The AEW Discussion Thread

[djb5f]

I haven’t watched any AEW but this Orange Cassidy guy is a hoot, from YouTube videos.

 

 

I’m going to have to check out AEW now!

[ReazonIzTreazon]

On 10/7/2021 at 4:06 PM, Rozalia1 said:

Skipped Elite vs Byran and friends tag match because as I've said I'm no longer watching AEW tag garbage. Still watching the finish and damn, even just watching that angers me. All the Elite guys doing their knees to Jungleboy at the same time... Out of interest I zipped back to see how long a double team was in effect before this point... straight up 2 minutes. Straight up 2 minutes where 2 heels and then 5!!! heels are in the ring at the same time and no attempt is ever made to get them out of the ring. JR at the end has to make a comment to try and save himself from the burial that is done to any announcer who has to call this crap. Tony meanwhile doesn't care, and Excalibur likely doesn't know better. 

Absolutely wretched stuff. If this persists I'll have to stop watching even the finishes to not get angered by this disgracing of tag team wrestling that happens in AEW constantly. Tony Khan for all his "smarts" about the business (reading Meltzer's dirtsheet) clearly knows nothing about how tag wrestling actually works. I'm not going to let him off by pretending that this is all just the Young Bucks. He is ultimately to blame. What makes this even worse is I don't doubt that he actually wants to do good by tag team wrestling... he is just so terrible at it that he does a worse job with tag team wrestling than Vince who dislikes and has no interest in tag wrestling, to the point I think it only remains more out of tradition and it being helpful for killing time on TV.

Side note. Could they stop pinning Jungle Boy in these things? The finish was a damn 5 on 1 move, I'm sure the Dino can take a pin in this situation. He should overall be taking many more pins considering that while yes, he is big, he has no potential unlike Jungle Boy.

 

That Sky Blue is it? Wow... no energy whatsoever in her promo. No idea if she is any good but she needs a manager if this is all she can do currently on the mic. Jade with the comment of making the TBS championship "That Bitch Show" is cool and all but... why would the number 1 contender for the AEW Women's title be in a tournament for this one? Unless Baker is also in it (I'd support that) then it makes no sense and acts as a spoiler that obviously Jade isn't going to win the AEW title... and likely the TBS one too as her then winning it is stupid as you instantly have told everyone that obviously the TBS championship is below the AEW one. Something they haven't yet done with the TNT title. 

As for the women having another title... I don't trust it. In theory this should mean that women will now get 2 matches on Dynamite... but as I said, I don't trust them with Women's wrestling. I think what they're going to do is have the AEW title stuff on Dynamite and then have TBS championship stuff on Rampage. That way both shows can maintain the strict 1 Women's match cap. 

Side note. Obviously Jade should beat Baker for the AEW title and then win this tournament for the TBS title. 

Further side note. The belt needs a redesign already as the TBS looks like HOS. 

 

So the Pinnacle was masked for their attack on Darby... it was clearly and obviously them and no attempt to hide that was made, but at least they were masked yes... is this going to be a thing in AEW going forward or are they being a bit more realistic here this one time and then reverting back? Because guys doing these attacks have never saw the need to mask themselves before. 

 

Hangman returning and winning is the correct move and it is good we can breath easy on that front sooner rather than later. Closer it got to Full Gear the more likely it looked that he had been sidelined.

 

 

Don't worry, plenty of other people will be giving that pass for obvious reasons. I wouldn't worry though as they likely will be scrapping it for something else as currently the front plate looks like it says HOS and you can't have a women have a title like that.

As for AEW and TNT being on the same level... I would say they have maintained that, thus far anyway. Previous holders were all guys you could say were main event guys or guys that could beat whoever was in the main event if they were to have a match. Obviously if they did they wouldn't win, but the point is that they were credible. I don't expect them to successfully do the same with the TBS title as they do not care about Women's wrestling. This is pandering to defend themselves from attacks and help their marks defend themselves and by extension AEW when pressed on the matter of the women getting tiny scraps. 

 

As Baker and the tiny belt... they may well scrap that in future if say Jade wins it and she (in kayfabe) wants a big belt for her big self and not some tiny thing. However, they might well keep it on the logic that it looks like an old timey belt and so that makes it more prestigious looking. You also have to remember that at some point they'll likely put the title on a 5'0 80lbs "Joshi" and a big belt will look terrible on them. I'm pretty sure the title was only a small one like because Riho was the first champion. Just imagine her wearing the AEW men's title and think of the visual. A women wearing a belt that is clearly too big for her. Even just on the shoulder it'll clearly be oversized. 

 

Jeez, you must be fun at parties.

 

You spend around a third of your post analysing a FINISH of a division you've allegedly stopped watching, stating that "plenty of people giving a pass" on a title design that nobody gives a shit about apart from said poster and not an issue that's gotten ANY publicity or defence (nevermind your problem of the size of a title (like seriously, get a life)), not to mention micro-analysing mask wearing in professional wrestling. And anyone that follows knows that Sky Blue is green as grass and cannon fodder for the tournament but she'd still learn more trying to cut a promo herself rather than being fed lines from someone who used to work on the equivalent of Hollyoaks. You know, like it was done in the good old territory days.

 

I still don't get why you even watch AEW. If you can't watch arguably the hottest wrestling product in ~20 years without overwhelming criticism then it obviously isn't for you. I can understand grading a product you love to a high standard (I do the same for GOT, MCU and Naughty Dog for example) but you clearly don't enjoy it and would prefer shitting on it and getting on your soapbox to spread your cheer. Considering you spend ~2hrs a week watching and talking about it, you could probably find a better use of your time.

 

 

On topic, I'm not a fan of the addition of the midcard Women's title. The division is not close to being strong enough to support it. Baker is an absolute superstar, Rosa and Soho are closest to her level, Jade is a star in the making but needs time and nuture, and everyone else needs a lot of work and a midcard title at this moment is basically the equivalent of a piss break match. I would have preferred a trios title that would have better complimented the amount of factions on the roster.

