Can we all agree this game is still a classic and better than Part II?

[kdogg_gamer_]

20 hours ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

I think the whole point was to make Abby into the worst villain the series has seen in the first few hours, then spend the rest of the game trying to build her up and find a way to redeem her a little in the fans eyes.  It's uncomfortable, it was a bold af move on Naughty Dog's part.  I think it worked, and even if it didn't they get my respect for doing the opposite of playing it safe.  They just underestimated how petty and stubborn gamers are though, and it came on the heels of quite a bit of controversy prior to release (the dev crunch, LGBTQ stuff, leaks, etc) so the story and the risks they took became an easy target for anyone with an axe to grind.

I find it funny that so many hate Abby when Ellie and Abby are very similar and have done similar things. Lol

[Starcade_Legend]

Well, according to the ‘IMPORTANT’ pundits out there, TLoU1 was just your generic run-of-the-mill straight Anglo Saxon male that thinks the world revolves around him.  While its sequel is full of life & diversity, more women leading the story, and white men dying early, lacking testosterone (Tommy), or losing all degree of sensibility or decency (I have no idea WHAT was flowing through Owen’s mind to inspire him to stick his penis...wherever he stuck it).
 

It’s a win for TLoU2 over GoT as well, although the sales after week 1 don’t show it.  Why?  Because...Anita Sarkeesian said so, damnit!  ?

Edited July 30, 2020 by Starcade_Legend
Grammar/Punctuation

[ARH65512]

Perhaps I worded wrong with my post and should’ve just titled it 1 vs 2. Yeah you’re right not everyone is going to agree but that was kind of an exaggeration. But still worded wrong.

 

As for this post, I’ve had a plethora of problems with the sequel. I feel so much has been said that I don’t need to repeat it. Plus I’m on my phone and I would rather wait and give a lot of lot of details when I get to my computer.

 

So apologies to my post.

 

 

 

[Jake-TheGreat97]

I remember when I first beat the original game 7 years ago, I couldn't get it out of my head. The game was probably one of the most memorable games that I have ever played. As soon as I finished my first playthrough, I immediately wanted to play the game all over again. In fact, I beat the game three times within the span of a month. The same can't be said for the sequel. My initial reaction after beating the game was disappointment. I honestly didn't play the game ever again. However, I'm glad that I playedthrough the game for a second time. During my second play through I picked up certain story details that you don't notice during your first playthrough. I also had a better understanding of what they were trying to accomplish with the story. That being said, the story for the second game is no where near as good as the first. And no I'm not just saying that because of a certain scene that happens within the first two hours. My main problem is that the sequel is way too overstuffed. The original game had perfect pacing, where as the sequel does not. I also thought that this lead to most of the characters in the second game to feel underdeveloped. One thing that I'm not seeing many other people mention when discussing the second game is its lack of memorable moments. Even to this day there are numerous scenes from the first game that still stick with me. These include the opening scene, the section in Boston, the section in Pittsburgh, the middle and ending portions of the fall section, the entire winter section, and of course the ending. By comparison there are very few moments in the second game that are as memorable as parts from the first game. That being said, I don't hate the second game. In fact, I love the improvements that they made to the gameplay. Overall, that's all I have to say on the matter. I look forward to some user to inevitably ruin this thread by posting something toxic and getting this thread shut down like half the other threads discussing this game.

[StraightVege]

Nope; I found the sequel to be vastly superior from a gameplay perspective, and the story impacted me in ways the original didn't (I'm still thinking about that scene on the porch). Seeing things from the supposed villains' point of view is what made the experience so interesting to me—I quickly went from wanting bloody revenge, to realizing that Abby has more in common with Joel and Ellie than any of them would like to admit.

 

My main issue with the game is the pacing. The original was a tighter experience, where it felt like every section belonged, whereas the TLoU II is a fair bit bloated. I think it could stand to have several hours cut without detriment. Also, it suffered from a lack of the greatest Last of Us character: Bill.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by ScarecrowsFate

[Jake-TheGreat97]

On 7/30/2020 at 7:02 AM, ScarecrowsFate said:

Nope; I found the sequel to be vastly superior from a gameplay perspective, and the story impacted me in ways the original didn't (I'm still thinking about that scene on the porch). Seeing things from the supposed villains' point of view is what made the experience so interesting to me—I quickly went from wanting bloody revenge, to realizing that Abby has more in common with Joel and Ellie than any of them would like to admit.

 

My main issue with the game is the pacing. The original was a tighter experience, where it felt like every section belonged, whereas the TLoU II is a fair bit bloated. I think it could stand to have several hours cut without detriment. Also, it suffered from a lack of the greatest Last of Us character: Bill.

