The AEW Discussion Thread

[skidmarkgn]

1 hour ago, Rozalia1 said:

*snip*

 

I'm gonna skim that wall of text. 

 

With the women, pretty sure we get each other so I'm not gonna go any further with it.

 

When it comes to Khan, you obviously spend way more time diving deep into the details than I do.  I've never once spent any amount of time listening to any schpiel about AEW being progressive or inclusive and such, not saying it hasn't happened, I'm sure it has but it sounds like something you have to border-line search for, not a spotlighted focus of the company.  The "real sports feel" thing, yup, I heard it, and I couldn't care less about it being abandoned.  I also couldn't care less about inclusiveness or whatever.  I'm a "talent is talent" kinda person and a lesser talent being pushed for the sake of being progressive would bug me more than who's currently at the top (which by the way doesn't bug me at all).  I just don't get why those things bug you as much as they seem to, that's how I'm wired.  When you say I won't focus on that kind of stuff, you're right, not because I'm turning a blind eye but because it's not worth focusing on to me.  I'd rather enjoy what they're doing right than get caught up in logging every detail and checking for consistency  When it comes to Khan it's like he killed your favorite puppy or something and you have a John Wickish Vendetta against him for shit that doesn't really matter that much to most people.  If that's how you're wired, fine, but you're gonna get pushback, and not just because we're all "AEW marks" but because you're bashing comes off as excessive when compared to the "infractions".  There's holding someone to a standard and there's going berserk with rage because everything didn't pan out exactly as stated before the company truly existed, you comments towards Khan definitely lean more towards one end of the spectrum than the other.

 

With Lethal, when the news of ROH broke I already put his name as someone I hoped they would sign a couple pages back.  I didn't know about his allegations but if I did, I wouldn't care.  When allegations lead to an investigation that lead to charges that lead to a guilty verdict, then I'd care.

[Glorious Fury]

A little late to the party, but glad Hangman won the title. Had to win at the PPV against Omega otherwise any chance of him being a top guy in AEW is thrown out of the window anytime soon. Timing was better than the previous PPV, as Bryan/Punk hype has cooled down and gave the story some more time to develop. I still feel Hangman may not have an initial lengthy run, however I reckon he will have many runs as the AEW World Champion in time strengthening his position as a top worker in AEW.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Glorious Fury

[Rozalia1]

20 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

I'm gonna skim that wall of text. 

 

With the women, pretty sure we get each other so I'm not gonna go any further with it.

 

When it comes to Khan, you obviously spend way more time diving deep into the details than I do.  I've never once spent any amount of time listening to any schpiel about AEW being progressive or inclusive and such, not saying it hasn't happened, I'm sure it has but it sounds like something you have to border-line search for, not a spotlighted focus of the company.  The "real sports feel" thing, yup, I heard it, and I couldn't care less about it being abandoned.  I also couldn't care less about inclusiveness or whatever.  I'm a "talent is talent" kinda person and a lesser talent being pushed for the sake of being progressive would bug me more than who's currently at the top (which by the way doesn't bug me at all).  I just don't get why those things bug you as much as they seem to, that's how I'm wired.  When you say I won't focus on that kind of stuff, you're right, not because I'm turning a blind eye but because it's not worth focusing on to me.  I'd rather enjoy what they're doing right than get caught up in logging every detail and checking for consistency  When it comes to Khan it's like he killed your favorite puppy or something and you have a John Wickish Vendetta against him for shit that doesn't really matter that much to most people.  If that's how you're wired, fine, but you're gonna get pushback, and not just because we're all "AEW marks" but because you're bashing comes off as excessive when compared to the "infractions".  There's holding someone to a standard and there's going berserk with rage because everything didn't pan out exactly as stated before the company truly existed, you comments towards Khan definitely lean more towards one end of the spectrum than the other.

 

With Lethal, when the news of ROH broke I already put his name as someone I hoped they would sign a couple pages back.  I didn't know about his allegations but if I did, I wouldn't care.  When allegations lead to an investigation that lead to charges that lead to a guilty verdict, then I'd care.

 

Well... you perhaps are now correct on them not really selling the progressiveness/inclusiveness on the show after they put Sonny Kiss in the witness protection program. Nyla Rose "passes" and they never mention her minority group, not that I'm saying that is a bad thing, but it means anybody who isn't in the know on it misses it. Kiss... the moment you see him you know instantly the company is pushing inclusiveness... there have been others. That gay guy jobber Cody randomly introduced to the ring that one time on Dynamite who has a stereotypical gay guy gimmick that I suppose is supposed to be "ironic". However, whenever it comes to media, the papers and all that, they wheel those people out and talk about how inclusive they are. That certainly has happened and still happens. 

 

You're right. Talent is talent. If all the best talent are White guys then they should be at the top. We don't disagree on that. I take issue with AEW doing it however because they have put it out there that they are a progressive and inclusive company and yet they clearly do not walk the walk. It isn't that I'm some progressive who takes issue with them not being full in. I just don't like when someone lies on these matters. We have so many companies out there lying on these matters and giving an illusion of power to that mob you keep talking about that you hate.

Though to be clear, a wrestling company should build up minority talent. You could state moral reasons, or political ones if you're a progressive type, but really... it is also about business. Not to say minorities can't be big fans of White guys, of course they can, but it is also good to have diversity in there. If for nothing else to make clear to people that the business isn't just for White guys, it is for everyone. WWE, the evil empire, ironically is far ahead of AEW in this respect.

