Platinum Difficulty Ratings - A Question

[DrBloodmoney]

22 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

I haven't had time to contribute to this discussion, even though I think it is a good one to have, and I'm glad that so many people are participating as well

Now, I will probably forget a couple of points I wanted to adress, but let's see: 

 

First of all... In my opinion, the only, and I mean only thing that should contribute to the difficulty rating is how much skill the player needs to develop / is required by the player to achieve the platinum. The grind, the RNG, the length... all of that does not matter and is ultimately covered by the "length estimate" of the guide. My favorite example is Oh...Sir! The Insult Simulator. You are basically just pressing X, but the trophies are so RNG-heavy that the platinum estimate is 100+ hours. However, the RNG doesn't make the game more difficult... it's basically My Name is Mayo with added RNG...

If you were to consider the RNG factor for the difficulty estimate, you would have redundant information that is already covered by the length estimate. 

 

 

Further, I have seen a comment that the scale 1/10 is too narrow, and that's where the problems come from. I actually think it is the opposite. I think the scale is too wide. Let me make an example... Personally, if I had to use a 1-10 scale, I would rate the following games I've played as follows: 

• Super Meat Boy: 8/10
• Trials Fusion: 9/10
• Crypt of the NecroDancer: 10/10

Now, anyone can disagree with the above, telling me that SMB is at least a 9/10, or Trials Fusion isn't harder than SMB, or whatever. However, what every single player that has finished those three games can agree upon is, that they are all fucking tough to complete. Does it matter whether they are 8/10 or 9/10? Isn't the thing that matters that they are all very skill-intensive? 

 

For example, again using games I've completed myself, who would disagree with the following categorization?

• Easy: Oxenfree, Undertale, Inside, A Way Out, Detroit: Become Human,...
• Moderate: Final Fantasy X, God of War 2018, Horizon Zero Dawn, Transistor,...
• Hard: Nex Machina, Titan Souls, Furi, Hollow Knight, Action Henk,...
• Extreme: Super Meat Boy, Trials Fusion, Warhammer: Vermintide 2,...

That's why I don't use a scaling as such anymore for my own ratings and in my Trophy Checklist. Instead, I use self-designed gauge thingys, for example: 

 

 

"But Arc, that's just a scale from 1-5"... Sure it is, but to me, it doesn't "feel" like a numbered scale... 

 

 

I think you make some excellent points - on the subject of the 5point system, as opposed to the 10 point scale, there is a lot of merit - particularly in the fact that on a 10 point scale, there is no middle point.

A game that is exactly average would be neither a 5, nor a 6.

 

I do think it might be too limiting for difficulty at the low end though - as examples you cite- Detroit, Oxenfree, Inside and A Way Out - while easy, certainly - I do think need to have some separation from a Mayo, or a Slyde, or even from a Walking Dead or other Post-WD Telltale game. 

 

They are all easy, and would all likely be in the lowest category for a 5-point system, but there is a non-trivial difference between them. 

Detroit might be easy, but comparative to Slyde? There needs to be some distinction, in my personal opinion.

 

I think what would end up happening with a 5-point scale, would be that every guide writer would end up putting in caveats - "This is a 'soft 4'" or "this is a 'tough 2'" etc., where they are essentially adding in custom increments of 'half-points', and in essence retro-fitting a nine point scale back onto the 5-point system ?

 

On the other hand thought least a 9 point scale does have an actual middle 

Edited April 9, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Baranov_925]

1/10 Witcher 3
2/10 Sekiro
3/10 Bloodborne
...
11/10 relationship with girl

[LancashireLad87]

7 hours ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

You're talking about the Wipeout Omega Collection right? Wipeout HD can no longer be done if you didn't get the online trophies before early 2018.

 

I have seen the games and they look downright brutal.

 

No this is for Wipeout HD I'm sure the Omega Collection has it's fair share of platinum breakers. Yes the games are very challenging but doable with enough practice and cat-like reflexes to steer your way to victory on Elite difficulty. Apparently there's an exploit for Zone Zeus which requires you to reach Zone 75, each Zone lasts for 10 seconds, so you need to survive for 750 seconds in order to get the trophy. 

