Trophy Rarity Question

[BlindMango]

Gah, these threads get so massive, you could write a book with them
 

Anyway. This should be an example using Dishonored

 
Now I see what Sly's talking about, I like it, looks like a good compromise to me. It would make average rarity more of a realistic number and also not make DLC trophy rarity look completely cheap when you get a trophy for, say finishing The Last of Us on grounded difficulty.
 
Is this what we shall go with? Yes? Awesome. Thread successful 

Edited November 6, 2015 by BlindMango

[Auto-Tomato]

The only way of garnering reasonable accuracy is in the hands of Sony, and all they would have to do is have their systems communicate game start-ups for dlc the same way they do for base games, instead of the current situation of loading a trophy set with dlc subsets...reserving those subsets until an activation, which would add them to the trophy list, would not only solve the completion rate issue but also be fairer to dlc stats, when, of course, this site piggybacked the format, but...it's not going to happen, or at best is highly doubtful, and would likely involve devs themselves working on code prompts.  

 

I appreciate the 1 trophy situation but I think that argument should be dropped.   It does highlight the issue, but, as far as I'm aware, and if we're talking extremes, it really is a rare occurrence (correct me if I'm wrong) and perhaps people should just accept that it's problematic and will always be a 100% common due to the inadequacy of the trophy system itself.

 

We all know both methods are fallible, but to judge an average from any figures we currently have would purely be a guestimate at heart, as it stands, if we can track dlc trophy achievers then at least there's a reasonable basis for judging rarity.   To take the mass of base gamers is to presume they own or have played (without earning) said dlc and in my eyes somewhat akin to just plucking numbers out of thin air.   To take an average of anything, while it might appease some, is predominantly inaccurate.    

 

Dlc is treated the same way base games are, while the smaller trophy numbers create bigger problems, should we really start having one rule for base game trophies and another for dlc trophies?   Isn't that just further skewing the problem?   At the very least, the current method, or whichever method, is consistent for everyone, and to me known players to achievers is the best we have, otherwise, as I've said, we're making numbers up as we go...

[Doom]

Gah, these threads get so massive, you could write a book with them

 

 

Now I see what Sly's talking about, I like it, looks like a good compromise to me. It would make average rarity more of a realistic number and also not make DLC trophy rarity look completely cheap when you get a trophy for, say finishing The Last of Us on grounded difficulty.

 

Is this what we shall go with? Yes? Awesome. Thread successful 

Personally I'd like this new method because it would eradicate single trophy dlcs at 100% and give a less extreme % all around for all other trophies.

[Auto-Tomato]

 

Regardless of what some think this table says, or how happy it makes them, the only thing it tells me is that the current method is the only accurate one.   Right off the bat, OWNERS: 162589 (base game)...immediately inaccurate, we have no idea how many more 'owners' there are, PLAYERS: 162589 (base game)...registered players, as accurate as we can record, otherwise, again, we're just picking random numbers to add to totals.   So there's the framework to judge rarity, 162589 registered players, we know this and it's what we have to work with, it's fair, it's factual and not open to speculations.

 

Let's take the first trophy, DLC 1 T1, registered players - 2256, 1308 achievers, again, as accurate as we can record as fact, and the known number of base game players to have played the dlc:  

 

Old:  0.8%, based on achievers to base game players, wildly inaccurate, and worse given we have a factual dlc player count.

 

Current:  57.98%, based on achievers to registered dlc players, 100% accurate within the framework, reasonably accurate even out-with.

 

Sly:  29.39%, based on an average of Old & Current values, inaccurate.   Less than a third of gamers achieved this trophy...which gamers?   I can see 2256 of them but where are the mystery gamers?

 

 

Now I'm not saying holes can't be poked, but the only format with any shred of integrity is, to me, quite clearly the current one!