 

That isn't of course to say that AEW isn't possibly trying to rectify this. You do have diverse talent on the card which AEW marks to defend the company will state that eventually they will get there and given a chance... thing is, were they White would they be given a chance quicker? Why is Starks not one of the "4 Pillars"? Why does Hobbs job to Orange Cassidy whenever they have a match (at least he didn't OTKed this time, progress) when he has the body that he does, while Brian Cage got to go over Hangman Adam Page bizarrely that one time where he squashed him. The women meanwhile are a bit better as they're a diverse group to start with, but diverse women are always so much more easily sold than diverse men so how much credit you can give on that is up to debate, but even there you can see issues. Shida, who is Japanese, as champion as I said, seemingly had to pay the company to be on TV. Baker, who is American (White), completely dominates what time the division gets. Of course Tony Khan can dispel all of this on the Women's end if he puts the title, and I don't mean the side one though sure she can have it too, on Jade and have her dominate. 

 

Tell you what about Lethal. We'll see what happens. I think not much of anything will happen to him as the mob you're so worried about simply does not have the power you think they do. We'll see who is correct on that.

[buckallmighty]

 

[skidmarkgn]

1 hour ago, Rozalia1 said:

*snip for space*

 

Some of your examples are easily explained, some are indeed baffling.  First and foremost, I'd love to be able to probe Khan's mind and extract why Cage went over Page.  I don't know, maybe he panicked at the thought of Page taking time off, maybe there was some sort of scrapped push for Cage (who is actually another guy I wouldn't mind seeing let go) no idea.  Hobbs and Starks, to me, are career midcarders.  Hobbs is big and sneers well but his matches aren't IMO that entertaining and OC is more over. Starks has far more charisma and potential and I'd also like to see him pushed more.  With what Punk's doing I'd be super down to see him and Starks have a program, sans team Taz though which I'm ready to call a flop.  Shida/Brit, easy.  With the exception of in-ring skill, Brit is leaps and bounds easier to push than Shida.  No international restrictions to worry about, no language barrier to overcome and Brit has charisma for days.  All they could really do with Shida was put her in the ring with other girls, which I remember them actually doing quite a bit during her reign.  Brit however is a great talker, has a great look, is a F'n legit dentist which can be exploited in multiple ways, and is a super solid ring worker, she's quite literally a complete package, and before you mention it, once Jade gets a little more mileage under her belt (I'd personally rather Tai, who's Brazilian I believe, dethrone Brit then have Jade take out Tai) she'll be a great successor.

 

The one guy who they seem to be really behind is Dante Martin, and for good reason.  I'm assuming, and of course correct me if I'm wrong, that he's not your cup of tea but I think he's amazing, especially when you factor in his age.  Sky's the limit for that kid... and ironically it looks like team Taz is unfortunately the current direction they're going with him.

Edited November 17, 2021 by skidmarkgn

[Valzentia]

Adam Page winning the belt is one of the few decisions I agree with Khan on lately. lol

11 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

The one guy who they seem to be really behind is Dante Martin, and for good reason.  I'm assuming, and of course correct me if I'm wrong, that he's not your cup of tea but I think he's amazing, especially when you factor in his age.  Sky's the limit for that kid... and ironically it looks like team Taz is unfortunately the current direction they're going with him.

Dante can stand on his own. I like Team Taz, but he doesn't need them and they don't need him.

[Rozalia1]

13 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

Some of your examples are easily explained, some are indeed baffling.  First and foremost, I'd love to be able to probe Khan's mind and extract why Cage went over Page.  I don't know, maybe he panicked at the thought of Page taking time off, maybe there was some sort of scrapped push for Cage (who is actually another guy I wouldn't mind seeing let go) no idea.  Hobbs and Starks, to me, are career midcarders.  Hobbs is big and sneers well but his matches aren't IMO that entertaining and OC is more over. Starks has far more charisma and potential and I'd also like to see him pushed more.  With what Punk's doing I'd be super down to see him and Starks have a program, sans team Taz though which I'm ready to call a flop.  Shida/Brit, easy.  With the exception of in-ring skill, Brit is leaps and bounds easier to push than Shida.  No international restrictions to worry about, no language barrier to overcome and Brit has charisma for days.  All they could really do with Shida was put her in the ring with other girls, which I remember them actually doing quite a bit during her reign.  Brit however is a great talker, has a great look, is a F'n legit dentist which can be exploited in multiple ways, and is a super solid ring worker, she's quite literally a complete package, and before you mention it, once Jade gets a little more mileage under her belt (I'd personally rather Tai, who's Brazilian I believe, dethrone Brit then have Jade take out Tai) she'll be a great successor.

 

The one guy who they seem to be really behind is Dante Martin, and for good reason.  I'm assuming, and of course correct me if I'm wrong, that he's not your cup of tea but I think he's amazing, especially when you factor in his age.  Sky's the limit for that kid... and ironically it looks like team Taz is unfortunately the current direction they're going with him.

 

It was the rankings. Hangman was at the top of the rankings and they wanted to have someone else be next so they had him lose to Brian Cage so he'd drop from the top. It was that stupid yes.

 

Everyone who talks of Hobbs as a heel misses that he is wasted as one. He has potential as a main event level babyface. He is 30 years old which isn't old. Is massive. Has the personal story of his brother, who dreamed of being in the wrestling business, shoving him out of the way and taking a bullet for him and dying, meaning that Hobbs carries with him his brother's dream. You put him in a feud with MJF who seemingly always brings this sort of stuff up and you can make the guy on that feud alone, as long as he crushes MJF and Wardlow in every encounter... well, MJF can escape with DQs/Count Outs as he knows he can't beat Hobbs and he really cares about his win-loss record.

 

Starks has as much potential as any of the "4 pillars", heck I'd argue he has more than what Jungle Boy has shown (guy has no promo ability. Darby at least has that Jeff Hardy factor where it doesn't really matter). It'd also make more sense if he was one because currently it is 3 faces and 1 heel... though I guess Sammy might be just temporarily face.