 

Yes sadly the online was canned otherwise I would have been able to get both the platinum trophy and the 100%. I personally didn't use this glitch which there's a video for on the Wipeout sub-forums which would altar the games difficulty. RThe same can be said for Blazblue Central Fiction if you use the trial mode exploit to get the all trials completed with 1 character trophy then the rating would be very different to someone who cleared the trials legitimately. Not too mention that character trials are not made equally some characters are easier than others and vice versa, I completed Ragna's but I think a lot of people say Susanoo is much easier.  

[AihaLoveleaf]

49 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

My favorite example is Oh...Sir! The Insult Simulator. You are basically just pressing X, but the trophies are so RNG-heavy that the platinum estimate is 100+ hours.

Wow, now this is a new one for me. My first impression after looking at the trophy page was that this is like Ratalaika for Ultra Rare collectors.

[AJ_Radio]

1 hour ago, Arcesius said:

Further, I have seen a comment that the scale 1/10 is too narrow, and that's where the problems come from. I actually think it is the opposite. I think the scale is too wide. Let me make an example... Personally, if I had to use a 1-10 scale, I would rate the following games I've played as follows: 

• Super Meat Boy: 8/10
• Trials Fusion: 9/10
• Crypt of the NecroDancer: 10/10

Now, anyone can disagree with the above, telling me that SMB is at least a 9/10, or Trials Fusion isn't harder than SMB, or whatever. However, what every single player that has finished those three games can agree upon is, that they are all fucking tough to complete. Does it matter whether they are 8/10 or 9/10? Isn't the thing that matters that they are all very skill-intensive? 

 

For example, again using games I've completed myself, who would disagree with the following categorization?

• Easy: Oxenfree, Undertale, Inside, A Way Out, Detroit: Become Human,...
• Moderate: Final Fantasy X, God of War 2018, Horizon Zero Dawn, Transistor,...
• Hard: Nex Machina, Titan Souls, Furi, Hollow Knight, Action Henk,...
• Extreme: Super Meat Boy, Trials Fusion, Warhammer: Vermintide 2,...

That's why I don't use a scaling as such anymore for my own ratings and in my Trophy Checklist. Instead, I use self-designed gauge thingys, for example: 

 

 

"But Arc, that's just a scale from 1-5"... Sure it is, but to me, it doesn't "feel" like a numbered scale... 

 

 

This is where I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

 

You obviously know these are your personal ratings. I think the guide writers should take into account the difficulty based on the average gamer, who does not possess the skill and time to platinum something as daunting as Crypt of the Necrodancer. That's basically a fact whether people say it or not, the time commitment alone would throw over 99 percent of everybody off. That's probably the #1 hardest game on PSN you can get a platinum in, I think there's enough video evidence and written statements from guys like Floriiss that back this up.

 

We talked about Super Meat Boy in the past and you disagreed with some of my points. PSNProfiles is basically the #1 website for trophy hunters, there is no other equal (PST.org has only a fraction of people that PSNP does). The trophy guide should at the very least reflect a 9 - 9.5 out of 10 difficulty for Super Meat Boy, taking into account the average person who doesn't have cat like reflexes and has a certain amount of patience.

 

I respect some of you guys who have insanely difficult games like Trials Fusion fully complete, but at the same time I get turned off a little because from time to time we reflect a little bit of 'elitism' in our mannerism, how we treat these games from a difficulty perspective and our advice to those wishing to start said games.

 

6 hours ago, Trumpet_Boi_208 said:

I’m not saying that Titanfall 2’s time trial was hard for me (I did it roughly 30 minutes after beating the campaign). However, in the comment section of the guide, Stricken says that the guide team encourages people to rate guides based on an average, rather than the highest trophy, but Vanquish does not abide by this standard. Even the guide writer says that every trophy in the game, excluding Tactical Challenger, was easy to do, which would have lowered the difficulty considerably if it were rated by an average. I’m just pointing out that there is sometimes a double standard when it comes to determining guide difficulty.

