(Discussion)should you get flagged for late syncs?

[hBLOXs]

4 hours ago, charxsetsuna said:

Anyways this thread is never going to get anywhere, might as well close it. We were all talking about late syncing new trophies but the CRT thought we were talking about overriding timestamps. Now they wont flag clear cases of save usage because they got the wrong end of the stick even though that literally wasnt what we were talking about.

If I meant overriding trophies I would have put that but I didnt and 99% of people understood . People are trying to pin the blame on me for everything and that's not fair, 1% of people didnt understand so I'm to fault for making it go off track.

I didnt expand on the topic because I didnt want to influence people and everyone still understood.

I didnt put a time frame for late syncs because its purely subjective.

The poll was there for a general gauge of thoughts, as I said on a post in the first page of the thread.

 

There were childish reactions everywhere but I feel like I'm the only person who apologised and now I feel like I'm being scapegoated for something I had no way of predicting or controlling.

 

 

Maybe if you stopped acting like you’re an authority on everything and your thoughts/opinions/behavior were the center of any topic you choose to weigh in on you would also get closure on that “woe is me! Everybody is scapegoating me!” sensation you’re now whining about.

 

You DO realize that this thread is not about you, right? 

 

YOU felt a dispute (in which you had no real contribution) needed more expanding, complained several times that the discussion YOU wanted to have was closed down by the CRT so you threw up a thread with half-assed background information. Congratulations, you got a discussion going with lots of people now taking an interest. Could you please now stop acting as if the CRT (and site in general) needs your moderation?

[majob]

34 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

I'm actually ok with that, even if the ps4 leaderboard won't be completely clean its probably the best option atm.

 

Actually no let's get rid of the leaderboards, no leaderboards no drama. No one has to be flagged if there are no leaderboards.

Is your name Sly?

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, majob said:

Is your name Sly?

Yes its sly, sly bonds 

[Berendsapje]

To be honest, I've seen many posts about the leaderboards, but hacked trophies also affect rarity. Many people ate trying to go for rare platinums, a considerable amount of hunters scoffs at any platinum with Uncommon rarity at best, and other hunters make it a goal to get like 5 Ultra Rare platinum trophies in a year or something. This issue would also affect them, when CFW users attempt to use the "Oh I synced late" excuse, taking away credibility from honest people with late syncing when they're eventually caught. 

 

About the entire issue, like probably a lot of others suggested, look at the rest of the profile. This is in no way flawless, but if a guy has other weird lists, flag him. A late sync alone is not really grounds for flagging, although this creates issues down the road (see above). The CRT has it tough enough as it is. It is an incredibly grey issue in my mind though, so no real answer is going to satisfy anyone.

 

By the way, anyone notice B1rvine is a lot more forgiving in the disputes? And poor OP's notifications are probably off the charts right now, so I'll be silent after this.

[charxsetsuna]

3 minutes ago, Berendsapje said:

To be honest, I've seen many posts about the leaderboards, but hacked trophies also affect rarity. Many people ate trying to go for rare platinums, a considerable amount of hunters scoffs at any platinum with Uncommon rarity at best, and other hunters make it a goal to get like 5 Ultra Rare platinum trophies in a year or something. This issue would also affect them, when CFW users attempt to use the "Oh I synced late" excuse, taking away credibility from honest people with late syncing when they're eventually caught. 

 

About the entire issue, like probably a lot of others suggested, look at the rest of the profile. This is in no way flawless, but if a guy has other weird lists, flag him. A late sync alone is not really grounds for flagging, although this creates issues down the road (see above). The CRT has it tough enough as it is. It is an incredibly grey issue in my mind though, so no real answer is going to satisfy anyone.

 

By the way, anyone notice B1rvine is a lot more forgiving in the disputes? And poor OP's notifications are probably off the charts right now, so I'll be silent after this.

My notifications actually aren't that bad ,I update my psnprofiles forum account every 5 minutes or so , I update everything obsessively it ain't just trophies.?

