Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[Thrillhelm]

Only if Sony does. Which Sony doesn't.

 

Imagine discussions about what counts as a shuffleware game and what not, and how many games will be sacrificed for some people's petty crusade.

 

Another attempt to divide the playerbase so a few people can have their way, which would be gaining a couple of ranks while the top leaderboard largely remains the same.

 

Also nice shoehorning of an agenda into a function. Users can disable shovelware be shown (which is okay so AAA titles don't get buried on launch site) , hey lets reward them 0 points now, too. That escalated quickly.

 

[marco2001zecc]

12 minutes ago, Sikutai said:

I agree, just games under 20 % Rarity should count, everything above is Shovelware. Autopops, Stacks, Story Games without Fighting and Visual Novels shouldn't count either.

So you’re saying that about 85% of your platinum’s are shovelware?

[LastMinuteSavior]

2 minutes ago, marco2001zecc said:

So you’re saying that about 85% of your platinum’s are shovelware?

 

Careful. You're feeding a troll.

 

[TheBusToYoker]

7 minutes ago, LastMinuteSavior said:

@MoneyShotxox

Easy Platinums and Shovelware are two very different things.

Personally, I care very little about leaderboards, but in my eyes all this shovelware completely adulterates and spoils our hobby and is crippling this website.

 

@DrBloodmoney

I trust the mods to do the work right.

Also, 

 

 

Exactly!

 

 

I will be most upset if my Barbie plat isn't acknowledged....

 

[LEGOmii]

Whilst I wish Sony was a bit more interested in quality control on what they allow on their store it doesn't change the fact someone has bought these games and earned the plat. They have invested cash and time.

 

This is an evolution of the platform and ecosystem. You have to take the good with the bad. Fudging the numbers to win on leaderboards is, in my opinion, worse than padding your score with easy games to climb it. At least that was done legitimately.

[LastMinuteSavior]

@AMadScotsGuy

Chill mate, Barbie's Plat is an institution. Nobody's touching that.

 

[Kefka1986]

It would be perfect if it was an option. A leaderboard where you can toggle on and off shovelware points

[Thrillhelm]

26 minutes ago, Crispy_Oglop said:

Happy to see a zero point function put in. To be honest, it's pretty clear what is and isn't shovelware. I don't really understand why people are wringing their hands over semantics here.

Oh, is it? Why don't you tell us whats obvious shuffleware because I think people will have a different opinion on that.

[TheBusToYoker]

10 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Only if Sony does. Which Sony doesn't.

 

Imagine discussions about what counts as a shuffleware game and what not, and how many games will be sacrificed for some people's petty crusade.

 

Another attempt to divide the playerbase so a few people can have their way, which would be gaining a couple of ranks while the top leaderboard largely remains the same.

 

Also nice shoehorning of an agenda into a function. Users can disable shovelware be shown (which is okay so AAA titles don't get buried on launch site) , hey lets reward them 0 points now, too. That escalated quickly.

 

 

My agenda is addressing an issue as a trophy hunter I think is bad for the community, and thus this website. 

 

It seems rather rich your accusing me of having an agenda though, when your profile shows a clear bias towards such a function not coming to fruition.

 

This isn't about me personally and I'm sure many others gaining a few more leaderboard places. It's about fixing something again many people think is a serious issue.

[Play3GianniGreed]

Basically this is from people who are crying about their position in the leaderboard, but don't have the time or more importantly the money to buy all the easy platinum game, but still want to be one position above the others (like that is something that has value in real life). 

It's like a runner that instead of train to get better, wants the other runners get shot in the leg at the start. 

For me autopop is worse at the least with the easy game you had to play the games. 

By the way, I don't care one way or the other about the leaderboard, I play easy game too without giving a f..k to anyone, but I am really amused to see to what length some people are going for something of no value like trophies on a website. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Play3GianniGreed

[AkibaKyu]

I think the fairest way to all users is to have two leaderboards, one which counts Shovelware score and one which does not.

That way you don't disadvantage either group of players.

