Xbox Is Cracking Down On Easy Achievements

[DrBloodmoney]

14 hours ago, B1rvine said:

Sony needs to grow a pair and not only remove all this garbage from the store... but also remove the trophy history from PSN and all accounts.

 

A minis section should be re-launched -- or some sort of amateur community for early projects / tests / shovelware / super low budget games where people can pay for access to get all available content (or maybe even free) -- but WITHOUT trophy support for the games. Some of these titles can exist there.

 

Sony has no skin in that game.

 

They don’t have, nor do they endorse, any leaderboards, and therefore have 0 responsibility to “protect the integrity” of them.

Sony’s responsibility begins and ends with their own store- ensuring that users browsing the store are not inundated with these shovelware things…

…which they have somewhat done. Not perfect, but they have marginalised their visibility to the casual store user. I certainly see less of them than I once did.

 

As far as Sony is concerned, Trophies are purely an individual thing, not for competition, and are as much a useful tool for devs to see how players are playing their game than a badge of honour for players themselves.

 

As far as leaderboards are concerned though, the Trophy sites created them, and are the custodians of them.

If the rules need to change, the sites need to change them.

 

The sites need to stop trying to pass the buck to Sony. If they want something done, they have to do it themselves.

 

[PhantomFear94]

16 hours ago, SReinbach4 said:

Probably too little too late, but it’s something that I would be on board with.

 

While I do think that everybody should be able to game as they see fit and play whatever they wish for whatever reason, that doesn’t necessarily mean that 5 minute plats need to be a thing either.

 

Not necessarily. Xbox have forced delistings in the past - for example, a game called One Step After Fall had language stacks which they delisted after a review. It wouldn't shock me if some games were delisted, and console command offenders had requests to patch that method (e.g. rememoried)

 

[EqualityEarth]

15 hours ago, TJ_Solo said:

No remedy has attempted to address the games that have been sold and trophies that have been already earned.

 

14 hours ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

The damage has already been done imo. The only way to have any competitive aspect to trophy/achievement hunting is to have competitions that exclude these games or for 3rd party sites like this to exclude them on a leaderboard.

 

The people who are like "Let people play what they want. It doesn't bother your experience" are only partially correct; some people simply want a competitive aspect to hunting and having these games DOES ruin their experience. It doesn't affect their enjoyment in what they play, but it does affect any enjoyment of competition or spirit in it. 

 

5 hours ago, Startyde said:

My point is there is no one-fits-all approach for how people will judge the competitive nature of trophies. The ONLY solution is to add filters to the leaderboards or additional leaderboards that cater to certain tastes and profiles so players can find their niche to participate against and track it.

 

I agree that the nature of trophy collecting has changed, but it started far longer back than shovelware and the trophy sites didn't evolve to recalibrate. 

Solution suggested here.

 

Nothing else is terribly necessary for me to add. All that I’ve quoted is on point. People who say they “don’t care” are lying to themselves. You do care, it just hurts to be conscious of how much you care when the environment clashes with common sense. Ask yourself “what makes a game, a game?”

Rarity scoring (oft brought up as a blanket method to devalue shovelware) is an enticing method at a glance, but it won’t save a soul. That’s why it hasn’t happened yet. If the “magic formula” was plain to see, we’d be through with this farce already. Ask yourself “why would people write guides and help others earn the same trophies, making them less rare?”

 

Sly, you made a good site, and bad things happened to it (by extension, to be fair, only directly, and ‘irreparably’ to PSN). The other sites don’t have to follow suit but this one can be the gold standard. You already started it too (as mentioned below), I didn’t forget that! If games’ points on the leaderboards got split by genre instead of being a single total (there will always be the single total in sight on one’s profile anyway), not only will I be on a wanted poster (hope not though) but games’ trophies will mean more again like they used to. No one is going to manage ignoring everyone else.

 

1 hour ago, Aodir said:

Could argue that it's the trophy sites that enabled these easy lists to be a ''problem'', I'm not a betting man but I'd wager the minute the shovelware filter applies to the leaderboards it would simply kill the sales for them, and it would definitely be easier than having Sony actually care and retroactively remove them as some suggest here.. 