 

Expect my trophy profile I don't,  only when I get a trophy so maybe theres exceptions.

Edited May 28, 2020 by charxsetsuna

[diskdocx]

I'd like to throw my 2cents into the ring.

 

I think the CRT has a thankless job. I'm sure it isn't an easy task, as most of the time you are dealing with difficult people, and I know this isn't a full time job. That said, I think most of the time you guys/gals get the flags right. The number of disputes that are legit are few and far between.

 

The problem comes around the legit disputes and how the rules get defined.

 

My opinion is at the end of the day, it should be the community that determines those rules. It's never going to please everyone, but if the community that uses this site, supports this site, pays the subscriptions for this site, by majority is in favor of a particular rule, that should probably be adopted.

 

The leaderboards won't ever be perfect. I think the CRT does a great job of removing the worst offenders. Certainly most other sites don't bother to try. But if the leaderboard can't be completely clean, is it better to remove a legit user wrongly, or let a cheater stay? - I think the latter, while not ideal, is better than the former. If any doubt, err on the side of lifting the flag.

 

Regarding the OP, I think that there can be a number of reasons for a late sync. Some may be legit, based on how someone games. I don't have any significant late syncs, with the exception of a couple of games I played before the trophy list was live. I understand others, for a variety of reasons, prefer to keep certain games offline until finished and they sync then.

 

Perhaps the fair compromise is to allow a late sync other than for situations where the servers are offline. Once that happens, maybe there is a 3 mo grace period to finish the game and sync it. After that, it gets a flag. Is that something the community could live with? It allows folks to get on that 'old console in mom's basement' and sync, without being more likely to be CFW. After that, the onus shifts to the user to have concrete evidence.

 

Which leads to a separate point - we need some extra transparency from the CRT. The burden being on the person disputing may not be reasonable. How does one 'prove' innocence? In law, the burden is to prove guilt, beyond reasonable doubt. How would one prove they didn't use CFW? If wrongly flagged, I'm not sure that there could be proof. It is very difficult to prove a negative.

 

In the case of the initial dispute -

If I understand, the use  synced the game with the online trophies earned now - which is impossible. But then fixed it by syncing 'an old console' with the correct trophy time stamps.

 

That flag should not be lifted. The 'oh I used CFW to pop the trophies, but went back and used an old console, so it's actually legit....'. Well, no. That's not a late sync, that's a case of fixing CFW, and there is no dispute that the original trophies were popped with CFW. User should remain flagged/banned.

 

On the otherhand, a dispute like this

I would think the CRT needs to be a bit more transparent than we found a discord with a similar user name, you are someone else, CFW, closed....I don't see that as a valid response.

 

The CRT should not be subject to abuse. That's not fair, and that's not reasonable. But the CRT should be transparent, and clear regarding rules and how they are enforced. The CRT also shouldn't be expected to be perfect, and can make a mistake. There needs to be an open mechanism to work through disputes without reprisal.

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, diskdocx said:

I'd like to throw my 2cents into the ring.

 

I think the CRT has a thankless job. I'm sure it isn't an easy task, as most of the time you are dealing with difficult people, and I know this isn't a full time job. That said, I think most of the time you guys/gals get the flags right. The number of disputes that are legit are few and far between.

 

The problem comes around the legit disputes and how the rules get defined.

 

My opinion is at the end of the day, it should be the community that determines those rules. It's never going to please everyone, but if the community that uses this site, supports this site, pays the subscriptions for this site, by majority is in favor of a particular rule, that should probably be adopted.

 

The leaderboards won't ever be perfect. I think the CRT does a great job of removing the worst offenders. Certainly most other sites don't bother to try. But if the leaderboard can't be completely clean, is it better to remove a legit user wrongly, or let a cheater stay? - I think the latter, while not ideal, is better than the former. If any doubt, err on the side of lifting the flag.