 

1 trophy dlc gripes should be put aside, unless we want to compromise the integrity of the site (for the love of...now I'm starting with the drama), scratch that, the integrity of the trophy rarity system to some degree.   The best we can do is to track registered players, until such times as Sony revamps their trophy system, if that will ever happen, then what we know as factual is the best we have to work with.   I know it's a bit crap for some achievers of specific trophies, but it's the same situation for everyone on the site.

 

Contrary to what some might think, I'm fairly easy going with regards to the problem, if Sly wants to change it then fair enough, I'm not out to deny anyone a fairer rarity representation, but I do think the current set-up is as good as it gets, there's no phantom numbers floating around, and while a few trophies might get a raw deal, the vast majority are as fairly represented as is possible.   

 

Anyway, think I've ran out of nonsense to write on this thread, I'll let it be now!!  

Edited November 6, 2015 by RedMustang72

[MMDE]

It's an attempt to try and 'normalize' the 2 methods because they both dish out extreme % almost always.

 

In the case of DLCs with less trophies or where all trophies takes a lot of time or are hard etc, it's probably quite misleading as it currently is, but at the very least we aren't making up numbers this way. Still, I'd contest the notion that the current method almost always dishes out extreme %s... The reason for this is that many people get a game and only play a little bit of it, while those who purchase the DLCs and start playing those are more likely to get all the trophies too. Hopefully you see this point, and as such, we'd expect DLC trophy rarity % to be higher, if not much higher, if it was properly implemented in the way that we could see everyone who had actually played the DLCs.

 

If this is the Uncharted 3 DLCs, I'd say it makes for a rather poor example. It's connected to the MP, when the game is generally a single player game, and the trophies are actually pretty hard and time consuming.

Edited November 6, 2015 by MMDE

[Auto-Tomato]

In the case of DLCs with less trophies or where all trophies takes a lot of time or are hard etc, it's probably quite misleading as it currently is, but at the very least we aren't making up numbers this way. Still, I'd contest the notion that the current method almost always dishes out extreme %s... The reason for this is that many people get a game and only play a little bit of it, while those who purchase the DLCs and start playing those are more likely to get all the trophies too. Hopefully you see this point, and as such, we'd expect DLC trophy rarity % to be higher, if not much higher, if it was properly implemented in the way that we could see everyone who had actually played the DLCs.

 

If this is the Uncharted 3 DLCs, I'd say it makes for a rather poor example. It's connected to the MP, when the game is generally a single player game, and the trophies are actually pretty hard and time consuming.

I should have clarified, it's the Dishonoured dlc list as put up by Doc Doom (I think).   

 

Other than that, whether the implication or usage as a bench mark, trophy rarities are not about difficulty, time, effort etc..., they purely, and reasonably, represent the ratio of players to achievers.   I do feel for people that slog through a tough trophy and receive a 100% common, but then, so did everyone else that (we know) attempted it...so the rarity is correct.   The exception being the 1 trophy dlc, but as mentioned there's no way to give it a proper value...none whatsoever, yet we're effectively talking about compromising the values of all other dlc trophies to satisfy that itch.

 

The table above, anything other than the current method, and we are compromising the rarity value of all 30 of those trophies...at least, that's how I see it and I think anyone is going to have a tough time persuading me otherwise.   Tracked game players to achievers is the best we can do, any other method is either speculative or unquantifiable.    

[Gibbo_0113]

Dunwall city trials - time management as an example

 

Current method - 32.45% of 2256 owners equals 732 which is exactly what is should be.

 

Suggested method. 16.45% of 2256 owners equals 371 which is not right. 

 

So unless i'm doing the math wrong i don't see how the new version would work more accurately than the current.

[BlindMango]

New idea that I think would fix everything here - let me know what you think.

