Sony Wants to Repair its Relationship With its Indie Partners

[VigilantCrow]

11 hours ago, BrandedBerserk said:

Which indies are we talking? Vast majority of em in the store are utter garbage.

Isn't that exactly the problem we're talking about? You don't know the great indies because Sony's store only shows off the garbage.

 

If you're looking for hidden gems, it'll depend on your genre. A few I've enjoyed though are things like Phantom Doctrine (spy theme quasi xcom), Deathroad to Canada (side scroller beat em up),Void Bastards (Rogue Lite FPS), WarGroove ( Advanced Wars like) and They Are Billions (RTS defense builder).

[Baranov_925]

Maybe chocolates and flowers ( greater promotion of Indie games from Sony to gamers) will help?

[BrandedBerserk]

10 hours ago, VigilantCrow said:

Isn't that exactly the problem we're talking about? You don't know the great indies because Sony's store only shows off the garbage.

 

If you're looking for hidden gems, it'll depend on your genre. A few I've enjoyed though are things like Phantom Doctrine (spy theme quasi xcom), Deathroad to Canada (side scroller beat em up),Void Bastards (Rogue Lite FPS), WarGroove ( Advanced Wars like) and They Are Billions (RTS defense builder).

 

I'm well aware of the great indies and anyone with genuine interest will know as well but my statement remains, majority of em in the store are straight ass let's not pretend there's nothing but gems being released on the indie side. 

 

The great ones that get praised are well known or even up for pre order so I don't think finding them is an issue or at least not to me personally. 

Edited December 16, 2021 by BrandedBerserk

[AJ_Radio]

23 hours ago, BrandedBerserk said:

 

I'm well aware of the great indies and anyone with genuine interest will know as well but my statement remains, majority of em in the store are straight ass let's not pretend there's nothing but gems being released on the indie side. 

 

The great ones that get praised are well known or even up for pre order so I don't think finding them is an issue or at least not to me personally. 

 

Indies are usually very niche, outside of popular games like Shovel Knight, Transistor, Cuphead and Hollow Knight, they generally only attract a select audience who has a specific interest in a particular genre.

 

Then of course there are the hidden gems that you may not find just casually browsing the store, especially now that the Sony storefront is absolute shit. I wouldn't even consider the influx of EZ games to be actual quality games, they better resemble shovelware which is just throwing something out there to make a quick buck. Shovelware has always existed in the gaming industry.

 

These days I find the quality indie games to either be buried under the carpet or a bit overpriced. Meanwhile the garbage we get every week gets several hundred active players playing it. Turns out that business model works, so the quality suffers. Most of what we're getting is shit.

[DrBloodmoney]

On 16/12/2021 at 11:47 PM, BrandedBerserk said:

 

I'm well aware of the great indies and anyone with genuine interest will know as well but my statement remains, majority of em in the store are straight ass let's not pretend there's nothing but gems being released on the indie side. 

 

The great ones that get praised are well known or even up for pre order so I don't think finding them is an issue or at least not to me personally. 

The problem isn’t really as pointed or extreme for the “indie darlings” or the (God I hate this phrase) “Triple I’s”… 

…(you know the devs and games I mean: the bigger, more well regarded Indies - from the likes of Supergiant, Housemarque (before they were bought), Doublefine (before they were bought), or those games published or picked up by Devolver/ Annapurna/ etc.)

 

Those game don’t generally rely solely on good store placement, as they can at least get some kind of game-media awareness generated around them, and their audience is generally pretty ‘game savvy’ - they tend to know about a game independent of the store, and actively seek it out. They aren’t just perusing a store and buying those games on a whim - they’ve usually known about those games for a while via review sites, or word of mouth, or via forums like this one.

 

The problem is much more serious for the smaller indie teams - the ones making less polished, lower budget stuff. 

A lot of those are still games that are fun, or smart or interesting and worth playing, with good ideas - but not necessarily the graphical or technical polish to showcase well in a few screenshots or a minute long video.
 

They are the games which might be a bit janky, or wonky in some ways, and don’t compare to big AAA releases whatsoever, but are still made with heart and soul.
The actual ‘hidden gems’, if you will.

