Trophy Rarity Question

[X_Wizi_X]

29 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Why can't we do that? (1)You and madbuk seem more interested in the result than what the stats are supposed to represent and communicate. This is not how you do statistics. You don't start with what you want the result to be. You decide what it is you want to find out, and then you look at the results and accept them. This is why the entire 100% common or ultra rare stuff is just irrelevant. I'm just mentioning it, because it was a massive complaint in the past. It just ruined the system.

 

Remove rarity from DLCs is kinda pointless, but a more functional solution is that it doesn't play into other stats where you consider non DLC trophies too. Like the average rarity %. I'd love to see it removed from unearned trophies and completion ratio, if you haven't got a trophy from the DLC yet.

 

The "old one" just doesn't represent the DLC trophies in the same way as main game trophies, so it was always wrong and broken. Now we just have the problem of knowing if someone has played the DLC yet or not, especially in the cases where there's few and hard trophies for a DLC.

 

The other option is representing them as two different things, because that'd be the most accurate, but this is practically difficult. Until something like that is done, I don't see why we should treat DLC trophies differently than main game trophies, in the sense that we calculate them on different basis as to if we've played the content or not.

 

1) Every trophy should be calculated on how many people own the game and how many people (that own the same game) achieve that trophy. No matters if it's a main game trophy or a dlc's trophy 

If i buy a game and that game has 1 DLC, I might expect its average rarity will be calculated on how many owners achieved those trophies, not on how many owners "own" that or those dlc(s)

 

 

The Keyword is "to achieve something, to be part of rarity statistics", not just "partecipate"

Edited December 17, 2016 by X_Wizi_X

[thegirlruka]

I know I've probably said it before, but I like the way the TrueGaming Network sets up their DLCs. They have a team manually mark each DLC set as paid DLC and free/title update DLC. Paid DLC is based on the geometric mean and free DLC is based on the base game's owners. It seems like the best compromise to the black and white way it is/was on here.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Urushiro

[Happy]

4 minutes ago, Urushiro said:

I know I've probably said it before, but I like the way the TrueGaming Network sets up their DLCs. They have a team manually mark each DLC set as paid DLC and free/title update DLC. Paid DLC is based on the geometric mean and free DLC is based on the base game's owners. It seems like the best compromise to the black and white way it is/was on here.

 

While that would be the best solution, it's also a gigantic behemoth of an undertaking, can't see that happening unless Sly can get his hands on an army of volunteers. That would also raise the question of how to count DLC that can't be purchased at all anymore for whatever reason.

[MMDE]

24 minutes ago, X_Wizi_X said:

If i buy a game and that game has 1 DLC, I might expect its average rarity will be calculated on how many owners achieved those trophies, not on how many owners "own" that or those dlc(s)

 

played*

 

And why do you stop at the game level? Why not apply the same to everyone who owns the console?

What is the idea behind the stat? What is it communicating/representing? Please don't start with the conclusion.

8 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

While that would be the best solution, it's also a gigantic behemoth of an undertaking, can't see that happening unless Sly can get his hands on an army of volunteers. That would also raise the question of how to count DLC that can't be purchased at all anymore for whatever reason.

 

Free DLCs can be marked as users report it. And geometric mean is still counting unconfirmed numbers.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[thegirlruka]

10 minutes ago, Happy said:

 

While that would be the best solution, it's also a gigantic behemoth of an undertaking, can't see that happening unless Sly can get his hands on an army of volunteers. That would also raise the question of how to count DLC that can't be purchased at all anymore for whatever reason.

It actually doesn't take that many people. Counting myself, there's 21 people currently on their team for their playstation site. I'm sure there's more than that many people on here that are willing to volunteer. I'd be willing to help as well.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Urushiro

[madbuk]

2 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

played*

 

And why do you stop at the game level? Why not apply the same to everyone who owns the console?

What is the idea behind the stat? What is it communicating/representing? Please don't start with the conclusion.

We've been through this before.

 

When you buy a PS3, it doesn't add every PS3 trophy list onto your profile.

When you buy a game with DLC, it does add that DLC to your profile.

[MMDE]

8 minutes ago, madbuk said:

We've been through this before.

 

When you buy a PS3, it doesn't add every PS3 trophy list onto your profile.