[SpaceIsDandy]

Is there an "official definition" of shovelware? Does that definition ever change and what happens if a game is no longer considered shovelware? (Ratalakia vs breakthough games), Ive never been one to browse the store as I just look on sites like psprices or have a bunch of stuff on my wishlist so I dont have a horse in this race however Im interested in how far someone could push this though like are walking sims/visual novel/ cross gen games that autopop/children's licensed games bannable?

Edited May 27, 2023 by SpaceIsDandy

[TJ_Solo]

Quote

Solution suggested here.

 

I am not referring to user proposed changes for PSN or this particular site. I am talking about changes that have been rumored or stated to be in the works from Xbox and PlayStation. Complete removal of games and trophies from people's profiles that paid for said content is a haphazard fix from some people that are being more emotional than logical.

 

If PlayStation or Xbox remove their acheivement systems entirely, there would be uproar but everyone would be on equal ground and be treated fairly the same. However, creating a witchhunt against EZ Plat games and just removing those trophy systems would not be treating everyone fairly. Without even trying to figure out the legalities of doing such a thing there would still be a serious underming of trust for both developers and end users. Developers would have to worry about what defines a witch as a witch. While end users will need some PR spin/compensation as they take the hit of having witches on their profile. Yes, wiping out data from a profile will need more than a "deal with it" sticker. These are real companies not hobbists looking for some form of revenge or emotional recompense.

 

Xbox is  rumored to be changing their cert proccess going forward. There's nothing about a retroactive removal of games or achievementsfrom XBL or end user accounts.

This is yet another topic being dragged off-topic about dozens of tangential matters and disengious retorts. 

 

Quote

Is there an "official definition" of shovelware?

 

There is not. People here mostly go by the "I know it when I see it" thought process.

PlayStation and Xbox may need something more definitive.

Edited May 27, 2023 by TJ_Solo

[RedDevil757]

1 hour ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

Is there an "official definition" of shovelware?

You really need people to spell it out for you? Shovelware is a game that's been made with minimal effort. The sort of game that people wouldn't touch if it had no trophies.

[SpaceIsDandy]

1 hour ago, RedDevil757 said:

You really need people to spell it out for you? Shovelware is a game that's been made with minimal effort. The sort of game that people wouldn't touch if it had no trophies.

 

And you are the one to decide that? I guess Visual novels are fine to ban? After all who is seriously playing things like Doki doki on ps5 in 2023 for anything but the trophies? If anybody really wanted to play that game they would have done it on the platform it was designed for in the half decade its been out and talked about (ignoring the fact that the only twist in that game is as known if not more known than the game itself).

 

You also conveniently ignore the part of my question about what used to be called shovelware vs what is today. People called Ratalakia games shovelware but most of them are actual games with mechanics that non shovelware games have. I would not have touched Pinball Heros if it didnt have trophies (1/10, 1 hour, 81% platinum) but I hate pinball so its shovelware? even if someone could play it because they like pinball?

Edited May 27, 2023 by SpaceIsDandy

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

 

After all who is seriously playing things like Doki doki on ps5 in 2023 for anything but the trophies? If anybody really wanted to play that game they would have done it on the platform it was designed for in the half decade its been out and talked about (ignoring the fact that the only twist in that game is as known if not more known than the game itself).

That argument is complete nonsense. 

I played Doki Doki last year, for the first time…

…because it came to, y’know, the console I game on.

 

I hear about lots of good games on PC. Means nothing to me, as I don’t have a PC. Same for Xbox.

 

When a game comes to the platform I have, that’s when I play it. 

I got the trophies, but I didn’t “play it only for trophies”.

If trophies were all I cared about, I’d just play Jumping Foodstuffs and Stroke the Livestock.

[Elvick_]

16 hours ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

People paid for pressing a button and stroke the pic of a fish, they still can do that, trophies were an extra aspect of the PS consoles that can be taken out whenever Sony wants... Like the online component of some games... But we all know that Sony won't change anything... Because they dont care... As long as it isn't a GaaS... They dont care... 

trophies aren’t an online feature. It’s a system feature. Syncing them is the online component. 
 