 

Without decent store placement, or any kind of platform or store push in their favour, they can tend to simply be lost in a sea of the truly cynical, money-gabbing trashware (the Breakthrough games and the Pig D’s and the likes.)

Because they don’t have the graphical edge, they can’t distinguish themselves effectively.

Word of mouth is hard to build if no one is aware of your game- and that happens, because they all pass it by, mistaking it for the sea of dross it sits next to in the store and isn’t effectively distinguished from.

 

Those are the games Sony needs to do something to really help out.

 

The Cupheads, and the Obra Dinn’s and the The Witnesses and the Shovel Knight’s of the world will make it, regardless of how much the store buries them (could they do better? - sure - but they’ll survive anyways based on reviews and general media chatter) - but the Gods Will Fall’s and the Through the Darkest of Times’s and the Tetragon’s and the Greak’s - they live and die by store placement, and Sony isn’t currently living up to it’s end of the deal.

 

This isn’t charity, nor is it asking Sony to cater to a niche audience without tangible benefit to them - it’s about the health of the industry over the long term.
Remember - a lot of the new and interesting concepts that are adopted and adapted and put into successful, big, ‘Triple A’ games have their genesis in small, indie games - that scene is the soil from which both the leading developers of the future, and the game ideas of tomorrow sprout.

 

It is in Sony (and Microsoft, and Steam, and Nintendo’s) interest to protect that pipeline of ideas and talent. By short-sightedly choking it off now, (whether by purposeful action or negligent inaction,) they are actually harming themselves. They are choking off their own profits 15 years from now.
They shouldn’t want to help that side of the industry out of charity or to look good - it shouldn’t be a PR move - it should be apparent to them that such a move is necessary for their own long-term self-preservation.

 

In the same spirit, gamers shouldn’t look at lower budget indie, and assume it’s all garbage -  even if they don’t personally want to play those games of any stripe. Even the most ‘Triple A-leaning’ player should really remember that by supporting that small indie scene - with cash maybe, but even just with word of mouth, or by not knocking smaller games that do some things right, even if they do a lot of things wrong - they are actually supporting the industry writ-large, and helping to secure the future for the games they will want to play… 5 / 10 / 15 years down the line. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Rozalia1]

Good to see this thread. The discoverability part has concerned me as it means that people can miss out on small indie games that they might be interested in but don't see on the store. Take for example Light Fairytale Episode 2. I check the store for new releases when it updates but I found out the game came out on here through the new trophy lists list on the home screen. I then checked the Playstation store and could not find it in new releases or ordering PS4 games newest to oldest. Searching the game by name was the only way I could make it show up. 

[BrandedBerserk]

21 hours ago, AJ_Radio said:

These days I find the quality indie games to either be buried under the carpet or a bit overpriced. Meanwhile the garbage we get every week gets several hundred active players playing it. Turns out that business model works, so the quality suffers. Most of what we're getting is shit.

 

Disagree with your last statement, there's quality and garbage on both sides it's just up to you to look for the quality ones. I play a mix of both and have no problem finding stuff to enjoy whether triple a or indie. 

 

I might be generalizing but most gamers and especially trophy hunters don't really care about indies to the point where they're willing to support day one even with the lower price point. Could Sony do a better job at giving some of em spotlight? Sure but I doubt that will have any major impact if not enough people buy the game in the first place. The reality is that not every smaller scale game that is of quality or has good ideas will succeed in such a massive market. I know of many obscure indies with low player count and 9 times out of 10 I'd say it's a result of gamers not being interested enough rather than some sort of bad advertising. 

 

There was a time when Sony would give lesser known indie titles that were actually quite good on ps plus but that didn't last very long and It ain't too far fetched to assume it's probably cause of the overall reception from gamers whenever those lineups were announced. Even now with mostly bigger games being given on plus people are still complaining so just imagine the outcry when your monthly lineup is something like downwell or bound ?.

 

I see the point you're making @DrBloodmoney and agree with most of it except for part about discoverability for the reasons I mentioned above. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by BrandedBerserk

[DrBloodmoney]

1 hour ago, BrandedBerserk said:

{snip}

 

I see the point you're making @DrBloodmoney and agree with most of it except for part about discoverability for the reasons I mentioned above. 