 

Basically what Jim Cornette has said about Shida/Baker and why Baker is better. What you've said isn't incorrect. Being tougher doesn't mean you don't attempt it though, which AEW never did with Shida. You also have to realise that there is such a thing as perception. Shida and Baker as champion is a world of difference. Note also that Baker even when Shida was champion pretty much always got a promo on the show and may well have been booked about as much in Dynamite matches too (I'd have to check). Ultimately the first 3 champions to me come off as pandering as they waited on Baker. Remember how much the Joshis were talked about as being important? Best wrestlers in the world and all that. Yet look at them now. Did you know that Emi has a faction now? It shows up entirely in the void so no you wouldn't, no one does. 

 

Heel vs Heel has never bothered AEW so I don't see why Jade can't just take it from Baker. Though yes, might be good to add in a short transitional reign in there first. AEW thus far does a lot of long reigns which have completely predictable end points.

 

Are they behind Dante Martin? Remember Daniel Garcia? Remember whoever they had cycled in before him? AEW seems to book certain guys a whole bunch for a period of time and then hide them away. I see no evidence that Dante Martin isn't the latest toy to be used and then thrown away. As for my own thoughts on Dante Martin... needs to improve his promo and facials. He is small yes but this doesn't discount him from being an exciting midcard babyface (would be nice if heels stopped trying to be exciting). There is also the matter of his brother which means that Dante will likely be largely a tag team wrestler and not pushed as a singles once his brother returns.

 

2 hours ago, Valzentia said:

Adam Page winning the belt is one of the few decisions I agree with Khan on lately. lol

Dante can stand on his own. I like Team Taz, but he doesn't need them and they don't need him.

 

There was a fear that the big signings made him scrap Hangman winning the title, but thankfully he did the correct move and put it Page.

 

Team Taz has been treated horribly. They get put in long feuds that they lose in again and again in and come off as a result completely ineffectual. The only feud I can recall they've won was against Brian Cage... who was part of their group... and that may have only been because Cage came down with something and as such is out of action. Personally I'd like to see them become a face group and then Dante joining them would be a nice move. As I said above, Hobbs has massive potential as a babyface. Starks... I'm sure could be a good babyface himself, though likely best he keeps his biting comments so he is a face who talks more like how a heel talks. 

[SelectiveGamer]

I can't help but feel like they are going to turn Daniel Bryan heel now that a heel isn't a champion again (yes I'm calling the WWE/NXT ship jumpers by their WWE names now out of protest) with reports that Kenny Omega might finally take some time off to heal some lingering injuries he's been dealing with apparently. Admittedly his heel work in WWE was probably some of his best work. I just hope it's not a rehash of 'eco-terrorist' Daniel Bryan.

 

Also... what happened to AEW not buying ROH? That PPV told a completely different story altogether...

 

 

so they're buying wwe next right so i can finally quit?

[skidmarkgn]

6 hours ago, SelectiveGamer said:

I can't help but feel like they are going to turn Daniel Bryan heel now that a heel isn't a champion again

 

You certainly nailed that one, lol.  I really wish they had actually taken some time to do it though instead of just flipping the switch like they did.

[SelectiveGamer]

Not sure if I'm going full blown protest now at this point or not (I won't discount the possibility though) but I couldn't get myself to watch all of AEW on Wednesday. It was too boring. For me at least. ?

[skidmarkgn]

1 hour ago, SelectiveGamer said:

Not sure if I'm going full blown protest now at this point or not (I won't discount the possibility though) but I couldn't get myself to watch all of AEW on Wednesday. It was too boring. For me at least.

 

Not trying to change your mind or even start a debate, I respect your opinion but my curiosity is overwhelming and I love hearing other perspectives, what in particular bored you? 

[Infected Elite]

On 15/11/2021 at 2:13 PM, Rozalia1 said:

 

I said "Modern fan thought". You could be 80, I'm referring to the mindset, not the physical age.

 

Yeah, your comment is pure modern fan thought right there. Where faces are only fine when chasing because after they win it becomes "boring" so get the title on another heel who says naughty things I can giggle at. Rotten stuff. The heels are not there to be entertaining. They are there to be vile and to be someone you want to see get beat. They should not be doing moves like what you see them do on AEW to wow people. It is the faces who should be entertaining and spectacular in the ring.

 

So every heel should be like Orton when he was a heel, just punch, stomp, headlock. Meanwhile some of the best heels in the past 15 years have put on amazing matches with great ring psychology and didn't go to WWE, such as Kenny Omega, Jay White, Sami Callihan, MJF is quickly rising as one of the best of today. Sure he's annoying and has a face you'd love to just smash with a bat, but he's good at his job. 

Then you have Roman who's hardly even entertaining. The only reason he's not constantly booed still is fans respect for Paul Heyman. 

 

But your basis is stupid. 

Face: long title reigns, more flips, beats the bad guys

Heel: mean, can't beat good guys. cant be liked by fans. cant do flips.

 

Maybe get out of the 1980s era of wrestling brother.

On 17/11/2021 at 8:46 PM, skidmarkgn said:

 

You certainly nailed that one, lol.  I really wish they had actually taken some time to do it though instead of just flipping the switch like they did.

 

i do agree they could have slow built. Original plan apparently was Moxley going full heel, cheat to win, beat BD at Full Gear and be the first feud for Adam Page. Obvs Mox is dealing with issues and good on him for seeking help, all the best luck to him. But yeah i think since MJF will be the one to beat Page for the belt at Double or Nothing, they can't use him yet. So the only other heel who's near top is Miro but he lost to Danielson. So i guess a face vs faces wasn't in the cards. Hopefully Danielson goes bald though like.ROH. He already started the "I'm gonna kick your fuckin head in" stuff too. 