 

What I'm pointing out is Vanquish has one of the most obvious 'platinum breakers' out there. I mentioned I counted over 6000 accounts on this website who are at 91 percent trophy completion with only Tactical Challenger left, which is more than the number of people with the platinum. That's a lot of people who gave up on Challenge 6, which does require a lot of skill and effort to obtain. Everybody knows that by now.

[Arcesius]

6 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

This is where I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

 

We talked about Super Meat Boy in the past and you disagreed with some of my points. PSNProfiles is basically the #1 website for trophy hunters, there is no other equal (PST.org has only a fraction of people that PSNP does). The trophy guide should at the very least reflect a 9 - 9.5 out of 10 difficulty for Super Meat Boy, taking into account the average person who doesn't have cat like reflexes and has a certain amount of patience.

 

I respect some of you guys who have insanely difficult games like Trials Fusion fully complete, but at the same time I get turned off a little because from time to time we reflect a little bit of 'elitism' in our mannerism, how we treat these games from a difficulty perspective and our advice to those wishing to start said games.

 

I think you didn't really read carefully through my post, but this is exactly what I said above ? You and I can discuss whether SMB should be a 8/10 or a 9/10 or a 9.5/10 or whatever and still disagree, but we both would agree that it could be categorized as "Extreme" in a trophy guide, right?

 

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make above.  

Edited April 9, 2021 by Arcesius

[starcrunch061]

Yeah, following up on @Arcesius remark, I actually think the 1-10 system is strengthening elitism, rather than mitigating it.

 

(And from my gamefaqs training, to head anything off at the pass, I'm not making some comment about the "gatekeeping" tendencies of the trophy community, or any other silliness like this; I'm just saying that the 1-10 system seems to cause more arguments among trophy enthusiasts than it helps).

 

To give an example, years back, I said that Katamari Forever on the PS3 was about a 5 out of 10 difficulty. Someone really took me to task on this, saying "absolutely not!". His reasoning? It was a 4. 

 

Really? You can draw that kind of distinction between a 4 and a 5 on the scale? Because I sure can't. And this happens so much, it's not even funny. While not as dogged in his beliefs, another person told me that GH:Metallica didn't deserve a 9 out of 10. It was clearly an 8. 

 

I really like the idea of "easy", "moderate", "hard" and "extreme", although we need one more difficulty: "Rat". I think we know what that is. ?

 

Another thing: while I am a firm believer that time should absolutely matter, our guides have a place for mentioning exactly how long a game is. Yes - sometimes those time estimates are bullshit, but I generally find them to be quite good. Thus, if someone is rolling time into their difficulty rating, at the very least, this should be mentioned somewhere, since the writer is double-dipping, of sort.

[Together_Comic]

5 hours ago, Arcesius said:

I haven't had time to contribute to this discussion, even though I think it is a good one to have, and I'm glad that so many people are participating as well

Now, I will probably forget a couple of points I wanted to adress, but let's see: 

 

First of all... In my opinion, the only, and I mean only thing that should contribute to the difficulty rating is how much skill the player needs to develop / is required by the player to achieve the platinum. The grind, the RNG, the length... all of that does not matter and is ultimately covered by the "length estimate" of the guide. My favorite example is Oh...Sir! The Insult Simulator. You are basically just pressing X, but the trophies are so RNG-heavy that the platinum estimate is 100+ hours. However, the RNG doesn't make the game more difficult... it's basically My Name is Mayo with added RNG...

If you were to consider the RNG factor for the difficulty estimate, you would have redundant information that is already covered by the length estimate. 

 

 

Further, I have seen a comment that the scale 1/10 is too narrow, and that's where the problems come from. I actually think it is the opposite. I think the scale is too wide. Let me make an example... Personally, if I had to use a 1-10 scale, I would rate the following games I've played as follows: 

• Super Meat Boy: 8/10
• Trials Fusion: 9/10
• Crypt of the NecroDancer: 10/10

Now, anyone can disagree with the above, telling me that SMB is at least a 9/10, or Trials Fusion isn't harder than SMB, or whatever. However, what every single player that has finished those three games can agree upon is, that they are all fucking tough to complete. Does it matter whether they are 8/10 or 9/10? Isn't the thing that matters that they are all very skill-intensive? 