Are people ever going to fuck off with this dumb tired ass topic? “Oh no my digital picture collection isn’t valuable to others because some other people’s digital picture collection was easier to get ????”

 

no it isn’t valuable to others because nobody gives a shit about you or your list.

[SpaceIsDandy]

21 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

That argument is complete nonsense.

I hear about lots of good games on PC. Means nothing to me, as I don’t have a PC. Same for Xbox.

 

I used DDLC as an example because it's a visual novel that was on their profile. If we want to get specific to DDLC there have been both android and apple ports (unofficial and you can run things like joiplay), and it can be ran on ALMOST ANY pc/laptop/mac that has been sold in the last half decade

 

Still I will believe that you wanted to play the game but not enough to look into it at all (and somehow you still post thousands of times to this site without having a pc or phone that runs ios or android), and that you would still have paid for and played DDLC if it had 0 trophies, and that somehow you did not know the single twist in that game. Sadly if those changes were made we wouldnt get a say, whoever is in charge could look and say "I think ALL visual novels count as shovelware because I personally dont consider them to have gameplay"

 

21 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I got the trophies, but I didn’t “play it only for trophies”.

If trophies were all I cared about, I’d just play Jumping Foodstuffs and Stroke the Livestock.

 

That argument is complete nonsense.

if you only played those games people could say you arent a real trophy hunter

Edited May 27, 2023 by SpaceIsDandy

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

 

I used DDLC as an example because it's a visual novel that was on their profile. If we want to get specific to DDLC there have been both android and apple ports (unofficial and you can run things like joiplay), and it can be ran on ALMOST ANY pc/laptop/mac that has been sold in the last half decade

 

Still I will believe that you wanted to play the game but not enough to look into it at all (and somehow you still post thousands of times to this site without having a pc or phone that runs ios or android), and that you would still have paid for and played DDLC if it had 0 trophies, and that somehow you did not know the single twist in that game. Sadly if those changes were made we wouldnt get a say, whoever is in charge could look and say "I think ALL visual novels count as shovelware because I personally dont consider them to have gameplay"

 

I didn’t say I didn’t know some of the twists.

I did. 

So?

 

Also, whether it would actually run on my phone, or on my Mac is irrelevant- the point is that my consoles are what I game on.

 

I don’t play any games on my Mac, and I don’t play many games on phone - and the ones I do are usually shorter burst games - not a long and involved visual novel.

 

 

My point is, you said people would only play the game for trophies - and that’s wrong.

 

I played it for the same reason I play any game: I wanted to play it, and it was available on the console I game on.

That it has trophies is just the same bonus as every other game on the system.

 

 

5 minutes ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

 

That argument is complete nonsense.

if you only played those games people could say you arent a real trophy hunter

 

People already say I’m not a “real” trophy hunter.

Why would I give a shit about that?

People say lots of stuff 

[SpaceIsDandy]

14 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

People already say I’m not a “real” trophy hunter.

Why would I give a shit about that?

People say lots of stuff 

 

So why do you give a shit if shovelware is on others profile? ?

 

I already said I believe that you for sure played DDLC for the story and not because its easy you dont need to keep defending that you did btw

Edited May 27, 2023 by SpaceIsDandy

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

 

So why do you give a shit if shovelware is on others profile?

 

I don’t.

 

Why do think I care about that?

 

I’m not in here defending or admonishing shovelware. I don’t care what anyone plays.

 

My post was simply saying that if something was to be done about shovelware vis-a-vis the leaderboards, it would be up the sites, not Sony.

[SpaceIsDandy]

5 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

 

Why do think I care about that?

 

I’m not in here defending or admonishing shovelware. I don’t care what anyone plays.

 

My post was simply saying that if something was to be done about shovelware vis-a-vis the leaderboards, it would be up the sites, not Sony.

 

The subject of the thread is about cracking down on shovelware...... so i assume everyone here has an opinion on it or has questions about it like i posted

 

your post makes no mention of what should be done? you call my argument nonsense and then go on to defend why this one specific game shouldn't count?

