Should the DLC/add ons trophy rarity need to some work?

[djb5f]

Yes, this is the age-old question, how to report DLC rarities.

 

Even though the current formula is arbitrary in nature, I think I still prefer it over using all users who have played the base game.  That way was flawed and greatly skewed the rarity of the DLC trophies making the whole measure unusable and ruining the rarities for base game trophies that are legitimate.

 

Only solution would be to know how many people have actually played the DLC (NOT earned a trophy as that does not work either) and we unfortunately can't tell that.

 

Really, using rarity for DLC based on base game players is not much different than using ALL playstation owners as the denominator for all trophies.  In each, case, they don't own the content. but technically could

 

Really hoping, PS5 has a solution for this.

[JohnCenaSong-]

5 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

See - I guess that’s where your opinion and mine differ...

 

You would like ‘rarity’ to reflect difficulty,

I would like ‘rarity’ to accurately reflect rarity.

 

 

But it wouldn't reflect rarity. We don't have the numbers regarding DLC owners so basing rarity on all game owners wouldn't reflect the rarity at all either. The DLC is a seperate purchase, someone who doesn't buy the DLC doesn't have access to 'all of it'.

 

It would be like having rarity for every base game list be calculated out of every person who owns the console that game is on when those people clearly haven't bought or played that game.

 

If someone doesn't buy/own a DLC then they obviously shouldn't be part of the calculation but we just don't and probably never will have that kind of data, so the formula as it is now whilst it is technically a 'made-up' number of sorts, looks much more accurate in actual context. Look at some DLC trophies and you'll tend to think 'yeah it probably is about that rare among those who bought this DLC'. I would rather have a number that looks right than the only other 2 real alternatives which just results in obscenely high or obscenely low rarity by basing it purely on a specific figure that doesn't even represent the true ownership (those figures being either using only people with 1 trophy in it or using all game owners)

 

The only time all game owners should be calculated (and what I was kind of suggesting in my other post) is free DLC and patched in trophies. This is because all game owners have access to the content without having to buy anything additional. As an example, Minecraft gets title updates a lot, all of Minecrafts 'DLC' achievements should be based on all game owners. New Game + trophy lists should also get that treatment too, free updates are available for all. The actual DLC however that you have to actually buy, should remain the same as it is now unless in the future Sony decides to somehow mark people as having/not having a DLC the trophy list is tied to (which will most likely be never)

[DrBloodmoney]

27 minutes ago, JohnCenaSong- said:

 

But it wouldn't reflect rarity. We don't have the numbers regarding DLC owners so basing rarity on all game owners wouldn't reflect the rarity at all either. The DLC is a seperate purchase, someone who doesn't buy the DLC doesn't have access to 'all of it'.

 

It would be like having rarity for every base game list be calculated out of every person who owns the console that game is on when those people clearly haven't bought or played that game.

 

If someone doesn't buy/own a DLC then they obviously shouldn't be part of the calculation but we just don't and probably never will have that kind of data, so the formula as it is now whilst it is technically a 'made-up' number of sorts, looks much more accurate in actual context. Look at some DLC trophies and you'll tend to think 'yeah it probably is about that rare among those who bought this DLC'. I would rather have a number that looks right than the only other 2 real alternatives which just results in obscenely high or obscenely low rarity by basing it purely on a specific figure that doesn't even represent the true ownership (those figures being either using only people with 1 trophy in it or using all game owners)

 

The only time all game owners should be calculated (and what I was kind of suggesting in my other post) is free DLC and patched in trophies. This is because all game owners have access to the content without having to buy anything additional. As an example, Minecraft gets title updates a lot, all of Minecrafts 'DLC' achievements should be based on all game owners. New Game + trophy lists should also get that treatment too, free updates are available for all. The actual DLC however that you have to actually buy, should remain the same as it is now unless in the future Sony decides to somehow mark people as having/not having a DLC the trophy list is tied to (which will most likely be never)

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

All people who have a game are included in the dlc owners when it comes to their percentage for completion of the game and have to complete it all to get the 100%, so it stands to reason that all those same people should be considered part of the ownership when calculating rarity. 