 

Hopefully Page is on track to win the title at Full Gear followed by the much needed Punk heel turn and straight edge angle to follow which should be red hot!

[Rozalia1]

 

Just imagine the pearl clutching if Vince or some other WWE executive said even half of this sort of guff. Tony Khan continuing to say stupid things not realising how small time and stupid it makes him look as the boss to do these sort of comments. 

 

Not to mention... this is where you're going to proclaim this? When Smackdown is on a lesser channel temporarily (usually means their numbers are cut in half)? He better hope that Rampage beats Smackdown now because a lot of people will be mocking him/AEW for this blunder if they don't... but even if they do... it means nothing due to the channel change so... see, as I said, stupid comment to make.

 

11 hours ago, ReazonIzTreazon said:

 

Jeez, you must be fun at parties.

 

You spend around a third of your post analysing a FINISH of a division you've allegedly stopped watching, stating that "plenty of people giving a pass" on a title design that nobody gives a shit about apart from said poster and not an issue that's gotten ANY publicity or defence (nevermind your problem of the size of a title (like seriously, get a life)), not to mention micro-analysing mask wearing in professional wrestling. And anyone that follows knows that Sky Blue is green as grass and cannon fodder for the tournament but she'd still learn more trying to cut a promo herself rather than being fed lines from someone who used to work on the equivalent of Hollyoaks. You know, like it was done in the good old territory days.

 

I still don't get why you even watch AEW. If you can't watch arguably the hottest wrestling product in ~20 years without overwhelming criticism then it obviously isn't for you. I can understand grading a product you love to a high standard (I do the same for GOT, MCU and Naughty Dog for example) but you clearly don't enjoy it and would prefer shitting on it and getting on your soapbox to spread your cheer. Considering you spend ~2hrs a week watching and talking about it, you could probably find a better use of your time.

 

 

On topic, I'm not a fan of the addition of the midcard Women's title. The division is not close to being strong enough to support it. Baker is an absolute superstar, Rosa and Soho are closest to her level, Jade is a star in the making but needs time and nuture, and everyone else needs a lot of work and a midcard title at this moment is basically the equivalent of a piss break match. I would have preferred a trios title that would have better complimented the amount of factions on the roster.

 

Hopefully Page is on track to win the title at Full Gear followed by the much needed Punk heel turn and straight edge angle to follow which should be red hot!

 

Yes I said a lot of words stating how offensive AEW's tag wrestling is while only having seen the finish. It is that bad. Most teams are terrible with a few exceptions and Lucha Brothers and the Young Bucks are at the top of the crap pile as they act as multipliers of suck. 

 

I don't see why you're so hot regarding me telling me someone else that fans are going to give it a pass. They are. You are. I'm stating the truth so what is the issue exactly? That I'm stating the truth? As for the issue of the size of the title where you told me to "get a life", where did I state that I have an issue with the size of the title? I stated the likely reason it was small (Riho) but also added that perhaps they'll keep it small due to the old timey look. Regarding the masks... micro-analysing? Come now. I stated that AEW did an attack where the attackers were actually hidden which is a bit late considering the many attacks where guys weren't hidden, many even including Pinnacle guys for that matter. It makes perfect sense for guys to be masked for this stuff, but why now and not before? If going forward they're always masked then okay, they're fixing a phoney bit of business, but I doubt that this will be the case going forward. 
Sky Blue being green is something you think I don't know? Here is something mind blowing for you. If she is that green and that bad... don't do the promo. This was not live. It was taped. Tony Khan apparently oversees all this personally and he saw that and signed off on it, yup, this will do. It is not good to see on the show and it also isn't good for Sky Blue herself to have that be seen.

 

As for your comment about me and my criticism. A couple of posts back I praised an entire episode of Dynamite which I said likely was the best weekly show of at least the year. If something is good I will state as such. It just often isn't with AEW due to the show being full of phoney indy goofs. It is no coincidence that the best Dynamite show they've ever had was also one where the goofs weren't booked. As for why I watch, I will say again, AEW is in fact a watchable show even more so now for me that I'm cutting out the wretched tag team wrestling.

 

As I said. The title, I mean just look at its name, means it likely will be a Rampage title with the champ's program taking place there. That way they can maintain the 1 woman's match cap per show on Dynamite and Rampage. Also Jade needs no time, she is already ready to be champ. While she trains further every opponent can simply act as a pinball for her. She can also have 2 lackies like Baker has to have matches in her place/have 6 woman tags. Some talent you should just be smashing over. Look at Brock Lesnar for example. Did they slowly have him climb the ranks or something in hard fought matches, taking some losses here and there? No, he went out there and he obliterated everybody. As for a "Trios" title... I'm sure you'll get what you want at some point, perhaps when they make Rampage a 2 hour show full time. It'll be wretched to me of course.

[skidmarkgn]

On 10/7/2021 at 8:13 AM, djb5f said:

I haven’t watched any AEW but this Orange Cassidy guy is a hoot, from YouTube videos.

 

I’m going to have to check out AEW now!

 I'm sure you must have seen it but juuuuust in case you haven't, here's another video of (IMO) the best part of that Cassidy/Pac match:

 

[Valzentia]

On 10/9/2021 at 9:08 AM, Rozalia1 said:

Lucha Brothers and the Young Bucks are at the top of the crap pile as they act as multipliers of suck.

I wasn't anticipating seeing Jim Cornette running around on this forum

 

Anyway, yeah the women's midcard title is a good idea in theory but the division is not strong enough right now—especially not with Boring Baker at the top of it. I also have this weird thing about AEW naming the midcard belts after their TV partners. It's not only lazy, but what the hell are you gonna use if you ever switch to another network?

 

Also Khan needs to shut up with the WWE potshots and focus on his product. For a company that likes to talk about how there is no war they sure as hell seem to enjoy trying to provoke their competition...

[Rozalia1]

I still don't know why they let opponents even get offense in on Jade but at least she never went down to the floor and absorbed all the offense without issue. Side note. She should not be "getting heat" with stomps/punches. Get heat with slams and show off that power. It can be something like a stiff powerbomb but perhaps more fitting Jade would be something Bobby Lashley has done before, a stall (reps can be done on smaller opponents) suplex and of course bicep pose (with one arm) before the long fall from 6 feet in the air. 

