Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[VigilantCrow]

Just now, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

I'm pretty confident most kids think jumping food games are trash, and question if they are actually are games.

All it takes is a fraction of a fraction and you have an audience for your game.

We must have games that pander to all skill levels after all. 

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, VigilantCrow said:

Is there though? At what point does accessibility become shovelware? 

 

I honestly hope you're just pulling my leg and not actually being serious about this.

[Burritoprime]

32 minutes ago, ahmedelebiary said:

Don't take away my Mayo points, please ?

 

Neither my Little Adventure on the Prairie

 

Damn it all feels so long ago when I bought that "game" I had no idea that easy platinums were a market, it was an honest mistake (?)

[VigilantCrow]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

 

I honestly hope you're just pulling my leg and not actually being serious about this.

Little bit of both to be honest. I'm simply bringing the logical conclusion to the very real problem we've been seeing over the last 20 years with gaming accessibility. You enjoy your rants, I enjoy mockery. 

[starcrunch061]

4 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

The thing is, Sony decides the trophy values, and unless Sony makes the changes, any change on PSNP that is pushed for is a deviation that refelects the mindset of those who want exactly that change. It is that mindset behind that that rubs me the wrong way.

 

So, do you also oppose the leaderboard disallowing trophies earned by loading save files? Sony certainly doesn't care.

 

The fact is, Sony is allowed to define trophy points, and this site is allowed to make decisions for its own leaderboard.

[ahmedelebiary]

Just now, Sunnyburrito said:

 

Neither my Little Adventure on the Prairie

 

Damn it all feels so long ago when I bought that "game" I had no idea that easy platinums were a market, it was an honest mistake (?)

Gosh, I heard that game is terrible.. on par with Orc Slayer ? Have played neither just judging by reviews. However, can't best the worst game I've ever played, AKA Whitetail Challenge (PS3) 

[AJ_Radio]

Just now, VigilantCrow said:

Little bit of both to be honest. I'm simply bringing the logical conclusion to the very real problem we've been seeing over the last 20 years with gaming accessibility. You enjoy your rants, I enjoy mockery. 

 

That's longer than some of these people here have been alive.

[Beyondthegrave07]

Guys, let's chill a bit. The normal leaderboard is not going to change. If anything, there will be a new leaderboard made where they would be worthless so please don't worry about the site becoming elitist or worry about your jars of mayo. 

 

I think a better discussion here would be if you wanted the rarity leaderboard to include these at all or where the cutoff would be for that specifically.  I'd get out of the mindset that shovelware will be removed from the normal boards.

 

 

[Rally-Vincent---]

Just now, starcrunch061 said:

 

So, do you also oppose the leaderboard disallowing trophies earned by loading save files? Sony certainly doesn't care.

 

The fact is, Sony is allowed to define trophy points, and this site is allowed to make decisions for its own leaderboard.

 

I don't care about any leaderboard. What I care about is the mindset of the userbase of this site, because the userbase is the deciding factor on how I use this site now and in future. I would be very happy if this site did not have a leaderboard and be more like giant databse for games, but I know that's not going to happen. So at least I speak up when I find certain things unpleasent. Again, I am in the minority, but it's still a message board, even if people boo one off the stage quickly.

[TheBusToYoker]

6 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

All it takes is a fraction of a fraction and you have an audience for your game.

We must have games that pander to all skill levels after all. 

 

So in opposing shovelware we are now literally saving the children. A higher moral ground has been found to eliminate them.

[jts5009]

2 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

So, do you also oppose the leaderboard disallowing trophies earned by loading save files? Sony certainly doesn't care.

 

The fact is, Sony is allowed to define trophy points, and this site is allowed to make decisions for its own leaderboard.

This is a good point. This leaderboard is better than an "official" Sony leaderboard because hacked/cheated trophies are excluded, so it's not like we're looking at raw data here anyway. Why not further improve things by removing the shovelware titles from the score?

[starcrunch061]

3 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

I don't care about any leaderboard.

 

Then why post in the thread? This entire thread is about psnp's leaderboard. 

 

3 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

So at least I speak up when I find certain things unpleasent. 

 

No one denies you that right. But your recent posts seem to be more, "Everyone here is a jerk but me!" 

 

Reasonable minds can disagree on the value of trophies, leaderboards, etc. That doesn't mean they cease to be reasonable.

Edited October 21, 2022 by starcrunch061

[VigilantCrow]

2 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

So in opposing shovelware we are now literally saving the children. A higher moral ground has been found to eliminate them.

Glad my mockery has given you more ammo. May it be enough to tip the scale against shovelware. 

[TheBusToYoker]

6 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

Guys, let's chill a bit. The normal leaderboard is not going to change. If anything, there will be a new leaderboard made where they would be worthless so please don't worry about the site becoming elitist or worry about your jars of mayo. 