 

For example, again using games I've completed myself, who would disagree with the following categorization?

• Easy: Oxenfree, Undertale, Inside, A Way Out, Detroit: Become Human,...
• Moderate: Final Fantasy X, God of War 2018, Horizon Zero Dawn, Transistor,...
• Hard: Nex Machina, Titan Souls, Furi, Hollow Knight, Action Henk,...
• Extreme: Super Meat Boy, Trials Fusion, Warhammer: Vermintide 2,...

That's why I don't use a scaling as such anymore for my own ratings and in my Trophy Checklist. Instead, I use self-designed gauge thingys, for example: 

 

 

"But Arc, that's just a scale from 1-5"... Sure it is, but to me, it doesn't "feel" like a numbered scale... ?

 

 

4 hours ago, Arcesius said:

 

I think you didn't really read carefully through my post, but this is exactly what I said above ? You and I can discuss whether SMB should be a 8/10 or a 9/10 or a 9.5/10 or whatever and still disagree, but we both would agree that it could be categorized as "Extreme" in a trophy guide, right?

 

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make above.  

 

 

I think this works really well for games at the extreme ends of the difficulty spectrum.  The point about SMB is a point well made, as another example, I don't really care if the game is a 1/10, 2/10, 3/10,  I'd just categorize those as easy.  Who cares that mayo is a 1/10 and 36 fractures of midnight is a 2/10  they are both so easy that the distinction is irrelevant. But I think it lacks nuance for games that fall somewhere in between the moderate and hard categories.  Using games that I've played as examples where would I put things like Crash Bandicoot which for me fall somewhere between Moderate to Hard.  Do I lean towards the more difficult side? or Do I move toward the easier side? I think this is where the 10 point scale shines. The nuance lets me shift from 5 (moderate) to 6 without hitting 7(Hard).  Or to give another example Everybody's Golf.  I'd place it somewhere in the Moderate category (5/10), but the guide has it listed as 8/10.  Which I think is fair, because a certain portion of the game can be really difficult, but if you're willing to grind for 5-10 hours (or spend real money in the games shop but F that)  you can make the game much easier by upgrading your custom clubs.  I wouldn't really know where to put such a game in the 5 point scale. but for a 10 point scale I could reasonably put it at 6 or 7 and have it not have such a wide gap between the grinding player and the nongrinding player.  I think when players see moderate they would think 4-5/10 when they see hard they would think 7-8/10.  That being said, in your first post you mentioned that it should be equal to the skill you need to develop so if we take that as a baseline I think we can put the game in moderate because the option to grind it out is there.  Perhaps the nuance isn't particularly useful.  It's an interesting conversation to say the least.

Edited April 9, 2021 by Together_Comic

[dannyswfc9]

I was thinking about plat difficulty on games just yesterday. 

Most games would be higher in difficulty if there wernt so many guides and video walkthroughs.

Ive just recently done the non lethal trophies on dishonored 2 and without following a vid walkthrough, clean hands and ghostly would make this plat a 7/8 even tho its been said on the guides its a 3/4. 

I think more games need a plat diff with a guide and without to give more clarity

[DrBloodmoney]

19 hours ago, dannyswfc9 said:

I was thinking about plat difficulty on games just yesterday. 

Most games would be higher in difficulty if there wernt so many guides and video walkthroughs.

Ive just recently done the non lethal trophies on dishonored 2 and without following a vid walkthrough, clean hands and ghostly would make this plat a 7/8 even tho its been said on the guides its a 3/4. 

I think more games need a plat diff with a guide and without to give more clarity

 

I would completely agree with you - if it weren't for the fact that the only place the difficulty rating is surfaced on the site is in the guides - so given that the only way to see a 'without guide' difficulty rating would be... after someone had already gone into a guide, it's probably a bit moot, at least in term of PSNP 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[dannyswfc9]

5 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I would completely agree with you - if it weren't for the fact that the only place the difficulty rating is surfaced on the site is in the guides - so given that the only way to see a 'without guide' difficulty rating would be... after someone had already gone into a guide, it's probably a bit moot, at least in term of PSNP 

 

Yeah fair point actually. Didnt think of it in that sense

[DrBloodmoney]

3 minutes ago, dannyswfc9 said:

Yeah fair point actually. Didnt think of it in that sense

I’d add though - that’s not to say it wouldn’t be handy info to have!