[Rozalia1]

It is so sad to see Cody having family problems as he is. Arn and the jobbers are one thing but for even his second wife Red Velvet to turn on him... nasty stuff. He needs to get Red Velvet, Brandi, and Rosario Dawson in a room and try to salvage his family life. Some things are more important than wrestling. My suggestion would be to get Jade on side as a new wife as she'd keep the rest in line so he only has to worry about treating one wife right. 

[Rozalia1]

I knew I was correct to not consider Cody as having finally let someone go over him without him getting a win back. It seems that everybody was so busy thinking that Cody is a HHH mark that they missed that he apparently is Cenation and wishes to emulate his hero with being a "polarising" face too. We'll see how this goes. Clear case of AEW "not listening to the fans" which WWE does a bunch and gets attacked for... wonder if the marks will come down hard on them for it? Obviously everyone knows the answer to that. Give it some years and more cases though, inevitable stuff perhaps. I hope this has made things good in the Cody household at last. 

 

In other news. Archer is an idiot for doing stuff he shouldn't be doing and nearly killing himself. Moxley is still the biggest idiot in wrestling with his recent excursions outside AEW. 

[Viper]

I'm not on the Cody hate train like most people, but that third match with Black didn't need to even be a thing, as soon as they announced a third I knew Cody was going over. Now, on my end during Dynamite a commercial played for Rhodes to the Top and in it you hear Cody say "I'm a babyface and I got boo'ed out of the building". AEW and Cody are well aware there's a problem with him right now and I'm holding out some hope this is just a strange way of turning Cody Heel eventually. AEW doesn't usually play the same WWE ignoring everyone games...so for now I'm just going to assume this is going somewhere. Besides...back when Cody was feuding with MJF and put that stipulation in place where he would no longer challenge for the AEW World Title...I figured something would happen eventually to lift that clause, granted I thought it would happen much sooner than this, but turning into a Heel and basically just saying "fuck everybody" is a simple way to lift it. 

 

And I'm not going to call Archer stupid. But that Moonsault scared the shit out of me...they definitely called an audible with Kingston winning, I have no doubt Archer was supposed to advance. I haven't heard anything though, is he alright? Figured at least a concussion. 

[buckallmighty]

19 hours ago, Viper said:

 

And I'm not going to call Archer stupid. But that Moonsault scared the shit out of me...they definitely called an audible with Kingston winning, I have no doubt Archer was supposed to advance. I haven't heard anything though, is he alright? Figured at least a concussion. 

 

I wouldnt be surprised if he picked up a pretty serious neck injury over that. He was my pick to win the whole damn thing. Cant believe he had to give his spot to Kingston.

[Rozalia1]

20 hours ago, buckallmighty said:

I wouldnt be surprised if he picked up a pretty serious neck injury over that. He was my pick to win the whole damn thing. Cant believe he had to give his spot to Kingston.

 

Credit to all involved that they called an audible and just gave Kingston the win (which he needs as he loses constantly and is no threat to anybody). Last time this stuff happened in AEW was... PAC vs Cassidy I think which was handled terribly. 

 

On 25/10/2021 at 0:10 AM, Viper said:

I'm not on the Cody hate train like most people, but that third match with Black didn't need to even be a thing, as soon as they announced a third I knew Cody was going over. Now, on my end during Dynamite a commercial played for Rhodes to the Top and in it you hear Cody say "I'm a babyface and I got boo'ed out of the building". AEW and Cody are well aware there's a problem with him right now and I'm holding out some hope this is just a strange way of turning Cody Heel eventually. AEW doesn't usually play the same WWE ignoring everyone games...so for now I'm just going to assume this is going somewhere. Besides...back when Cody was feuding with MJF and put that stipulation in place where he would no longer challenge for the AEW World Title...I figured something would happen eventually to lift that clause, granted I thought it would happen much sooner than this, but turning into a Heel and basically just saying "fuck everybody" is a simple way to lift it. 

 

And I'm not going to call Archer stupid. But that Moonsault scared the shit out of me...they definitely called an audible with Kingston winning, I have no doubt Archer was supposed to advance. I haven't heard anything though, is he alright? Figured at least a concussion. 

 

I hate the fact that show is doing all that behind the scenes stuff. Some would say it is the "modern day" and who cares, but the fact of the matter is that the business when it was seen as more real did better for it as people want to believe and not have the fakeness put on display. Other sports don't do this stuff. Boxing feuds for example. They don't get physical, cut promos on the other guy, and then the day after they're on TV backstage with their opponent and singing off all their virtues and making clear that all the build up to their match is fake. How hard is it to maintain kayfabe?

 

Nobody knows why the stipulation was put in place and the story goes that Tony Khan did not want it to be a thing. My view? Khan already had the order of his champions sorted and Cody was obviously not on the list so Cody rushed himself into this stipulation so he could have going back to it be it in a babyface or heel manner in the bank. It also would mean he'd not have to do jobs to Jericho/Moxley/Omega after he lost the match with the stipulation and could instead largely beat everybody the majority of the time as he became a main event guy in the midcard. I mean the only guy I can recall Cody losing the final match to was Darby... after beating him several times of course. Every other loss just gets swiftly negated. 

 

No concussion apparently somehow, at least officially. Have a hard time trusting AEW on these matters due to how lax they have consistently shown themselves to be though. As for Archer being stupid. It ain't the place of the fans to call him stupid and all that of course, they should support him obviously, but somebody in the locker room/office needs to make it clear to him to be smarter and not be an idiot and almost kill himself. A big man like that doesn't need to do a moonsault and if you absolutely must for whatever reason, then do it in a big match that matters where you're going over. Not in the first round of a tournament where yeah you may be going over, but it is the first round match against a guy who never wins (matches that actually matter).

