Vita CFW users should be banned?

[temp-910724]

55 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

@DaivRules @ProfBambam55 @starcrunch061

 

After talking to Bam a bit, I've come up with this...  Perhaps the answer is to create different kinds of leaderboards and allow users to enter which set of rules they'd like to compete by.  I can appreciate all of your opinions with agreeing with them.

 

But several people want a competition that's completely "clean", and since the rules attempt to do that now, it wouldn't be fair to anyone who competes by those standards to suddenly change the rules and allow methods not compatible to the original rules, etc, and vice versa, especially if they always have the potential to change. If you all remember, there were originally "clean" and "dirty" leaderboards.  

 

What is a completely clean leaderboard? Some people believe using a the debug menu on Jak 2 is cheating, some people believe using a proxy on AvP is cheating, some people believe teams are cheating, some people believe exploits are cheating, some people believe boosting is cheating, some people believe doing other region games is cheating. A singular leaderboard is created so everyone can follow the same rules. 

I personally believed that boosting trophies was illegitimate for a long time, but I realised if everyone is following the same set rules, I'm not getting an advantage over anybody.

 

I have been reading the thread for quite some time, this thread seems a lot more hostile than the gone spy one. 

 

I also see a lot of people saying people with CFW will use CFW to pop trophies which I find weird. Are there a lot of cases where somebody was caught using CFW well? The cases I have seen of this are fairly obvious where they wanted a shit ton of trophies or they probably just paid someone to get the last trophy for x game they couldn't do. 

 

[ProfBambam55]

I want a leaderboard with trophies earned through no boosting for certain games (some devs frown upon it and even ban players), no one has access to multiple regions by providing false information (violation of ToS), everyone must play using the same patches (unfair advantage), no glitches may be exploited (not how the devs intended the trophies to be earned unless stated formally otherwise), no one is allowed to earn a trophy for a game till all content and dlc have been released (unfair advantage to fastest achievers) in all regions, no online trophies (not everyone has access to stable internet - unfair advantage), no trophies guides (unfair advantage -  again, internet access required), no one can play more than 2 hours and only 6 days/week (unfair advantage to anyone that can play more than me - those are the only times I can guarantee in any given week), you must spend over $200 every month on games (that's how I roll - get a job if you don't like it - kids hungry?...too bad), and that are platform specific (I don't have a vita so let's just remove all vita titles - unfair advantage)...i'll add more things as they come up that are against my personal rules...this will be called "clean"...oh, and we're also going to disallow people from countries that have same-sex marriages to appear on the leaderboards...we're old school...we wrote your damn rules and we don't change them to suit anyone but us...y'all can sort out whatever settings you want for your "dirty" leaderboards that are different from mine...

 

ninja'd...yes, I'm joking but you do understand how this idea looks from the outside, right?...well, I and certain other people might be against popular opinion so let's just divide the community...cool?...we don't want to be compared to you guys anyhow...we're too competitive and obviously you guys are not...elitism anyone?...

 

edit : I'm gonna assume that you were just thinking up plausible solutions and perhaps just posted without giving it much thought...i'm sure we've all done it more than once...

Edited March 30, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[joskeabzu]

1 hour ago, midgetstrawdog said:

What is a completely clean leaderboard? Some people believe using a the debug menu on Jak 2 is cheating, some people believe using a proxy on AvP is cheating, some people believe teams are cheating, some people believe exploits are cheating, some people believe boosting is cheating, some people believe doing other region games is cheating. A singular leaderboard is created so everyone can follow the same rules. 

I personally believed that boosting trophies was illegitimate for a long time, but I realised if everyone is following the same set rules, I'm not getting an advantage over anybody.

 

I have been reading the thread for quite some time, this thread seems a lot more hostile than the gone spy one. 

 

I also see a lot of people saying people with CFW will use CFW to pop trophies which I find weird. Are there a lot of cases where somebody was caught using CFW well? The cases I have seen of this are fairly obvious where they wanted a shit ton of trophies or they probably just paid someone to get the last trophy for x game they couldn't do. 

 

 

Essentially what you summed up the most is idd a form of "cheating" imo. But most people are generally okay with that in a SP game. However most will probably be heavily against it in MP games which I definitely stand by as well. In my eyes yes, using a debug menu, proxy (AvP) or exploiting is cheating. Sometimes even boosting is also cheating especially in a competitive MP game as it removes the essential part what makes a game competitive against others..

However I don't have big issues with people doing that in SP because it doesn't affect others, but I will hate anyone who would use exploits in a MP PVP game it's simply not done imo. Boosting in a game depends clearly on the game so hard to say, but boosting yourself on an in-game leaderboard with impossible wins/kills is cheating and deserves a ban for life in that game.

 

Imo yes there are many ways that are essentially cheating, but one is less offensive than the other.