 

Okay, so I guess why not throw in my idea of how it should probably be, trash or love this idea as much as you'd like but read it all so you get what I'm saying   
 
DLC rarity should be calculated on the basis of all owners of the base game like it used to be (like how it is on PSN), as that is literally accurate (it doesn't matter if you've bought the DLC or not, the way it is on PSN is that the DLC trophies are packaged with the base game, no matter if you own it or not, that's the way it is and we can't change that). With this in mind, DLC rarity categories should be classified differently from the base game trophy categories. So instead of 5% and below being Ultra Rare for a DLC trophy, 1% and below should be Ultra Rare for DLC, and so on (or whatever it should be - 0.75%, 0.50% and below is ultra rare, whatever).

• In the Trophy Log and trophy lists it will just say for example "1.50% Rare (DLC)" for a DLC trophy, if it were a trophy for a base game, it would as usual say "1.50% Ultra Rare" like it does now. This will instantly explain the difference.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they have "Too Many" Ultra Rare trophies with the old system as it would still be hard to get an Ultra Rare DLC trophy due to their shifted requirement.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they "don't have enough" ultra rare trophies due to a 100% DLC trophy actually being a hell of an experience and it now being an accurate percent.
• Now the "Average Rarity" percentage at the top of your profile is an accurate number.
• The 5 rarest trophies module on the right side of your profile would now show your 5 rarest base games trophies and 5 rarest DLC trophies in a "separate" section under that (if people wanted that), otherwise they would just be mixed with each other.
• In the end, I think the trophy log would be the only thing that people may have an issue with if they decided to specifically filter "Order (Rarity)" and "Direction (Ascending)", if they did that they would obviously get some DLC trophies ahead of base game trophies (because you're filtering by rarity percent), it might look weird, but it's still accurate as you're filtering by rarity percent. If you filter by Rarity (Rarity Category) above all that, it would show all trophies (DLC and non-DLC) in that category filtered by percent. It might look odd, but it's still all accurate along the lines with what you're filtering.

I previously said months ago when Sly added the average rarity stat to profiles that he "shot himself in the foot" so to speak by doing that, I predicted threads like this and I wasn't wrong. 

 

Basically, return the DLC to rely on base game percents like it used to be but just shift the DLC percent categories (as the categories are what people care about). I really want to know what people think about this. Every other idea is "Yeah, but that messes this up" and so on, I can't think of what this would mess up, lol

Edited November 7, 2015 by BlindMango

[Auto-Tomato]

Okay, so I guess why not throw in my idea of how it should probably be, trash or love this idea as much as you'd like but read it all so you get what I'm saying   

 

DLC rarity should be calculated on the basis of all owners of the base game like it used to be (like how it is on PSN), as that is literally accurate (it doesn't matter if you've bought the DLC or not, the way it is on PSN is that the DLC trophies are packaged with the base game, no matter if you own it or not, that's the way it is and we can't change that). With this in mind, DLC rarity categories should be classified differently from the base game trophy categories. So instead of 5% and below being Ultra Rare for a DLC trophy, 1% and below should be Ultra Rare for DLC, and so on (or whatever it should be - 0.75%, 0.50% and below is ultra rare, whatever).

• In the Trophy Log and trophy lists it will just say for example "1.50% Rare (DLC)" for a DLC trophy, if it were a trophy for a base game, it would as usual say "1.50% Ultra Rare" like it does now. This will instantly explain the difference.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they have "Too Many" Ultra Rare trophies with the old system as it would still be hard to get an Ultra Rare DLC trophy due to their shifted requirement.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they "don't have enough" ultra rare trophies due to a 100% DLC trophy actually being a hell of an experience and it now being an accurate percent.
• Now the "Average Rarity" percentage at the top of your profile is an accurate number.

I previously said months ago when Sly added the average rarity stat to profiles that he "shot himself in the foot" so to speak by doing that, I predicted threads like this and I wasn't wrong. 

 

Basically, return the DLC to rely on base game percents like it used to be but just shift the DLC percent categories (as the categories are what people care about). I really want to know what people think about this. Every other idea is "Yeah, but that messes this up" and so on, I can't think of what this would mess up, lol

You'd make a good number fiddler, I mean, er, accountant Mango!  

