Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[TheBusToYoker]

Just now, TrophyChief said:

Already have bud. ? It’s  somewhere in this crap thread above. Let’s go back to playing games and having fun. 

 

My apologies then. I'm playing Streets Of Rage 4 at present.

[ARIXANDRE]

Brazilian trophy tracking site Mypst.com.br has different leaderboards for overall/rarity/difficulty. 

 

When I really care about that stuff , I usually check there. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by ARIXANDRE

[GUDGER666]

36 minutes ago, TrophyChief said:

This thread sucks ass. Sometimes I pray to God to take away my ability to read.

A feature i really want is to hide threads from recent posts. Also dark mode, I got severe eye strain from editing threads on here, had to go into Google Flags to force dark mode. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by GUDGER666

[TristanBrown17]

10 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

As long as they don't lose points themselves, people seem to be happy to have others taken away their points.

 

The lengths people go to justify the unfairness. Retroactively taking points away seems a good idea to some and will ruin the site on long terms. No right to blame the top ranks on the leaderboard, claiming they do this for personal gain, if its okay to give others a disadvantage that much late after shovelgames have been introduced in that quantity.

I don't think I went to any "length". I gave you the benefit of the doubt my friend. It's a little odd to call yourself a "top rank", but to each their own. 

[ViensDanser]

The rarity leaderboard is only a desire to show and reward a supposed ''skill"

But guys if you have so much skill go win esport tournaments instead of making trophies

 

If you really want to improve the system for the majority a new leaderboard should only reward the best games / triple A / best rated games / most loved games 

Edited October 22, 2022 by ViensDanser

[GUDGER666]

4 minutes ago, ViensDanser said:

The rarity leaderboard is only a desire to show and reward a supposed ''skill"

But guys if you have so much skill go win esport tournaments instead of making trophies

 

If you really want to improve the system for the majority a new leaderboard should only reward the best games / triple A / best rated games / most loved games 

Not really, a lot of games are time and effort. For instance MotoGP 09/10 Plat my rarest trophy at 0.74% is a 3/10 difficulty. 

[Thrillhelm]

9 minutes ago, TristanBrown17 said:

I don't think I went to any "length". I gave you the benefit of the doubt my friend. It's a little odd to call yourself a "top rank", but to each their own. 

In a leaderboard with how many entries, I guess at some point the top ranks begin.

 

Some mental gymnastics include that shovelware games barely have about a 1000 or so players tracked on this site, and top ranked players are blamed for playing lots of these games. In the end its all advocating something where someone else gets a disadvantage and not yourself.

[starcrunch061]

19 hours ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

"every trophy counts"

 

to this end, I don't think the "value" of any trophy should be arbitrarily removed

 

someone correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstand.. but in the stats section of your profile, u can see your average rarity (I'm assuming this is the mean rarity of all the trophies on your profile)

 

can't a rarity leaderboard be created around this already existing metric? there won't be any need to arbitrarily fabricate a formula to determine which trophies/games should count, or at what rarity they should be excluded

Well, since this is starting:

 

I’ve never liked this idea, because the average rarity stat is a bit of a mess. My personal dream is a rarity stat that is game-based, rather than trophy-based. Your own rarity should be based on the rarest trophy earned in that game.

 

As a hypothetical, let’s take a game where the there are 10 trophies, with rarities 100%, 90%, etc., down to 10%. If the rarest trophy you’ve earned in that game is the one at 50%, that game contributes 50% towards your trophy rarity. If another owner has the 10%, then he gets a contribution of 10%.

 

As it stands, average rarity will punish you for playing a game with a UR plat if most of the trophies are easier. In a game with 51 trophies, with 49 in the 60%-89% range, and one killer on at 1%, the average rarity of that game sits at a minimum of about 57%, which feels wrongheaded.

Edited October 22, 2022 by starcrunch061

[TristanBrown17]

1 minute ago, Thrillhelm said:

In a leaderboard with how many entries, I guess at some point the top ranks begin.