 

That is quite simply the only possible method that would give any kind of real number. The method currently is completely meaningless - its just based on a formula. It might as well be plucked from an rng, for all the correlation to real rarity it has.

 

I truely do not understand why people argue against this concept.

 

The people who don’t play the dlc are already getting the short end of the stick, as their 100% is not attainable (since they don’t have the dlc). That isn’t changeable. 100% is 100%. That cannot change.

 

But currently, the people who do get the dlc are getting short shrift too - since their average rarity stat is being pulled up by artificially propped-up rarity values.

 

If you don’t want to get the 100%, and are willing to settle for soft platinums, then that’s fine. I understand why, and God knows, I do that for plenty of games.

 

But arguing that those who do put in the work should have their average rarity scores get humped for no good reason?

 

That’s just silly. Or spiteful. Or both.

 

While you are correct that, technically, all console owners have the opportunity to buy any game, that is not a useful or apt comparison, to dlc ownership, because there is no ‘percentage of total games available completed’ stat tracked. If there was:

1. That would be insanely low for everyone

2. You would have a point

3. That would be hilarious (and now I kind of want that!  )

 

Rarity is not difficulty.

Rarity is rarity.

Despite how some people on this site like to use those terms interchangeably, the stats should not be massaged by an arbitrary formula to try and equate one to the other.

 

Far fewer people play the dlc’s for games than play the main game. That should make those trophies significantly rarer. 

 

Because... well.... they are.

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by DrBloodmoney

[djb5f]

I mentioned in the post before and agree with Jon Cena, have DLC trophies count as more rare because a huge portion does not own the content is equivalent to making every trophy's rarity based on the # of users for that gaming console.  I mean technically, it is that "rare" even if that makes zero sense.

 

Rarity trophies mean a little more again (albeit the formula is admittedly arbitrary) but having DLC rarity based on the base game users skews the data and ruins the base game data too.

 

Wish there was a better way but sadly, the current method is better than anything else I have seen.  And counting DLC owners only as those who have at least 1 trophy in the DLC was the worst.  It inflated the numbers the other way.

[Sinthoras_96]

I think you guys are comparing apples with oranges.

 

@DrBloodmoney is right. Lets take Dishonored PS3 as an example again: The 100% Completion Rate is 0.2% on PSNP. This counts ALL people who played the game, no matter if they own the DLC or not. Yet, none of the DLC trophies comes even close to that ( the hardest trophy is a 2.5% or so). It simply doesnt make any sense at all. The hardest DLC trophies should be somewhere between 0.2 and 0.5 or so. 

 

The argument with counting all console owners doesnt work. The game owners are already calculated for the 100% completion anyway, so you might aswell calculate them for the actual trophies, which are required to achieve those 100%.

 

Another great example is Deux Ex Mankind Divided and the Free (So everyone has access to them) Breach DLCs. The main game Breach trophies are all ultra rare between 3% and 5% and also the platinum sits at 2.8%. Now have a look at the 100% rate: Its 0.7%, yet not a single Breach DLC trophy is ultra rare, although some of them are much harder/grindier than the maingame breach trophies, which are ultra rare. 

 

The DLC rarity system is simply broken honestly.

[djb5f]

yes, it is broken and there is no easy fix. 

 

If folks don't own the DLC, you cannot count them just because they have the base game.  Makes no sense and throws ALL rarity %'s out of the window, making none of them usable in relation to each other.

[Sinthoras_96]

Just now, djb5f said:

yes, it is broken and there is no easy fix. 

 

If folks don't own the DLC, you cannot count them just because they have the base game.  Makes no sense and throws ALL rarity %'s out of the window, making none of them usable in relation to each other.

But they are already counted for the 100% completion rate of a game. And you cant earn the 100% without buying and playing the DLC. So you might aswell count them for the DLCs.

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

But they are already counted for the 100% completion rate of a game. And you cant earn the 100% without buying and playing the DLC. So you might aswell count them for the DLCs.

 

^this guy gets it^

 

 

[djb5f]

11 minutes ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

But they are already counted for the 100% completion rate of a game. And you cant earn the 100% without buying and playing the DLC. So you might aswell count them for the DLCs.