[skidmarkgn]

I know the last thing AEW needs is a bigger roster but with the ROH problems looming it seems inevitable.  That being said, I'd still love to see Jay Lethal, the Briscoes and especially Danhausen make the trip over to AEW.

[SelectiveGamer]

I don't understand why everyone is booing Cody Rhodes.

 

Either way... I guess Cody Rhodes is the John Cena/Roman Reigns of this company now.

[Viper]

56 minutes ago, SelectiveGamer said:

I don't understand why everyone is booing Cody Rhodes.

 

Either way... I guess Cody Rhodes is the John Cena/Roman Reigns of this company now.

It's because of the way he's been booked. He's still a far better wrestler than Cena or Reigns could ever dream of being. But a lot of Cody's matches are over produced, he's always telling the same story, and he's winning when he doesn't need to be. Such as this recent match with Malakai Black...there was no reason to have a third match just so Cody could get his win back, the whole thing flows better knowing Black beat him twice and moved on from the Nightmare Family. However, I think they did decent damage control on Dynamite last night with Black's promo (which was fantastic). 

[Rozalia1]

18 hours ago, Viper said:

It's because of the way he's been booked. He's still a far better wrestler than Cena or Reigns could ever dream of being. But a lot of Cody's matches are over produced, he's always telling the same story, and he's winning when he doesn't need to be. Such as this recent match with Malakai Black...there was no reason to have a third match just so Cody could get his win back, the whole thing flows better knowing Black beat him twice and moved on from the Nightmare Family. However, I think they did decent damage control on Dynamite last night with Black's promo (which was fantastic). 

 

I'd love to see you attempt to justify the bit I bolded. I think Cody is good too but come on now.

 

20 hours ago, SelectiveGamer said:

I don't understand why everyone is booing Cody Rhodes.

 

Either way... I guess Cody Rhodes is the John Cena/Roman Reigns of this company now.

 

What Viper said is correct but he leaves out a certain element which I think trumps all of them. Cody and Brandi Rhodes want to be HHH and Stephanie so badly and it is painfully obvious to many people who want none of that in AEW, quite rightly as that pair Cody and Brandi want to be are heavily responsible for WWE having two absolutely wretched periods that absolutely killed much of WWE's business.

 

It is also why I think those calling for Cody to turn heel should be very careful what they wish for. If Cody and Brandi go heel and start running everyone over like the Authority then it'll kill fan interest heavily that much is certain, especially coming after this heel dominant period with the Elite. 

[Viper]

26 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

I'd love to see you attempt to justify the bit I bolded. I think Cody is good too but come on now.

 

 

What Viper said is correct but he leaves out a certain element which I think trumps all of them. Cody and Brandi Rhodes want to be HHH and Stephanie so badly and it is painfully obvious to many people who want none of that in AEW, quite rightly as that pair Cody and Brandi want to be are heavily responsible for WWE having two absolutely wretched periods that absolutely killed much of WWE's business.

 

It is also why I think those calling for Cody to turn heel should be very careful what they wish for. If Cody and Brandi go heel and start running everyone over like the Authority then it'll kill fan interest heavily that much is certain, especially coming after this heel dominant period with the Elite. 

I have to justify that? Cena and Roman Reins are shit in the ring...this shouldn't be news to anyone. It's a big proponent as to why no one with any sense wanted either them to be the Faces of the company. You look at any match either of them has ever had that's been considered "good" it's been because their opponent carried them to a decent outcome. 

 

Cena has the most manufactured career in the history of pro wrestling and Reigns is only doing good things now because it was 6 years of failure at getting him over before Vince finally came to his senses and did what we told him to do from the start (turned him heel). Now granted, I haven't watched WWE since Survivor Series 2019 (and that was because of NXT), so I haven't seen Reigns in action since this whole Head of the Table gimmick started, but I would find it pretty hard to believe he's improved all that much, in ring wise, in that time. 

 

Cody on the other hand isn't going on any top 10 best wrestlers lists...but he's always been solid in the ring. 

[ReazonIzTreazon]

7 hours ago, Viper said:

I have to justify that? Cena and Roman Reins are shit in the ring...this shouldn't be news to anyone. It's a big proponent as to why no one with any sense wanted either them to be the Faces of the company. You look at any match either of them has ever had that's been considered "good" it's been because their opponent carried them to a decent outcome. 

 

Cena has the most manufactured career in the history of pro wrestling and Reigns is only doing good things now because it was 6 years of failure at getting him over before Vince finally came to his senses and did what we told him to do from the start (turned him heel). Now granted, I haven't watched WWE since Survivor Series 2019 (and that was because of NXT), so I haven't seen Reigns in action since this whole Head of the Table gimmick started, but I would find it pretty hard to believe he's improved all that much, in ring wise, in that time. 

 

Cody on the other hand isn't going on any top 10 best wrestlers lists...but he's always been solid in the ring. 

 

You probably should justify it because you are way off the mark. Yes Cena is no Danielson but he has been involved in several good to great matches and whilst he certainly benefits from a good 'dance partner' he could certainly hold his own. His match against Omaga proves your point wrong.

 

Cody is a far better promo than he is wrestler and came into AEW with the reputation of Mr 3 stars and other than the match against his brother has shown nothing to disprove that moniker.

 

As for Reigns I ve seen very little of his heel run but heard nothing but great things. I don't even disagree with your comments about Cena's manufactured career (Although I'd actually say Reigns' is more manufactured) and yes Reigns' heel turn was years overdue but the popular opinion is they've both had more quality matches than Cody and even following your flawed opinion, if Cena/Reigns can be carried to "good" matches then why can't Cody?

 

Edit - by the way, I completely agree that they shouldn't have booked the 3rd match with Black. Unless Cody resorted to actions which cemented a heel turn, which didn't happen. I think Black will recover though due to the strength of his character but the whole thing was unnecessary.

Edited October 30, 2021 by ReazonIzTreazon

[Viper]

1 hour ago, ReazonIzTreazon said:

 

You probably should justify it because you are way off the mark. Yes Cena is no Danielson but he has been involved in several good to great matches and whilst he certainly benefits from a good 'dance partner' he could certainly hold his own. His match against Omaga proves your point wrong.