 

Edit: oh I see in a post I never interacted with and that was posted before my questions....sorry I didnt read multiple pages of a tired thread when all I cared about was the minutia of what makes something "shovelware", how that varies from person to person, and what that COULD mean

Edited May 27, 2023 by SpaceIsDandy

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

 

The subject of the thread is about cracking down on shovelware...... so i assume everyone here has an opinion on it or has questions about it like i posted

 

your post makes no mention of what should be done? you call my argument nonsense and then go on to defend why this one specific game shouldn't count?

 

Edit: oh I see in a post I never interacted with and that was posted before my questions....sorry I didnt read multiple pages of a tired thread when all I cared about was the minutia of what makes something "shovelware", how that varies from person to person, and what that COULD mean

Okay…? 

 

…I don’t really know whether you’re arguing with me or not at this point?

 

I was pointing out that I am an actual, demonstrable example of why your statement about DDLC was wrong.

You can chose to “believe” me or not, but it’s immaterial.

 

That was all - I wasn’t impugning or celebrating shovelware - and I haven’t looked at your profile, so have no idea if you have a thousand shovelware lists, or none. It makes no odds to me, as all my comments would be the same regardless.

 

As far as shovelware goes generally, my opinion is:

kinda silly, and tends to bury good but small games, and cloud them in a stigma they don’t deserve…

… but ultimately harmless unless someone is super invested in the Leaderboard positions.

 

Personally, I openly celebrate (on this site) every time I go down another 50 places in the UK LB…
…so, not terribly invested, beyond for the lulz.

[B1rvine]

5 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Sony has no skin in that game.

 

They don’t have, nor do they endorse, any leaderboards, and therefore have 0 responsibility to “protect the integrity” of them.

Sony’s responsibility begins and ends with their own store- ensuring that users browsing the store are not inundated with these shovelware things…

…which they have somewhat done. Not perfect, but they have marginalised their visibility to the casual store user. I certainly see less of them than I once did.

 

As far as Sony is concerned, Trophies are purely an individual thing, not for competition, and are as much a useful tool for devs to see how players are playing their game than a badge of honour for players themselves.

 

As far as leaderboards are concerned though, the Trophy sites created them, and are the custodians of them.

If the rules need to change, the sites need to change them.

 

The sites need to stop trying to pass the buck to Sony. If they want something done, they have to do it themselves.

The quality of the overall product also matters. When the PSN store is flooded with low quality titles, the entire brand is affected negatively, and possibly even the industry (hello video game crash ‘78).

 

There’s similar reasons to nuke the trophy lists, too.
 

This isn’t about leaderboards, but I don’t deny that we’d benefit with a change like this.

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, B1rvine said:

The quality of the overall product also matters. When the PSN store is flooded with low quality titles, the entire brand is affected negatively, and possibly even the industry (hello video game crash ‘78).

 

There’s similar reasons to nuke the trophy lists, too.
 

This isn’t about leaderboards, but I don’t deny that we’d benefit with a change like this.

that’s true - and I agree that the shovelwares are too plentiful, and taint the brand, and should at the least be sidelined in the store (they pretty much are now, but not fully) 

- my response was more in respect to your point about nuking the existing trophies for the games.

 

Sony might, in some extreme scenario, nuke all the shovelware from the store, but they have no real interest or responsibility to nuke the trophies from the server, or from people’s profiles even if they could - because all that affects is Leaderboards, which they have no part in.

 

On that aspect, my point was - the sites would be the ones to do it, not Sony, as custodians of the Leaderboards they themselves created, and manage.

 

 

[PalaceOfLove706]

I don’t even know how they could use the shovelware filter on the leaderboards. Every game that has region stacks now gets the filter so they can keep the new games list cleaner. There’s tonnes of non-shovelware getting filtered now. 

[SpaceIsDandy]

16 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

…I don’t really know whether you’re arguing with me or not at this point?