 

Shovelware and non-Shovelware players use this site to track their trophy progress and it's not really upto anyone to tell either group they are wrong.

[ViensDanser]

8 minutes ago, Kefka1986 said:

It would be perfect if it was an option. A leaderboard where you can toggle on and off shovelware points

A button for what ? 

No no no , they have to give 0 points that's all

[MoneyShotxox]

22 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

Nothing is perfect, but some things are more problematic than others, and doing more in making the leaderboard a redundant feature for the majority of those who use the website.

 

If you are so inclined to actively want to compete for a higher ranking on the leaderboard, you have no choice but to resort to Shovelware. This is something which can be addressed by this website. Autopops can't be, and are a core part of the PlayStation eco system anyway. 

Yeah and platinum trophies are a core part of the PlayStation eco system. To be fair it’s up to Sony who can and who can not add platinums to their games.

Sony could easily say these games are only worth 300 points compared to 1200 points. 
As such the leaderboards are designed around the Sony eco system so no game should be worth zero points. 

[mrmivo]

I voted "yes", but I feel that making this dependent on manually categorizing games is quite labor-intensive. In the long run, an automated (automatable) system, like dynamic point values that are dependent on rarity, would be more sustainable and remove the need to individually evaluate and categorize games for leaderboard calculations.

 

There has been a lot of previous debate on this subject (rarity leaderboards, etc) that I sifted through recently. It was interesting reading. I also looked at how other sites approach rarity and it's not as straight forward as I initially thought. The main difficulty is finding a balanced weight/value distribution that neither over- nor under-values certain rarities. I feel that sites with rarity leaderboards over-value very rare trophies, especially with PS+ games, though there is an important aspect of self-regulation with rarity based points. Anyway, I feel that pretty much any approach is better than stacks of one-minute games that require zero effort or time (time is a metric that is rarely brought up) having the same leaderboard value as proper games.

[TheBusToYoker]

Just now, MoneyShotxox said:

Yeah and platinum trophies are a core part of the PlayStation eco system. To be fair it’s up to Sony who can and who can not add platinums to their games.

Sony could easily say these games are only worth 300 points compared to 1200 points. 
As such the leaderboards are designed around the Sony eco system so no game should be worth zero points. 

 

That's a valid point.

 

2 minutes ago, Play3GianniGreed said:

Basically this is from people who are crying about their position in the leaderbord, but don't have the time or more importantly the money to buy all the easy platinum game, but still want to be one position above the others (like that is something that has value in real life). 

It's like a runner that instead of train to get better, wants the other runners get shot in the leg at the start. 

For me autopop is worse at the least with the easy game you had to play the games. 

By the way, I don't care one way or the other about the leaderbord, I play easy game too without giving a f..k to anyone, but I am really amused to see to what length some people are going for something of no value like trophies on a website. 

 

Why are you trying like others to attach a personal motivation to this debate that clearly only can applied to a very small minority? If anyone at all...

[Play3GianniGreed]

3 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

That's a valid point.

 

 

Why are you trying like others to attach a personal motivation to this debate that clearly only can applied to a very small minority? If anyone at all...

 

Because it's been a year of discussions, every week, with all the churches games and whatnot, it's the same peoples every time that keep making the same topic wasting everyone's time. It's obvious that for some peoples it's a personal thing. 

[The Alchemist]

5 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Oh, is it? Why don't you tell us whats obvious shuffleware because I think people will have a different opinion on that.

 

For a start, you don't seem to know the difference between shovelware and 'shuffleware', so perhaps sort that out first.

 

Secondly, it is quite obvious what falls under the category of shovelware. After all, we've seen ridiculous amounts of the shite plastered all over the site for the past year. I think we all know by now what is and isn't considered shovelware, unless you're trying to be particularly pedantic about it. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can tell 'easy' games apart from these blatant trophy apps masquerading as actual "games".

 

I trust the staff here to use common sense when it comes to this kind of thing. They seem to be doing an excellent job thus far at tagging games as shovelware to remove them from view on the front page. I'd trust them equally as much to do a job like this one should it ever come to fruition.

