamn planet does "Sports Entertainment". Yet, regardless of a teleporting Matt Hardy, or Dark Order skits...there's still a clear and defined difference between AEW and WWE. All of it, no matter what company it is, is for our entertainment. But in AEW the PRO WRESTLING is front and goddamn center at all times. 

 

Also while I'm here, let's get something perfectly clear. I don't hate WWE....I hate what it became. I love the WWE, it's been such a massive part of my life, all I want is for Vince to get his head out of his ass and come to his senses. But in the mean time...I have a PRO WRESTLING company I can watch to get my PRO WRESTLING fix. 

 

But the rules thing you don't seem to be understanding. You keep saying that the rules are fundamentals laid out from before WWE was a thing. I'm not even commenting on that, it's irrelevant to what I'm saying. The rules are a company by company thing....it doesn't matter what was established 40 bajillion years ago. The individual company utilizes rules any way they want. In AEW, having to tag in 100% of the time obviously isn't a hard and fast rule....otherwise it would be enforced as such. Again you blame the wrestlers for doing these things, but AEW obviously doesn't care that much therefore they can't be BAD wrestlers if they're working within the confines of their companies rules. Just because Tag Matches were established one way at one point in time, doesn't mean that's not how it works here. YOU don't like it...there's difference. And if company decided that's how their wins work....I'd definitely be a little worried about where their heads are at and I wouldn't expect it to work out for them for very long, but it's still that companies thing...more power to them. It's their prerogative to define their rules however they want, regardless of what was established at the beginning of time. 

[Rozalia1]

1 minute ago, Viper said:

LOL I love how I made no mention of this Sports Entertainment crap in my previous post...which means I don't care to continue commenting about it, but you just HAVE to bring it back up, like it actually matters at all. By your loose definition here, "Pro Wrestling" doesn't exist because literally every major and minor promotion on the goddamn planet does "Sports Entertainment". Yet, regardless of a teleporting Matt Hardy, or Dark Order skits...there's still a clear and defined difference between AEW and WWE. All of it, no matter what company it is, is for our entertainment. But in AEW the PRO WRESTLING is front and goddamn center at all times. 

 

Also while I'm here, let's get something perfectly clear. I don't hate WWE....I hate what it became. I love the WWE, it's been such a massive part of my life, all I want is for Vince to get his head out of his ass and come to his senses. But in the mean time...I have a PRO WRESTLING company I can watch to get my PRO WRESTLING fix. 

 

But the rules thing you don't seem to be understanding. You keep saying that the rules are fundamentals laid out from before WWE was a thing. I'm not even commenting on that, it's irrelevant to what I'm saying. The rules are a company by company thing....it doesn't matter what was established 40 bajillion years ago. The individual company utilizes rules any way they want. In AEW, having to tag in 100% of the time obviously isn't a hard and fast rule....otherwise it would be enforced as such. Again you blame the wrestlers for doing these things, but AEW obviously doesn't care that much therefore they can't be BAD wrestlers if they're working within the confines of their companies rules. Just because Tag Matches were established one way at one point in time, doesn't mean that's not how it works here. YOU don't like it...there's difference. And if company decided that's how their wins work....I'd definitely be a little worried about where their heads are at and I wouldn't expect it to work out for them for very long, but it's still that companies thing...more power to them. It's their prerogative to define their rules however they want, regardless of what was established at the beginning of time. 

 

You either don't remember your own words or are simply lying. Below is a quote from you where you make clear that WWE is a "circus act" of Sports Entertainment, while AEW is Pro-Wrestling. 

 

19 hours ago, Viper said:

No. Absolutely not...there is a clear and present difference between WWE's circus act of Sports Entertainment and AEW's Pro Wrestling. Professional wrestling doesn't "sometimes break out", it's literally what drives the company. Again this is nothing more than your skewed view on what is right or wrong with what YOU think Pro Wrestling should be. 

 

My definition is anything but loose, in fact it is the exact opposite of loose. As for talk of no promotion today being purely/majority Pro-Wrestling. Likely the case yes sure, but not because pro-wrestling is an impossible thing. WWE, Sports Entertainment, defeated Pro-Wrestling a long time ago is all and the defeat was so total that even companies who hate WWE put on Sports Entertainment. Oh and Pro-Wrestling front and centre is what AEW does is it? Tell me about that Ghost Busters Elite vs Dark Order main event with all the goofs and bad comedy, and how that was such pure Pro-Wrestling. Try it. Would be a good laugh.

 

AEW is not a Pro-Wrestling company. They are a Sports Entertainment company. Accept reality. Oh, and if you don't hate WWE then how is it that you are so adamant in denying the reality that AEW is not an alternative to WWE, but instead an alternative WWE?

 

So what you're saying is you agree with me in the statement I made. For entertainment purposes the rules are selectively enforced/ignored. Guess what that means. They are Sports Entertainment.

[Viper]

2 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

You either don't remember your own words or are simply lying. Below is a quote from you where you make clear that WWE is a "circus act" of Sports Entertainment, while AEW is Pro-Wrestling. 

 

 

My definition is anything but loose, in fact it is the exact opposite of loose. As for talk of no promotion today being purely/majority Pro-Wrestling. Likely the case yes sure, but not because pro-wrestling is an impossible thing. WWE, Sports Entertainment, defeated Pro-Wrestling a long time ago is all and the defeat was so total that even companies who hate WWE put on Sports Entertainment. Oh and Pro-Wrestling front and centre is what AEW does is it? Tell me about that Ghost Busters Elite vs Dark Order main event with all the goofs and bad comedy, and how that was such pure Pro-Wrestling. Try it. Would be a good laugh.