Edited March 30, 2018 by joskeabzu

[B1rvine]

1 hour ago, midgetstrawdog said:

What is a completely clean leaderboard?

 

Well, that’s up for debate. I brought a lot of the points you brought up before. I only brought up the term “clean” since PSNP used those terms before, not so much what defines a clean leaderboard, just that maybe we should have more than one? Or the ability to opt out?

 

1 hour ago, midgetstrawdog said:

...if everyone is following the same set of rules, I’m not getting an advantage over anybody.

I agree everyone should be on the same rules, but also beyond that. In a nutshell, without repeating my entire argument: rules should be tailored based on a “regular” gamer’s technical ability to stay as fair as possible. Ie, basically people playing games and using Sony’s accessories (when needed) and shouldn’t need a computer science degree to get fringe methods to work, etc. The rules should also protect the gamer from potential harmful experiences.  Ie, I shouldn’t have to worry about Sony’s ban hammer just to be “equal” to someone else using CFW, saves, etc. I’ve also stated I think a new rule being added should never contradict rules before it, or “trees” of exceptions grow that will eventually fracture the community. Ie you can’t suddenly be flagged by new rule.

 

1 hour ago, midgetstrawdog said:

 

I also see a lot of people saying people with CFW will use CFW to pop trophies which I find weird. Are there a lot of cases where somebody was caught using CFW well? The cases I have seen of this are fairly obvious where they wanted a shit ton of trophies or they probably just paid someone to get the last trophy for x game they couldn’t do.”

 

 

A good thousand or so CFW users have been removed, and the kind that have completely legit looking timestamps. Typically they haven’t disputed. I won’t go into the methods used to find them.

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by B1rvine

[ProfBambam55]

instead of allowing a few exceptional cases on the leaderboards by creating a new rule or modifying existing ones, let's divide the community and create new leaderboards?...i'd really be interested in seeing some numbers before we move on in this discussion...i'll create a poll in a sec and post a link to the thread here...

 

edit : poll removed as it now exists here...saves jumping back and forth...cheers...

Edited March 30, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Shadiochao]

9 hours ago, Azelais said:

It's mentioned already that utilising 3rd party software is not necessary. The important part is, like, sort of running a line of command on your vita. In this case, by sending yourself a mail. You can make use of the website pointed out in the instruction post if you want to send yourself the .ics to your own mail program on PC or your phone to take a peek for curiosity's sake.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

For reference, how to call the package installer. 


 

 

 

The original post in this topic that contained instructions said:

 

(I can't seem to quote a post from several pages back on mobile, not while also quoting other posts. That could be due to the quirky pizza ads I keep seeing ATM. Passages bolded by me.)

 

 

I think I messed it up. I earned some trophies, made the switch, but all those trophies were lost after I got the restoring trophies message. Any trophies I earned after that were added to the original account, and now nothing works because the memory card is confused.

[ScooloV]

8 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said:

@ScooloV would you consider adding a poll this this thread?...would be interesting to see numbers...

Done

[Zolkovo]

I only managed to skim through this thread so I've likely missed these points already being addressed, but if someone could re-iterate them I would greatly appreciate it.

• Isn't the whole point of disallowing save file use, edited timestamps etc to prevent an unfair advantage?
• Does everyone have equal and easy access to CFW on vita?
  • If not, then surely that is an unfair advantage in terms of region-locked digital-only games?
  • If so, then does it breach any of Sony's ToS?
• How big of a leap is it from having access to CFW to being able to pirate games?

I strongly believe piracy should be frowned upon in any industry whether it's video games, music, movies etc. And if CFW easily allows piracy, then this is not something I think should be encouraged.

[ProfBambam55]

1 hour ago, ScooloV said:

Done

cool, thanks...I'll lock the other thread then...

Edited March 30, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Vitathelife]

So CFW Vita huh? Cool aint it! Well actually there isn’t CFW on Vita, just people saying so lol. But that’s not the point is it? Before anyone will say otherwise it’s an exploit in case you’re stupid no offence.

 

Both my PS Vita and PS TV(with my PSN attached that I use on my legit PS3/PS4) are on 3.60 OFW, both are running HENkaku.  Currently I have over a hundred games installed on my SD2Vita (128GB micro-sd).  I also have about 300GB+ PS Vita games dumped even NoNPDRM that I store on an external HDD, just in case, yes I do like backups! Well some are backups of games I did bought/own so not everything is pirated haha ;),

I have already synced pirated games, which I carefully check in what region they are in and if they're available in mine, well you only have to watch out for the digital ones, right? When a game is on cartridge then that game is not a problem to sync trophies. However there are digital games that do share a trophylist with PS3, PS4 or both, well these are also the ones you can safely sync without issues as they share the same trophylist with another platform, it’s win win situation. But there are digital games that have a separate trophylist of each region they’re available in(like pointed out by the threadstarter). I can easily tell which ones do. Now those are the ones I will obviously not sync. I can still play them, no worries on my 3rd vita.