 

I dont think I ever was. I posted questions about what shovelware is and 2 people replied directly. One person answered and the other started talking down to me (does it need to be spelled out like you would for a child). I pulled an example of what SOMEONE COULD consider shovelware from their profile (as in a game where you only need to press 1 or 2 buttons and beyond that there is no gameplay) in a sarcastic tone because they were speaking down to me. 

 

Just now, PalaceOfLove706 said:

I don’t even know how they could use the shovelware filter on the leaderboards. Every game that has region stacks now gets the filter so they can keep the new games list cleaner. There’s tonnes of non-shovelware getting filtered now. 

 

This is already going down the path of what I asked but from what I can see most people assume that if some action is taken it will just so happen to line up with their opinion on the matter

Edited May 27, 2023 by SpaceIsDandy

[sepheroithisgod]

 

6 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Sony has no skin in that game.

 

They don’t have, nor do they endorse, any leaderboards, and therefore have 0 responsibility to “protect the integrity” of them.

Sony’s responsibility begins and ends with their own store- ensuring that users browsing the store are not inundated with these shovelware things…

…which they have somewhat done. Not perfect, but they have marginalised their visibility to the casual store user. I certainly see less of them than I once did.

 

As far as Sony is concerned, Trophies are purely an individual thing, not for competition, and are as much a useful tool for devs to see how players are playing their game than a badge of honour for players themselves.

 

As far as leaderboards are concerned though, the Trophy sites created them, and are the custodians of them.

If the rules need to change, the sites need to change them.

 

The sites need to stop trying to pass the buck to Sony. If they want something done, they have to do it themselves.

 

I agree with this. At the end of the day, if some random guy saw this website at a glance and noticed that the leaderboard was just made up of these shovelware titles, they probably think its something the community is for, but as many polls and topics on this site have proven, it's the exact opposite.

Most hobby's created their own rule sets that help promote the hobby. Think of speed running categories. It's not really an equal competition if someone is using glitches and others are not. Earning trophies in regular games is not the same as doing so in shovelware titles.

 

 It's really up to PSNP(@Sly Ripper) and other trophy sites to implement the changes we want to see. Creating alternative leaderboards that preserve the leaderboards is really important. Whether it's as simple as making games marked as shovelware worth 0 points or a rarity leaderboard, these options only help the hobby grow.

 

P.S: I'm not saying the main leaderboard should be removed. if people want to compete to see who can play the most shovelware titles, more power to them, but not acknowledging that it negatively impacts the competitive nature for people who are interested in actually playing games it ridiculous.

Edited May 27, 2023 by sepheroithisgod

[DrBloodmoney]

23 minutes ago, SpaceIsDandy said:

I am not saying (insert press x to jump/pet/whatever) game is not shovelware I am just wondering where that line is and who draws it, and how people would feel if that line was too far/not far enough

I do remember actually trying to come upwith a legit answer to this in some other thread - I’ll see if I can find it when I’m not on my phone.

 

My concern, of course, is legit good but small games getting caught in a purge - my go to is always The Longest Road on Earth, which is a really good little game that was genuinely touching and features an amazing album of music…, but could easily be mistaken for shovelware by too loose a definition.

 

(BTW, I didn’t think you were trolling… I just thought you were incorrect about DDLC ?)

 

 

EDIT:

 

Found it:

 

Quote

I would suggest though, that the "is it a game?" question could very easily be defined using a set of very, very loose definition questions. For example:

 

 

• Is the player required to press more than one button on the controller, at specific times/rhythms/patterns etc?
• Is there a narrative that can be followed?
• Is it possible to "finish" the game (i.e. see credits) without unlocking all trophies?
• Is there any unique content/ interaction within the product, beyond static art?
• Is there a potential fail-state (game-over screen etc.)?
• Does the product feature any discernable "point of view" or message interpretive to the player?
• Can the player make any choice as to the outcome of the game, or affect the outcome?
• Is the game impossible to replicate using Microsoft Powerpoint, beyond tracking of a counter?
• Would a domestic animal (cat / dog/ canary etc,) if trained to interact with the controller, be unable to platinum it?

