Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[jaehyun1009]

I have no problem with a rarity leaderboard as an additional feature. The main leaderboard is not going anywhere, after all.

[maisie666]

11 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

"every trophy counts"

 

to this end, I don't think the "value" of any trophy should be arbitrarily removed

 

someone correct me if I'm wrong or misunderstand.. but in the stats section of your profile, u can see your average rarity (I'm assuming this is the mean rarity of all the trophies on your profile)

 

can't a rarity leaderboard be created around this already existing metric? there won't be any need to arbitrarily fabricate a formula to determine which trophies/games should count, or at what rarity they should be excluded

Thats my biggest issue with most of the Rarity leaderboard proposals.  They lead to outcomes like the current DLC rarities.  A fabricated 'solution' that is nonsense.  

 

Heres my proposal for a Rarity Leaderboard separate from the Main Leaderboard. 2 easy steps

 

1. Fix DLC rarities, until this is done a rarity leaderboard wont mean much.

2. Exclude all games on the Shovelware list.  

 

No % cutoffs. No weighting for UR. No incentives for anyone to play anything hard or easy that they wouldn t play anyway.  

 

 

[DeepEyes7]

2 minutes ago, maisie666 said:

 

1. Fix DLC rarities, until this is done a rarity leaderboard wont mean much.

 

 

How if you don't know the real number of people that played a DLC? Using the total number of players of the game is not true, and using the number of players that at least achieved one trophy is not true either for lists with too difficult trophies or just one trophy...

 

4 minutes ago, maisie666 said:

 

No % cutoffs. No weighting for UR. No incentives for anyone to play anything hard or easy that they wouldn t play anyway.  

 

 

How is that a rarity LB? That is just normal LB without ezpz

[MonaSaxPayne]

6 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

Yes, but usually are the players that play ezpz the ones that are more against the rarity LB, the main LB wont be deleted or touched but still a LB that doesnt cater for their taste is an horrendous thing to do as we can see in all the threads about this topic... So, as I wrote some posts before.. Who is the selfish one?

 

for what it's worth, I'm always skewed towards inclusion rather than exclusion

 

the existing leaderboard ranks points. nothing else. I'm all for having additional leaderboards. I'd personally like a completionist leaderboard. I don't think there's anything wrong with also having a rarity leaderboard. but please.. fix the dlc rarity formula first

[MD_91]

39 minutes ago, TrophyChief said:

Where the fuck is this going? It feels like this is a crusade to tear the community apart. Embrace all games, all players, and all approaches to trophy hunting. Focus on your own enjoyment of the hobby we all love. This sucks

 

Pretty sure the community is already torn apart based on the amount of times this topic comes up and then the same arguments that take place every time, at least a separate leaderboard would help towards the embracing of all approaches to trophy hunting

[ZZ383]

I think we should get rid of the leaderboards.   Keep the guides, keep the forums, they have value to me. The leaderboards, I see my rank and I go, "it went up/it went down. whatever."  I'm not here to compare how many trophies I have earned. What do you gain knowing you earned more than someone else, instead of knowing you helped others earn more for themselves?

 

Show a man how many trophies he has against you, make an enemy. But teach a man how to earn a trophy, and you make a friend. 

 

If you want to start your own leaderboard where Dark Souls trophies don't count, you do that. You can even go so far as to start one where the only person on it is you, and then, wow, look at that, you did it, you won the leaderboard game. 

 

 

[ShadeSplit]

4 hours ago, Floorkiller74 said:

Too bad that (TT) site never cared enough to give itself a chance. 

 

Everyone keeps saying this, but what does it actually mean? I use True Trophies, and I see the administration team doing much more for the site than anything here. It actually has features such as a dark mode, or different leaderboard functions. So I've seen nothing to suggest the administration on this site "cares" anymore for it than on True Trophies. If I'm missing something, I would be interested in hearing what it is.

 

Anyway, "shovelware" is a poor term for the games in question here. It's true, the vast majority, if not all of them, are shovelware. However, there's nothing stopping a shovelware game from having difficult to earn trophies. Some people think the Attacking Zegeta games are interesting because of people not being able to earn trophies, but that doesn't exclude them from being shovelware. Then you have some "Rata" published games that certainly aren't shovelware, but were ruined by them trying to take advantage of trophy hunters. So there should be a more appropriate term.