 

It messes up the rarity trophy %'s in a major way.  Everyone's most rare trophies would be DLC because most folks don't own the content, they have no chance to even get the trophy.  That should not play into rarity numbers or might as well count the whole playstation 4 population with the opportunity to get said trophy.

 

I know we will have to agree to disagree at this point.

 

And edit, I understand your point, I just don't think it is worth it at the expense of really screwy rarity percentages.

Edited May 13, 2019 by djb5f

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, djb5f said:

 

It messes up the rarity trophy %'s in a major way.  Everyone's most rare trophies would be DLC because most folks don't own the content, they have no chance to even get the trophy.  That should not play into rarity numbers or might as well count the whole playstation 4 population with the opportunity to get said trophy.

 

I know we will have to agree to disagree at this point.

 

You are correct. 

 

The most uncommon trophies to get are, in fact, dlc trophies, as they are the trophies that the least number of people get.

 

They would, ipso facto, be the rarest.

 

Saying we should massage the numbers to avoid that fact would be like saying we need to know the average age of people in a school, but we should add an arbitrary 10 years to all people under 12, otherwise the average would make the teachers feel bad.

 

[Sinthoras_96]

3 minutes ago, djb5f said:

 

It messes up the rarity trophy %'s in a major way.  Everyone's most rare trophies would be DLC because most folks don't own the content, they have no chance to even get the trophy.  That should not play into rarity numbers or might as well count the whole playstation 4 population with the opportunity to get said trophy.

 

I know we will have to agree to disagree at this point.

It wouldnt mess them up more as they are now. Deus Ex MD is the best example. I already explained detailed above why:

- Breach mode trophies in main game are UR

- The Platinum is UR (mainly because of Breach mode)

- The 100% completion is much rarer than the plat

- Yet, none of the Free Update Breach DLC trophies are even close to UR although many of them are much harder than the main game ones

 

How is that not messed up? Especially since its a free DLC and everyone has access to it.

[djb5f]

Have separate rarity leaderboards then, one for base game content and one for DLC OR just open up every game so that the number of people who can earn it = the numbers of players on that console.  It is like saying, well they could earn trophies if they purchased said game (same for said DLC).

 

That a trophy is more rare because it includes a lot of people who cannot earn it will never sit right with me.  And if for some odd reason, I want to see that skewed statistic, I can see it on other websites like psntrophyleaders.

 

You might as well remove the whole rarity statistic if you use the base game owners for the DLC trophies.  Mixing apples and oranges.

 

17 minutes ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

It wouldnt mess them up more as they are now. Deus Ex MD is the best example. I already explained detailed above why:

- Breach mode trophies in main game are UR

- The Platinum is UR (mainly because of Breach mode)

- The 100% completion is much rarer than the plat

- Yet, none of the Free Update Breach DLC trophies are even close to UR although many of them are much harder than the main game ones

 

How is that not messed up? Especially since its a free DLC and everyone has access to it.

 

I don't know that game but your premise is faulty.  The 100% has to be much rarer than platinum in EVERY situation because you need the platinum PLUS MORE in order to get it.  The platinum is just a subset of the 100%. 

 

Nothing in this necessitates that there has to be a trophy more difficult (or rare if you prefer) in the DLC than there is in the base game.  Often there isn't.

Edited May 13, 2019 by djb5f

[Lava_Yuki]

21 hours ago, AK-1138 said:

I've always hated how DLC "installs itself" into a trophy list regardless of whether you paid or not or not. It should be optional. Again, I don't know why the hell game and hardware designers hate options so much. Those guys are so shrewd they may as well just leave it be, so as to bolster sales from the OCD crowd. That's what you do when you've already slit your mama's throat for a nickel and still want more.

