Vita CFW users should be banned?

[B1rvine]

20 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

Is this a serious question?...

 

Dead serious. 

 

We'd really only need two.  One leaderboard based on what Sony generally accepts, and an "opt out" that basically just lists everybody's trophies in a separate list and they can't be flagged. I don't think that would divide the community. That way, people couldn't be shamed for playing how they want to play, or it wouldn't be as an effective shaming method... since they never signed up for an "official ranking." 

Edit: A website we'll leave unnamed already have customized leaderboards for whatever people want them for too...

Edit 2: I'll also mention something new nobody has actually brought up before.  The majority of of gaming sites frown upon use of hacked versions of their games, un-official mods, when creating in-game rankings. Why are we taking the opposite stance on the general gaming community in general? (I could be wrong about this, but most communities I've ever been in do)

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by B1rvine

[Kittet3]

2 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

Dead serious. 

 

We'd really only need two.  One leaderboard based on what Sony generally accepts, and an "opt out" that basically just lists everybody's trophies in a separate list and they can't be flagged. I don't think that would divide the community. That way, people couldn't be shamed for playing how they want to play, or it wouldn't be as an effective shaming method... since they never signed up for an "official ranking."

 

Don't we have that already? But we just label then  "clean" and "dirty". Or am I missing an important point?

[Se7en]

2 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Using in game leaderboards, etc, proof of mules, hacked weapons, etc.

 

Doesn’t all this stuff have to match with the timestamps in a particular way nevertheless? Like specific patterns and so on.

[ProfBambam55]

14 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

We'd really only need two. 

so then one for gonespy users and one for cfw vita users?...haha...and what happens if I want to be on both but don't meet the criteria (whoever has) put forth?...or if I disagree with both leaderboards rules?...create a thread?...create some definition of legit that I can justify with some form of logic, and voila?..

 

and what does "sony generally accepts" mean?...sounds like another poll is needed...doesn't sony generally accept cfw vita use?...much like creating multiple accounts using false information has anyone been banned by sony for the former?...they can't be bothered to crack down on either?...so who decides and defines what Sony generally accepts then?...you?...me?...are we not just back at square one with this?...

Edited March 31, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[B1rvine]

15 minutes ago, Kittet3 said:

Don't we have that already? But we just label then  "clean" and "dirty". Or am I missing an important point?

 

No. People are either on the leaderboard -- or they're flagged.  Just by updating / viewing your profile, you're also forced on the leaderboard. I'm saying having an opt out all together would be nice as a separate option or something like that at least...

 

 

15 minutes ago, Se7en said:

 

Doesn’t all this stuff have to match with the timestamps in a particular way nevertheless? Like specific patterns and so on.

 

https://forum.psnprofiles.com/topic/48427-monox18s-dispute/

 

TLDR : He had perfectly legitimate timestamps, but the in-game leaderboard showed his data matched -- virtually identically -- to anyone else who used that particular save file, as far as character usage, weapon usage, etc.  I'm not really familiar enough with the game, but the timestamps weren't in an impossible order or anything, and but the data itself proved he didn't play it somehow.

 

Edit: and for arguments sake, I realize sometimes this may not be perfect to identify people with, but assume there is a case where it is.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by B1rvine

[LadyFinesse95]

What if one person bought different vita from different places been used of. (Europe, Asia) And delivered to USA. Will that even possible too to gain trophies as well?

[ProfBambam55]

Maybe I've worded this wrong...let me try again...you're suggesting a separate leaderboard...what I'm asking is "who and what are going to define its properties?"...a group of wise men?...fine, what are they going to base their rules on?...the wisest man's word?...rules a majority of the wise men agree upon?...then shouldn't only the wise men participate?...no wait, they represent a majority of what their group wants?...so then what is the difference with how things are now?...the wise men haven't been able to separate themselves from the pack yet?...but wait, we give you the choice to follow the wise men or not so all is well...

 

and let me guess here...you see making exceptions to existing rules as leading to more exceptions later on but don't see creating separate leaderboards as leading to everyone wanting their own leaderboards for their own  set of rules?...

Edited March 31, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Kittet3]

8 minutes ago, LadyFinesse95 said:

What if one person bought different vita from different places been used of. (Europe, Asia) And delivered to USA. Will that even possible too to gain trophies as well?