 

Cody is a far better promo than he is wrestler and came into AEW with the reputation of Mr 3 stars and other than the match against his brother has shown nothing to disprove that moniker.

 

As for Reigns I ve seen very little of his heel run but heard nothing but great things. I don't even disagree with your comments about Cena's manufactured career (Although I'd actually say Reigns' is more manufactured) and yes Reigns' heel turn was years overdue but the popular opinion is they've both had more quality matches than Cody and even following your flawed opinion, if Cena/Reigns can be carried to "good" matches then why can't Cody?

 

Edit - by the way, I completely agree that they shouldn't have booked the 3rd match with Black. Unless Cody resorted to actions which cemented a heel turn, which didn't happen. I think Black will recover though due to the strength of his character but the whole thing was unnecessary.

Considering I've enjoyed more Cody Rhodes matches than I have Cena and Reigns combined...I don't think my opinion is flawed at all. Again this isn't news to say that Cena and Reigns are terrible in the ring...it's been the general consensus of knowledgeable fans since 2002. Cena was always a great character (that got severely stale), and a fantastic promo (when he was being serious)...not a great wrestler. Reins on the other hand was perfectly fine being the muscle in the original run of The Shield, but once that ended he had no business being "the guy"...I have very little positives to say about him...I'm probably less of a fan of Reigns than I am of Cena. It was a rough time for me during those years Vince was trying so hard to put him over...especially after enduring 10 years of doing the same with Cena prior. They're big reasons it was so easy to make the switch to AEW. 

[skidmarkgn]

3 hours ago, ReazonIzTreazon said:

Cody is a far better promo than he is wrestler and came into AEW with the reputation of Mr 3 stars and other than the match against his brother has shown nothing to disprove that moniker.

 

Can't speak for anyone else but just in his AEW days I thought Cody vs Darby at Fighterfest, Cody vs. Jericho (although I'll admit this one was due to storytelling more than anything), and Cody vs. Wardlow in the cage were all phenomenal matches.

[ReazonIzTreazon]

4 hours ago, Viper said:

Considering I've enjoyed more Cody Rhodes matches than I have Cena and Reigns combined...I don't think my opinion is flawed at all. Again this isn't news to say that Cena and Reigns are terrible in the ring...it's been the general consensus of knowledgeable fans since 2002. Cena was always a great character (that got severely stale), and a fantastic promo (when he was being serious)...not a great wrestler. Reins on the other hand was perfectly fine being the muscle in the original run of The Shield, but once that ended he had no business being "the guy"...I have very little positives to say about him...I'm probably less of a fan of Reigns than I am of Cena. It was a rough time for me during those years Vince was trying so hard to put him over...especially after enduring 10 years of doing the same with Cena prior. They're big reasons it was so easy to make the switch to AEW. 

 

Let's just agree to disagree. If you've enjoyed that many Cody matches then more power to you. Opinions are subjective and you're of course entitled to yours. I suppose the only issue I have is your comment about "knowledgeable fans since 2002", I've found the opposite but everyone agrees that the character was beyond stale for years.

 

And you don't have to tell me about Reigns, the only two Wrestlemania's I've seen live I had to suffer through two god awful main events of his lol.

 

3 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

 

Can't speak for anyone else but just in his AEW days I thought Cody vs Darby at Fighterfest, Cody vs. Jericho (although I'll admit this one was due to storytelling more than anything), and Cody vs. Wardlow in the cage were all phenomenal matches.

 

I didn't get to see Fyterfest unfortunately. I really enjoyed the angle and matches with Wardlow and MJF. I actually like Cody but just feel he's an average wrestler who is capable of good matches rather than great ones.

[Rozalia1]

22 hours ago, Viper said:

I have to justify that? Cena and Roman Reins are shit in the ring...this shouldn't be news to anyone. It's a big proponent as to why no one with any sense wanted either them to be the Faces of the company. You look at any match either of them has ever had that's been considered "good" it's been because their opponent carried them to a decent outcome. 

 

Cena has the most manufactured career in the history of pro wrestling and Reigns is only doing good things now because it was 6 years of failure at getting him over before Vince finally came to his senses and did what we told him to do from the start (turned him heel). Now granted, I haven't watched WWE since Survivor Series 2019 (and that was because of NXT), so I haven't seen Reigns in action since this whole Head of the Table gimmick started, but I would find it pretty hard to believe he's improved all that much, in ring wise, in that time. 

 

Cody on the other hand isn't going on any top 10 best wrestlers lists...but he's always been solid in the ring. 

 

I thought as much. Your opinion and all that but you're simply not fair or accurate in your assessment. @ReazonIzTreazon mentioned Umaga but I can do even better.... Great Khali. John Cena has got a good match out of the Great Khali. Cody nor anyone in AEW for that matter would be able to do that feat. Cena is not the most proficient wrestler when it comes to hitting moves yes, he was gifted with great strength rather than quickness shall we say, but he can go at a high level (wrestling is more than just hitting moves) in the ring and that is plain to see to anyone who has an open mind on the matter. This idea that he couldn't wrestle began to recede after his US title run which largely consisted of him having matches with people's favourites and showing he could hang, and only further receded since he has basically retired as more and more people came to realise, now that he was gone, just how good John Cena actually was. In short, you're behind the times if you think your opinion is one that "shouldn't be news to anyone". 

 

As for Reigns. He has "learned a new hold" (Guillotine) I guess but that ain't why Reigns is now so much better than he was. Before Reigns was forced to try to be John Cena as everyone knows. After all, if John Cena is the greatest wrestler of the modern age than who better to emulate than him? The problem is not just anybody can be Cena. Not just anybody can be Hulk Hogan. So forth. People have unique factors and context to them that means that certain things that won't work for others, work for them. Now that he has finally been allowed to be who he wants to be Reigns carries himself in the ring with a completely different air. How he moves about, his facials, how he berates people, so forth all comes together in Reigns to make an absolute top talent. The 6 years of waste you mentioned are used too because like I said, wrestlers have context to them. A wrestler dominating can be rejected and seen as not believable, however, years of super face Reigns means that it is wholly believable and acceptable to people that heel Roman Reigns is an unstoppable monster who crushes faces even in some cases when it is 2 on 1 and the faces are armed with weapons. Of course when even a so called expert like Meltzer misses these things hence him saying a while back that Reigns and Omega "have the same gimmick", it is not surprising many don't realise these things and how they matter. 