[maisie666]

16 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

How if you don't know the real number of people that played a DLC? Using the total number of players of the game is not true, and using the number of players that at least achieved one trophy is not true either for lists with too difficult trophies or just one trophy...

 

 

How is that a rarity LB? That is just normal LB without ezpz

Sure, total players.  Better than the formula we have now.  

 

How is it a rarity LB?  Well, i thought the whole point of this thread was that shovelware was factored into the leaderboard.  People buying and playing games they wouldnt play normally to increase their 'stature' on the leaderboard.  Swapping Jumping Halloween burger turbo for Secret Ponchos stacks doesnt seem much different to me.  

[farradono]

Just wanted to say, the Rarity Leaderboard of TrophyLeaders, uses a system where it uses the “fixed” DLC rarities, and it has monstrosities like the Marvel vs Capcom 3 platinum (the one on ps4, where you need to do 480 combos, not 320) being worth less than a 1/6 of a simple storyline bronze in Kingdoms of Amalur’s  Fatesworn DLC, and it’s not like the DLC just came out, so it’s not “the markets  didn’t have enough time to self-regulate”, the DLC came out almost a year ago, there’s not enough people that will pursue this phantomatic UR race  and make the rarity of DLCs more “respectable” in time.
 

Don’t  assume that what Sly did now (well, back then), and what you propose, are the only choices, the site before had the  DLCs actually marked with their actual rarity  (as in, the limited tools Sony gives you to check DLCs beyond the paywall), with  some having a 100% rarity. For every person lamenting that pursuing the platinum of UMVC3 would be a waste of time, and buying trash/overpriced  DLCs  would be a much better move in a rarity Leaderboard of all things (hmm, seems familiar), there’s one that lamented a DLC having a 100% trophy.

Sly’s formula isn’t a compromise  he made with the “Capcom”  camp, it’s a compromise he made with BOTH camps, as for me, when people say “fix the DLCs rarities” means going back  to 100% rarities,  not making URs a second round of Jumping Pizza.

[DeepEyes7]

4 minutes ago, maisie666 said:

Sure, total players.  Better than the formula we have now.  

 

So, you want to decrease the rarity even more? I think that most people here wants the opposite...

 

5 minutes ago, maisie666 said:

How is it a rarity LB?  Well, i thought the whole point of this thread was that shovelware was factored into the leaderboard.  People buying and playing games they wouldnt play normally to increase their 'stature' on the leaderboard.  Swapping Jumping Halloween burger turbo for Secret Ponchos stacks doesnt seem much different to me.  

 

Yes, because the point of this thread wasn't a rarity LB, still, you can't do a rarity LB if you don't use the rarity in any point of it.... You are doing just something else....

[Vivamp]

Personally I'd agree that a leaderboard "without shovelware" would be a good option, as far as deciding what is and isn't shovelware, well I think everyone can make the distinction between games trivialising the platinum by choice (eg visual novels, generally a many hour time investment unless you CHOOSE to skip through every scene), generally games that offer some sense of goal (like experiencing the story) separate to the trophies with the trophies being a nice bonus.

And the (shovelware) games that hand you the plat by design with no reward or decent user experience on offer

 

Of course in the grand scheme there can never be a perfect answer (hypothetically) and don't take this comment too seriously, but hypothetically the next Star Ocean game could have 1000 hours of content but the trophies only relate to tasks set in a tutorial leading to a 5 minute plat, what happens then

Edited October 21, 2022 by Vivamp

[Mina]

10 hours ago, MoneyShotxox said:

So we should then also give ps4-ps5 auto pops zero points and visual novels where clearly people do them only for trophies.

I’ve seen this comment posted quite often. I’m starting to think I’m the only one who actually reads these novels ? 