Trophies are tied to account which are tied to region, so it's not a hardware restriction. Because Vita can only have one account, unlike ps3 and PS4, you can't share games between accounts with different regions (or between accounts at all)

[LadyFinesse95]

6 minutes ago, Kittet3 said:

Trophies are tied to account which are tied to region, so it's not a hardware restriction. Because Vita can only have one account, unlike ps3 and PS4, you can't share games between accounts with different regions (or between accounts at all)

So with that being said these people who gained these trophies with restriction how's that possible for them to access? Even though, It has been argued earlier that you can't unlocked in different regions. It's pretty clear already that this was indeed cheated. Therefore it shouldn't be allowed. They probably use cfw to acquired those trophies. 

[Se7en]

27 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

TLDR : He had perfectly legitimate timestamps, but the in-game leaderboard showed his data matched -- virtually identically -- to anyone else who used that particular save file, as far as character usage, weapon usage, etc.  I'm not really familiar enough with the game, but the timestamps weren't in an impossible order or anything, and but the data itself proved he didn't play it somehow.

 

I vaguely remember this one. Still aren’t the trophy timestamps what determines who was the original save-file owner (not flaggable imo), and everyone else with the same stats subsequently are flaggable copycats?

[Azelais]

From what I understand (from giving the leaderboard rules a read), allowed on PSNP leaderboardas and excluded from leaderboard kick-out are certain privileges that the majority of users in (but not limited to) western, middle and middle-east Europe, as well as North America (as these make up the primary audience of PSNP) have access to: 

 

• a PS system that isn't region-locked to a single PSN store (China comes to mind),
• the ability to use a SEN designated to be used in your very country/area of residence & sign up for SEN for another and/or multiple regions (because officially and regardless of escapades of high-ranking Sony reps, you are not to use SEN online services until SEN access is made available for you - and if you move, you are expect to make a new account and refrain from use of previously bought digital-content on your old account),
• not particularly restricted access to the WWW (including the ability to, for example, buy PSN cards from 3rd parties such as amazon or an handy [inter]national cc),
• a Windows PC for that Gamespy thingmajing that I don't want to spend time reading up on (I don't have access to a Windows PC but assuming most of you do),
• game imports (your country's legislative allows [most] game imports from [most] anywhere). 

 

From what I understand, that's more or less how it currently is, although one or more of these points came up and were questioned in this, at times, broad discussion. (BTW I'm totally ignoring the finer details of the rules, because I'm tired enough of strangers hitting me up to ask me for save files for trophies. I don't want to have to think of the words 'save files' anymore than I have to.) 

 

But what I don't understand is, considering you (as in, PSNP staff, users, the random net person floating by, though Sony's excluded here as far as full CFW on PS3 goes, because the general opinion is that nobody knows for certain how they manage to find CFW out sometimes with syscalls disabled) cannot detect the presence of a CFW (or of HAN or of save files snatched from other account holders) on PS3/VITA/PS4 directly, why 'should VITA CFW-users be banned from leaderboard participation?' can be a question in the first place. 

 

Why isn't the question more akin to 'should certain people, namely those who have synced a trophy list (regardless of %) of a VITA digital-only game that they absolutely cannot have purchased from PSN (at the time of the first archived[?] sync) on the account that they synced that trophy list to, be banned from further leaderboard participation?'.

 

(Why regardless of % synced? Because imagine someone syncs VITA JP vers. SO2's 0% trophy list to their US account. What then, if anything?)

[B1rvine]

9 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

Maybe I've worded this wrong...let me try again...you're suggesting a separate leaderboard...what I'm asking is "who and what are going to define its properties?"...a group of wise men?...fine, what are they going to base their rules on?...the wisest man's word?...rules a majority of the wise men agree upon?...then shouldn't only the wise men participate?...no wait, they represent a majority of what their group wants?...so then what is the difference with how things are now?...the wise men haven't been able to separate themselves from the pack yet?...but wait, we give you the choice to follow the wise men or not so all is well...

 

Alright, last post for me for awhile. Sent you a PM. Sorry peeps, your entertainment is over.....