 

AEW is not a Pro-Wrestling company. They are a Sports Entertainment company. Accept reality. Oh, and if you don't hate WWE then how is it that you are so adamant in denying the reality that AEW is not an alternative to WWE, but instead an alternative WWE?

 

So what you're saying is you agree with me in the statement I made. For entertainment purposes the rules are selectively enforced/ignored. Guess what that means. They are Sports Entertainment.

Anyways....

 

This has been a lot of fun....not really. But I'm done with this now, it's a few hours of my life I'll never get back. Someone else can tag in now. Oh wait, this is the AEW thread...you don't have to!

[Rozalia1]

2 minutes ago, Viper said:

Anyways....

 

This has been a lot of fun....not really. But I'm done with this now, it's a few hours of my life I'll never get back. Someone else can tag in now. Oh wait, this is the AEW thread...you don't have to!

 

Nice joke. I'd advise you stop running from the truth at some point though. Not good to lie to yourself as toxic positivity isn't good for you. See ya mate, have some good times.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Rozalia1

[skidmarkgn]

1 hour ago, Rozalia1 said:

. @ReazonIzTreazon @skidmarkgn @Glorious Fury What do you guys say on this as you post often in the wrestling threads. 

 

I can 100% say that I don't give a shit.  In the social media/internet age where everyone has a camera that they pull out before ever acting on a situation and people in general need instant gratification the labels are synonymous.  It's impossible in today's world for a professional wrestler to be in character 100% of the time like the old days, it's also impossible to expect people who have lived their entire lives with the world at their fingertips to be patient enough for long term/slow burn reality based programs to be the only option.  Like I said before, I've spent almost two decades watching person after person (non-wrestling fans) pay no attention at all to the television when a wrestling program comes on until something outrageous happens (even recently on this thread djb5f said Orange Cassidy was the reason they might have to start watching), that's the hook to grab eyes, then once they've latched on to a certain wrestler the door opens for them to see the forest for the trees so to speak.  Maybe someone out there is a fan of the darker side, (Jackmadrox for example) no more Wyatt in WWE but they saw a clip of this Darby Allin guy who took an insane bump, now they're interested and who knows who might jump out at them next.  Your idea of "professional wrestling" is IMO dead, today's world is leaps and bound different from the territory days and I wholeheartedly believe "sports entertainment" is necessary to grab attention.  So yeah, the industry as a whole is sports entertainment these days and it's time for the purists out there to accept it.

[Rozalia1]

29 minutes ago, skidmarkgn said:

I can 100% say that I don't give a shit.  In the social media/internet age where everyone has a camera that they pull out before ever acting on a situation and people in general need instant gratification the labels are synonymous.  It's impossible in today's world for a professional wrestler to be in character 100% of the time like the old days, it's also impossible to expect people who have lived their entire lives with the world at their fingertips to be patient enough for long term/slow burn reality based programs to be the only option.  Like I said before, I've spent almost two decades watching person after person (non-wrestling fans) pay no attention at all to the television when a wrestling program comes on until something outrageous happens (even recently on this thread djb5f said Orange Cassidy was the reason they might have to start watching), that's the hook to grab eyes, then once they've latched on to a certain wrestler the door opens for them to see the forest for the trees so to speak.  Maybe someone out there is a fan of the darker side, (Jackmadrox for example) no more Wyatt in WWE but they saw a clip of this Darby Allin guy who took an insane bump, now they're interested and who knows who might jump out at them next.  Your idea of "professional wrestling" is IMO dead, today's world is leaps and bound different from the territory days and I wholeheartedly believe "sports entertainment" is necessary to grab attention.  So yeah, the industry as a whole is sports entertainment these days and it's time for the purists out there to accept it.

 

Okay cool, you agree with me that AEW is Sports Entertainment.

 

As for the rest. Of course it is possible for a wrestler to be in character while in public around people who aren't just other wrestlers. Why wouldn't it be? It is called having respect for the business, what you do, and what has come before. If you are a despicable heel who insults everyone then you should insult the fans in public yes, with the exception of women (ugly ones are fine to insult) if you are single. If a guy gets pissed and takes a swing? You beat that guy down and your boss gives you a bonus for beating said guy down. Of course, modern wrestlers are largely smaller and while all too happy to be "naughty" on the "show", they are terrified of saying a bad word when outside the context of the "show". Boo hoo, someone will say I'm a bad person. If you are a face then you have to be an upstanding individual in whatever way fits you. In the modern day it is often said that being a heel is easy, a face is hard. Such a thing traditionally was the exact opposite, and should be. If it was we'd shut down this business inside and outside the locker room of everyone wanting to be heels as guys who now want to be heels saying naughty things have to commit to it.

 

Modern fans have been trained to such a thing due to a hearty heaping of car crash content. Where you have to constantly have new match ups, stipulations on matches, and if guys have more than 2 matches with each other than the program has gone on "forever" and should end. People can however be retrained if you do a good enough job at it. I think your assessment of modern people is completely off by the way. Look at canons, extended universes, and all manner of such things. Modern people are more into all that than those of the past.

 

Orange Cassidy is a clown. A joke. Sure, whoever it is might laugh at the joke the first couple of times. Then the joke gets old. It has been years. How has Orange Cassidy evolved? He hasn't and is still doing the same old crap. His gimmick isn't even something that I'd say is out of the realms of Pro-Wrestling as long as it actually builds to something, he ain't a complete waste like say Janela. Of course the issue then is that Orange Cassidy isn't actually a very skilled wrestler (he himself has said this) and on top of that he is someone who has been quoted as saying that his gimmick is a middle finger to professional wrestling so he obviously has no respect.