 

But i assume Page vs Danielson at New Years Smash. No idea who Page faces at Revolution, but yeah, i honestly might be in the minority.... Page has in ring talent, but his mic skills suck and i dont fully see what fans like so much in him.... but ill take him as champ before any of the others like Danielson, Punk, Miro. Not because they're ex-wwe, but because they should be having maybe 1 title reign in their aew tenure, while more homegrown talent takes the spotlight. 

 

Maybe Revolution,  Hangman vs Cole (but Cole has lost a ton....)

[Rozalia1]

To defend AEW, rare I know, you can't really fully judge a wrestling show as anything after watching just one of them. For all you know you watched one of the wretched episodes, such as OC vs Hardy in the main event or something like that. Though I understand finding it boring if you find the whole million miles an hour hit every single move you know every match while ignoring the rules AEW style boring. It is why I'm happier skipping the wretched tag matches involving rotten boring disrespectful talent like the Lucha Brothers (learnt my lesson that not even FTR can make them passable) than watching them. 

 

8 hours ago, Infected Elite said:

So every heel should be like Orton when he was a heel, just punch, stomp, headlock. Meanwhile some of the best heels in the past 15 years have put on amazing matches with great ring psychology and didn't go to WWE, such as Kenny Omega, Jay White, Sami Callihan, MJF is quickly rising as one of the best of today. Sure he's annoying and has a face you'd love to just smash with a bat, but he's good at his job. 

Then you have Roman who's hardly even entertaining. The only reason he's not constantly booed still is fans respect for Paul Heyman. 

 

But your basis is stupid. 

Face: long title reigns, more flips, beats the bad guys

Heel: mean, can't beat good guys. cant be liked by fans. cant do flips.

 

Maybe get out of the 1980s era of wrestling brother.

 

Bloody hell mate. Just what is this? How have you got all this stuff so backwards? Bizarre.

 

You talk as if MJF being "annoying and has a face you'd love to just smash with a bat" as somehow being negatives for a heel. MJF by the way was the guy who literally just got done winning a match with a headlock takedown (after a weapon shot). Then the Roman bit... what? Roman isn't supposed to be out there entertaining you by acting like a clown such as how Omega and the like do. He is supposed to be the Tribal Chief, a Mafia Boss type character you could say who strikes fear even in his own heel stablemates who desperately don't want to displease him. Also fans do chant Roman, quite a bit actually, and it ain't because of Heyman, but beyond that... being booed is what a heel is supposed to be. Were he constantly booed then that would be a positive, not a negative. The problem with Roman is that even though due to his years as the top face, as maligned as that was, it makes sense for him to be so utterly dominant, there simply is no one around to take the title off him and become the top face as a result. Bron Breakker on NXT is the only guy who makes sense... and he has literally just started in NXT, so Roman might have to be holding the title for at least 3 years (this includes his current time as champion) till Bron can challenge him. 

 

Your summation is largely correct but off in some respects. A monster heel can certainly straight up beat most babyfaces straight up, but standard heels should not be able to no. They're cowardly, villainous, and will always search for a shortcut as a result. The babyface also has the heart/soul to fight that a heel simply does not possess. Heels can bust out big moves, but only rarely and it should make sense. Orton who you mentioned for example has an exciting and extremely over finish, so as a heel he wrestles as heelish as possible to make up for it. Leave the exciting stuff for the faces to do and you don't overload a show with such spots and render them meaningless junkfood. There are always exceptions to all these things of course, but they are just that, exceptions, not something commonly found across a roster.

 

1980s? Try foundational since the start of the whole thing. Granted, what was an "exciting move" back in those days is very different to what even in the 80s was an exciting move. 

 

8 hours ago, Infected Elite said:

But i assume Page vs Danielson at New Years Smash. No idea who Page faces at Revolution, but yeah, i honestly might be in the minority.... Page has in ring talent, but his mic skills suck and i dont fully see what fans like so much in him.... but ill take him as champ before any of the others like Danielson, Punk, Miro. Not because they're ex-wwe, but because they should be having maybe 1 title reign in their aew tenure, while more homegrown talent takes the spotlight. 

 

Maybe Revolution,  Hangman vs Cole (but Cole has lost a ton....)

 

I suppose the Hangman doesn't say enough naughty stuff for you to like his promos. Minority? Even AEW haters (don't include myself in that but I'm sure many would) like Page. Your seemingly complete lack of understanding of Faces and why they are so important would be why you feel as you do if I had to guess. The modern thought of today that people want heels is incorrect, even today, people want heroes, as they always have and always will. 

 

Hangman Adam Page is their shot at having a top face (AEW has yet to have a proper one, just nominal ones) so if they don't have Page go over all the ex-WWE guys and hold the title for a very long time then Tony Khan is a fool.

[SelectiveGamer]

On 11/18/2021 at 6:45 PM, skidmarkgn said:

 

Not trying to change your mind or even start a debate, I respect your opinion but my curiosity is overwhelming and I love hearing other perspectives, what in particular bored you? 

 

Everything mostly. Nothing they were doing interested me in the slightest. At least with that particular episode. I'm not saying I won't try again with this next upcoming Wednesday... I probably will. Is it because there's no else on to watch/do? Well... I'd be lying if I said no...