The games that I have catalogued that aren’t digital available or impossible to play on my region will never by synced to my profile. I do catalogue my games in a specific way like digital or cartridge? Which region? Available on PS3 / PS4? Available in my region? Do they share the same trophylist? Crossbuy? Etc. For example [Digital] [US Trophylist] Amnesia Memories is a game I can’t sync to my account as it has a US trophylist and is only digital, don’t worry I got a copy for my  region ;). Each game that I leech takes like a min to check and catalogue.  But there are games(as well as upcoming games in the future) that are digital only but you can buy them from Limited Run, well those are of course safe to sync lol. Because they’re physically available and nobody will know that I actually have them or not. who’s to say that I don’t? I could have borrowed them or bought them and maybe I sold them after I completed them? So how will you guys know that I or others don’t have them legally?

Now there are a few questions that I will list below, because yes People could hack trophies on Vita if wanted to,.And for the record, no I don’t have a CFW PS3 or PS4(not that CFW is available anyway, just an exploit for older firmware). Well it’s not that People can use a save to get certain trophies on those systems, right? Maybe I did who knows or maybe I don’t? Maybe I do trophies legit and maybe I don’t do others legit? Now I’m not an idiot that’s going for example use a save(set) that would screw my list up as you guys like to say in an impossible order.  Oh yes there are ways to check if they’re legit. That is a good one, but honestly that isn’t going to work for some

Will you ban people that would use CFW like this?(this is actually a multiple question based on different variables that I laid out) Oh and honestly the guys pointed out by the threadstarter probably couldn’t give a 2 shits if you would ban them, like do they even know there on here? Do they login? Well you guys gotta do what you guys gotta do, right?

Tl;dr CFW (well HENkaku Vita’s) is a no go zone, too bad it doesn’t apply to everyone who has does it correctly.. And the ones who don’t care well you know it tooi

Edited March 30, 2018 by Vitathelife

[SnowxSakura]

2 minutes ago, Vitathelife said:

Snip

I don't see why you're bragging about piracy and copyright infringement, especially as a new user on a site that greatly frowns upon illegal actions such as that. Buy your games you bum, or go to prison, either work.

[Zolkovo]

15 minutes ago, SnowxSakura said:

I don't see why you're bragging about piracy and copyright infringement, especially as a new user on a site that greatly frowns upon illegal actions such as that. Buy your games you bum, or go to prison, either work.

 

He made that account just to make his point. I hope he masked his IP, or else it's pretty easy for some of the mods to trace it back to his main account. And for sure he should be banned imo for openly admitting to piracy.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Zolkovo

[Se7en]

On 30.03.2018 at 0:46 AM, B1rvine said:

The current rule is that any use of CFW that results in trophies being affected, in any way, is flaggable, contrary to what Se7en says.

 

It’s not what “Se7en says”, it’s what is written in flagging rules, word by word. If you have a problem with current wording -- please, just say "I don't like the rules, and I propose change ____"  instead of arbitrarily interpreting the rules to expand the range of flaggable situations the way that suits your point of view.

 

If someone for leaderboard purposes likes the idea to forbid any access to region-locked Vita games -- fine, propose that to be specifically included into the rules and move on. Because everyone can have different opinion on what the rules mean, but at the end of the day we should stick to what they literally say at the moment. And considering custom firmware the rules are very clear:

Quote

Similar to using save files to auto-unlock trophies, using files and custom firmware on any console to unlock trophies instead of playing within the game environment is flaggable.

 

Which explicitly means playing the game normally is a key requirement.

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by Se7en

[ProfBambam55]

42 minutes ago, Vitathelife said:

so CFW Vita huh?...

wow, quite the post there, huh?...did anyone else who voted "do nothing" just consider changing it to "ban"?...

[NaRayquaza]

45 minutes ago, Vitathelife said:

Now there are a few questions that I will list below, because yes I could hack trophies on my Vita if I wanted to, not that I’m stupid enough to sync games that aren’t looking legit. Since I do have a working brain that works unlike many..  And for the record, no I don’t have a CFW PS3 or PS4(not that CFW is available anyway, just an exploit for older firmware). Well it’s not that I can use a save to get certain trophies on those systems, right? Maybe I did who knows or maybe I don’t? Maybe I do trophies legit and maybe I don’t do others legit?

We should focus on this instead of the piracy-related stuff.

[Vitathelife]

Maybe im just trolling you guys? Lol, Some people take some things way too srsly

[arkitekt-gt]

Well, I think it's a tricky thing to do automatically. There is no good and accurate information about releases for all PlayStation games. Take as an example broken age. It had no physical release. Then suddenly Limited Run Games made a physical copy of it. If it had the same trophy folder as the psn one a bunch of users would get flagged or banned. And to make justice ppl would go to the forum and prove they are right. Mods and the users would spend time fixing these problems.