 

Regarding the OP, I think that there can be a number of reasons for a late sync. Some may be legit, based on how someone games. I don't have any significant late syncs, with the exception of a couple of games I played before the trophy list was live. I understand others, for a variety of reasons, prefer to keep certain games offline until finished and they sync then.

 

Perhaps the fair compromise is to allow a late sync other than for situations where the servers are offline. Once that happens, maybe there is a 3 mo grace period to finish the game and sync it. After that, it gets a flag. Is that something the community could live with? It allows folks to get on that 'old console in mom's basement' and sync, without being more likely to be CFW. After that, the onus shifts to the user to have concrete evidence.

 

Which leads to a separate point - we need some extra transparency from the CRT. The burden being on the person disputing may not be reasonable. How does one 'prove' innocence? In law, the burden is to prove guilt, beyond reasonable doubt. How would one prove they didn't use CFW? If wrongly flagged, I'm not sure that there could be proof. It is very difficult to prove a negative.

 

In the case of the initial dispute -

If I understand, the use  synced the game with the online trophies earned now - which is impossible. But then fixed it by syncing 'an old console' with the correct trophy time stamps.

 

That flag should not be lifted. The 'oh I used CFW to pop the trophies, but went back and used an old console, so it's actually legit....'. Well, no. That's not a late sync, that's a case of fixing CFW, and there is no dispute that the original trophies were popped with CFW. User should remain flagged/banned.

 

On the otherhand, a dispute like this

I would think the CRT needs to be a bit more transparent than we found a discord with a similar user name, you are someone else, CFW, closed....I don't see that as a valid response.

 

The CRT should not be subject to abuse. That's not fair, and that's not reasonable. But the CRT should be transparent, and clear regarding rules and how they are enforced. The CRT also shouldn't be expected to be perfect, and can make a mistake. There needs to be an open mechanism to work through disputes without reprisal.

The disputes dont follow innocent until proven guilty, they never claimed they did. Not sure where this obsession with trying to apply court rules to disputes started.

Is three months the length of a college/uni semester? That seems the most likely reason for a late sync and not having access to a console maybe we should base it around how long a semester is plus a month to allow people time to get home and settled in, up to the CRT at the end of the day though.

[hBLOXs]

I guess that’s a “No!” then. ?

[charxsetsuna]

Someone is going to be kicked in the balls regardless of what happens, there's no solution where everyone remains unkicked in the balls. Well I guess if your dont have them to begin with your a winner. 

 

[B1rvine]

I'd be a millionaire right now, if I got a dollar for every time someone messaged me something similar, BEFORE they're even reported:

 

"I'm sorry, I purposely didn't sync on my first console, and now my timestamps are impossible since they're based on auto-unlocked save files from my second PS3/4/V' save file that was transferred there, and won't show properly on this website"

 

I'd say 50% of these messages are new accounts after their first account was removed for 100% confirmed cheating.

 

@diskdocx TrophyDad is his third account (more like his 100th, actually), after two were removed for more easily understood cheating, and his IP address matches LegendBowers. The PSNP discord forces you to link your PSNP account, so we know who everyone is and isn't. It's not anonymous. I just posted that so "noobs" would easily understand it more.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by B1rvine

[TheRealClayman]

48 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

The disputes dont follow innocent until proven guilty, they never claimed they did. Not sure where this obsession with trying to apply court rules to disputes started.

 

 

How about because that's how pretty much everything and everywhere in the real world works?

 

And how about addressing the real meat of the quoted post? One, showing obvious signs of cheating versus one where gut feelings and we don't get to see what's happening behind the scenes and circumstantial at best evidence is used to determine a users guilt?

 

 

[charxsetsuna]

2 minutes ago, TheRealClayman said:

 

How about because that's how pretty much everything and everywhere in the real world works?

 

And how about addressing the real meat of the quoted post? One, showing obvious signs of cheating versus one where gut feelings and we don't get to see what's happening behind the scenes and circumstantial at best evidence is used to determine a users guilt?