[Rozalia1]

We can now confirm that the "belt collector" storyline that fans were so excited for is now over. It ended as it began, with a whimper. TNA title was lost much sooner than planned as Khan wanted to pop a number for Rampage and increase interest you could say for Christian vs Omega for the AEW title, you know, the title that mattered as that is what this booking and commentary at the time were all saying. Christian went on to drop the title to a TNA guy but... who cares? Certainly not the rub TNA wanted for one of their guys. AAA meanwhile had the title on Omega for a very long time (he defended it 5 times in 2.5 years, 2/5 on AEW itself) and it has been announced that he cannot compete and so he is stripped of it. Now you might say that Omega is injured so what can AEW really do? Many things, for example, Omega can't compete yes, but he nominates his top guy Adam Cole to defend the title for him. Cole puts Vikingo over which can add to the story on AEW of problems between Omega and Cole (Omega/Bucks/Whoever could interfere in the match too in such a way that unintentionally causes Cole to lose). As he never lost to Vikingo, Omega down the line when healthy can do the job to Vikingo or someone else if they're champion. That would be AEW making good on everything, but instead nope, screw you I guess. In short, AAA got nothing out of the affair. Omega meanwhile got to hold for a long time two other promotions top belts and didn't have to put anyone in said promotions over. Shawn Michaels is smiling. 

 

Now to be clear I have no real issue with all of this. If TNA and AAA are stupid enough to buy the snake oil that Tony Khan is selling then that is on them. For the fans who wish to have all this inter-promotional stuff then it has certainly taken hit with all of this. 

 

In other news. I saw them before people started to take issue and didn't really think much of it but it seems Dave Meltzer, of "Kenny Omega and Roman Reigns have the same gimmick" fame, has done star ratings so absurd that people have been taking him to task for them. The worst rated matches, or the "least good" matches as they're called if AEW, were of course the Women's matches because Meltzer has got that side to him as we know, but I don't think many really care much about that. Instead what has the main focus is that Cole/Bucks vs Christian/J Express got 5 Stars which... wow. I actually hope Meltzer is on the take because it'd be less embarrassing if he was simply corrupt than him honestly believing that. Mediocre at best, to be kind, messes like the Lucha Brothers and Inner Circle stuff got 4 stars when everyone knows that were they in WWE it'd be half that. 

 

As I said at the start, I don't see much in these things. Meltzer has a encyclopaedic knowledge on the history of Professional Wrestling and no one can take that away from him. However when talking on matters beyond that? No credibility for numerous reasons. My advice to those around Meltzer would be to convince him to address the matter and establish that his ratings today cannot be judged against the ratings of the past. That his ratings today are judging a different and more modern wrestling. That he could be like say Jim Cornette and rate them low, but he instead judges them for the wrestling they are and rates accordingly. It is not hard to justify this.

[Rozalia1]

So that promo battle between MJF and CM Punk. 

 

AEW doesn't tend to do these long promo segments like WWE does so it comes off more notable/special as a result. Both guys had good stuff and did their part, though all the WWE references do ultimately make AEW look small time it could be said. I've seen people go at MJF for not "standing up to CM Punk on the mic" and that sort of stuff and... the ignorance most people today have oh dear. The heel is actually not supposed to "beat" a top face in such a promo battle because that has the chance of degrading the babyface and making him lesser going forward. Like in a match, the heel puts the face on the backfoot at the start sure, but then the babyface fires up and takes them down. The heel might have elements of truth in his promo, but they twist things, they add lies to the mix, they falsely promote themselves as being above people. The face meanwhile simply tells the truth, exposes the heel, and as shown with MJF here, sends them running when they challenge the heel. 

 

3 WWE names were dropped during this segment and oddly only The Miz got directly named. Some would say (unfairly) the Miz line alone sunk MJF instantly as someone might not consider it... when you think about it... MJF and Miz are indeed very much alike. Though Punk can count his lucky stars that MJF didn't decide/figure out/was allowed to use Miz against Punk because that would have hurt. Miz being someone that Punk has resented for a long time now because WWE trusted Miz with a Wrestlemania main event over Punk himself. Miz being someone who has had more success in both wrestling and ventures outside of wrestling than Punk. Miz who has gotten to achieve his dreams while Punk will have to live with his not being fully fulfilled, and Punk doesn't have the "odds" excuse as Miz also had to go against the odds, perhaps greater odds even. Of course, I can understand why MJF didn't use it, as you have to put over Miz massively to hurt Punk and Miz is not in AEW so... yeah.

[skidmarkgn]

14 hours ago, Rozalia1 said:

-Miz being someone that Punk has resented for a long time now because WWE trusted Miz with a Wrestlemania main event over Punk himself.

 

-Miz being someone who has had more success in both wrestling and ventures outside of wrestling than Punk.

 

Just because they "trusted" him doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake, nor a decision that was popular with the fans.

 

I believe that you believe the first part of that statement but... seriously?  Do  you honestly think fans would go as crazy for Miz under any circumstance ever as they went when Punk returned, or would spend 7 years chanting his name if he walked away?  Punk spent far more time at the top of the card than Miz, and it's VERY debatable that Miz deserved a run at the top at all (other than being a tried and true WWE molded wrestler).  Punk is a fixture in the sport, an icon even, while Miz is a solid mid-carder that can always be relied on to bow to Vince.  I'll give you the outside endeavors but within the wrestling bubble itself there's nothing you can say that will ever convince me Miz is anywhere on Punk's level.

[Rozalia1]

5 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

Just because they "trusted" him doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake, nor a decision that was popular with the fans.

 

I believe that you believe the first part of that statement but... seriously?  Do  you honestly think fans would go as crazy for Miz under any circumstance ever as they went when Punk returned, or would spend 7 years chanting his name if he walked away?  Punk spent far more time at the top of the card than Miz, and it's VERY debatable that Miz deserved a run at the top at all (other than being a tried and true WWE molded wrestler).  Punk is a fixture in the sport, an icon even, while Miz is a solid mid-carder that can always be relied on to bow to Vince.  I'll give you the outside endeavors but within the wrestling bubble itself there's nothing you can say that will ever convince me Miz is anywhere on Punk's level.