When you buy a game with DLC, it does add that DLC to your profile.

 

Yes, we've heard this a million times buk, but what is the idea behind the rarity %? What is it you're trying to present/communicate? Like, what is the abstract idea, not concrete what you see on your profile. I'd like to think it's about showing the percentage of people who got the trophies of those who has played the content that allows you to get it? Counting people who hasn't played the content just isn't consistent with this. Yes, the game's DLC trophies are shown alongside the game on your profile, regardless of if you've ever played or own the DLC content. This is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean we should be inconsistent or make up numbers.

 

And as I said in chat, if you don't understand this and don't respond to it in any kind of reasonable manner, I think you're unreasonable and I'm not that interested in discussing it further with you. I love many of the other ideas and comments in this thread though. People actually trying to come up with more functional solutions.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[madbuk]

Just now, MMDE said:

 

Yes, we've heard this a million times buk, but what is the idea behind the rarity %? What is it you're trying to present/communicate? Like, what is the abstract idea, not concrete what you see on your profile. I'd like to think it's about showing the percentage of people who got the trophies of those who has played the content that allows you to get it? Counting people who hasn't played the content just isn't consistent with this. Yes, the game's DLC trophies are shown alongside the game, regardless of if you've ever played the DLC content. This is unfortunate, but that doesn't mean we should be inconsistent or make up numbers.

The rarity is supposed to show how rare a trophy is... Should be pretty self explanatory.

And as far as I'm concerned, paywall or no paywall, Grounded is a part of The Last of Us, and anybody who has played The Last of Us has played the content that Grounded mode is a part of, whether they've bought their way through the paywall or not, and should be included in the rarity.

 

Is America not a part of Earth because I have to buy a plane ticket to travel there? That's essentially what you're saying here - if you have to buy it, it doesn't exist until you've bought it, which is just wrong.

[Satoshi Ookami]

4 hours ago, Starflakes said:

 

Yes, seems that I have missed a point. I was under the impression that people who also tried got included. I forgot that when you get 0% on a game, it doesn't actually count toward your own completion. Then I can agree with what is being said. Although TLOU Grounded Mode is pretty much a freak accident as it only has two trophies. I apologize for having missed this crucial point.

 

3 hours ago, Starflakes said:

Yeah, point taken. I was under a false impression and attributed the high rated due to people on this website buying DLC for the majority just being dedicated to 100% completion. When you put it that way, you make a strong case. I agree.

I did say it twice

[X_Wizi_X]

3 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

played*

 

And why do you stop at the game level? Why not apply the same to everyone who owns the console?

What is the idea behind the stat? What is it communicating/representing? Please don't start with the conclusion.

 

Topic is called "trophy rarity question" and I'm talking about rarity statistics.

 

As I told you before, in my opinion rarity for a trophy should be calculated on "who owns ->who achieves".

 

And, on my side, if someone paid (in the past) to get an easy ultrare it's not my business.

 

 

[MMDE]

10 minutes ago, madbuk said:

The rarity is supposed to show how rare a trophy is... Should be pretty self explanatory.

And as far as I'm concerned, paywall or no paywall, Grounded is a part of The Last of Us, and anybody who has played The Last of Us has played the content that Grounded mode is a part of, whether they've bought their way through the paywall or not, and should be included in the rarity.

 

Is America not a part of Earth because I have to buy a plane ticket to travel there? That's essentially what you're saying here - if you have to buy it, it doesn't exist until you've bought it, which is just wrong.

 

"how rare a trophy is"

 

In what way? I have hundreds of trophies less than 100 people in the world got. Are those rare? Yes! But this is clearly not what we're calculating.

 

"anybody has played the game that the content is a part of"

 

Yes, they've played the game, but not necessarily the content. And TLoU was a terrible example. I think this is all grounded in your frustration about how much effort you put into that trophy and it's just a 100% common.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[Stardroid]

Just now, Satoshi Ookami said:

 

I did say it twice

It must be a language thing on my end or just confirmation bias on my end. That being known to me now, I would make rarity depend on owners of the DLC and not the game. I don't buy the 'it's part of the game'. It's a sub section of the game. I paid 60 euros for a game and a complete trophy set. I don't see why I should pay an additional fee to actually still have 100% on the game. I see DLC as sub sections of the game, which in my opinion it should be. Make it so that as soon as the DLC is bought, it counts. If you're at 0 percent, it's added into the equation. Because obviously, if it only activated when you have actually achieve a trophy, it's not pretty.