 

I think a better discussion here would be if you wanted the rarity leaderboard to include these at all or where the cutoff would be for that specifically.  I'd get out of the mindset that shovelware will be removed from the normal boards.

 

 

 

Poll updated with follow on question.

[Elegy]

1 hour ago, Sergen said:

Yeah I think for the most part it's not even about leaderboard ranking for the people, it is about stopping this predatory money making method from being done because these shovelware developers are making quick cash from the trophy addiction. Sly has been approached by shovelware developers for collaborations asking to promote their games to generate more sales and that's why this whole debate is a thing... Limiting the points for shovelware or removing them completely will limit the sales of the shovelware and could help to restore some integrity to the leaderboards. At the end of the day I don't care how other people hunt trophies, it's Sony who can't differentiate shovelware from actual games that took effort to develop and their tactics are destroying the indie market for PSN because a flood of these trash looking games is stacked on top of games that an indie developer put thousands of hours of effort into making. If there was a separate section on the PSN store for this kind of garbage while keeping clean indie games in another section maybe it wouldn't be too severe to have shovelware be a part of the website. I also feel like people just like to get a dopamine hit from shovelware trophy spamming regardless of their leaderboard position so there's probably always gonna be money to make from the shovelware, but removing points from counting on the leaderboard would at least remove the incentive for the top trophy hunters to buy and promote it. As far as people "moving to another leaderboard website", PSNP is the market leader in this field and the other trophy websites have never stepped their game up with features to incentivize switching from PSNP to another trophy website. 

 

I largely agree.

 

I do think that lessening the incentives to buy "press x for trophies" games on leaderboard sites such as this would lessen the amount of people supporting this nonsense.  I think trophies should track achievements earned in gaming and the focus should be kept on gaming.  These "shovelware" games are literally just selling trophies and rewarding you for purchasing the game.  There is no real gaming going on.

I don't really think there is much debate about it being a slippery slope either, because it isn't that hard to look at the statistics to see plats under 5 minutes, 90+% completion rate and low effort thumbnails/game names.  Most of the people arguing its a slippery slope or trying to over complicate the issue have profiles with mountains of these games and 1000+ plats.  I, personally, don't think it is elitist to have some standards.  Leaderboards are inherently competitive and you have to have some rules/regulations and standards around things or it just becomes a race to the bottom.  Sports and competition in real life have rules/regulations and you aren't allowed to cheat or use enhancing drugs and that sort of thing, precisely, because it lowers the bar too much.  Objectively, trophy hunting as a competition for leaderboards has never been more absurd, pointless and rewarding for the wrong things than it is right now.  I don't even bother looking at profiles anymore if I see these shovelware games on them.  People are allowed to spend their money and time however they please, but there is no requirement for leaderboard sites to reward them for it or for the community to respect it.

I don't really care about my leaderboard position as it will not affect the games I choose to play and complete in any way whatsoever, but it is pretty obvious that a lot of people in the community are feeling disenfranchised with trophy hunting because there are no standards anymore.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Elegy

[Rally-Vincent---]

6 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

Then why post in the thread? This entire thread is about psnp's leaderboard.

 

I told you. I care about the attitude behind this because it affects the atmosphere in this forum, alone because every third day, the discusiion starts anew in one of the endless "new" threads about this.

 

7 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

No one denies you that right. But your recent posts seem to be more, "Everyone here is a jerk but me!" 

 

Reasonable minds can disagree on the value of trophies, leaderboards, etc. That doesn't mean they cease to be reasonable.

 

I adjusted to the gereal tone of the shovelware discussion. My fault, but I am not alone in this.

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, Elegy said:

I largely agree.

 

I do think that lessening the incentives to buy "press x for trophies" games on leaderboard sites such as this would lessen the amount of people supporting this nonsense.  I think trophies should track achievements earned in gaming and the focus should be kept on gaming.  These "shovelware" games are literally just selling trophies and rewarding you for purchasing the game.  There is no real gaming going on.

I don't really think there is much debate about it being a slippery slope either, because it isn't that hard to look at the statistics to see plats under 5 minutes, 90+% completion rate and low effort thumbnails/game names.  Most of the people arguing its a slippery slope or trying to over complicate the issue have profiles with mountains of these games and 1000+ plats.  I, personally, don't think it is elitist to have some standards.  Leaderboards are inherently competitive and you have to have some rules/regulations and standards around things or it just becomes a race to the bottom.  Sports and competition in real life have rules/regulations and you aren't allowed to cheat or use enhancing drugs and that sort of thing precisely because it lowers the bar too much.  Objectively, trophy hunting as a competition for leaderboards has never been more absurd, pointless and rewarding for the wrong things than it is right now.  I don't even bother looking at profiles anymore if I see these shovelware games on them.  People are allowed to spend their money and time however they please, but there is no requirement for leaderboard sites to reward them for it or for the community to respect it.