 

It's a fair idea, but for one, people already view the PSN system as unfair, and poorly representing values, which is why most prefer the work Sly does here.   I must admit, although I can understand the premise, I have a real problem accepting that rarity values should incorporate people that neither own, or have played the content.   It's a bit like saying every game that makes the IGC should instantly be represented by the millions of PS Plus subscribers, whether they have any interest or have even downloaded said games...   And staying with Plus, taking the more realistic numbers of Plus games that people do actually play, they almost never come with dlc (has there ever been one?), so again, every month, any dlc laden Plus game is going to see previous dlc owners of said game have a drastic change in rarity values...based on vast numbers of people that have never played the dlc...

 

I honestly have no concern with ultra rare or common values, and/or whoever has how many of each, I'm just not convinced that anything other than calculating a value based on player attempts to achievers is accurate, even though I'll admit it's not perfect, it's as accurate as we can be given the data.  

 

It's not an unreasonable idea though, and if it keeps people happy...but I, sincerely, would never see the values as accurate.   Giving a trophy a rarity value based on thousands (usually/often) of core base players that have never encountered the content, and unless they purchase the dlc (at which point they'll be fairly represented by the current method), will never earn said trophy, obviously...I just can't buy into that, to me it's not a true value of who can or can't earn a trophy.    

[thegirlruka]

New idea that I think would fix everything here - let me know what you think.

 

Okay, so I guess why not throw in my idea of how it should probably be, trash or love this idea as much as you'd like but read it all so you get what I'm saying   

 

DLC rarity should be calculated on the basis of all owners of the base game like it used to be (like how it is on PSN), as that is literally accurate (it doesn't matter if you've bought the DLC or not, the way it is on PSN is that the DLC trophies are packaged with the base game, no matter if you own it or not, that's the way it is and we can't change that). With this in mind, DLC rarity categories should be classified differently from the base game trophy categories. So instead of 5% and below being Ultra Rare for a DLC trophy, 1% and below should be Ultra Rare for DLC, and so on (or whatever it should be - 0.75%, 0.50% and below is ultra rare, whatever).

• In the Trophy Log and trophy lists it will just say for example "1.50% Rare (DLC)" for a DLC trophy, if it were a trophy for a base game, it would as usual say "1.50% Ultra Rare" like it does now. This will instantly explain the difference.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they have "Too Many" Ultra Rare trophies with the old system as it would still be hard to get an Ultra Rare DLC trophy due to their shifted requirement.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they "don't have enough" ultra rare trophies due to a 100% DLC trophy actually being a hell of an experience and it now being an accurate percent.
• Now the "Average Rarity" percentage at the top of your profile is an accurate number.
• The 5 rarest trophies module on the right side of your profile would now show your 5 rarest base games trophies and 5 rarest DLC trophies in a "separate" section under that (if people wanted that), otherwise they would just be mixed with each other.
• In the end, I think the trophy log would be the only thing that people may have an issue with if they decided to specifically filter "Order (Rarity)" and "Direction (Ascending)", if they did that they would obviously get some DLC trophies ahead of base game trophies (because you're filtering by rarity percent), it might look weird, but it's still accurate as you're filtering by rarity percent. If you filter by Rarity (Rarity Category) above all that, it would show all trophies (DLC and non-DLC) in that category filtered by percent. It might look odd, but it's still all accurate along the lines with what you're filtering.

I previously said months ago when Sly added the average rarity stat to profiles that he "shot himself in the foot" so to speak by doing that, I predicted threads like this and I wasn't wrong. 

 

Basically, return the DLC to rely on base game percents like it used to be but just shift the DLC percent categories (as the categories are what people care about). I really want to know what people think about this. Every other idea is "Yeah, but that messes this up" and so on, I can't think of what this would mess up, lol

If I understand this correctly, it would calculate the numbers based on the old system and then assign trophy rarity names to values 1/10 of the "normal" requirements. So between 0-0.5^- is ultra-rare, 0.5-1.0^- would be very rare, 1.0-5.0^- would be uncommon, and anything above 5.0 would be common? And then as a sort of quickfix for your last bullet point, the DLC trophies' rarities could be multiplied by 10 when sorting by rarity since that's essentially how the rarity names are given... though that could cause a problem if any DLC trophies have a value above 10% (games like TWD season 2.)