 

12 hours ago, Viper said:

Considering I've enjoyed more Cody Rhodes matches than I have Cena and Reigns combined...I don't think my opinion is flawed at all. Again this isn't news to say that Cena and Reigns are terrible in the ring...it's been the general consensus of knowledgeable fans since 2002. Cena was always a great character (that got severely stale), and a fantastic promo (when he was being serious)...not a great wrestler. Reins on the other hand was perfectly fine being the muscle in the original run of The Shield, but once that ended he had no business being "the guy"...I have very little positives to say about him...I'm probably less of a fan of Reigns than I am of Cena. It was a rough time for me during those years Vince was trying so hard to put him over...especially after enduring 10 years of doing the same with Cena prior. They're big reasons it was so easy to make the switch to AEW. 

 

Your opinion is flawed and heavily so as it is built on a faulty foundation. Your previous comment had you thinking that Cena and Reigns, not being "good in the ring" in your view, meant they shouldn't be faces of the company... when being the face of the company or even a good pro-wrestler has nothing to do with how technically proficient you are at hitting moves (it can help of course if you can make it work positively). You also are judging Cena off the period of time when hate for him was at a high point and so aren't aware how much people have softened on him. Reigns meanwhile you even admit you have barely watched, certainly not recently, and yet think you can judge him as being bad. No fairness at all in your words in short.

 

What matters to a wrestler is how over they are and how much interest they can generate. Everything else is secondary. You might have the most technically proficient wrestler in the world and it matters all of zero if no one cares about them and finds them boring. Look at say someone like Jimmy Valiant late in his career for example. His matches were the worst on the card and he was exclusively in a years long feud with Paul Jones and his heel stable. People loved it. No one cared the matches weren't great. They were fully into their hero Jimmy Valiant defeating Paul Jones and his army of heels. Ironically Vince McMahon, of Sports Entertainment, who many these days think knows nothing of wrestling, is apparently the only teacher of these aspects these days and the man is 76 years old and much more rarely gets to interact with most talent. The cruiserweights, Bryan, even Jim Cornette admit they learnt much from Vince that obviously they'd not pick up anywhere else. It is why so many talent that leaves WWE and has clearly levelled up their game are so glowing about Vince, as he taught them certain aspects of wrestling that you just won't get taught elsewhere these days.

 

Of course don't take the above as an endorsement of current WWE which is absolutely wretched. The only good thing that can be said about WWE is that there is currently clearly an effort to restore WWE to what Vince's vision for it is. On the main roster we're seeing this with match times being drastically cut which... has not improved the show at all... but is an effort and at least on the right track (not that long matches are bad in themselves, they can be good, but WWE when every show had 20-30 minute meaningless boring matches was dreadful). NXT has also been changed towards this effort and they've already managed to find a few gems which wouldn't have been found under HHH as he'd judge them "too green" and keep them locked up in the Performance Centre for years.  

[Viper]

Oh please, I brought this up on another forum awhile back about people suddenly acting like Cena was something special since he's been gone. I'm not "behind the times", I'm apparently the only one still seeing clearly, I'm the one that hasn't forgotten the absolute pile of shit we had to endure for 10 years straight, and my opinion wasn't going to change on that just because he was gone, I was happy he was gone...I never once missed Cena, he never brought anything to the table that was missing as WWE's problems are far bigger than him...bringing him back and shoving him back in Main Events solves nothing. It's just John Cena in another main event. Woopty doo! When the day comes that the man wins his 17th WWE Championship it will NOT be something to celebrate about just because time has passed in his time as Champion. It's not my fault people have forgotten how bad Cena was...that doesn't put me "behind the times", it doesn't work that way. Cena the greatest wrestler of the modern era...LMAO not even remotely possible. 

 

But again, I gave Cena praise where he actually deserves it...as a character and on the mic (when he's being serious, when he's being cartoonish and "funny" it's embarrassing). Yeah I come from a time when Cena's hate was at an all time high, I was a part of that for very good reason...but unlike you, I never forgot what I was put through as a fan, with him...and I never will. Him having a decent reign with the US Title...which again his good matches were because of his opponent, and not him...just means I can say he had a good run as US Champion, not that he's suddenly a good wrestler. 

 

Roman Reigns on the other hand, I've seen his entire career up to November of 2019, so I don't know where you're getting that I said I haven't "seen much of him". The only thing I haven't seen is his current run with his current heel gimmick. I admitted to that. But again, a gimmick changes doesn't suddenly make you great in the ring. Which is what I've been talking about this whole time...in ring work. Because that's whats important to me, everything else is secondary. I gravitated to NXT because of the amazing in ring action, once that clearly started to decline I stopped watching that too...I gravitate towards AEW for the same reason. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy good storylines and good promos as much as the next guy. But I watch wrestling....for the wrestling. Cena and Reigns were always detriment in that area, and my opinion isn't just going to change because they had a hiatus. 

[Glorious Fury]

1 hour ago, Viper said:

Oh please, I brought this up on another forum awhile back about people suddenly acting like Cena was something special since he's been gone. I'm not "behind the times", I'm apparently the only one still seeing clearly, I'm the one that hasn't forgotten the absolute pile of shit we had to endure for 10 years straight, and my opinion wasn't going to change on that just because he was gone, I was happy he was gone...I never once missed Cena, he never brought anything to the table that was missing as WWE's problems are far bigger than him...bringing him back and shoving him back in Main Events solves nothing. It's just John Cena in another main event. Woopty doo! When the day comes that the man wins his 17th WWE Championship it will NOT be something to celebrate about just because time has passed in his time as Champion. It's not my fault people have forgotten how bad Cena was...that doesn't put me "behind the times", it doesn't work that way. Cena the greatest wrestler of the modern era...LMAO not even remotely possible. 