 

On topic - I don’t think we should have them sit at zero. The effort is extremely minimal but it’s still worth something to someone. Maybe they can be worth 1 point a trophy or something? 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Mina

[Vivamp]

3 minutes ago, Mina said:

I’ve seen this comment posted quite often. I’m starting to think I’m the only one who actually reads these novels  

On topic - I don’t think we should have them sit at zero. The effort is extremely minimal but it’s still worth something to someone. Maybe they can be worth 1 point a trophy or something? 

Aha It certainly feels that way sometimes but there's a few of us at least, I've noticed a lot of the guide writers experience them at least, after all step one is ofc _just enjoy the game and clean up afterwards_

 

Though your 1 point idea got me thinking, a scoring system where the different trophies are worth the inverse of their rarity percentage (not sure I worded that right) so eg. Let's just say a silver at base gives 50 points, and you earn one with 20% rarity, you get 80% of its value, so 40 points into your scoreboard position

This would mean even the shovelware trophies still get some value, but are _heavily_ reduced in worth automatically without much work manual work, as using that formula that 50 point silver with a 95% rarity is now only worth 2.5 points

 

 

 

[Darling Baphomet]

2 hours ago, maisie666 said:

No % cutoffs. No weighting for UR. No incentives for anyone to play anything hard or easy that they wouldn t play anyway.  

 

Then you're not fixing the shovelware problem, you're just moving the line further back a little. Instead of 10 minute platinums, you're now forced to go for 1 hour platinums. But that really isn't that significant a change when actual high effort platinums take 20-100 hours to earn.

[Bloke]

It took me under 2 hours to beat Demon's Souls, is that now counted as shovelware as it's not deemed long enough to complete?

[Dauersack]

3 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

Just because I am having a different opinion doesn't mean its open season. People could work on their own profile rather than stat-shaming others, for a start. 

Your understanding of what a public forum is seems bad at best. This is actually what it means, every single opinion you put out in a forum is open season to get challenged within the boundaries of the forums rules, and the rules, at least the way they are enforced here, do not prohibit calling out the state of someones profile as an increase or decrease of credibility for the opinion shared by someone. If you do not want your opinion to get challenged, you should not post it in a public forum, or at least not in one that is not an echo chamber for the opinion you have, simple as that.

 

1 hour ago, Mina said:

On topic - I don’t think we should have them sit at zero. The effort is extremely minimal but it’s still worth something to someone. Maybe they can be worth 1 point a trophy or something? 

I fail to see how people who auto pop deserve even a single point for that list given that they put in even less effort for it than someone who played a jumping food game. Making them count for 1 instead of 0 is something that is almost guaranteed to make both parties unhappy instead of just one of them, though people have been asking for different values for the same type of trophy for years in some way.

 

44 minutes ago, TriadThunder-X said:

It took me under 2 hours to beat Demon's Souls, is that now counted as shovelware as it's not deemed long enough to complete?

It is not only the finishing times for the platinum that get games labeled as shovelware, and I bet you are well aware of that and just want to take the piss a bit. Even if it was solely measured on completion time, it would not be the finishing times of speedrunners, cheaters, exploiters or boosting profiteers, whichever one of them you may be in this case, that would be used as a reference, just like they are not using by reviews or guides to give potential buyers an estimated play time.

[djb5f]

11 hours ago, ThatDrunkGuy said:

If I can hold a cold beer in one hand, and get a platinum with the other before finishing said beer...it's shovelware. 

I gave an upvote for the chuckle.

 

But this also includes Autopops which I’d be fine with.

[EqualityEarth]

3 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

There's a fair number of 70-80 percent games which are legit and don't deserve to be delisted, imo. So I would propose moving it a step further to 80. And beyond that having rarity points to render easy games less efficient than they are now.

I too have been challenged to specify any common completion games that shouldn’t be nullified. As a fan of hidden object puzzle games, Artifex Mundi on PS4 is an easy find (Alawar has such games on PS3, but with lower rates). 80-90%+ completion, but really ought not to be on the chopping block. There have to be more counterexamples (or “false positives”) than that though. The completion rate cutoff principle sounds right on paper just not in practice.

[Darling Baphomet]

25 minutes ago, Dauersack said:

I fail to see how people who auto pop deserve even a single point for that list given that they put in even less effort for it than someone who played a jumping food game.