[MMDE]

4 minutes ago, X_Wizi_X said:

 

Topic is called "trophy rarity question" and I'm talking about rarity statistics.

 

As I told you before, in my opinion rarity for a trophy should be calculated on "who owns ->who achieves".

 

And, on my side, if someone paid (in the past) to get an easy ultrare it's not my business.

 

 

 

See my reply to madbuk.

 

And no, it's not about who owns. I got hundreds of games I haven't played. Should those count? We don't count them before I've played them and earned any trophies for them.

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[madbuk]

1 minute ago, MMDE said:

 

"how rare a trophy is"

 

In what way? I have hundreds of trophies less than 100 people in the world got. Are those rare? Yes! But this is clearly not what we're calculating.

 

"anybody has played the game that the content is a part of"

 

Yes, they've played the game, but not the content.

How rare a trophy is when talking about the amount of people who own the game necessary to earn it. So, for example, 142,313 people own the game that Teeth of Naros is a DLC of. As such, 142,313 people should be used when calculating the rarity of the Teeth of Naros trophies in Kingdoms of Amalur

[thegirlruka]

6 minutes ago, MMDE said:

And no, it's not about who owns. I got hundreds of games I haven't played. Should those count? We don't count them before I've played them and earned any trophies for them.

They do. See any of the 195+ F ranked games on my profile and you'll see that I'm counted toward the rarity of the trophies. Specifically, you can look at this or this and you'll see that the trophies for starting the game are not at 100% despite the fact that it is impossible to earn any other trophies first. Going to my trophy advisor will show even more trophies like this.

[Cleggworth]

There is no solution to this problem. What bothers me though it is not consistent. Rarity tries to only use people who own it. Completion % and unearned trophies include everybody. Pick one or the other

[MMDE]

9 minutes ago, Urushiro said:

They do. See any of the 195+ F ranked games on my profile and you'll see that I'm counted toward the rarity of the trophies. Specifically, you can look at this or this and you'll see that the trophies for starting the game are not at 100% despite the fact that it is impossible to earn any other trophies first. Going to my trophy advisor will show even more trophies like this.

 

This I've asked to be fixed several times in this thread. It's inconsistencies like this that makes things confusing and ruins other stats.

 

Example of me doing this, see middle of this post:

 

6 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

There is no solution to this problem. What bothers me though it is not consistent. Rarity tries to only use people who own it. Completion % and unearned trophies include everybody. Pick one or the other

 

I agree!

Edited December 17, 2016 by MMDE

[closertim]

I've kind of changed my tune on this.  I think it should be out of game owners.  Uncharted 3 is another example where completing a coop map on hard is more rarer than competing on crushing.  

 

 

[B1rvine]

5 hours ago, madbuk said:

stuff

 

5 hours ago, MMDE said:

stuff

 

From what I can see, there's only one argument from the people who don't own the DLC and don't want it included from base game numbers and it is:  "I don't own DLC, so it shouldn't be rarer just because I haven't played it and it was forced on my list."

 

From the other side, the people who have played the DLC or just want it included from base game numbers, there's tons of arguments including:

"Stuff that's harder and rarer shows up as more common or 100%, ie grounded mode."

"Stuff that's impossible to be more common show up as more common, ie mirrors edge and some stars"

"Actual numbers of people who completed it are indeed a small percentage, so UR% are indeed accurate, regardless of owners, ie any game"

"Anyone has access to the content, if they buy it, and everyone's in the same boat for it being added to their lists, other than extremely rare delistings."

"A lot of games DLC are free and/or forced to download after an update and therefore people own it, ie GTA V, TLOU Re, Minecraft.

"Overall game completion isn't listed as 100% if you don't have the DLC, so why should rarity be affected? ie any game"

 

There's TONS of problems not making them count as part of the main game, and only one problem if they're calculated on DLC ownership only, and at least that problem has a remedy. Buy it.  We have no solution to our problems the other way around.

 

TBH, I say use Sony's numbers.  Then at least everyone's in the same boat.  But if that's not going to happen, then make it based on base game owners would be my stance if you haven't figured this out.