 

Am I understanding your idea correctly?

Edited November 7, 2015 by Jibril

[closertim]

The best way which was mentioned earlier is if any trophy had been earned from any dlc pack it would determine as all dlc packs have been being played. It's still guessing but it's more of an educated guess.

[Doom]

If this is the Uncharted 3 DLCs, I'd say it makes for a rather poor example. It's connected to the MP, when the game is generally a single player game, and the trophies are actually pretty hard and time consuming.

It's Dishonored.

Dunwall city trials - time management as an example

 

Current method - 32.45% of 2256 owners equals 732 which is exactly what is should be.

 

Suggested method. 16.45% of 2256 owners equals 371 which is not right. 

 

So unless i'm doing the math wrong i don't see how the new version would work more accurately than the current.

It's an average of the old method and the actual method. You can't use the % to reverse calculate how many people have the trophy. And you don't need to. Each trophy has the number of achievers in its own page.

New idea that I think would fix everything here - let me know what you think.

 

Okay, so I guess why not throw in my idea of how it should probably be, trash or love this idea as much as you'd like but read it all so you get what I'm saying   

 

DLC rarity should be calculated on the basis of all owners of the base game like it used to be (like how it is on PSN), as that is literally accurate (it doesn't matter if you've bought the DLC or not, the way it is on PSN is that the DLC trophies are packaged with the base game, no matter if you own it or not, that's the way it is and we can't change that). With this in mind, DLC rarity categories should be classified differently from the base game trophy categories. So instead of 5% and below being Ultra Rare for a DLC trophy, 1% and below should be Ultra Rare for DLC, and so on (or whatever it should be - 0.75%, 0.50% and below is ultra rare, whatever).

• In the Trophy Log and trophy lists it will just say for example "1.50% Rare (DLC)" for a DLC trophy, if it were a trophy for a base game, it would as usual say "1.50% Ultra Rare" like it does now. This will instantly explain the difference.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they have "Too Many" Ultra Rare trophies with the old system as it would still be hard to get an Ultra Rare DLC trophy due to their shifted requirement.
• This would resolve the issue with people thinking they "don't have enough" ultra rare trophies due to a 100% DLC trophy actually being a hell of an experience and it now being an accurate percent.
• Now the "Average Rarity" percentage at the top of your profile is an accurate number.
• The 5 rarest trophies module on the right side of your profile would now show your 5 rarest base games trophies and 5 rarest DLC trophies in a "separate" section under that (if people wanted that), otherwise they would just be mixed with each other.
• In the end, I think the trophy log would be the only thing that people may have an issue with if they decided to specifically filter "Order (Rarity)" and "Direction (Ascending)", if they did that they would obviously get some DLC trophies ahead of base game trophies (because you're filtering by rarity percent), it might look weird, but it's still accurate as you're filtering by rarity percent. If you filter by Rarity (Rarity Category) above all that, it would show all trophies (DLC and non-DLC) in that category filtered by percent. It might look odd, but it's still all accurate along the lines with what you're filtering.

I previously said months ago when Sly added the average rarity stat to profiles that he "shot himself in the foot" so to speak by doing that, I predicted threads like this and I wasn't wrong. 

 

Basically, return the DLC to rely on base game percents like it used to be but just shift the DLC percent categories (as the categories are what people care about). I really want to know what people think about this. Every other idea is "Yeah, but that messes this up" and so on, I can't think of what this would mess up, lol

I think that would be confusing for many

Edited November 7, 2015 by Doctor Doom

[Satoshi Ookami]

Dunwall city trials - time management as an example

 

Current method - 32.45% of 2256 owners equals 732 which is exactly what is should be.