I very much agree, my FFXV completion % which was initially a 100% Platinum has now dropped to 50% after all this DLC. I just bought the Prompto and Gladio episodes, none of the others and hadn't touched the game since but was annoyed to see my completion % go down for DLC I don't even own (episode ignis and ardyn)

 

7 hours ago, JoocyMan said:

I admit that if the plan on the part of the developers is to cash in on OCD trophy hunters wanting that full 100% bar next to the game's name on their trophy list, it works on me. I love and hate it at the same time; it sucks because I have to pay more, but at the same time I have a reason to come back to the game. Just yesterday I went back to AC:Syndicate to play the Jack the Ripper DLC I had finally gotten on discount like a week ago, and my last save on that game was in 2016. I had liked the game, but not enough to replay it just for fun. The looming, incomplete 100% made me return though, and I had a pretty good time!

I can see the marketing strategy behind it in that it works on trophy hunters. I personally find it hard to go back to a game that I've already platinumed, hadn't played in ages and put aside for the next one though. I think it's ok if dlc is released when the game is still relatively new and people are still playing it, but I dont like it if they release DLC years after, like FFXV did

[Spinosaurus Rex]

I personally understand both sides, if DLC trophies rarity would include all owners of the game, I'd probably be given 200 UR & VR trophies, but maybe 10% of them deserves this kind of rarity. Even simple games like Mafia III would give you about 40 of them, not only because of DLC, but also because of game being in PS+ earlier.

 

But what about reverting the rarity to include all game owners AND add a special tab under your trophies count where rarity is presented (I mean this small table under your "Rarest trophies" showcase) that would count only DLC trophies? With this additional info on profile, one could look and hunt for DLC trophies that suddenly got the rarity boost, but also could be treated with a grain of salt by people who don't like this way of counting rarity.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Spinosaurus Rex

[zGaete-]

36 minutes ago, djb5f said:

Have separate rarity leaderboards then, one for base game content and one for DLC OR just open up every game so that the number of people who can earn it = the numbers of players on that console.  It is like saying, well they could earn trophies if they purchased said game (same for said DLC).

 

That a trophy is more rare because it includes a lot of people who cannot earn it will never sit right with me.  And if for some odd reason, I want to see that skewed statistic, I can see it on other websites like psntrophyleaders.

 

You might as well remove the whole rarity statistic if you use the base game owners for the DLC trophies.  Mixing apples and oranges.

 

 

I don't know that game but your premise is faulty.  The 100% has to be much rarer than platinum in EVERY situation because you need the platinum PLUS MORE in order to get it.  The platinum is just a subset of the 100%. 

 

Nothing in this necessitates that there has to be a trophy more difficult (or rare if you prefer) in the DLC than there is in the base game.  Often there isn't.

"a trophy is more rare because it includes a lot of people who cannot earn it " I understand you, but this should be changed just to free updates and complete edition. Everybody can earn the trophy. 

Need for speed:

The game has 217,573 owners. Gold Plated trophy has 325 achievers, it came in a free update and now it is set in 1% rarity (wich representes 2,100 owners). This Math is not right...  

Counting all the players who have played the game after the update/dlc should be the best way to follow. everybody can earn the trophy, so it makes sense, but just the players who played the game after the patch.

I like your ideia of having separate rarity leaderboards, this should solve the 100% problem ppl are complaining.

[colia100]

It's not just a trophytracking site thing : on your playstation account, dlc is also tracked, percentages and all, so why should it not be reflected here?

 

If you start bending the rules to adjust to your wants and needs, there's not much use is there? You can just as well hide trophies then so you can pat yourself on the back for finding a cheap and easy way to feed your ocd.

 

As spaz said, dlc is here to stay.

Nobody is forcing you to buy or play it except the little voice in your head that cares more about your completion rate then anybody else in the real world does, trust me...

[Sinthoras_96]

22 minutes ago, zGaete- said:

"a trophy is more rare because it includes a lot of people who cannot earn it " I understand you, but this should be changed just to free updates and complete edition. Everybody can earn the trophy. 

Need for speed:

The game has 217,573 owners. Gold Plated trophy has 325 achievers, it came in a free update and now it is set in 1% rarity (wich representes 2,100 owners). This Math is not right...  

Counting all the players who have played the game after the update/dlc should be the best way to follow. everybody can earn the trophy, so it makes sense, but just the players who played the game after the patch.