I don't really care about my leaderboard position as it will not affect the games I choose to play and complete in any way whatsoever, but it is pretty obvious that a lot of people in the community are feeling disenfranchised with trophy hunting because there are no standards anymore.

 

Agree 100%. It's difficult to see this rationally at this point because many of us are disenfranchised.

[Thrillhelm]

Transformation to UR leaderboard discussion complete. With the debate if shovelware should be worth 0 points being silently put under the rug there's a poll where to set the cut now, like shovelware was the sedgway, lets devalue more games now. A cut at 20 percent rarity, even at 30 and 40 (as the poll offers to vote for that) devalues games that are actually good and enjoyable, while it still leaves room for manipulation (someone with multiple accounts can raise or lower the percentage), games that are far away from EZPZ territory.

 

And it changes nothing - whoever invests more money and makes better choices at picking the game will have an edge. Except now it needs less games for more money. People with a PSVR will love that leaderboard.

[sepheroithisgod]

It's not letting me vote for the new polls added for some reason so I'll post them here.

2. Alternatives: I Voted Yes But Prefer Alt - Rarity Leaderboard
3. Want A Rarity Leaderboard, Cut Off Percentage....: 60% (pretty much anything is better than what we have today)

 

 

[WaddysWDS]

In fact, for a rarity ranking, I would even add one more category... from 0.1 to 1.0% I would call them Hyper Rare.

[Dauersack]

I would be all for them no longer counting, mainly because the thought of people spending thousands of dollars and many hours of their lifes doing something they despise just for some undeserved points, only to then lose these points, is hilarious to me, and even more hilarious is the thought of these so called "developers" losing a lot of their customer base. Hell you could even argue that the junkies get a real reason to stop this behavior so they can go back to playing games that are somewhat fun, but I will not pretend to care about these people, I am already happy enough with the ability to filter out the worthless garbage software from this site.

 

Getting some credibility back to the leaderboard, either by not counting the garbage anymore or seperating the leaderboard into several categories is a good thing, not something I personally care about given that I do not actively compete but something I would still want for others who do. It also used to be somewhat fun to go through some of the top players and just be impressed by what they have accomplished with their accounts, nowadays its more like looking at a smelly garbage dump nobody wants to stay around long enough to dig out something impressive from. Finding players whos profiles are a joy to look at has become a bit more difficult, but there are still plenty on this site.

 

1 hour ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

What I dislike is the pretense that all of this is about "the greater good" when in reality it's just for selfish reasons.

What a bad and inverted take. What exactly is the "selfish reason" for someone like me who does not give a crap about his leaderboard rank? I wouldn't notice if I suddenly gained or lost 1000 ranks, I am deep down in the tens of thousands anyway, so I objectively have nothing to gain from new leaderboards, or all the garbage no longer counting, yet I am in favor of it anyway to restore some shred of credibility to the whole thing, I'd say most people who are in favor of this aren't doing it for the increase in rank given that they'd still be nowhere near the top.

The people who have invested hundreds, sometimes thousands, and a lot of time into their garbage piles however, they have selfish reasons to keep bashing on any possible changes to the leaderboard, you can smell the desperation from some of them, they want the turd to keep flowing up instead of drowning.

 

 

As for the new poll option I can't vote on. A rarity leaderboard would be fine, I'd be for 60% as the cut off point. This may not be radical enough to get rid of the shovelware spam entirely, but at least it does not run the risk of excluding people who play many casual games given that some easy, casual games are around that mark.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Dauersack

[Burritoprime]

27 minutes ago, ahmedelebiary said:

Gosh, I heard that game is terrible.. on par with Orc Slayer ? Have played neither just judging by reviews. However, can't best the worst game I've ever played, AKA Whitetail Challenge (PS3) 

Orc Slayer was a game at least, a bad one but a game, Little Adventure felt like an unfinished teenager school project......damn the original trash <almost> feels nostalgic.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Sunnyburrito

[TheBusToYoker]

Look I'm not super active on this forum, but you won't get anything done if people don't start respecting each others points of view on the subject, and start adding vaule to proceedings that Sly can work from.

 

No website dev who runs a community service is going to make any meaningful changes ultil they are confident they will be broadly accepted by the community.

 

Until then a good dev stays publicly silent because to start the conversation themselves risks people thinking something is wrong with the website, or they are indeed going to 100% be carrying a significant change. You have to protect your product and service.

 

Thus, because of that, and until such time when discussion becomes meaningful as to warrant becoming anything material; the website is flawless, perfect.

 

 

 

[Zandatsu_Patriot]

Yes. Just yes.

[disaster500]

3 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

And it changes nothing - whoever invests more money and makes better choices at picking the game will have an edge. Except now it needs less games for more money. People with a PSVR will love that leaderboard.

You'd have your exceptions that are too rare like old PS Plus games and VR games, but there are far less of those than the thousands of shovelware games with >95% platinum rarity. And as people seek out those games for easy points, they become more common and therefore worth less points.