 

Yeah, autopops are particularly grating because the influx of people who platinumed a PS4 game installing the PS5 version just to autopop fucks up a bunch of PS5 games' rarities and fastest times.

[CelestialRequiem]

5 hours ago, TrophyChief said:

Where the fuck is this going? It feels like this is a crusade to tear the community apart. Embrace all games, all players, and all approaches to trophy hunting. Focus on your own enjoyment of the hobby we all love. This sucks

Fucking can't stop laughing at this comment. 

[ThatDrunkGuy]

1 hour ago, djb5f said:

I gave an upvote for the chuckle.

 

But this also includes Autopops which I’d be fine with.

Hahaha...cheers! I saw the arguments starting to mount and thought everyone could use a chuckle.

 

I'm someone who doesn't care about leaderboards, so whatever people decide is cool with me. My policy on games is if I own it, I'll play it for trophies. So this includes auto-pops or trash games through plus. Good example is Rainbow Six, I put in enough work for two plats so hell yeah I'll take it! ? If these pay for plat games end up being free on plus, I'll pop beers and plats along with everyone else. I will just never buy them directly, because there is no point to them for me. I am a little worried that people are feeling pressure to 'keep up with the joneses' though, so maybe something should be done.

 

However, if nothing is done...I have a game idea. If a dev likes it, contact me...I only ask for 5 percent of the profit. The game is called The Trophy Hoe. This is where you press x to have virtual hands holding a virtual hoe drag trophies in the dirt towards the screen. The trophies would have cool titles like "This is hard work, I need a cold beer!"

Edited October 22, 2022 by ThatDrunkGuy

[Bloke]

4 minutes ago, ThatDrunkGuy said:

Hahaha...cheers! I saw the arguments starting to mount and thought everyone could use a chuckle.

 

I'm someone who doesn't care about leaderboards, so whatever people decide is cool with me. My policy on games is if I own it, I'll play it for trophies. So this includes auto-pops or trash games through plus. Good example is Rainbow Six, I put in enough work for two plats so hell yeah I'll take it!  If these pay for plat games end up being free on plus, I'll pop beers and plats along with everyone else. I will just never buy them directly, because there is no point to them for me. I am a little worried that people are feeling pressure to 'keep up with the joneses' though, so maybe something should be done.

 

However, if nothing is done...I have a game idea. If a dev likes it, contact me...I only ask for 5 percent of the profit. The game is called The Trophy Hoe. This is where you press x to have virtual hands holding a virtual hoe drag trophies in the dirt towards the screen. The trophies would have cool titles like "This is hard work, I need a cold beer!"

I never knew you were a man of cultivation and horticulture, such a green thumb about you. I second this idea and believe there should be multiple region stacks on multiple platforms, of course.

 

As for multi platform game such as Spiderman or Maneater, if you paid for the game, who cares if you auto pop or not, the provision is there to be used.

[AJ_Radio]

11 hours ago, Sunnyburrito said:

Orc Slayer was a game at least, a bad one but a game, Little Adventure felt like an unfinished teenager school project......damn the original trash <almost> feels nostalgic.

You share the same birth year as me and I feel the same. 
 

Stuff like The Bunker, Deponia and The Little Acre are all gaming masterpieces compared with the crap we get now.

[ARIXANDRE]

The funny bit is that, for Sony Playstation,  the platinum points for a Crypt of the Necrodancer are the same to a Stroke The Snake. ?

 

Leaderboards are really only a thing in non-Sony sites. 

 

Best not to think too much about it. 

Edited October 22, 2022 by ARIXANDRE

[Thrillhelm]

6 hours ago, Dauersack said:

Your understanding of what a public forum is seems bad at best. This is actually what it means, every single opinion you put out in a forum is open season to get challenged within the boundaries of the forums rules, and the rules, at least the way they are enforced here, do not prohibit calling out the state of someones profile as an increase or decrease of credibility for the opinion shared by someone. If you do not want your opinion to get challenged, you should not post it in a public forum, or at least not in one that is not an echo chamber for the opinion you have, simple as that.

Insults are not an opinion, but nice try framing it as echo chambering when I remember times where forum rules were actually enforced, now people jump straight to personal level.