 

I did like the scene on the porch, although I don't think that it has the same impact that the first game's ending had which pretty much ends with a lie. I also didn't mind playing as Abby during my fist playthough as I thought it was neat to see her perspective and was under the impression that her section wouldn't last that long. However, as soon as I realized that her portion of the game was as long as Ellie's, I kinda just wanted the whole thing to end. This is because I wanted to see the rest of the confrontation at the theater. I think switching back and forth between Ellie and Abby in chronological order would have helped the pacing. 

[dieselmanchild]

On 7/29/2020 at 5:18 PM, kdogg_gamer_ said:

I find it funny that so many hate Abby when Ellie and Abby are very similar and have done similar things. Lol

This is how I feel about the people who suddenly hate Joel, or are trying to argue that he’s an “inherently evil” character in order to justify their love for TLoU2.
 

I’ve literally seen multiple people say this (particularly on Reddit) and it is baffling to me. People universally loved Joel after the first game, and most people even agreed with his decision at the end of that game, despite the consequences of saving Ellie. Seeing people turning against him now just to justify Abby’s actions and validate their love for her character (for those who like her) really fucking pisses me off, to be frank lol.

 

I thought both games did a good job showing that with the breakdown of society, a lot of good people are driven to do bad things in order to survive. The world becomes a cold, unforgiving place, and people who cannot adapt to the new rules of the world simply won’t make it. Joel, Ellie, and Abby, along with everyone else, are complex human beings and have all done terrible, unspeakable things at one point or another, but that doesn’t necessarily make them bad people.

 

I think in both games there is also a very clear difference between the characters you play as, and the truly evil people you encounter in various groups — the ones who truly revel in the chaos and violence, who rape and murder for sport rather than survival. And it’s very clear in the first game that Joel, despite being a broken, hardened man desensitized to years of violence, is deep down a good person with a good heart. He may have done monstrous things at times, but he is not a monster.

 

It IS possible to like The Last of Us 2 and still mourn Joel’s death, you know... You can understand why his death came about, and acknowledge that actions have consequences, violence begets violence, and yet still feel deep sadness at the loss of such a great character. 
 

I don’t know why some people can’t seem to understand this.

[kdogg_gamer_]

15 minutes ago, dieselmanchild said:

This is how I feel about the people who suddenly hate Joel, or are trying to argue that he’s an “inherently evil” character in order to justify their love for TLoU2.
 

I’ve literally seen multiple people say this (particularly on Reddit) and it is baffling to me. People universally loved Joel after the first game, and most people even agreed with his decision at the end of that game, despite the consequences of saving Ellie. Seeing people turning against him now just to justify Abby’s actions and validate their love for her character (for those who like her) really fucking pisses me off, to be frank lol.

 

I thought both games did a good job showing that with the breakdown of society, a lot of good people are driven to do bad things in order to survive. The world becomes a cold, unforgiving place, and people who cannot adapt to the new rules of the world simply won’t make it. Joel, Ellie, and Abby, along with everyone else, are complex human beings and have all done terrible, unspeakable things at one point or another, but that doesn’t necessarily make them bad people.

 

I think in both games there is also a very clear difference between the characters you play as, and the truly evil people you encounter in various groups — the ones who truly revel in the chaos and violence, who rape and murder for sport rather than survival. And it’s very clear in the first game that Joel, despite being a broken, hardened man desensitized to years of violence, is deep down a good person with a good heart. He may have done monstrous things at times, but he is not a monster.

 

It IS possible to like The Last of Us 2 and still mourn Joel’s death, you know... You can understand why his death came about, and acknowledge that actions have consequences, violence begets violence, and yet still feel deep sadness at the loss of such a great character. 
 

I don’t know why some people can’t seem to understand this.

The reason why I turned on him honestly is because we didn't see the outcome of his actions of the fireflies he killed. We didnt get to know that side of it and we wanted to save Ellie as much as he did, however after seeing the pain and anguish he caused and the fact that Ellie quite honestly agrees with Abby (that he shouldn't have done it) it hit me like a train. He is a villain or at the very least a Thanos type that wants to the do what he believes but in the wrong way. And to be clear I dont hate him or think he is inherently evil but he is a villain.

Edited August 1, 2020 by kdogg_gamer_

[Lezonidas]

I liked Part II more than the first one, but it might be because I played the first one in 2017 instead of playing it when it was released. In my opinion both are "must have"

[DarkCrusader091]

I love both games but I agree Part I is better. Part I did set an incredibly high bar though.

[Carol]

I love both games and I can’t even choose a favorite, because they are so different, in terms of tone. It’s like each one of them takes half of my heart. Part II, however, is much deeper and meaningful in terms of messages that you can take from it. For me, it also represents the highest level of quality a videogame can reach. I can’t stop thinking about how Part II is an incredible achievement! They are both masterpieces and they are both priceless for me.