 

CM Punk, an abrasive individual who is never happy no matter how much he is given (you can count on that he'd complain somehow about his Wrestlemania main event if he got one). The Miz, a guy who is willing to do anything and always puts 100% into it. These sort of things do matter and trump what the fans might want if at a bad enough level. Ultimate Warrior for example was massively over... and massively abrasive, to the point that no matter how popular he was WWE had to get rid of him. Was that the correct move for the fans? No. Was it the overall correct move? Yes.

 

That ain't fair come on now. CM Punk got fired, did his podcast painting WWE as monsters (while unfairly targeting guys like Ryback which lost any sympathy I might have for Punk), and then was painted as some folk hero the evil heel empire took out unjustly. Had CM Punk simply left then the whole CM Punk chant stuff would not have happened.

Success is subjective but I will make the case for the Miz here so you can understand that it ain't some crazy thing I'm stating. 

 

CM Punk

ECW Championship (1 time)
World Heavyweight Championship (3 times)
World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Kofi Kingston
WWE Championship (2 times)
WWE Intercontinental Championship (1 time)

Money in the Bank (2008, 2009)

 

The Miz

WWE Championship (2 times)
WWE Intercontinental Championship (8 times)
WWE United States Championship (2 times)
WWE Tag Team Championship (4 times) – with John Morrison (1), Big Show (1), John Cena (1) and Damien Mizdow (1)
WWE SmackDown Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Shane McMahon (1) and John Morrison (1)
World Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with John Morrison (1) and Big Show (1)
Mixed Match Challenge (Season 1) – with Asuka

Money in the Bank (Raw 2010)

 

Punk has officially you could say more World titles certainly, but fans, and this covers Punk fans, often argue that the World Heavyweight title after a certain period became a midcard title which is what Punk's wins of it were. Both men have 2 runs each with the actual top title. Punk overall has more days but his big reign was maligned by infamously being second to whatever John Cena might have been doing, while Miz got to successfully defend the title at Wrestlemania against Super Cena at that. 

 

When it comes to midcard belts the Miz enjoys far more overall and he currently is tied on the record of IC title reigns, and considering Jericho is the other man, will no doubt surpass at some point. Beyond that Miz has always made his belts a big deal which combined with his healthy amounts of promo and match time meant the titles meant something when he held them (the IC title is devalued because most holders get little to no promo time and a match here and there with little in the way of feuds). Punk has 1 more MITB than Miz, though Miz has the Mixed Match Challenge which was a facebook thing that was heavily watched (promotion) and WWE were foolish (what else is new) to not continue after the Facebook deal ended as the shows were overwhelmingly positively rated by fans (shocker, the show was pleasant and not full of misery like the main shows).

 

Now we could talk about other things but then you start getting into comparing the two men straight up rather than how successful they are so perhaps not relevant here. Both men enjoyed healthy amounts of promo and match time no matter where they were on the card. Miz I would argue is not simply more famous than MJF, but Punk as well. In terms of getting other people over I'd argue that the Miz overwhelmingly wins in that respect considering how Miz can get any heel lackey paired up with him over as a huge babyface (WWE obviously then botches the follow up but that ain't on Miz).

 

Influence? This one is an interesting subject because while I think CM Punk has influenced many people who have become wrestlers... I don't think he has managed to influence them in such a manner as actually being like CM Punk. To explain. CM Punk for whatever reason among many of his fans tends to get treated as some sort of master of the ropes which... no. Crooked Moonsault Punk as some have called him isn't as good as he is because he can execute all manner of moves perfectly, but because he has a great mind in the ring and can react to things correctly, does things that make sense, and can guide people to having a good match which is near everyone in AEW. How many CM Punk influenced people have actually become wrestlers like that? The Miz meanwhile... it ain't exactly "cool" to want to be like the Miz. Miz wrestles a safe style that is backed up by his character work which is classically WWE, classically as WWE has been away from that for a good while now. I'm sure he'd never admit to it of course as it hardly fits him to admit to such a thing, but I'm sure MJF likely can be counted as someone who has been influenced by Miz. Most of the Miz fans in the industry, mostly women it seems, don't wrestle/act like the Miz, but I don't think they ever set out to.

[Glorious Fury]

1 hour ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

CM Punk, an abrasive individual who is never happy no matter how much he is given (you can count on that he'd complain somehow about his Wrestlemania main event if he got one). The Miz, a guy who is willing to do anything and always puts 100% into it. These sort of things do matter and trump what the fans might want if at a bad enough level. Ultimate Warrior for example was massively over... and massively abrasive, to the point that no matter how popular he was WWE had to get rid of him. Was that the correct move for the fans? No. Was it the overall correct move? Yes.

 

That ain't fair come on now. CM Punk got fired, did his podcast painting WWE as monsters (while unfairly targeting guys like Ryback which lost any sympathy I might have for Punk), and then was painted as some folk hero the evil heel empire took out unjustly. Had CM Punk simply left then the whole CM Punk chant stuff would not have happened.

Success is subjective but I will make the case for the Miz here so you can understand that it ain't some crazy thing I'm stating. 

 

CM Punk

ECW Championship (1 time)
World Heavyweight Championship (3 times)
World Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Kofi Kingston
WWE Championship (2 times)
WWE Intercontinental Championship (1 time)

Money in the Bank (2008, 2009)

 

The Miz

WWE Championship (2 times)
WWE Intercontinental Championship (8 times)
WWE United States Championship (2 times)
WWE Tag Team Championship (4 times) – with John Morrison (1), Big Show (1), John Cena (1) and Damien Mizdow (1)
WWE SmackDown Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Shane McMahon (1) and John Morrison (1)
World Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with John Morrison (1) and Big Show (1)
Mixed Match Challenge (Season 1) – with Asuka

Money in the Bank (Raw 2010)

 

Punk has officially you could say more World titles certainly, but fans, and this covers Punk fans, often argue that the World Heavyweight title after a certain period became a midcard title which is what Punk's wins of it were. Both men have 2 runs each with the actual top title. Punk overall has more days but his big reign was maligned by infamously being second to whatever John Cena might have been doing, while Miz got to successfully defend the title at Wrestlemania against Super Cena at that. 