 

And yeah, my original multi-leaderboard proposal wasn't thought out at all, just a preliminary idea.  I think the staff should decide these rules ultimately, but they should generally go by Sony's terms (whether Sony enforces those rules or not) of what's acceptable or not. I say Sony's terms is a good place to start, since that's sort of the "default" or "most-neutral" starting position so to speak... And when I say "generally go by their terms" its because I recognize identifying some things would be impossible for this site.

 

Anyone that doesn't agree with these leaderboard rules could opt out - and be on a non-flaggable "leaderboard."  Since most of the Pro-CFW camp seems to base their opinion on not wanting to be flagged for playing their way, lets create a option for them, while not alienating everyone else using the previously established rules when changes can't be agreed upon. Static rules would keep the, admittedly, non perfect rules predictable at least.

[Se7en]

34 minutes ago, Azelais said:

Why isn't the question more akin to 'should certain people, namely those who have synced a trophy list (regardless of %) of a VITA digital-only game that they absolutely cannot have purchased from PSN (at the time of the first archived[?] sync) on the account that they synced that trophy list to, be banned from further leaderboard participation?'.

 

Because CFW is somewhat scary for the general public, good for fear-mongering, and the question as it’s formulated by you implies removing from the leaderboards everyone who earned their trophies in region-restricted games by playing said games as most legit gamers do.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by Se7en

[ProfBambam55]

25 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

Since most of the Pro-CFW camp seems to base their opinion on not wanting to be flagged for playing their way, lets create a option for them, while not alienating everyone else using the previously established rules when changes can't be agreed upon. Static rules would keep the, admittedly, non perfect rules predictable at least.

i don't think there is a pro cfw camp but I do think some people are against cfw use in any form (shall we call them the anti cfw camp cuz it's kinda cute?)...what I see within this thread is the anti cfw camp and the group of people who see using cfw to access content rather than earn trophies via cfw as ok if the time stamps of these trophies seem to fall in line with the existing rules...i think some are even relieved that such cfw exists since it allows them to play and display these games on their main account...i.e. the one where the rest of their games appear...to this group cfw use allowing access to games and yes, trophies does not mean that they have cheated in the process of actually earning the trophies by playing the game legit...I think we agree that such users are cheating the system to have access to these games but are doing so at the risk of the system fighting back...this is not the only case where people are cheating the system to have access to other regions' content and yes, trophies as well so we don't see it as a flaggable/bannable offense...we actually don't have a problem with the leaderboards as they are now...only the anti cfw camp does (who also may or may not like gonespy use which isn't even cfw - can of worms discussing that here though)...that's what I'm kind of reading here but I could be wrong...

Edited March 31, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[HailHale81]

I have to say that I'm technically ok with people using modded vitas to play other region games. I'm sure a person who passed me not to long ago on the leader boards is using pirated copies of games and at first I'm like this sucks but then I think how they allow team accounts so catching up to people becomes impossible anyways. If they're playing the game legit then I don't care

 

Now I say I'm technically ok with it but the issue I have is if they're running that software then it makes people very suspicious if they're platting the games legitimately. The person can be legit but it puts a dark cloud on them. It's not fair to them to think that but they put themselves in that situation. I know I think that when I see people who plat Super Meat Boy or Injustice on the vita and they have no other platformers or fighting games. It makes me think they're a cheater but maybe they did it legit. Who knows. This just puts those people in the same category in my mind.

 

I'll say you guys did scare at least one person in the op pics haha. That person hid a lot of games all of a sudden including the region locked vita game in the pic. At worse instead of banning or flagging just ask them to hide the games without any penalties.

[SnowxSakura]

10 hours ago, LadyFinesse95 said:

So with that being said these people who gained these trophies with restriction how's that possible for them to access? Even though, It has been argued earlier that you can't unlocked in different regions. It's pretty clear already that this was indeed cheated. Therefore it shouldn't be allowed. They probably use cfw to acquired those trophies. 

With custom firmware on the vita you can put more than 1 account on a single system, which allows access to other region stores. They aren't all just editing games into their list with false timestamps, but they also risk a perma account ban(goodbye to all of your purchases forever) and a console ban

[Zolkovo]

11 hours ago, HailHale81 said:

I have to say that I'm technically ok with people using modded vitas to play other region games. I'm sure a person who passed me not to long ago on the leader boards is using pirated copies of games and at first I'm like this sucks but then I think how they allow team accounts so catching up to people becomes impossible anyways. If they're playing the game legit then I don't care

 

Now I say I'm technically ok with it but the issue I have is if they're running that software then it makes people very suspicious if they're platting the games legitimately. The person can be legit but it puts a dark cloud on them. It's not fair to them to think that but they put themselves in that situation. I know I think that when I see people who plat Super Meat Boy or Injustice on the vita and they have no other platformers or fighting games. It makes me think they're a cheater but maybe they did it legit. Who knows. This just puts those people in the same category in my mind.