If I was a Naughty Dog fan before, than I am even more now. I am sure that only Naughty Dog is able to build such emotional journeys in such a fascinating world and with such fantastic gameplay. But, yeah, I am a ND fan for a reason: their games touch me personally in a way no others can.

[communistwookiee]

I replayed the first game right before starting the second. Both have their merits and I absolutely love them both. I see them as a singular thing.

[dieselmanchild]

5 hours ago, kdogg_gamer_ said:

The reason why I turned on him honestly is because we didn't see the outcome of his actions of the fireflies he killed. We didnt get to know that side of it and we wanted to save Ellie as much as he did, however after seeing the pain and anguish he caused and the fact that Ellie quite honestly agrees with Abby (that he shouldn't have done it) it hit me like a train. He is a villain or at the very least a Thanos type that wants to the do what he believes but in the wrong way. And to be clear I dont hate him or think he is inherently evil but he is a villain.

Which Fireflies he killed?
 

Idk about you but I remember stealthing through almost the entire hospital (it’s a stealth game after all) and then killing a surgeon who pulled a scalpel on me first, before rescuing Ellie out of a mouldy operating theater that looked like a 3rd world back alley abortion clinic. So I’m not gonna lie - it kinda irks me that Joel brutally slaughtering most of the Fireflies and Abby’s saint-of-a-father is now the official canon for the story lol.
 

What about the pain and anguish caused by Ellie? Or Abby? Or any other beloved character we love? Don’t you think there’s also a ripple effect to their actions and the people they slaughtered without a second thought? Or do their actions just not matter because Naughty Dog hasn’t yet made a Part 3 where they show the outcome of those actions and make you feel sympathetic towards their many nameless victims & their families who have to deal with the aftermath?
 

Part of what made the ending to the first game so great was the moral ambiguity. Joel does something terrible and selfish, but for good reasons, and it’s left up to the player to decide how they feel about it. And people almost universally felt Joel made the exact same choice they would have in that situation. But in Part 2 it’s like that grey scenario has been repainted in black and white, and most of the game is spent convincing the player what Joel did was actually unforgivable, and that he’s a terrible person.
 

This is undoubtedly one of the big reasons a lot of people hated the game, and it’s just sad to me that people can be so easily manipulated into forgetting the entire first half of the story — enough to literally hate Joel and feel like he deserved being tortured to death. Seeing the devastating consequences of Joel’s actions up close and understanding he’s not quite the hero we made him out to be is fine, but I just can’t believe all the hatred and vitriol I’ve seen directed towards him by fans of Part 2. All these people who have “turned against him” as you say, but don’t hesitate to justify the brutal actions of other characters in the story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kdogg_gamer_]

18 hours ago, dieselmanchild said:

Which Fireflies he killed?
 

Idk about you but I remember stealthing through almost the entire hospital (it’s a stealth game after all) and then killing a surgeon who pulled a scalpel on me first, before rescuing Ellie out of a mouldy operating theater that looked like a 3rd world back alley abortion clinic. So I’m not gonna lie - it kinda irks me that Joel brutally slaughtering most of the Fireflies and Abby’s saint-of-a-father is now the official canon for the story lol.
 

What about the pain and anguish caused by Ellie? Or Abby? Or any other beloved character we love? Don’t you think there’s also a ripple effect to their actions and the people they slaughtered without a second thought? Or do their actions just not matter because Naughty Dog hasn’t yet made a Part 3 where they show the outcome of those actions and make you feel sympathetic towards their many nameless victims & their families who have to deal with the aftermath?
 

Part of what made the ending to the first game so great was the moral ambiguity. Joel does something terrible and selfish, but for good reasons, and it’s left up to the player to decide how they feel about it. And people almost universally felt Joel made the exact same choice they would have in that situation. But in Part 2 it’s like that grey scenario has been repainted in black and white, and most of the game is spent convincing the player what Joel did was actually unforgivable, and that he’s a terrible person.
 

This is undoubtedly one of the big reasons a lot of people hated the game, and it’s just sad to me that people can be so easily manipulated into forgetting the entire first half of the story — enough to literally hate Joel and feel like he deserved being tortured to death. Seeing the devastating consequences of Joel’s actions up close and understanding he’s not quite the hero we made him out to be is fine, but I just can’t believe all the hatred and vitriol I’ve seen directed towards him by fans of Part 2. All these people who have “turned against him” as you say, but don’t hesitate to justify the brutal actions of other characters in the story.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with some of your points absolutely. I murdered all the Fireflies in the hospital. Lol but I hope Part 3 is Abby meets the remaining Fireflies and goes to get Abby and gives her the chance Joel didnt which is to make her life matter and give herself up for the possible cure. I do think Joel is a villain but he isnt a terrible person. Hes definitely flawed. I like that they showed Ellie in a not so favorable light, and I truly did like Abby as a person she is loyal and a badass. Part 2 didnt hit me the same way emotionally but I believe that is because the first was about love (Joel love for Ellie as his own daughter) and that hit me because I am not comfortable with love, but Part 2 I was not getting hit emotionally because in my life experience i am very very much comfortable with anger and hate and I had been exposed to that most of my life. I love your take on it and thought process behind it though!