 

But again, I gave Cena praise where he actually deserves it...as a character and on the mic (when he's being serious, when he's being cartoonish and "funny" it's embarrassing). Yeah I come from a time when Cena's hate was at an all time high, I was a part of that for very good reason...but unlike you, I never forgot what I was put through as a fan, with him...and I never will. Him having a decent reign with the US Title...which again his good matches were because of his opponent, and not him...just means I can say he had a good run as US Champion, not that he's suddenly a good wrestler. 

 

Roman Reigns on the other hand, I've seen his entire career up to November of 2019, so I don't know where you're getting that I said I haven't "seen much of him". The only thing I haven't seen is his current run with his current heel gimmick. I admitted to that. But again, a gimmick changes doesn't suddenly make you great in the ring. Which is what I've been talking about this whole time...in ring work. Because that's whats important to me, everything else is secondary. I gravitated to NXT because of the amazing in ring action, once that clearly started to decline I stopped watching that too...I gravitate towards AEW for the same reason. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy good storylines and good promos as much as the next guy. But I watch wrestling....for the wrestling. Cena and Reigns were always detriment in that area, and my opinion isn't just going to change because they had a hiatus. 

 

I think Cena is much better in ring than he's given credit for.....however I do somewhat agree with what you're saying in other areas.

 

Cena was way too forced, rather than being 'bad'. I enjoyed Cena between 2015 - 2017, as he wasn't as front and centre as he was in the past. However, Cena was making WWE serious bank between his prime years, so he'll always hold those prominent positions over others at that time. 

 

In-ring work is honestly quite subjective to the person and only part of the overall package of a wrestler. I've never really cared for some technicans like Zack Sabre Jr, despite him being very technically sound and inventive in-ring. I don't enjoy some wrestlers like Ricochet in-ring too despite athetically being incredibly impressive. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Glorious Fury

[Viper]

27 minutes ago, Glorious Fury said:

 

I think Cena is much better in ring than he's given credit for.....however I do somewhat agree with what you're saying in other areas.

 

Cena was way too forced, rather than being 'bad'. I enjoyed Cena between 2015 - 2017, as he wasn't as front and centre as he was in the past. However, Cena was making WWE serious bank between his prime years, so he'll always hold those prominent positions over others at that time. 

 

In-ring work is honestly quite subjective to the person and only part of the overall package of a wrestler. I've never really cared for some technicans like Zack Sabre Jr, despite him being very technically sound and inventive in-ring. I don't enjoy some wrestlers like Ricochet in-ring too despite athetically being incredibly impressive. 

My issue is when you look at guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret, HBK, Undertaker, etc...they all have something very important in common. WE (the fans) chose them to be the top guys. Cena and Reigns? That was Vince telling us who to like...and it didn't work. 

 

I was a "fan" of Cena from 2002-2005. I was even an advocate of his to beat JBL for the WWE Title at WrestleMania, and I'm apparently one of those weirdos that actually liked JBL's title reign. I NEVER thought Cena was great in the ring, but at that point he was over, he worked, and it just made sense to push him. But by 2006...hindsight became a total bitch. WWE had already wore him out. He was good enough to be pushed, but he was no where near good enough to be shoved down our throats...and it just never stopped, and the more they did it, the more his shortcomings came through. So when Cena left for Hollywood, it was like a breath of fresh air to me...why everyone is coming out of the woodwork and suddenly acting like "meh, Cena wasn't that bad"...I do not share your sentiments. Him leaving doesn't suddenly make me think he was better than he really was, because all he was, was suffering. Suffering that never ended because it was just passed on to someone that has LESS going for them, and was less deserving of that top spot no one asked for. 

 

So this whole thing with me having to justify my opinion came from saying Cody is a better wrestler. From the time of Cody's "Dashing" gimmick up until becoming Stardust, Cody was great. I stand by the fact that he was more than ready to be World Heavyweight Champion after his run with the IC Title, but of course they turned him into Stardust and we all know how that went. Nowadays in AEW...Cody's booking issues aside, I would still rather watch him in a match any day over ever watching another Cena or Roman match ever again. 

[Rozalia1]

2 hours ago, Viper said:

Oh please, I brought this up on another forum awhile back about people suddenly acting like Cena was something special since he's been gone. I'm not "behind the times", I'm apparently the only one still seeing clearly, I'm the one that hasn't forgotten the absolute pile of shit we had to endure for 10 years straight, and my opinion wasn't going to change on that just because he was gone, I was happy he was gone...I never once missed Cena, he never brought anything to the table that was missing as WWE's problems are far bigger than him...bringing him back and shoving him back in Main Events solves nothing. It's just John Cena in another main event. Woopty doo! When the day comes that the man wins his 17th WWE Championship it will NOT be something to celebrate about just because time has passed in his time as Champion. It's not my fault people have forgotten how bad Cena was...that doesn't put me "behind the times", it doesn't work that way. Cena the greatest wrestler of the modern era...LMAO not even remotely possible. 

 

But again, I gave Cena praise where he actually deserves it...as a character and on the mic (when he's being serious, when he's being cartoonish and "funny" it's embarrassing). Yeah I come from a time when Cena's hate was at an all time high, I was a part of that for very good reason...but unlike you, I never forgot what I was put through as a fan, with him...and I never will. Him having a decent reign with the US Title...which again his good matches were because of his opponent, and not him...just means I can say he had a good run as US Champion, not that he's suddenly a good wrestler. 

 

Roman Reigns on the other hand, I've seen his entire career up to November of 2019, so I don't know where you're getting that I said I haven't "seen much of him". The only thing I haven't seen is his current run with his current heel gimmick. I admitted to that. But again, a gimmick changes doesn't suddenly make you great in the ring. Which is what I've been talking about this whole time...in ring work. Because that's whats important to me, everything else is secondary. I gravitated to NXT because of the amazing in ring action, once that clearly started to decline I stopped watching that too...I gravitate towards AEW for the same reason. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy good storylines and good promos as much as the next guy. But I watch wrestling....for the wrestling. Cena and Reigns were always detriment in that area, and my opinion isn't just going to change because they had a hiatus. 