 

 

It is what it is, they have access to more tools than us , maybe theres more evidence of  cheating there but only CRT can see it.  I agree we shouldn't flag people on our gut feeling though , just pointing out CRT has more resources to see patterns.

[B1rvine]

3 minutes ago, TheRealClayman said:

And how about addressing the real meat of the quoted post?

 

That's hard to do without any definable rules on "what CFW usage is"

[diskdocx]

53 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

The disputes dont follow innocent until proven guilty, they never claimed they did. Not sure where this obsession with trying to apply court rules to disputes started.

Is three months the length of a college/uni semester? That seems the most likely reason for a late sync and not having access to a console maybe we should base it around how long a semester is plus a month to allow people time to get home and settled in, up to the CRT at the end of the day though.

I think you have really missed my point. I'm not saying this should follow criminal justice system.

 

What I am asking, if the CRT says they can't distinguish between late sync and CFW, what proof would be reasonable by the flagged player?

 

Since you have to prove innocence.

 

I get the challenge here - as i said, I don't envy the CRT. They won't make everyone happy. But can we, as a community, come to a decision that most people can live with, and offer that as a suggestion to the CRT?

 

Something better than either every late sync is ignored (which seems to be the decision in the first dispute I posted, despite clear evidence to the contrary), or sorry, CFW because reasons (which was the decision in the second dispute).

 

Is there a happy medium? A set of expectations for the person disputing? If there isn't anything that can be offered as proof as it is entirely impossible to distinguish late sync from CFW, then I think the CRT is going to have to accept the late sync excuse, even if that means some illegitimate users remain on the leaderboard.

[charxsetsuna]

To talk about a persons appearance we must first see what the person looks like.

 

 

Just now, diskdocx said:

I think you have really missed my point. I'm not saying this should follow criminal justice system.

 

What I am asking, if the CRT says they can't distinguish between late sync and CFW, what proof would be reasonable by the flagged player?

 

Since you have to prove innocence.

 

I get the challenge here - as i said, I don't envy the CRT. They won't make everyone happy. But can we, as a community, come to a decision that most people can live with, and offer that as a suggestion to the CRT?

 

Something better than either every late sync is ignored (which seems to be the decision in the first dispute I posted, despite clear evidence to the contrary), or sorry, CFW because reasons (which was the decision in the second dispute).

 

Is there a happy medium? A set of expectations for the person disputing? If there isn't anything that can be offered as proof as it is entirely impossible to distinguish late sync from CFW, then I think the CRT is going to have to accept the late sync excuse, even if that means some illegitimate users remain on the leaderboard.

There is no situation where everyone remains unkicked in the balls. 

Someone is going to be on the floor in pain regardless of what we do.

[TheRealClayman]

2 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

To talk about a persons appearance we must first see what the person looks like.

 

 

This doesn't even make sense. You should never concern yourself with anyone's appearance and only worry about yourself and how you want yourself to appear.

[charxsetsuna]

7 minutes ago, TheRealClayman said:

This doesn't even make sense. You should never concern yourself with anyone's appearance and only worry about yourself and how you want yourself to appear.

It..it was a analogy..

[Helyx]

19 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

To talk about a persons appearance we must first see what the person looks like.

 

I feel some of your comments in this thread has shown the community what you look like.

[Dylan-Mehl]

Maybe not really on-topic but as everyone is arguing on this subject here.

 

Years back (somewhere early 2015), when I was a young kid playing games I used a Save Data from the internet to pop 4 trophies of the LittleBigPlanet 2 dlc. I didn't had the Move Controller back then which was required for some of those trophies. Till this day I am still flagged because of it. It was not even in my knowledge that earning trophies in this manner was resulting in getting flagged.

I have never done it before, and never did it after. I was young, did not had enough money for the special controller so I just could not get the 100% trophies.