[jonesey46]

On 8/2/2020 at 4:14 AM, dieselmanchild said:

Which Fireflies he killed?
 

Idk about you but I remember stealthing through almost the entire hospital (it’s a stealth game after all) and then killing a surgeon who pulled a scalpel on me first, before rescuing Ellie out of a mouldy operating theater that looked like a 3rd world back alley abortion clinic. So I’m not gonna lie - it kinda irks me that Joel brutally slaughtering most of the Fireflies and Abby’s saint-of-a-father is now the official canon for the story lol.
 

What about the pain and anguish caused by Ellie? Or Abby? Or any other beloved character we love? Don’t you think there’s also a ripple effect to their actions and the people they slaughtered without a second thought? Or do their actions just not matter because Naughty Dog hasn’t yet made a Part 3 where they show the outcome of those actions and make you feel sympathetic towards their many nameless victims & their families who have to deal with the aftermath?
 

Part of what made the ending to the first game so great was the moral ambiguity. Joel does something terrible and selfish, but for good reasons, and it’s left up to the player to decide how they feel about it. And people almost universally felt Joel made the exact same choice they would have in that situation. But in Part 2 it’s like that grey scenario has been repainted in black and white, and most of the game is spent convincing the player what Joel did was actually unforgivable, and that he’s a terrible person.
 

This is undoubtedly one of the big reasons a lot of people hated the game, and it’s just sad to me that people can be so easily manipulated into forgetting the entire first half of the story — enough to literally hate Joel and feel like he deserved being tortured to death. Seeing the devastating consequences of Joel’s actions up close and understanding he’s not quite the hero we made him out to be is fine, but I just can’t believe all the hatred and vitriol I’ve seen directed towards him by fans of Part 2. All these people who have “turned against him” as you say, but don’t hesitate to justify the brutal actions of other characters in the story.

 

You mentioned Reddit in your other post and having spent some time on both of the associated sub-reddits I can attest that both of them are absolute dumpster fires.

 

What I find funny is that the people who loved this game that started to hate Joel in order to justify Abby's behavior are very quick to tell people who didn't like the game "you just didn't get it" but in my opinion they didn't get it either. As soon as you put any of these characters on a pedestal, or you vilify them, you've missed the point of the game. None, absolutely none of these characters are 1 dimensional.

 

Imho I think it's absolutely genius what ND did with this game. I mean it isn't for everyone and even I absolutely hated the game when I first finished it, but to make you care about characters so much with the first game, and then tear that all down for the sequel to show the player that there are no heroes or villains in this world, and to make you, force you even, to see things from another point of view.

 

I'll say it again. The game isn't perfect by any means, and there are a few retconn-y things that I don't overly agree with but once I saw the bigger picture, I found that a lot of that stuff becomes unimportant as the over all experience is just phenomenal. 

[PhyrxianLibrarin]

On 8/1/2020 at 8:14 PM, dieselmanchild said:

Part of what made the ending to the first game so great was the moral ambiguity. Joel does something terrible and selfish, but for good reasons, and it’s left up to the player to decide how they feel about it. And people almost universally felt Joel made the exact same choice they would have in that situation. But in Part 2 it’s like that grey scenario has been repainted in black and white, and most of the game is spent convincing the player what Joel did was actually unforgivable, and that he’s a terrible person.
 

This is undoubtedly one of the big reasons a lot of people hated the game, and it’s just sad to me that people can be so easily manipulated into forgetting the entire first half of the story — enough to literally hate Joel and feel like he deserved being tortured to death. Seeing the devastating consequences of Joel’s actions up close and understanding he’s not quite the hero we made him out to be is fine, but I just can’t believe all the hatred and vitriol I’ve seen directed towards him by fans of Part 2. All these people who have “turned against him” as you say, but don’t hesitate to justify the brutal actions of other characters in the story.

 

Where are you seeing that? I've read a lot of people's praise of the Last of Us 2, and none of those people are retroactively arguing that Joel deserved what he got. At most, they're arguing that no one (especially Joel himself) should've been surprised there would be consequences to his actions at the end of the first game.

 

I think that's the whole point; just because Joel is the hero of The Last of Us 1, that doesn't make him a hero. Games aren't very good at dealing with morally grey characters; if a game even has "moral" branching story, you're always incentivized to be either 100% good or 100% bad. "Did Joel do the right thing?" should have been a question that people discussed, not just dismissed with "of course he did, because the game is about him."

[YORGOS_PB]

Classic?, Sure, better than Part 2?, Opinions