 

I'll say you guys did scare at least one person in the op pics haha. That person hid a lot of games all of a sudden including the region locked vita game in the pic. At worse instead of banning or flagging just ask them to hide the games without any penalties.

 

Those are some good points you've made. If we allow team-accounts, share-play, buying/selling trophies because these things can't be enforced then CFW is no better or worse really. All these things are a huge disadvantage for the majority of people who own and play on their own accounts by themselves (as it should be..). I do disagree with the notion that pirated games should be OK even if played legit because that takes disposable income completely out of the equation and coupled with the fact that we have far less time as we actually need to earn our keep, this gives a sizeable (and illegal) advantage to piraters. Not to mention this really hurts developers, especially the indie developers.

 

My guess is this issue really only affects maybe the top 5000 or 10000 players and I'll be damned if I ever break 200k. So even though something like this would never directly affect me, I still believe it's unfair on people like the above poster but hey-ho that's life I suppose.

 

I think assuming someone who has the one UR fighting gaming has cheated it is a tad unfair, since even I picked up SMB and plan on platting it through perseverance more than anything else despite the lack of platforming games on my profile (although I've played my fair share on other platforms). But that's neither here nor there.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Zolkovo
Typo: changed fighting to platforming

[Conker]

My personal opinion is, as long as trophies are earned legit its ok.  

 

If only sony had allowed multiple accounts for vita..Sigh?

[ProfBambam55]

I have a few small questions and I think they've been covered here but I seem to be overlooking them...is it possible to earn trophies from various regions on your main vita account by purchasing physical copies of the games?...and if so, does anyone have any numbers on how many games are region-specific and digital-only?...the last few posts have me kind of wondering if such data is available...i like numbers...

 

from my understanding having multiple regions' vita games on one's main account does not mean that they are pirated...if the content was available physically they could easily just have bought/imported it...is this correct?...

 

for the region-specific digital-only games, would there be any way for someone out-of-region to buy them or must they be pirated to be played?...just curious...if I'm understanding the software/firmware correctly it does not give people access to various regions' psstores so no way of buying these specific games but the games would need to be played legit to earn the trophies...is this the case?...sorry, I woke up and kind of forgot what details were covered here...

Edited March 31, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[B1rvine]

17 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

is it possible to earn trophies from various regions on your main vita account by purchasing physical copies of the games? 

 

Yes, the Vita is region free, for physical games. I just purchased LittleBigPlanet Vita Marvel Edition, a EU only title, to get the DLC that was delisted since it's DLC was built into the cartridge. 

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81milTP5a8L._SL1500_.jpg

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/1612-littlebigplanet/B1rvine

 

17 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

does anyone have any numbers on how many games are region-specific and digital-only?

no idea

 

17 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

from my understanding having multiple regions' vita games on one's main account does not mean that they are pirated if the content was available physically...is this correct?...

correct

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by B1rvine

[ProfBambam55]

hmmm, would be interesting to see the numbers...i'm wondering if this would lead to hundreds of games that would stand out on one's profile or just a few dozen, a handful or whatevz...if people still have to play them legit it's kind of a non-advantage in a sense cuz it would still take the same amount of time to earn their trophies and there's nothing saying that that time wouldn't have been spent playing other games in place of the potentially pirated vita ones...yep, it would likely take a little more effort and money to play other stuff but if they were truly competitive that wouldn't really stop them i guessing...

 

and just another quick note on violation of rules to gain access to content...in the case of people falsifying info to create multiple regions' ps3/ps4 accounts...I think it's been around for a long time... few, if any accounts have ever been banned so it became widely accepted...but let's face it here, no one would walk into a bank and intentionally give false information to have access to certain features...it would be illegal whether a large group of people did/accepted it or not...so why is it fair game on the leaderboards? ...