 

If the site had a way to surface it better, maybe on the game trophy list page rather than in the guide itself, I, for one, would find the comparison between the two interesting to see

[Shua_J]

On 4/6/2021 at 8:43 AM, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

If one trophy is a 7/10 difficulty for me and 40 other trophies are a 4/10, I'm supposed to feel accurate giving the platinum effort a 7/10? I don't see that.

Black Ops 3 and Wolfenstein 2 would like a word with you.

[KenjiCBZ]

In my opinion:

 

1/10: Extremely easy games that take few seconds/minutes to plat with basically zero efforts, basically you buy the Platinum, not the game itself.

 

Example: Slyde

 

 

2/10: Something still really easy but that takes a bit more time and little dedication, it's still braindead easy but you actually have to do something, this time.

 

Example: My Name is Mayo

 

3/10: Easy, most times story driven, games that just require you to beat the game for the Platinum, with no actual difficult things, since the game and the story themselves are really straightforward.

 

Examples: Batman: The Telltale Series

Undertale

 

4/10: Similar to that, but there is something more and  harder than the previous examples, such as finding collectables, solving puzzles, and/or backtracking. Still easy, but it takes more dedication.

 

Example: Life is Strange

 

5/10: Games that have no particularly difficulty Trophies and whose list is straightforward, but the game is not a walk in the park and sometimes you may get stuck: however, once you beat the game and you get the Platinum, if you ever decide to do it a second time, it would now really be a walk in the park and take much less time.

 

Example: Jak and Daxter: The Precursor Legacy

 

6/10: Most games, the ones whose Trophy lists are standard and straightforward, with some difficulty Trophies that are, however, not a big deal, and that even most casual players can do, if they dedicate enough, as well as some grinding ones.

 

Examples: Detroit: Become Human

Portal Knights

The Last of Us Remastered

Uncharted: The Nathan Drake Collection

WWE 2K20

 

7/10: There are still some hard Trophies but this time the Trophy list is more varied, and the player is required to tackle various things, all of them being difficulty, or the skill level required for some Trophies is higher than before, and you actually need to be a good player.

 

Examples: Crash Bandicoot N.Sane Trilogy

Knack 2

Rayman Legends

Rayman Origins

 

8/10: Some Trophies are really hard and take a lot of skill, more than the one required before, and also the required grind increase. 

 

Examples: Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Z

Falll Guys: Ultimate Knockout

Rayman 3 HD

Steep

 

9/10: A lot of difficulty things to tackle, and a lot of grind awaiting as well, at the point that the Trophies seem to be inconsistently designed and may make you decide to give up.

 

Examples: Dragon Ball: Raging Blast

WipEout Omega Collection

 

10/10: Borderline impossibile games to tackle due to them being incredibly difficulty, or requiring a ridicolous amount of grinding. Or directly, games whose Platinum is actually unobtainable.

 

Examples: APB Reloaded

Crypt of the Necrodancer

[dannyswfc9]

2 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I’d add though - that’s not to say it wouldn’t be handy info to have!

 

If the site had a way to surface it better, maybe on the game trophy list page rather than in the guide itself, I, for one, would find the comparison between the two interesting to see

You might be on to something there dude. 

I know powerpyx sometimes mentions on his guides next to the difficulty rating another rating for example ( a rating with a guide or if its skill dependent or the dreaded words luck dependant. Always good info to have imo

Edited April 10, 2021 by dannyswfc9

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

1 hour ago, Shua_J said:

Black Ops 3 and Wolfenstein 2 would like a word with you.