 

Ironic coming from me as I could be said to be "behind the times" myself, but what you're saying there is exactly what someone who is behind the times would say. I'm not behind the times, I'm just one of the few who hasn't gone crazy. Look, I get the hate, even I have gotten angry at Cena going over people. I can recall being angry at Cena, post getting obliterated by Lesnar (in Bryan's place), who the RAW after destroyed the Wyatt family so badly that Wyatt was kept away from TV for a good period to get the stink off him. Thing you have to realise is that most of the haters of John Cena hated him while within that context of him being on top and going over everybody. Now outside the context many realise that he did not in fact "suck". Even the likes of CM Punk, not known for his humbleness, realised after the fact that Cena (and Rock) getting the top spot over him was the correct move. You also have to understand that Cena is what you might say is the "last draw". Shows that had Cena always did better than shows that didn't. Cena's presence was one of the things (I'd credit Bryan at his hottest as the other) that kept WWE afloat during the horrible Authority saga, a heel monster that even Super Cena couldn't put an end to (well he did, for a few weeks because WWE). When Cena in essence retired WWE's numbers completely collapsed. 

 

As for a 17th reign and returns... WWE for who knows what reason has been sabotaging Cena every time he does them a favour and returns. Cena loses constantly now and is made to look weak when he shouldn't be, ironic as Cena's former haters now hate that he jobs all the time now rather than winning. Again, I think HHH is to blame. HHH is such a Ric Flair mark that I'm sure he politics to screw Cena and has been at it for some time. 

 

An alignment change can have a profound effect on how good you are in the ring actually. Face Reigns had to sell a whole lot Cena style and generally didn't get to show his stuff all that well ultimately. Heel Reigns is dominant and punishes opponents, something he is very good at. As for your talk on ring work... see, thing is, you'd have to expand on what exactly is good ring work to you for me to know if you even know what you're talking about. Too many people think good ringwork is being able to do 630 spinning 4D shooting star moonsault exploding presses. In actuality the list of people who have good ringwork is smaller than you likely think. How many guys in AEW do you think have good ring work? Now have them throw a punch and you'll notice they can't, hence the overwhelming amount of forearms you see perhaps... which look horrible too. Good ringwork is well executed (looks real) work that flows and makes sense within the match. This is why FTR are among the best of the best while the likes of Young Bucks, Lucha Brothers, you get the idea are trash in the ring as they're just spot monkeys.

 

59 minutes ago, Viper said:

My issue is when you look at guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock, Bret, HBK, Undertaker, etc...they all have something very important in common. WE (the fans) chose them to be the top guys. Cena and Reigns? That was Vince telling us who to like...and it didn't work. 

 

I was a "fan" of Cena from 2002-2005. I was even an advocate of his to beat JBL for the WWE Title at WrestleMania, and I'm apparently one of those weirdos that actually liked JBL's title reign. I NEVER thought Cena was great in the ring, but at that point he was over, he worked, and it just made sense to push him. But by 2006...hindsight became a total bitch. WWE had already wore him out. He was good enough to be pushed, but he was no where near good enough to be shoved down our throats...and it just never stopped, and the more they did it, the more his shortcomings came through. So when Cena left for Hollywood, it was like a breath of fresh air to me...why everyone is coming out of the woodwork and suddenly acting like "meh, Cena wasn't that bad"...I do not share your sentiments. Him leaving doesn't suddenly make me think he was better than he really was, because all he was, was suffering. Suffering that never ended because it was just passed on to someone that has LESS going for them, and was less deserving of that top spot no one asked for. 

 

So this whole thing with me having to justify my opinion came from saying Cody is a better wrestler. From the time of Cody's "Dashing" gimmick up until becoming Stardust, Cody was great. I stand by the fact that he was more than ready to be World Heavyweight Champion after his run with the IC Title, but of course they turned him into Stardust and we all know how that went. Nowadays in AEW...Cody's booking issues aside, I would still rather watch him in a match any day over ever watching another Cena or Roman match ever again. 

 

Who says the fans didn't choose Cena? From what I recall Cena wasn't even the guy they wanted to go with, instead they wanted to go with Batista. People were however far more into Cena than they were Batista and so they ultimately then went with Cena. The hate would come later as they booked Cena over established popular heels one after another completely not caring what fan reaction would be... in hindsight considering I mentioned Valiant and Jones... they perhaps should have kept JBL active against Cena and serving as a manager to Cena's opponents, not popular heels mostly with a a popular one sprinkled in now and then. 

 

You wouldn't be the only one here. I enjoyed JBL and his reign too. The perfect example of a Paper champion and there was some narrative sense in having all those veterans and big names be unable to take the title from JBL due to whatever shenanigans that would happen, but then the inexperienced John Cena would soundly defeat JBL, who was alone at Wrestlemania as he believed he didn't need help to take down Cena. Then the month after JBL put over Cena again in an absolute bloodbath. 

 

As for Cody. Stardust I believe was in fact his own idea and he was for it, they just wouldn't let him out of it for whatever reason when he wanted out after his father died. Oddly I seem to recall rumours at the time being that WWE tried to keep Cody around by offering him lots of money and even the WWE championship, but Cody turned it down as he didn't want to be seen to be taking advantage of his father's death... but then... they certainly weren't going to make Stardust champion if they weren't allowing him to drop the Stardust gimmick so it must have been nonsense. 

Over all I have been a fan of Cody's work myself, but there certainly is an air of wrongness to it all in AEW. Him turning heel and likely into a full on HHH tribute act won't solve the issues people have with him. Personally? His best use as a heel would be for him, his Nightmare Family stable, +hired guns Cody "brings in", to job to AEW Champion Hangman Adam Page for 6 months. Such a thing would I think help clear away the negativity surrounding him in the fan's minds. Cody having a long period in the main event trying to win the title for his stable and being completely unable to do so.