 

While I don't necessarily agree that store placement has quite as minimal impact as you imply - your point is well taken!

 

...we, as gamers, do share some of the responsibility - for the current situation, and for the safeguarding of the future health of the industry we love too!

 

I would never suggest people should feel beholden to spend money buying games, (or time playing games,) that aren't their personal cup of tea just to "support the industry at large" - that would be ridiculous -  however... I do think there are things people can do to help that have nothing to do with their finances or their gaming time.

 

People on a site like this one could do well to remember:  we are - however minimally, and to a limited extend - 'trend-setters' of a sort...

...in the sense that threads and posts from PSNP are quite often in the top 2 or 3 google results when googling certain games, (or at least on the first page.)

As such, the opinions expressed here do, I think, have some general impact (especially en-masse) on the less game-media-savvy audience, who might simply see a screenshot or hear a snippet about a game, and are googling for more info.

 

As such, the best thing we can do to safeguard the health of the indie scene, is not to make hyperbolic, negative statements about lesser aspects of indie games. See the good stuff as well as the jank. Accept that small devs with small games don't have the resources to polish their games to the level of a AAA game - but that doesn't mean they have no good ideas, or are devoid of talent, or that their game is some kind of cash-grab. 

Now, more than ever, when there really is an honest-to-goodness problem of over-saturation of the market by genuinely cynical and artless games... take the time to find the ones that aren't, and applaud them for it!

 

I think the best thing to do if you play a smaller game and like it.... Tell people!

 

Make a thread saying how good it was ☺️

Post a review showing the things you think people would like in it, along with the bad stuff you didn't like ☺️

Send a tweet about it, or recommend it to someone, or post a video of some gameplay you thought was cool! ☺️

 

Remember that, for some very small games, that single thread you start, called "This game is great!" or "Hidden Gem!" or "Check this out - you won't be disappointed!" could well be the first thing a new player googling the game will see - and that means you get to be the catalyst for them experiencing that good time also! ☺️

 

'Hot Takes' and 'Take-down-pieces' will always get more views here, of course (such is the nature of the internet,) but simply giving the same enthusiasm to the good aspects of games that we do to deriding the bad ones is something that can really help a smaller, more obscure game from a small developer, still struggling to have any real market impact.

 

We should never be afraid to publicly be nice!

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Saionji]

Hopefully this means more quality indie games like Journey or Deathspank instead of My name is Mayo 3 ?

[MidnightDragon]

As long as they're good, rather than Breakthrough or crap like that, that's fine by me.

[Elvick_]

I don’t even look at the PS Store at all now. Lol, them ditching a good webstore for the trash fire that it has become that only exists to support PS5 can suck it. And it’s even worse on the PS5 itself. The PS4 store looks like a magical unicorn who cures all and can grant you infinite wishes. I don’t know how you just keep getting worse. PS4 store sucked in beta on PS3, sucked on PS4 too. Go figure, now I don’t know wtf they’re trying to do with the store now. And ffs, I know I mentioned it already but why the hell is the webstore so fucking useless? 
 

Quote

And Logan, White, and Those Awesome Guys project manager Cristian Botea all say they had been invited to more sales recently. That said, both Logan and White add that it’s still frustrating to have to be invited to discount their games by Sony, rather than having the option themselves at any time like they can on other platforms. For example, Logan mentioned that Akupara recently held a 5th anniversary sale across several platforms, and while they “would have loved” to also discount their games on PlayStation, they were unable to do so.

When I first learned this I couldn’t believe it. It’s such a god awful way to do business. I thought that it was that Sony would ask if you wanted to partake in some themed sale, but otherwise you could do what you want with your games. Nope. Makes no fucking sense. 
 

maybe indies could do better if they could sell their PS3 games on a sale… but there’s no good way to buy them now thanks to the trash heap webstore only servicing PS5 (PS4 is just a byproduct, they don’t care about it). And maybe people would buy more PS3 games if PS5 had b/c with them… idk if it’s strong enough, but if the PS6 isn’t then wtf are you doing. I just want to play all my ps games on one system. How hard is that? PS3 could play PSone and PS2 what’s the excuse for 4 and 5? 
 