[mrmivo]

2 minutes ago, MoneyShotxox said:

As such the leaderboards are designed around the Sony eco system so no game should be worth zero points. 

 

It is true that ultimately it is Sony who could, and in my view: should, address this issue, but so far they have not visibly acknowledged the matter and it is unknown whether or not it is even on their radar. If we knew that it was on their laundry list, leaning back and waiting for them to get around to improving the situation would be a feasible approach. But for all we know Sony may not consider this an issue at all, and so it is reasonable that the community is looking into ways to mitigate and lessen the negative impact that these one-minute-platinum "games" have on sites like PSNP.

 

I'd prefer an automated system that is based on rarity, removing the need to manually categorize and filter games, but if the choice is between "doing nothing" or these exploitative cash grabs yielding zero value for leaderboard calculations, I feel the second approach is preferable as a stopgap. 

[TheBusToYoker]

3 minutes ago, Play3GianniGreed said:

 

Because it's been a year of discussions, every week, with all the churches games and whatnot, it's the same peoples every time that keep making the same topic wasting everyone's time. It's obvious that for some peoples it's a personal thing. 

 

That a hobby you're invested in you believe has a very serious issue you think this website can help in resolving? I don't see what is personally wrong with that.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy

[HusKy]

Let's keep the points.

Seems like the people at the top enjoy buying and playing them. Would be shame if suddenly they had no motivation to buy these games every day.

[Thrillhelm]

13 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

My agenda is addressing an issue as a trophy hunter I think is bad for the community, and thus this website. 

 

It seems rather rich your accusing me of having an agenda though, when your profile shows a clear bias towards such a function not coming to fruition.

 

This isn't about me personally and I'm sure many others gaining a few more leaderboard places. It's about fixing something again many people think is a serious issue.

So dividing a community any further is healthy then?

 

Been waiting for the stat-shame argument but guess what, take the shuffle games away and I am pretty sure you'd still have a very long way to climb to reach me in the leaderboard, I guess we'd never be on the same page. And that's after you managed to have thousands of people their points taken away.

 

"Many people think" is a strawman argument and invalid, speak for yourself and not for others.

[ScottishNub]

at this rate these fourms on shovelware is going to pass the number of shovelware games on ps4 and ps5 

[TheBusToYoker]

3 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

So dividing a community any further is healthy then?

 

Been waiting for the stat-shame argument but guess what, take the shuffle games away and I am pretty sure you'd still have a very long way to climb to reach me in the leaderboard, I guess we'd never be on the same page. And that's after you managed to have thousands of people their points taken away.

 

"Many people think" is a strawman argument and invalid, speak for yourself and not for others.

 

Are you going you going to offer anything of substance to this debate, or continue making divisive responses to me?

 

As to whether or not I'd like to have a similar position to you on the leaderboards. Sure, if I can get there without resorting to a lot of shovelware. Which I can't...

Edited October 21, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy

[Sikutai]

30 minutes ago, LastMinuteSavior said:

 

Careful. You're feeding a troll.

 

 

I'm not, and you should be ashamed to say such a thing.

[Thrillhelm]

5 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

 

For a start, you don't seem to know the difference between shovelware and 'shuffleware', so perhaps sort that out first.

 

Secondly, it is quite obvious what falls under the category of shovelware. After all, we've seen ridiculous amounts of the shite plastered all over the site for the past year. I think we all know by now what is and isn't considered shovelware, unless you're trying to be particularly pedantic about it. Anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together can tell 'easy' games apart from these blatant trophy apps masquerading as actual "games".

 

I trust the staff here to use common sense when it comes to this kind of thing. They seem to be doing an excellent job thus far at tagging games as shovelware to remove them from view on the front page. I'd trust them equally as much to do a job like this one should it ever come to fruition.

No you don't understand that this will always be debated and once that can of worms has been opened elitists demand more. Still waiting for a definition what's shovelware and whats not.

1 minute ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

Are you going you going to offer anything of substance to this debate, or continue making divisive responses to me?

Well you started the thread, I responded, you stat-shamed, I responded. And now you up the antes with further ad hominem.