 

Some mental gymnastics include that shovelware games barely have about a 1000 or so players tracked on this site, and top ranked players are blamed for playing lots of these games. In the end its all advocating something where someone else gets a disadvantage and not yourself.

Lmao. Go touch some grass. It's a hobby we all do. They get blamed for playing the games because it boosts their numbers for a few bucks. 

[starcrunch061]

11 minutes ago, ViensDanser said:

 

If you really want to improve the system for the majority a new leaderboard should only reward the best games / triple A / best rated games / most loved games 

I’m opposed to this idea as well, if only because it severely punishes indies and hidden gems. I get your logic, but to reward people who play only the Metacritic top picks seems wrongheaded as well. I think games like Witcher 3 and The Last of Us 2 have enough backing - they don’t need leaderboards devoted to them.

[Thrillhelm]

4 minutes ago, TristanBrown17 said:

Lmao. Go touch some grass. It's a hobby we all do. They get blamed for playing the games because it boosts their numbers for a few bucks. 

Yeah its called a hobby when it fits your argument but its something worse if people in the top ranks do.

[TristanBrown17]

2 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Yeah its called a hobby when it fits your argument but its something worse if people in the top ranks do.

Trophy hunting is the hobby we all do. Playing shovelware is a miserable way to experience gaming in my opinion. Glad you enjoy spending your time that way though.

[ViensDanser]

 

6 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

I’m opposed to this idea as well, if only because it severely punishes indies and hidden gems. I get your logic, but to reward people who play only the Metacritic top picks seems wrongheaded as well. I think games like Witcher 3 and The Last of Us 2 have enough backing - they don’t need leaderboards devoted to them.

 

i completely agree

but if they create a new leaderboard on the rarity for a minority why the others could not have a leaderboard on the criteria that they consider legitimate ?

 

[starcrunch061]

Just now, ViensDanser said:

 

 

i completely agree

but if they create a new leaderboard on the rarity for a minority why the others could not have a leaderboard on the criteria that they consider legitimate ?

 

Yup. This is why I’ve never supported new leaderboards. I’m happy to debate their construction, but ultimately, it ends up exactly as you say: people just want a leaderboard with their own person and a few friends.

 

(Which honestly, might be an interesting idea. Personal, private, invite-only leaderboards for like-minded gamers and friendly competition).

[DrBloodmoney]

9 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

Yup. This is why I’ve never supported new leaderboards. I’m happy to debate their construction, but ultimately, it ends up exactly as you say: people just want a leaderboard with their own person and a few friends.

 

(Which honestly, might be an interesting idea. Personal, private, invite-only leaderboards for like-minded gamers and friendly competition).

 

 

This is kind of what TrueTrophies does, and it is smart... but the problem is, the more Leaderboards you have, the less any individual one means. 

 

 

Hey, did you know I'm currently the No.9 ranked Scottish gamer, when only ranking Silver trophies on Puzzle games on the PS4 console are counted?

 

 

 

 

What?

You didn't?

 

You mean you aren't personally acquainted with the "Scotland Only, Silver Only, Puzzle Game Only, PS4 Only" Leaderboard?

 

Damn... my achievements are for nothing! ?

 

?

Edited October 22, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[TheBusToYoker]

14 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

 

This is kind of what TrueTrophies does, and it is smart... but the problem is, the more Leaderboards you have, the less any individual one means. 

 

 

Hey, did you know I'm currently the No.9 ranked Scottish gamer, when only ranking Silver trophies on Puzzle games on the PS4 console are counted?

 

 

 

 

What?

You didn't?

 

You mean you aren't personally acquainted with the "Scotland Only, Silver Only, Puzzle Game Only, PS4 Only" Leaderboard?

 

Damn... my achievements are for nothing! ?

 

?

 

My flag is still set to England over there, and I've no idea how to change it ?

 

I was so bloody pissed off when I seen it ?

 

Anyway, excellent point about how too many leaderboards makes them irrelevant.

 

PSNP is still the best in the niche imo. While arguments can be made for the website lacking features, the core functionality of it is solid.