 

When it comes to midcard belts the Miz enjoys far more overall and he currently is tied on the record of IC title reigns, and considering Jericho is the other man, will no doubt surpass at some point. Beyond that Miz has always made his belts a big deal which combined with his healthy amounts of promo and match time meant the titles meant something when he held them (the IC title is devalued because most holders get little to no promo time and a match here and there with little in the way of feuds). Punk has 1 more MITB than Miz, though Miz has the Mixed Match Challenge which was a facebook thing that was heavily watched (promotion) and WWE were foolish (what else is new) to not continue after the Facebook deal ended as the shows were overwhelmingly positively rated by fans (shocker, the show was pleasant and not full of misery like the main shows).

 

Now we could talk about other things but then you start getting into comparing the two men straight up rather than how successful they are so perhaps not relevant here. Both men enjoyed healthy amounts of promo and match time no matter where they were on the card. Miz I would argue is not simply more famous than MJF, but Punk as well. In terms of getting other people over I'd argue that the Miz overwhelmingly wins in that respect considering how Miz can get any heel lackey paired up with him over as a huge babyface (WWE obviously then botches the follow up but that ain't on Miz).

 

Miz is certainly better at putting guys over, being professional and when out of character Miz comes across very well, but does that make a great 'success' in the minds of the fans. 

 

You are padding the stats here in your favor towards Miz. You can't discredit Punk's World Heavyweight title runs, WWE count them as a World title so why can't you? He had a very good program with Jeff Hardy feuding over the title, which fans were very into. Hardy at the time also was very over to John Cena levels as a face, and was getting cheered by all segments of the crowd and moving very good level of merch. Away from WWE and titles, Punk has his ROH run which is very popular within the Indie crowd. 

 

Miz may have got the Cena match at Wrestlemania, but who actually enjoyed that match much. It was poor, and one of the worst Wrestlemania main events. Credit to Miz though as he suffered a pretty nasty injury during the match and carried on best he could. However, Miz could have been any major heel, Cena/Rock were the only two who were needed as it was to build to the following Wrestlemania. In contrast, Punk and Cena had a feud which considered an all-time great and possibly Cena's finest match in the company and was worthy of a Wrestlemania main event. 

 

I think Miz is a good heel, and has improved since 2011 when he was WWE Champion. Miz has had some nice moments such as the Talking Smack promo, and some good matches. His match with Dolph Ziggler at No Mercy 2016 was a very good one which I can recall.

 

Of course it's subjective to what you see as important, but most people will say Punk without even hesistating.  

Edited November 26, 2021 by Glorious Fury

[Rozalia1]

36 minutes ago, Glorious Fury said:

Miz is certainly better at putting guys over, being professional and when out of character Miz comes across very well, but does that make a great 'success' in the minds of the fans. 

 

You are padding the stats here in your favor towards Miz. You can't discredit Punk's World Heavyweight title runs, WWE count them as a World title so why can't you? He had a very good program with Jeff Hardy feuding over the title, which fans were very into. Hardy at the time also was very over to John Cena levels as a face, and was getting cheered by all segments of the crowd and moving very good level of merch. Away from WWE and titles, Punk has his ROH run which is very popular within the Indie crowd. 

 

Miz may have got the Cena match at Wrestlemania, but who actually enjoyed that match much. It was poor, and one of the worst Wrestlemania main events. Credit to Miz though as he suffered a pretty nasty injury during the match and carried on best he could. However, Miz could have been any major heel, Cena/Rock were the only two who were needed as it was to build to the following Wrestlemania. In contrast, Punk and Cena had a feud which considered an all-time great and possibly Cena's finest match in the company and was worthy of a Wrestlemania main event. 

 

I think Miz is a good heel, and has improved since 2011 when he was WWE Champion. Miz has had some nice moments such as the Talking Smack promo, and some good matches. His match with Dolph Ziggler at No Mercy 2016 was a very good one which I can recall.

 

Of course it's subjective to what you see as important, but most people will say Punk without even hesistating.  

 

Getting guys over is part of being successful as a professional wrestler yes. Some people notice it, others wrongly notice it (common with AEW), others don't notice it at all. 

 

I noted it and then referred to Punk fans for a reason. There is a large amount of the online fandom, which you could say every Punk fan is in as his fans tend to be more hardcore, that discount that title as a top title. My personal view is what you've said, it is officially a world title, but I don't disagree with the assessment that it is clearly a midcard title in actual importance. How much are those titles worth also compared to the great many more midcard titles that Miz holds? Midcard titles which as I've said, Miz does tend to make meaningful which many can't do. ROH title I forgot to note, was going to add he did win that Indy title once and that both him and Miz have the top titles of developmental federations to their name.

 

You are not incorrect, but the fact remains that Miz went over in the main event of Wrestlemania which is an exclusive club especially as a heel... well, that doesn't really mean much anymore due to how evil heel empire WWE has since gone, but it used to be a big deal. Miz's match and what surrounded it (The Rock) is also why I've never believed Punk for a second in his talk that he was willing to basically do what Miz did in a Wrestlemania main event. If Punk had to do what Miz did and got his main event he would still be whining about it to this day. Punk and Cena being Cena's best match? Ummm... in the running yes and a common one brought up by fans. If I had to say something off the top of my head which I think would perhaps rank higher it'd be the John Cena vs JBL I Quit Match. This is all subjective of course, but as I said, I don't disagree with you on that.