 

...where if the answer to ANY of the questions is "YES", then it would be classed as a "game", and only if EVERY answer was no, then it would be considered "software"/ “shovelware”.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by DrBloodmoney

[SpaceIsDandy]

22 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I do remember actually trying to come upwith a legit answer to this in some other thread - I’ll see if I can find it when I’m not on my phone.

 

My concern, of course, is legit good but small games getting caught in a purge - my go to is always The Longest Road on Earth, which is a really good little game that was genuinely touching and features an amazing album of music…, but could easily be mistaken for shovelware by too loose a definition.

 

(BTW, I didn’t think you were trolling… I just thought you were incorrect about DDLC )

 

I mean the whole "pornography" approach of "you'll know it when you see it" is an acceptable likely even "correct" answer but not very interesting to think about or discuss. I saw that game on your profile and that is exactly what I am talking about and that game (i assume) is more than most renpy visual novels that have been ported to consoles all the way back the the ps3 that end up being fast forwarded though with gameplay that is pressing up/down to pick a choice and x/o to select it.

 

like I said i picked DDLC because it was on the profile of someone talking down to me a "better" choice would be one of the erotic visual novels that are (i assume and hope lol) dont have the sex scenes on PlayStation while they do on PC.... but even then you run into people like yourself who can legitimately not consider them shovelware for any number of reasons  which is basically what I was asking in the first place.

 

until the guy who accused me of trolling answers my question im just going to assume he was having a bad day/is trying to stir things up even in my "trolling" post i still had points to discuss ? 

 

Spoiler

I would suggest though, that the "is it a game?" question could very easily be defined using a set of very, very loose definition questions. For example:

 

 

• Is the player required to press more than one button on the controller, at specific times/rhythms/patterns etc?
• Is there a narrative that can be followed?
• Is it possible to "finish" the game (i.e. see credits) without unlocking all trophies?
• Is there any unique content/ interaction within the product, beyond static art?
• Is there a potential fail-state (game-over screen etc.)?
• Does the product feature any discernable "point of view" or message interpretive to the player?
• Can the player make any choice as to the outcome of the game, or affect the outcome?
• Is the game impossible to replicate using Microsoft Powerpoint, beyond tracking of a counter?
• Would a domestic animal (cat / dog/ canary etc,) if trained to interact with the controller, be unable to platinum it?

 

...where if the answer to ANY of the questions is "YES", then it would be classed as a "game", and only if EVERY answer was no, then it would be considered "software"/ “shovelware”.

 

Thank you for falling for my trol answering my question. I think a list like this is better than people saying "shovelware is shovelware you dumb troll" and like you said would prevent "legit" games from falling through the cracks

Edited May 27, 2023 by SpaceIsDandy

[Startyde]

30 minutes ago, sepheroithisgod said:

P.S: I'm not saying the main leaderboard should be removed. if people want to compete to see who can play the most shovelware titles, more power to them, but not acknowledging that it negatively impacts the competitive nature for people who are interested in actually playing games it ridiculous.

 

AH, I was so close to agreeing with you until you went off the rails.

 

Everyone is playing the same game with the same rules, with leaderboards as an aggregate of trophy totals...who can rank as high as they can with the most plats or trophy points. 

 

It's like Mario Kart, who can get the highest rank in racing. 

 

The problem is, some of you are complaining that picking up a banana, or star or red shell is unfair and ruining the integrity of Kart Racing. You would never be caught using a red shell for a boost so noone should be allowed to. The purity of racing I tell you...THE PURITY!

 

Do you see how insane that logic sounds?

 

If you can't compete with others emotionally, stop trying. Pretend your trophy list is the only one on earth and compete against yourself and your own expectations in what you look for in gaming.

[Merty]

Looks like someone is scared to lose 99% of their hard earned trophies.

[SpaceIsDandy]

2 minutes ago, Startyde said:

If you can't compete with others emotionally, stop trying. Pretend your trophy list is the only one on earth and compete against yourself and your own expectations in what you look for in gaming.

 

Emotionally? You mean financially? Those .99 cent stacks add up fast! ?