Well, as I said previously, the overall difficulty exists on a slide imo. It isn't singularly determined by the one hardest trophy, but if the one hardest trophy is so impactful on the course of the platinum experience that it IS a case like Mein Leben, then that would just mean the difficulty is much more heavily weighed by it. It's not like Wolfenstein Whatever isn't a 9/10 difficulty, it's just that Mein Leben is SO ridiculous that yes, in that case the game's difficulty is pretty much completely reflected by that one trophy

[MaeveWileyy_]

Personally, I feel they should post a difficulty of the game plus the difficulty of the trophies.

 

Stardew Valley and the Assassin's Creed games are very easy games but they have singular trophies that are very hard. (Fector's Challenge and 100% for Hell On Wheels)

Whereas Lords Of The Fallen is quite difficult but the trophies are really easy, you get most of them from playing the game naturally and doing the easy boss challenges.

Edited April 11, 2021 by MaeveWileyy_

[Shua_J]

3 hours ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Well, as I said previously, the overall difficulty exists on a slide imo. It isn't singularly determined by the one hardest trophy, but if the one hardest trophy is so impactful on the course of the platinum experience that it IS a case like Mein Leben, then that would just mean the difficulty is much more heavily weighed by it. It's not like Wolfenstein Whatever isn't a 9/10 difficulty, it's just that Mein Leben is SO ridiculous that yes, in that case the game's difficulty is pretty much completely reflected by that one trophy

I get what you're saying. Difficulty ratings on a primarily trophy hunting website should be mostly related to the difficulty in obtaining the Platinum. However, I see value in having two categories for difficulty. A general trophy difficulty rating and a Platinum trophy difficulty rating. That way the user could easily infer when they see a general rating of 5/10 but a Platinum rating of 9/10...that there are one or two trophies that require a ton of extra work and may help the person on the fence at least give it a shot. I think the overall rating should remain with the Platinum...because that is the main reason most people start hunting in the first place and come here to formulate what they're going to play next on their own lists, get ideas for new and challenging games to play, reflect on their progress and have something to show friends.

A difficulty rating is a very hard thing to come up with accurately. First, each game usually has a difficulty setting inside the game itself...which vastly changes the gameplay experience in a ton of games. Final Fantasy 7 Remake is an excellent example of this as hard mode is nearly a completely different game altogether than the easier runs. Also, Mein Leben is also really a sliding difficulty pending how much time the player has invested in the FPS genre...especially concerning high level competitive play. If I were to have written the guide...I would have put the ML trophy at an 8 or 9...not a 10. But the thing you don't know is that I have over 5,000 private competitive matches played in Halo in 4v4 vs. other 4v4 competitive teams, another 5,000 matches online at max lvl 50 in Hardcore/Arena, Team Slayer and Doubles along with placing top 50 in a season of Game Battles on a 4v4 team that was just doing it for fun. My rating would not be a fair representation to the general hunter or even the experienced hunter that just usually stays away from or occasionally flirts with FPS. The same thing is happening with me right now with Super Meat Boy. I haven't played a proper platformer in 30 years...and that game is listed as a "9" in difficulty. It feels more like 12/10 for me right now because I'm back on the learning curve. It wont feel that way in a month...but the Platformer freaks out there probably think the game is more like a 7 or an 8. 

[AJ_Radio]

7 hours ago, KenjiCBZ said:

7/10: There are still some hard Trophies but this time the Trophy list is more varied, and the player is required to tackle various things, all of them being difficulty, or the skill level required for some Trophies is higher than before, and you actually need to be a good player.

 

Examples: Crash Bandicoot N.Sane Trilogy

Knack 2

Rayman Legends

Rayman Origins

As someone who just got the platinum in Rayman Origins I would agree only if you never played platformers before. 
 

It is around a 5.5 - 6 out of 10 difficulty wise in my books. The time trials in the last two areas (Smokey and Mecha) were difficult, as was the undead level and the underwater chest chase level. 
 

The game has very generous checkpoints and you probably need to play each level two - three times to get a basic understanding of how to speedrun them. 
 

People can argue but I’d put Rayman Origins around the same level as Crash Bandicoot, with Crash being slightly harder. In my opinion Knack 1 should take this spot, not Knack 2. 
 

Detroit: Become Human is definitely not a 6 out of 10. Maybe if you were to tackle it completely blind, but with a guide the vast majority of the game is easy.