I like your ideia of having separate rarity leaderboards, this should solve the 100% problem ppl are complaining.

Yeah, atleast for the free DLCs/complete Editions it should be changed.

[dmland12]

3 hours ago, JohnCenaSong- said:

 

But it wouldn't reflect rarity. We don't have the numbers regarding DLC owners so basing rarity on all game owners wouldn't reflect the rarity at all either. The DLC is a seperate purchase, someone who doesn't buy the DLC doesn't have access to 'all of it'.

 

It would be like having rarity for every base game list be calculated out of every person who owns the console that game is on when those people clearly haven't bought or played that game.

 

If someone doesn't buy/own a DLC then they obviously shouldn't be part of the calculation but we just don't and probably never will have that kind of data, so the formula as it is now whilst it is technically a 'made-up' number of sorts, looks much more accurate in actual context. Look at some DLC trophies and you'll tend to think 'yeah it probably is about that rare among those who bought this DLC'. I would rather have a number that looks right than the only other 2 real alternatives which just results in obscenely high or obscenely low rarity by basing it purely on a specific figure that doesn't even represent the true ownership (those figures being either using only people with 1 trophy in it or using all game owners)

 

The only time all game owners should be calculated (and what I was kind of suggesting in my other post) is free DLC and patched in trophies. This is because all game owners have access to the content without having to buy anything additional. As an example, Minecraft gets title updates a lot, all of Minecrafts 'DLC' achievements should be based on all game owners. New Game + trophy lists should also get that treatment too, free updates are available for all. The actual DLC however that you have to actually buy, should remain the same as it is now unless in the future Sony decides to somehow mark people as having/not having a DLC the trophy list is tied to (which will most likely be never)

 

I agree with all of this except for how you'd handle free DLC that is added after a game's release.  In many cases this DLC wasn't part of the game when people played the game, and functions similarly to regular DLC for them, even though free.  Even if they still own the game and have access to it, they haven't played it.  It would be like counting everyone with PS+ that has a game from PS+ in their backlog as an owner. (After all, they also have free access to it, but haven't played it).  Meanwhile for other people, it was part of the game when they played it, so it's more like the DLC that's released with a game (common among remasters: Uncharted, Bioshock, etc.).  For those, it's much fairer to include everyone of the base game as an owner of the DLC too.

 

So, I don't see an easy solution to it, but rather some attempt at calculating it depending on when the DLC was released compared to when the game was released.  LOL, people would love that I'm sure.

[zGaete-]

1 hour ago, zGaete- said:

"a trophy is more rare because it includes a lot of people who cannot earn it " I understand you, but this should be changed just to free updates and complete edition. Everybody can earn the trophy. 

Need for speed:

The game has 217,573 owners. Gold Plated trophy has 325 achievers, it came in a free update and now it is set in 1% rarity (wich representes 2,100 owners). This Math is not right...  

Counting all the players who have played the game after the update/dlc should be the best way to follow. everybody can earn the trophy, so it makes sense, but just the players who played the game after the patch.

I like your ideia of having separate rarity leaderboards, this should solve the 100% problem ppl are complaining.

And need for speed is an always online game, so everyone has the update

 

I mean, start counting after the update goes live...

 

Like i've sad before, its not possible to play the most recent update in a mmo game without older ones... like in neverwinter and other online games only 

20 minutes ago, dmland12 said:

 

I agree with all of this except for how you'd handle free DLC that is added after a game's release.  In many cases this DLC wasn't part of the game when people played the game, and functions similarly to regular DLC for them, even though free.  Even if they still own the game and have access to it, they haven't played it.  It would be like counting everyone with PS+ that has a game from PS+ in their backlog as an owner. (After all, they also have free access to it, but haven't played it).  Meanwhile for other people, it was part of the game when they played it, so it's more like the DLC that's released with a game (common among remasters: Uncharted, Bioshock, etc.).  For those, it's much fairer to include everyone of the base game as an owner of the DLC too.

 

So, I don't see an easy solution to it, but rather some attempt at calculating it depending on when the DLC was released compared to when the game was released.  LOL, people would love that I'm sure.