 

 

 

 

[MMDE]

15 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

 

From what I can see, there's only one argument from the people who don't own the DLC and don't want it included from base game numbers and it is:  "I don't own DLC, so it shouldn't be rarer just because I haven't played it and it was forced on my list."

 

From the other side, the people who have played the DLC or just want it included from base game numbers, there's tons of arguments including:

"Stuff that's harder and rarer shows up as more common or 100%, ie grounded mode."

"Stuff that's impossible to be more common show up as more common, ie mirrors edge and some stars"

"Actual numbers of people who completed it are indeed a small percentage, so UR% are indeed accurate, regardless of owners, ie any game"

"Anyone has access to the content, if they buy it, and everyone's in the same boat for it being added to their lists, other than extremely rare delistings."

"A lot of games DLC are free and/or forced to download after an update and therefore people own it, ie GTA V, TLOU Re, Minecraft.

"Overall game completion isn't listed as 100% if you don't have the DLC, so why should rarity be affected? ie any game"

 

There's TONS of problems not making them count as part of the main game, and only one problem if they're calculated on DLC ownership only, and at least that problem has a remedy. Buy it.  We have no solution to our problems the other way around.

 

TBH, I say use Sony's numbers.  Then at least everyone's in the same boat.  But if that's not going to happen, then make it based on base game owners would be my stance if you haven't figured this out.

 

 

Nah, you got at least my side wrong, and I'm open for many twists and ideas.  There's definite solutions for my side as well. I also don't care about the final result. Only times I've talked about it is as a response to whining about how their DLC trophies are less rare, and I've said the result is worse the other way around, but I find this irrelevant. So yeah, this is total misrepresentation.

 

What is the idea of the rarity %? Is it not to count how many who got the trophies of those who has played what can give them the trophies? A paywall is a paywall, either it be in form of a DLC or a game. And it's not about who owns it, because I own hundreds of games that are not counted, it's about what you've played. We know someone has played the game or played the DLC when they've earned a trophy for it. Should apply to both game and DLC, but how it is applied is very inconsistent, both with main game and DLC. I want to see this fixed! Especially when it comes to counting unearned trophies or completion %.

 

If DLC trophies for DLCs you have shown no sign of having played should probably not count in on your completion ratio either. Not because this gives you higher completion %, or because DLCs are a waste of money etc, but because it should be consistent with the idea that you need to have played the content to actually count in on your stats.

 

Arguments like "you can just buy the DLC" has been debunked many times already. Here's an argumentum absurdum refutation; you can buy the game too.

 

Arguments like "there's problems with calculating who has played a DLC" is a bit more complicated, but there's basically a couple of responses:

1. That's no excuse to count it differently.
2. So you rather make up numbers?

I agree about free DLCs and patches etc, those are more complicated. As it is now, we know people have played the content, and it should be counting it the same way with games, because it does do that in some ways. Honestly, that's the real problem here, the inconsistency in how main games are counted, not the DLCs.

 

I would also theoretically prefer DLCs to be counted differently as an own tier, but this has practical issues, especially when it comes to user friendliness.

 

As you can see, I'm not looking at the result, but what I want to communicate/represent with the stats. After you have decided that, you want to make sure you do that in the best way possible with the data you got, still keeping to what you set out to represent. Don't adjust to represent something different because you don't like the results or because you have issues with lacking data. Instead, find better ways to represent it correctly. The best way would definitely be two tiers, because that's what it is. And if you do it that way, I don't care how you do it, as long as you don't mix the stats, or if you do, make sure you follow the principals of what you want to represent.

Edited December 18, 2016 by MMDE

[Midnightwards666]

I like the new addition of clearly being able to see how many % of players have got 100%. But for non-plat games with DLC, I would also like to be able to see how many % have got all non-DLC trophies, which at the moment, is not possible. For example, games like this: https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/1459-mad-riders

[thegirlruka]

15 hours ago, B1rvine said:

From the other side, the people who have played the DLC or just want it included from base game numbers, there's tons of arguments including:

"Stuff that's harder and rarer shows up as more common or 100%, ie grounded mode."