 

Miz often doesn't exactly have the best material to work with (he is in WWE so...) but when he is allowed to use his own personal story for stuff he is incredible. As a heel yes, but as the Shane McMahon feud showed he can also be one hell of a face if you know, WWE was competent at booking babyfaces. MJF should certainly study Miz I think as there is a not uncommon thing I hear from people about MJF. That they can tell that he is being a "character". With Miz when he starts laying into people with material like "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard enough", using what others say about him, it comes off as real and the man himself saying it. People can feel the very real chip on the Miz's shoulder, which simply doesn't happen with MJF.

Not that I'm attacking MJF, he is young and has plenty of time to get there, but he needs to develop this to be able to get to that "next level". I think anyway, to some people as long as he says naughty things then all is good.

[skidmarkgn]

4 hours ago, Rozalia1 said:

*snip*

 

Seems like you're wanting to judge "success" based on what Vince thinks of someone instead of the fans. 

[Rozalia1]

1 hour ago, skidmarkgn said:

Seems like you're wanting to judge "success" based on what Vince thinks of someone instead of the fans. 

 

If you actually read the post closely you'd see that I mentioned that there are other factors then whatever the promotion has booked you to win yes. I started with it and listed it out because unlike other things, it is easily quantifiable. I'm not going to expand because clearly you don't care to engage with it anyway so no worries on that.

 

Anyway... this is getting away from the point of the matter. It doesn't actually matter if Miz or Punk had more success or not if you go back to what you initially quoted. I put forward what MJF could have used to flip the Miz comment on Punk back on him. Now you might disagree with my assessment of Punk's relationship to Miz, but I think it is undeniable how easy it is to reach the conclusion that Punk hates Miz because The Miz had "more success", again, in Punk's mind that sees that main event as the absolute peak of success, than him.

 

To cap this off. My intention was simple to note something that would have material that would have hurt Punk and MJF, if he had a free mic, might kick himself later for not using as a comeback for the Miz line. Not to be attacking Punk for how he has previously acted. There has been no talk of such negativity from Punk in AEW and I trust his age and environment has helped mellow him out and be a more positive individual. 

[Rozalia1]

Cody Rhodes joins Jon Moxley on the list of people who Tony Khan and their wife should have sat down and said no to. A flaming table spot? On bare skin at that? Has the fan reaction driven Cody mad? No one cares and just thinks you're an idiot Cody. It was done for a nothing match also and looked like crap as Cody once again in a table spot took all the impact himself (just scoop slam a guy through a table if this keeps happening) and then still won as the other guy was made to look the fool taking a pinfall from a move he took no impact from. To be fair, if you freeze frame it all at a different angle it does sort of appear like Andrade took a faceful of fire (blinding risk, nice)… but if he did he sure didn't react like he did so it looks bad either way.

 

Indefensible garbage. No, "I even set myself on fire for you people" getting dropped in a later promo is not needed or worth this. Literally do anything else if you want to add to it all. We've already had his second wife slap him around, why not have his first wife do it as Cody is now neglecting her due to wanting to be over with the fans? Perhaps Cody could instead do the slapping as his want to be popular leaves him heavily irritable of those around him? You can add heat to the fire without setting yourself on fire Cody.

[Rozalia1]

There are people within AEW that raise issues you know. The one we've heard most about is Chris Jericho, though not in some time now. The reason is clear enough. There is no point so people stop complaining... and as they stop complaining the booker, booker of the year Tony Khan himself, clearly starts believing that as people stopped then there must be no problem. What does that lead to? Just look at the most recent Dynamite.

 

Diamond Battle Royal - POST MATCH BEATDOWN!

8 man tag match - POST MATCH BEATDOWN!

Young Bucks vs Best Friends -  POST MATCH BEATDOWN!

Riho vs Hayter - POST MATCH BEATDOWN!

Danielson vs Silver - POST MATCH BEATDOWN!

 

Every single match on the card had a post match beatdown. 

 

I held off before because there was a chance they might improve but when we're reaching a point where every match has a post match beatdown it just needs saying. AEW very much goes for that Attitude Era aspect where everything has to keep moving and there has to be constant violence (beatdowns), car crash TV as some call it. Explains them beating NXT 1.0 as comparing the two programs people would see this fast smash mouth program in AEW and then a by comparison "slow" program in NXT. AEW looked far more exciting than NXT 1.0. There is a problem though. For a lot of people this is simply too much. For those that like it? They will eventually get dull to it... while finding any episode that doesn't have massive amounts of beatdowns "boring".

 

All these heel beatdowns also hurt the babyfaces badly when they happen so damn often. Say I'm liking a face on the show. Am I going to become a bigger fan of the guy if he is getting beatdown by heels every show? No, I'm going to start thinking that the face is just going to keep getting beatdown as he is a loser. Even if he wins a match, he'll have it instantly negated by getting beatdown. 

Here is a novel idea, from the stone ages I know. How about in some of these instances when the heels attack the babyface, the babyface fires up and sends however many heels are doing the attack running. Oh but the heels will look weak in comparison to the babyface? THAT IS THE POINT! Heels are weaker than faces, that is wrestling 101, hence why heels cheat and try to gang up on the faces. That isn't to say that heels shouldn't have successful beatdowns, nor that no heel can be presented as stronger than a face (monster heels exist for that purpose for example), but AEW badly needs to dial this madness back. 

[skidmarkgn]

Gotta say, Hook looked good in his debut.  His style was a bit simple and I doubt he could work a match like that against a guy like Hobbs but he obviously has a solid foundation and youth on his side.  Working squashes with smaller guys is gonna work just fine for now but he's another one that the sky's the limit.