Edited October 22, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

My flag is still set to England over there, and I've no idea how to change it 

 

I was so bloody pissed off when I seen it 

 

Anyway, excellent point about how too many leaderboards makes them irrelevant.

 

PSNP is still the best in the niche imo. While arguments can be made for the website lacking features, the core functionality of it is solid.

Haha - oh no! Don’t change it… if you do, I might be knocked down to No.10! ?

[GunfighterHefty]

Don't understand it but don't really care what people do with their time and money. Most people think trophy hunting is dumb anyway...

 

However, hugely appreciative of removing the lists from the home page. Now I can actually stumble upon new indies easier! Thanks, people!

[Otonio_Bruno]

After reading 12 pages of this, a bunch of others page in MMDE's thread and many other threads about the current issue with the 'non-games' such as "Jumping Food" or "Stroke the Animal" and how it affects the leaderboards, I decided to voice my opinion on the subject (Beforehand was just giving thumbs up to posts I agreed to). It most definitely will be a big essay but here it goes:

 

At first I'd like to state something that I believe goes against what many said here or in other places: I care about the leaboards. I care about them a whole lot. It would be a lie for me to say I don't care about while still engaging in meaningful discussions on how the leaderboards should work or not. What I don't care too much these days is my current position in the leaderboards, most of time it's just a number for me nowdays, where in the past I actively sought to go up in the ranks even though I always was a very small fish in that competition. Why I don't care about my current position anymore will be explained further in.

 

To change or not change the current leaderboard and why?

 

The current leaderboard problem lies within the 'new' meta that has been established in the last 3 to 4 years, indie games, that regardless of their overall quality, provide easy trophies with very fast time completions and those games have flooded the playstation library. Of course that in a leaderboard that one with the more points ranks higher, people would go for any games that get lots of point a very short-time frame, that's the literal definition of meta gaming. Unfortunately, when you have so much of these games, it strictly limits the meta variance, as in, if you wish to keep up competitive you need to play those games or you will fall behind. And that is one of the reason I stopped caring about my leaderboard position, because I didn't care enough to follow the new meta.

 

I've been pokémon player ever since I was 9 years old and for a long time now I've also been in the competitive scene of the game. There is a unnoficial entity called Smogon that acts as a 'referee' in Pokémon competitive scene and widely regarded as the biggest authority on it. They set the rules, the game format, what can be done and what not and many players abide by their rules because they seem to be effective. And to keep the level field fair to everyone, they keep changing rules every so often as so to specific Pokémon teams or tactics don't limit the competitive meta into only few ways of playing that can make you win (i.e they want more variance in their meta). To achieve that they ban some Pokémon to other format/tiers, ban moves, ban strategy, all this done by peer reviews, the community decides if something should stay allowed or not in the rules. But how that applies to PSNP's leaderboards?

 

Well, I think that after almost 10 years now of the main leaderboard structure of counting points such as the Sony's trophy point system, it's a tad late to start changing the system to only count some points but not 'other' points. It seems unfair to the people who invested time in the main leaderboard meta to just have their points taken away because some developers started to exploit Sony's trophy point system in order to release non-games that awards trophies points for doing nothing, which would cater exactly to the people who wish to stay competitive in this leaderboard. In short, regarding the main leaderboard my opinion is: Keep as it is, the system have been here for a quite long time and to keep fairness it shouldn't be changed now.

 

What about a second, rarity-based, leaderboard?

 

That's something I've been wishing for years, not only because I'd would probably rank higher on that (Oh yeah, I'm selfish like everyone else is) but because it would open to the possibility of playing games that aren't 10 minute Platinum trophies and still be able to stay in the competition. Unfortunately this, as pointed out by many others, has been suggested so many times and I would love to see it someday but I don't have any hopes of it ever seeing daylight. The cutoff point for me could start from 50% or more, that can always be discussed, but the main point is that we do need a rarity leaderboard not only for a healthier competition but also for a healthier community.