 

i think the concept of cfw/ofw modding is kind of taboo and a little more risky for the user (viruses, etc.) in terms of gaining access to content but is it really all that different from falsifying info in terms of let's say "legality" or "fairness"?...perhaps in a decade when a large group of people are doing it and if none of them get banned (as far as I know it's not new and no one has been banned for its use - Google led to nothing pertinent) it will become just as acceptable a means of acquiring games as creating accounts with false info...if I offered everyone free games tomorrow would a majority say "no, thanks...i like to play only games I bought legit...it's more fair to the psnp leaderboards"...really?...

Edited March 31, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Zolkovo]

21 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

[...] if I offered everyone free games tomorrow would a majority say "no, thanks...i like to play only games I bought legit...it's more fair to the psnp leaderboards"...really?...

 

You can't equate gifting with illegally acquiring media.. unless you mean you are uploading and seeding said media unlawfully for others to download, then yeah for sure I'd wager most people would say no. And it's more about being morally and ethically developed as a person.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Zolkovo

[DaivRules]

28 minutes ago, Zolkovo said:

 

You can't equate gifting with illegally acquiring media.. unless you mean you are uploading and seeding said media unlawfully for others to download, then yeah for sure I'd wager most people would say no. And it's more about being morally and ethically developed as a person.

 

Sure doesn’t seem that way when you talk about emulated games. People got tons of shit for talking about wanting to legally play old NES and SNES games via the classic editions and the sheer numbers of people who bragged and explained their illegally obtained roms played in their hardware setup were superior in every way was mind-boggling.

Edited March 31, 2018 by DaivRules

[ProfBambam55]

1 hour ago, Zolkovo said:

 

You can't equate gifting with illegally acquiring media.. unless you mean you are uploading and seeding said media unlawfully for others to download, then yeah for sure I'd wager most people would say no. And it's more about being morally and ethically developed as a person.

do you remember when napster, limewire, pirate's bay, torrents, etc. came out?...i'm not sure if it was the same in all countries but these were incredibly popular here in North America...this was proven by companies losing so much money that that they eventually jumped on the legality of it all and such programs were shut down, pushed underground, and whatnot...they cracked down on people exploiting pirated media en masse...they then created acceptable ways for the public to have digital access to much of the content that people wanted...but what if they hadn't?...i'm guessing napster would be the "normal way" to get media still to this day...

 

from what I could find it's been about two years and Sony hasn't done anything to "fix" this vita, let's call it, loophole as of today...they also haven't come up with a solution that allows access to the content that some people may be asking for either...much like napster, I don't find it surprising that people are exploiting this and history has kind of proven that I don't think most people would say "no" if legal ramifications are non-existent...i think the reality is that most people don't generally turn down free stuff, legal or not...in a decade, this just might be the acceptable means of acquiring region-locked digital-only vita content...it'll be interesting to see what happens of this or if Sony will continue to ignore it as they shift their focus away from the ps3 and vita and move on to better things...perhaps this vita "revolution" is exactly what's needed for Sony to make this content available to all through legitimate means...after all, greatness awaits... 

Edited March 31, 2018 by ProfBambam55

[Lance_87]

23 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

do you remember when napster, limewire, pirate's bay, torrents, etc. came out?...i'm not sure if it was the same in all countries but these were incredibly popular here in North America...companies lost so much money that they eventually jumped on the legality of it all and they were shut down, pushed underground, and such...they cracked down on people exploiting pirated media en masse...they then created acceptable ways for the public to have digital access to much of the content that people wanted...but what if they hadn't?...i'm guessing napster would be the "normal way" to get media still to this day...

 

from what I could find it's been about two years and Sony hasn't done anything to "fix" this vita, let's call it, loophole as of today...they also haven't come up with a solution that allows access to the content that some people may be asking for either...much like napster, I don't find it surprising that people are exploiting this and history has kind of proven that I don't think most people would say "no"...i think the reality is that most people don't generally turn down free stuff, legal or not...in a decade, this just might be the acceptable means of acquiring region-locked digital-only vita content...it'll be interesting to see what happens of this or if Sony will continue to ignore it as they shift their focus away from the ps3 and vita and move on to better things...perhaps this vita "revolution" is exactly what's needed for Sony to make this content available to all through legitimate means...after all, greatness awaits... 

 

Jesus Christ, Napster was AWFUL lol.