 

Well, anyway. I think ppl who do it should get flagged. And they should get flagged the same way as ppl who rent/share digital copies of a game.
It's just not fair to the ppl who actually make those games.

[B1rvine]

20 minutes ago, Se7en said:

But at the end of the day we should stick to what they literally say at the moment.

 

"Flaggable: Using a save file to auto-unlock trophies"  --  Does this mean save files that don't "auto-pop" trophies should be allowed? 

 

The rules weren't written to exact perfection -- as every exact scenario would take a long time, and this isn't really court of law either -- but the rules do assume a de facto position based on the general meaning.  Also, when the guy who helped author them tells you his meaning, that's not really a "lie" as you put it.....

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said:

let's divide the community and create new leaderboards?

Why does a separate leaderboard automatically have to divide the community? That is based entirely on your perception. It would be entirely up to the individual's preference to decide which LB he joins, and what type of competition is allowed within.  We'd still have single forums, etc.  Perhaps the opt out of the LB I mentioned is better though.  In any case, isn't a ruling one way or another already going to divide the community? 

[Se7en]

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Does this mean save files that don't "auto-pop" trophies should be allowed?

 

Please, read the full sentence, not the short intro part, and you’ll see what is allowed or not:

 

Quote

If you use an external save file to auto-unlock trophies or advance you further into the game and the impossibility of normal circumstance can be proven via the timestamps, it's flaggable.

 

[ProfBambam55]

12 minutes ago, Vitathelife said:

some people take some things way too seriously...

and based on your previous post, it would seem you're one of them as well...

[Avalynch]

As long as the trophies aren't being cheated, I see no problem for using CFW. Blame Sony for restricting you from playing games you want to play.

[B1rvine]

4 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Please, read the full sentence, not the short intro part, and you’ll see what is allowed or not:

 

Let me rephrase that... If someone uses a save file, but the timestamps themselves don't necessarily show that, but it can otherwise be proven somehow they used a save... flaggable?  

 

[Se7en]

1 minute ago, B1rvine said:

Let me rephrase that... If someone uses a save file, but the timestamps themselves don't necessarily show that, but it can otherwise be proven somehow they used a save... flaggable?

 

Elaborate, please, what kind of situation you’re talking about?

[B1rvine]

Just now, Se7en said:

 

Elaborate, please, what kind of situation you’re talking about?

 

Using in game leaderboards, etc, proof of mules, hacked weapons, etc.

[ProfBambam55]

45 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Why does a separate leaderboard automatically have to divide the community?...

Is this a serious question?...

 

I want to be on both...nope, sorry...no gonespy use allowed on ours...as I pointed out earlier in a joking manner, how many leaderboards would we need to create to please everyone?...and which degree of exclusion would be permitted?...creating leaderboards to suit everyone's definition of legit makes more sense than just rewording, creating, or modifying rules if need be? ...hmmm...wouldn't it be simpler be to have one leaderboard that represents what most of the community wants (which of course Sly could always veto into displaying whatever he felt fit) ?...i mean like, kind of the way things are now...

 

i also really don't think these changes are so major that the leaderboards would be intensely more meaningless or that people would even really notice...gonespy is a thing...no leaderboard implosion...cfw vitae or whatever you want to call it, is already a thing...no leaderboard implosion either till someone with a keen eye and perception came along...i'm not using this to diminish any points here just pointing out the reality of such changes...there won't be mass flaggings tomorrow (unless of course the rules are not changed) and likely business will just continue as per usual with a few extra words in our flag rule system which I'm guessing many of the people being tracked/flagged are unaware of...if this was a private leaderboard that was exclusive only to members who willingly take part in the community and have agreed to a site ToS upon signing up that "all flag and site rules listed above are not subject to change but will be subject to their creators' interpretation and applied as they see fit" I might (probably not though) agree that separate leaderboards are a good idea...

 

another side note : the thing about this case is that you could play various region's games on your main account up to about 2013 (from lazy Internet research) just by having several memory sticks or doing a factory reset...is there a proposed cut off date?...and is anyone aware of an exact date when this cfw region workaround became a thing?...(i found 2016-ish but again, lazy internet research)...ridiculous question...does anyone know if let's say I had used the simple memory card trick in 2013, had bought games from several region's stores, earned their trophies on my main account, and kept my vita offline since then if I would be able to sync the earned trophies at a later date?...as in like now?...or would all the content I bought be gone, trophies unearned, get an error upon syncing or something like that?...would they have to have been synced then is what I'm wondering...

Edited March 30, 2018 by ProfBambam55