 

 

[steel6burgh]

3 hours ago, ViensDanser said:

 

The rarity leaderboard is only a desire to show and reward a supposed ''skill"

 

so what is the current leaderboard do exactly?  Do you feel rewarding people with the top spots on the leaderboard for playing shovelware is justified?  If so why and how do you feel they are more deserving than someone who puts fohr time and displays actual skill?   

 

Also I think you often times confuse the reasoning behind a leaderboard built around rarity.  You think it's to play tough games and show off skill.  A rarity leaderboard has little to do with those things.  the main purpose behind creating a rarity leaderboard is really just to put the shovelware developers out of business and then people can play whatever they want hard or not.  Get back to playing real games.  Many of us advocating for a rarity leaderboard wouldn't rank any higher on it than we do on the current one so it would be hard to say we are biased.  People arguing against it on the other hand seem to almost all have tons of shovelware games on their list and according to this poll you are outvoted by a margin of 3 to 1.  that's a pretty high margin of defeat people who think shovelware is worthless and should hold 0 point value are a 3 to 1 majority.  

 

It's just a matter of time until Sony stops it anyway.

Edited October 22, 2022 by steel6burgh

[TheBusToYoker]

I appreciate your "essay" @Otonio_Bruno, and I hope the staff do to when they so read it. Very valuable thoughts on the subject.

[ViensDanser]

52 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

so what is the current leaderboard do exactly?  Do you feel rewarding people with the top spots on the leaderboard for playing shovelware is justified?  If so why and how do you feel they are more deserving than someone who puts fohr time and displays actual skill?   

 

Also I think you often times confuse the reasoning behind a leaderboard built around rarity.  You think it's to play tough games and show off skill.  A rarity leaderboard has little to do with those things.  the main purpose behind creating a rarity leaderboard is really just to put the shovelware developers out of business and then people can play whatever they want hard or not.  Get back to playing real games.  Many of us advocating for a rarity leaderboard wouldn't rank any higher on it than we do on the current one so it would be hard to say we are biased.  People arguing against it on the other hand seem to almost all have tons of shovelware games on their list and according to this poll you are outvoted by a margin of 3 to 1.  that's a pretty high margin of defeat people who think shovelware is worthless and should hold 0 point value are a 3 to 1 majority.  

 

It's just a matter of time until Sony stops it anyway.

The current leaderboard is based on the sony system that's all. 

You re rigth.

But why add only rarity leaderboard ?

Add one for indie 

For triple a 

For games over 100h plat

For hardest games

For anything

Even one for those who don't care it will be the most played?

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by ViensDanser

[Property_Damage]

Just price them all at $59.99 with no free stacks and itll balance out

[Ashande]

1 minute ago, Property_Damage said:

Just price them all at $59.99 with no free stacks and itll balance out

 

I have to admit to a certain curiosity; would people still flock to these things if they were more expensive? I suspect the answer would probably be “yes.” Given that the price for “trophy trash” has steadily crept up from <$1 to $6.99 in some cases, I imagine they could continue to nudge that price up a dollar at a time until you’re paying the same price you’d pay for whatever AAA title is popular for the moment, and there would still be people slurping them up.

 

I’d love for the experiment to be made, though, so we can get a definitive answer. 

[steel6burgh]

3 minutes ago, ViensDanser said:

The current leaderboard is based on the sony system that's all. 

You re rigth.

But why add only rarity leaderboard ?

Add one for indie 

For triple a 

For games over 100h plat

For hardest games

For anything

Even one for those who don't care it will be the most played

Hey i'm fine adding anything other that having the reward be for playing thousands of shovelware games.  At this point any change in the structure of the leaderboard would be welcome but more than leaderboards I worry about what Sony may end up doing one day to counter these shovelware developers from their store.  Are they allowed to refuse to sell them by law?  Or is the only way they will one day be able to get these spammers to stop is to eliminate the trophy system?  I don't know the answer Sony may not want to get rid of them.  Sony may despise them.  Sony may have to sell their content or they may be able to kick them off their storefront no questions asked.   I feel though not knowing the answer we could be in jeopardy of loosing the trophy system if Sony decides these games are poor for their image, which they are, and Sony has no justification legally not to provide space for their content on their store.