Perfect 

Or comparing the update date to the last played/trophy date

Edited May 13, 2019 by zGaete-

[ErikNus]

2 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

You are correct. 

 

The most uncommon trophies to get are, in fact, dlc trophies, as they are the trophies that the least number of people get.

 

They would, ipso facto, be the rarest.

 

Saying we should massage the numbers to avoid that fact would be like saying we need to know the average age of people in a school, but we should add an arbitrary 10 years to all people under 12, otherwise the average would make the teachers feel bad.

 

Actuallly, by your logic, a game that only sold 1 copy should have the rarest trophy. But if that person got the trophy, it would automatically be 100%, even though he is the only one in the world who has it. 

 

A dlc's trophy shouldn't be rarer just because a lot of people don't play it. That would make dlc trophies for bad games rarer, because a lot of people wouldn't want to keep playing it. 

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, ErikNus said:

Actuallly, by your logic, a game that only sold 1 copy should have the rarest trophy. But if that person got the trophy, it would automatically be 100%, even though he is the only one in the world who has it. 

 

A dlc's trophy shouldn't be rarer just because a lot of people don't play it. That would make dlc trophies for bad games rarer, because a lot of people wouldn't want to keep playing it. 

 

Nope, wrong.

I’m afraid you have, unfortunately, failed to understand my logic.

 

On the contrary, by my logic, that game would indeed have all 100% common trophies.

 

However, if that game sold 100 copies, and everyone got all those trophies (thus all having 100% completion and all 100% common trophies) but then a dlc were released for it, (lowering everyone’s completion to 90%) and only 1 person completed the dlc trophies, they would be at 100% completion, and the dlc trophies would have a 1% rarity value.

 

which would make sense, since 1 out of the 100 people for whom the dlc already affects their completion percentage would have got the dlc trophies.

[Salicylae]

 

23 hours ago, TheYuriG said:

I have a suggestion in the forums, that was obviously ignored like everything else, where i suggest that free DLC should have their % aligned to the base game, since they are free. In a few years, at best, should be implemented.

 

I totally agree with that, I don't understand why it's not the case already...

 

23 hours ago, Midnightwards666 said:

[...] do we want the rarity to reflect the difficulty of the game, or be an accurate percentage of how many owners earned said trophy ?

 

 

But how could it be accurate if the owners counting isn't anyway ? 

 

The best exemple I could take is Need for Speed (2015) : https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/4003-need-for-speed

All DLCs are free and you can't play the game without being conected to internet (the update have to be done), so since the DLCs release all players should've been considered as DLCs owners. Just look at the gap between both DLCs owners, knowing that the 2nd DLC pack have no easy trophies.

 

Edit: Also a funny one with Mirror's Edge (PS3) : The rarity of the trophy for getting 50 stars is 3.65% and the rarity of the trophy for getting 90 stars is 4.43%...

 

2nd Edit: Oh, you mentioned NFS already zGaete-, sorry I was still reading the topic when I answered...

Edited May 13, 2019 by llljulll

[TheYuriG]

My thread, from 2 years ago, if anyone wanna take a look. Ignored like everything else.

[ProfBambam55]

serious case of déjà vu here...i guess it has been awhile since this was discussed...for those interested in seeing the thread that led to the current dlc rarity calculation feel free to browse the one linked below...spoiler: it's basically the same discussion as this one...tl:dr, the debate on what stat psnp should use to define a "dlc owner"?...nice to see some familiar faces...

 

[AJ_Radio]

13 hours ago, Sinthoras_96 said:

I honestly highly doubt that there are plenty of people who have the challenge dlc trophies in dishonored without 100% completion. The only reason to go through this nightmare of trophies is to achieve 100% completion. 

 

And yeah, what you said about the system is correct. I just wish that free dlcs/complete editions would count all game owners. 

 

Well again, nobody is required to do them. That’s the kind of attitude where as a completionist they have to force themselves to do a challenging task that involves RNG. Others will otherwise just skip stuff like that and move on.

 

Right now I think the system is fine. Just because Complete Editions include the DLC doesn’t mean everybody will do it.