They should reconsider to remove the flag if it was a one-time only. And if it is visible that the rest of the profile is legit. Ofcourse this will create some gray-area where people can auto pop trophies and use the "But it was a one-time only.." card. Not sure how they should handle that. There is definitly a difference per situation. Earning an unobtainable trophy by using mods or hacks is in my opinion different, it is worst.

You can check my profile and see I just have a passion to gaming and earning trophies. It definitly sucks that the biggest site for tracking your progress shows me my wrong milestones because I have to hide one game because of 4 dlc trophies.

There is a this big "H" (hidden) icon on my profile which makes me kinda look like a cheater.

All this only because lil me fucked-up and did some things without understanding the consequences it would give me in the future.

[Starcade_Legend]

After 24 hours on this one topic of late trophy syncing, look at all the ‘chaos’.

 

”You know... You know what I've noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan." Even if the plan is horrifying! If, tomorrow, I tell the press that, like, a gang banger will get shot (use your own game save), or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up (entered a hacked Black Ops 2 lobby unknowingly), nobody panics, because it's all "part of the plan". But when I say that one little old mayor (‘elite’ gamer) will die (has to play games, like...normally), well then everyone loses their minds. Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!” ——- Heath Ledger

 

All aboard the cotton candy and pig-judging express!  ?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Starcade_Legend
Grammar/Punctuation

[Velvet]

58 minutes ago, charxsetsuna said:

Someone is going to be kicked in the balls regardless of what happens, there's no solution where everyone remains unkicked in the balls. Well I guess if your dont have them to begin with your a winner. 

 

 

 

[Helyx]

2 minutes ago, Starcade_Legend said:

I'm an agent of chaos.

 

But, did you see that Ballchinian?

[Mesopithecus]

1 minute ago, Dylan-Mehl said:

Maybe not really on-topic but as everyone is arguing on this subject here.

 

Years back (somewhere early 2015), when I was a young kid playing games I used a Save Data from the internet to pop 4 trophies of the LittleBigPlanet 2 dlc. I didn't had the Move Controller back then which was required for some of those trophies. Till this day I am still flagged because of it. It was not even in my knowledge that earning trophies in this manner was resulting in getting flagged.

I have never done it before, and never did it after. I was young, did not had enough money for the special controller so I just could not get the 100% trophies.

They should reconsider to remove the flag if it was a one-time only. And if it is visible that the rest of the profile is legit. Ofcourse this will create some gray-area where people can auto pop trophies and use the "But it was a one-time only.." card. Not sure how they should handle that. There is definitly a difference per situation. Earning an unobtainable trophy by using mods or hacks is in my opinion different, it is worst.

You can check my profile and see I just have a passion to gaming and earning trophies. It definitly sucks that the biggest site for tracking your progress shows me my wrong milestones because I have to hide one game because of 4 dlc trophies.

There is a this big "H" (hidden) icon on my profile which makes me kinda look like a cheater.

All this only because lil me fucked-up and did some things without understanding the consequences it would give me in the future.

 

I don't think the CRT should consider removing the flag, as you admitted to using a save file and that is against the rules of the leaderboard.  You didn't late sync which is what this topic is about, so I don't even know how your post relates to the topic at hand.

 

Either way you're correctly flagged and there is already a "3 flags and you're off the leaderboard permanently rule" so I don't think you should get a free pass with this.  If you're so upset about the milestones just un-hide LBP2 - you won't be on the leaderboards anymore but you still have all your stats and access to everything else on the site.

[charxsetsuna]

I mean I dont look anything like what most people think I do on here???. One bad analogy and suddenly the bad joke police arrive.

 

What does sly say about this anyways,  his opinion is legitimately the most important since he owns the place. You could say we are merely visiting the house ?

[TheLakota]

1 minute ago, charxsetsuna said:

One bad analogy and suddenly the bad joke police arrive.

 

Look man, quit busting my balls alright?