"Stuff that's impossible to be more common show up as more common, ie mirrors edge and some stars"

"Actual numbers of people who completed it are indeed a small percentage, so UR% are indeed accurate, regardless of owners, ie any game"

"Anyone has access to the content, if they buy it, and everyone's in the same boat for it being added to their lists, other than extremely rare delistings."

"A lot of games DLC are free and/or forced to download after an update and therefore people own it, ie GTA V, TLOU Re, Minecraft.

"Overall game completion isn't listed as 100% if you don't have the DLC, so why should rarity be affected? ie any game"

I thought the main argument was "Installing the trophy list also installs the DLC trophy list so it should be counted from the install base of the list just like how base game rarity is."

[madbuk]

43 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Nah, you got at least my side wrong, and I'm open for many twists and ideas.  There's definite solutions for my side as well. I also don't care about the final result. Only times I've talked about it is as a response to whining about how their DLC trophies are less rare, and I've said the result is worse the other way around, but I find this irrelevant. So yeah, this is total misrepresentation.

 

1. What is the idea of the rarity %? Is it not to count how many who got the trophies of those who has played what can give them the trophies? A paywall is a paywall, either it be in form of a DLC or a game. And it's not about who owns it, because I own hundreds of games that are not counted, it's about what you've played. We know someone has played the game or played the DLC when they've earned a trophy for it. Should apply to both game and DLC, but how it is applied is very inconsistent, both with main game and DLC. I want to see this fixed! Especially when it comes to counting unearned trophies or completion %.

 

2. If DLC trophies for DLCs you have shown no sign of having played should probably not count in on your completion ratio either. Not because this gives you higher completion %, or because DLCs are a waste of money etc, but because it should be consistent with the idea that you need to have played the content to actually count in on your stats.

 

Arguments like "you can just buy the DLC" has been debunked many times already. Here's an argumentum absurdum refutation; 3. you can buy the game too.

 

Arguments like "there's problems with calculating who has played a DLC" is a bit more complicated, but there's basically a couple of responses:

1. That's no excuse to count it differently.
2. 4. So you rather make up numbers?

I agree about free DLCs and patches etc, those are more complicated. As it is now, we know people have played the content, and it should be counting it the same way with games, because it does do that in some ways. Honestly, that's the real problem here, the inconsistency in how main games are counted, not the DLCs.

 

I would also theoretically prefer DLCs to be counted differently as an own tier, but this has practical issues, especially when it comes to user friendliness.

 

As you can see, I'm not looking at the result, but what I want to communicate/represent with the stats. After you have decided that, you want to make sure you do that in the best way possible with the data you got, still keeping to what you set out to represent. Don't adjust to represent something different because you don't like the results or because you have issues with lacking data. Instead, find better ways to represent it correctly. The best way would definitely be two tiers, because that's what it is. And if you do it that way, I don't care how you do it, as long as you don't mix the stats, or if you do, make sure you follow the principals of what you want to represent.

1. Yes, so surely we should be counting everyone who has played Mirror's Edge - the game that the Pure Time Trials DLC is a part of - towards the calculation of DLC rarity?

2. This is a disgusting idea for multiple reasons and could be a catalyst to me leaving the site entirely (apart from the forums maybe). Why shouldn't a part of a game you've played be counted? Teeth of Naros is a part of Kingdoms of Amalur. It's basically just a whole new map on an existing game, thus if you have played Kingdoms of Amalur, Teeth of Naros should count towards all your stats and you should count towards rarity calculation, regardless of whether you've bought your way through the paywall or not.

3. For the thousandth time, when you buy a PS3, it doesn't install every PS3 game onto your trophy list. Also, it's hardly comparable to something like a DLC pack which is a direct addition to an existing game.

4. The current method is making up numbers. The old method wasn't making up any numbers.

[thegirlruka]

Maybe @Sly Ripper should start a poll and see if it's as one-sided as the square vs. circle avatars poll

Edited December 18, 2016 by Urushiro

[Cleggworth]

How do advocates of 'owner only' method feel about multiplayer trophies? PS4 multiplayer trophies, in the most part, are behind a paywall like DLC. If I don't pay for plus I don't have the ability to earn those trophies so I am not an 'owner' of that content even if those multiplayer trophies are part of the base games list. Would these be excluded from this rarity stat in the same way as DLC?