I digress. There’s a lot of things that end up playing into the indie issues and consumer issues. 
 

I used to browse the store every day, now I never bother and buy most games on PC (Steam mostly) now. GG Sony. Winning strategy, alienating everybody.

[AJ_Radio]

On 1/3/2022 at 8:16 PM, Elvick_ said:

When I first learned this I couldn’t believe it. It’s such a god awful way to do business. I thought that it was that Sony would ask if you wanted to partake in some themed sale, but otherwise you could do what you want with your games. Nope. Makes no fucking sense. 
 

maybe indies could do better if they could sell their PS3 games on a sale… but there’s no good way to buy them now thanks to the trash heap webstore only servicing PS5 (PS4 is just a byproduct, they don’t care about it). And maybe people would buy more PS3 games if PS5 had b/c with them… idk if it’s strong enough, but if the PS6 isn’t then wtf are you doing. I just want to play all my ps games on one system. How hard is that? PS3 could play PSone and PS2 what’s the excuse for 4 and 5? 
 

I digress. There’s a lot of things that end up playing into the indie issues and consumer issues. 
 

I used to browse the store every day, now I never bother and buy most games on PC (Steam mostly) now. GG Sony. Winning strategy, alienating everybody.

 

This is what I want as well. As much as I hate Microsoft now, their consoles allow actual backwards compatibility which means you can still play that old game from a decade ago that nobody cares about anymore. The PC is of course, the undisputed king when it comes to accessing and playing the classics. I despise Nintendo now because of them cashing in on peoples nostalgia on 1990s era video games that have a subscription fee attached to them. So basically, you're paying them money for games that you were already able to play on an emulator, at least you actually were able to until Nintendo started shutting down all of those big ROM websites. The expansion deal they have is a big scam. But hey, at least you can still play those old games.

 

Sony is unfortunately literally at rock bottom when it comes to providing any sort of backwards compatibility. You can play PS4 games on your PS5 console sure, but meh.

[EDGES]

when an indie game is not on PSN, the only ones losing financially are the indie devs, no PlaySttaion console has ever been sold because of an indie game, so I don't see what Sony has to repair, if anything, indie games should get on Sony's program faster

[DrBloodmoney]

23 minutes ago, RedTitan_RedKing said:

...no PlaySttaion console has ever been sold because of an indie game...

 

I personally know 2 different people who bought a PS5 specifically to play Returnal. I'm sure they will play/ have played other stuff too, but Returnal was certainly the primary selling point and the game that swayed it for them.

Edited January 5, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[EDGES]

Just now, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I personally know 2 different people who bought a PS5 specifically to play Returnal. I'm sure they will play/ have played other stuff too, but Returnal was certainly the primary selling point and the game that swayed it for them.

cool, let me know what indie games those two guys bought a PS5 for

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, RedTitan_RedKing said:

cool, let me know what indie games those two guys bought a PS5 for

 

Housemarque were only bought after Returnal was released. At the time of its development and release, Housemarque were an independent studio.

[EDGES]

25 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Housemarque were only bought after Returnal was released. At the time of its development and release, Housemarque were an independent studio.

an independent studio making a game OWNED, FUNDED, MARKETED and development assisted by a multi dozen billion $ company, the definition of an indie game

Edited January 5, 2022 by RedTitan_RedKing

[ShadeSplit]

They should. There are too many games that haven't been released on PlayStation. Touhou Luna Nights, Gato Roboto, Kunai, Vigil: The Longest Night, Roah, Cathedral... all games that are on the Switch, and some even on Xbox. And those are merely off the top of my head. There is obviously a problem when games aren't being released on the platform that sold the most.

[Nelson_]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:28 PM, HusKy said:

They seem to have good relationships with shovelware publishers at least.

 

On 12/14/2021 at 5:47 PM, OpenScars said:

Isn't PSN just FULL of indie games? Every sale is 99% indie rubbish amongst some decent ones.

 

Exactly my thoughts, i must be missing something as lot's of the steam indie shovelware on Sony ~_~;

Edited January 9, 2022 by Nelson_

[Nelson_]

On 12/15/2021 at 0:23 AM, DEI2EK said:

How about repairing their relationship with Japan and Japanese devs instead of bullying them into self censorship

 

Too much time passed already lol while most already moved on, i think Sony have run out of lies/excuses to even try ?

 

With the amount of shovelware this days Sony is more like "Hypocrisy has no limits"

Edited January 14, 2022 by Nelson_

[RadiantFlamberge]

On 12/15/2021 at 3:00 AM, AJ_Radio said:

The only stuff that really appeals to me is games like Elden Ring. Looking at Ubisoft, EA, and Activision, their library just feels meh.

Activision lately is all about Call of Duty, and little else. Only occasionally does a title in that series get my attention. I skipped Vanguard, because I'm burned out on WWII themes. I'd rather have something like Advanced or Infinite Warfare again, but I doubt we'll be seeing that. I'm surprised they actually released a Black Ops title lately. It's a shame that Sekiro (give all best regards to From Software) didn't have another publisher... Bandai Namco deserved Sekiro more.

EA's surely not the best, but they've been worse. Their saving grace at this time is the recent revival Mass Effect on current gen systems, and I'm considering their Jedi Fallen Order.

 

Bethesda's selling out to Microsoft can't be a good thing. Something bad will come of it sooner or later, I'm sure. Not having id Software's later releases on a PS system is one possible repercussion.

[Nelson_]

On 12/18/2021 at 0:39 AM, AJ_Radio said:

 

Indies are usually very niche, outside of popular games like Shovel Knight, Transistor, Cuphead and Hollow Knight, they generally only attract a select audience who has a specific interest in a particular genre.

 

Then of course there are the hidden gems that you may not find just casually browsing the store, especially now that the Sony storefront is absolute shit. I wouldn't even consider the influx of EZ games to be actual quality games, they better resemble shovelware which is just throwing something out there to make a quick buck. Shovelware has always existed in the gaming industry.

 

These days I find the quality indie games to either be buried under the carpet or a bit overpriced. Meanwhile the garbage we get every week gets several hundred active players playing it. Turns out that business model works, so the quality suffers. Most of what we're getting is shit.

 

Shovelware is like a pandemic, they all started on exactly same time as funny that may sound.

[AJ_Radio]

22 hours ago, RadiantFlamberge said:

Activision lately is all about Call of Duty, and little else. Only occasionally does a title in that series get my attention. I skipped Vanguard, because I'm burned out on WWII themes. I'd rather have something like Advanced or Infinite Warfare again, but I doubt we'll be seeing that. I'm surprised they actually released a Black Ops title lately. It's a shame that Sekiro (give all best regards to From Software) didn't have another publisher... Bandai Namco deserved Sekiro more.

EA's surely not the best, but they've been worse. Their saving grace at this time is the recent revival Mass Effect on current gen systems, and I'm considering their Jedi Fallen Order.

 

Bethesda's selling out to Microsoft can't be a good thing. Something bad will come of it sooner or later, I'm sure. Not having id Software's later releases on a PS system is one possible repercussion.

 

They published a lot of superhero stuff. Then most of it, including Deadpool and Transformers: Devastation, got pulled from the online store. Only way to buy them is by getting the physical disks. 

 

Guess they didn't sell all too well, hence why they're delisted.

 

1 hour ago, Nelson_ said:

 

Shovelware is like a pandemic, they all started on exactly same time as funny that may sound.

 

And people are defending a lot of shovelware, which continues to disgust me.

[Abby_TheLastofUs]

28 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

They published a lot of superhero stuff. Then most of it, including Deadpool and Transformers: Devastation, got pulled from the online store. Only way to buy them is by getting the physical disks. 

 

Guess they didn't sell all too well, hence why they're delisted.

 

No, that's not how delisting works.

 

Those games were delisted because of Activision's licenses for those franchises expiring. 

[AJ_Radio]

Just now, Abby_TheLastofUs said:

 

No, that's not how delisting works.

 

Those games were delisted because of Activision's licenses for those franchises expiring. 

 

They didn't bother to renew the licensing, so they had their reasons.