 

Suggested method. 16.45% of 2256 owners equals 371 which is not right. 

 

So unless i'm doing the math wrong i don't see how the new version would work more accurately than the current.

How "objective" using an example without actual problem...

The main problem with the current DLC rarity are 99.99/100% trophies that do not reflect anything. 

They are the ones that screw everything the most.

 

 

I already said that I definitely support Sly's idea, but if Mango's idea isn't pain to implement, I say, do it, do it right now =D

[fisty123]

Both methods from Sly and BlindMango still feel better then the current system and while I am a fan of the old system I can understand why many members are not happy with that as well. I feel a middle ground would be a better idea and while It might not 100% correct neither is the current method and in some eyes the old method was not correct as well.

[Auto-Tomato]

It's an average of the old method and the actual method. You can't use the % to reverse calculate how many people have the trophy. And you don't need to. Each trophy has the number of achievers in its own page.

The point is that it's an inaccurate value, effectively meaningless, attributing no equality between the rarity value and achievers...and/or players (owners).

How "objective" using an example without actual problem...

The main problem with the current DLC rarity are 99.99/100% trophies that do not reflect anything. 

They are the ones that screw everything the most.

 

 

I already said that I definitely support Sly's idea, but if Mango's idea isn't pain to implement, I say, do it, do it right now =D

Can you, or anyone, show me an 'objective' example, aside 1 trophy DLCs, where the problem is easily apparent.   It's a genuine request because I'd like to see if I'm missing something regarding the issue.

[Doom]

Can you, or anyone, show me an 'objective' example, aside 1 trophy DLCs, where the problem is easily apparent.   It's a genuine request because I'd like to see if I'm missing something regarding the issue.

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/2342-The-Walking-Dead-Season-2

While the game is also sold retail, the trophy list composition has each episode as a DLC. It fakes out the % because compared to games where the trophy list is normal you'd have a lot of people dropping out as the game goes on.

In this case you can only see it by looking at the 'DLC' owners, but the % are basically all the same.

Other valid examples are games released with one or more DLC for free on the disc since to those you should apply the base game owner value. But at the same time the trophy list could be the same for the version with the DLC on disc (goty) and the original version without the DLC.

I was only bringing up DLCs with 1 trophy because it's the most extreme and obnoxious case.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Doctor Doom

[Djeheuty]

The point is that it's an inaccurate value, effectively meaningless, attributing no equality between the rarity value and achievers...and/or players (owners).

Can you, or anyone, show me an 'objective' example, aside 1 trophy DLCs, where the problem is easily apparent.   It's a genuine request because I'd like to see if I'm missing something regarding the issue.

Just to pick 2 random examples the last of us and metal gear rising dlc's have 2 trophies and are 100% common although being the hardest thing in the game, so it's not just a problem with dlc's with 1 trophy, but most of those with few trophies show it

[Satoshi Ookami]

Can you, or anyone, show me an 'objective' example, aside 1 trophy DLCs, where the problem is easily apparent.   It's a genuine request because I'd like to see if I'm missing something regarding the issue.

I will let others give other examples as I can't show it on my own games, but I can give at least one I do have:

DRIVECLUB Ignition and Photo-Finish are free DLCs that worked as update and since afaik PS4 automatically downloads updates, all owners of DRIVECLUB have that DLC, but the "Get one star" is 99.99% because it's the first trophy of the pack.

Even though at least half of the 170k have access to it (PS+ version users do not, so I'm just guessing the real number) instead of the actual 29k trophy owners (I can't say DLC owners, because it's trophy owners number no matter how you look at it )

Edited November 7, 2015 by Satoshi Ookami

[Auto-Tomato]

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/2342-The-Walking-Dead-Season-2

While the game is also sold retail, the trophy list composition has each episode as a DLC. It fakes out the % because compared to games where the trophy list is normal you'd have a lot of people dropping out as the game goes on.

In this case you can only see it by looking at the 'DLC' owners, but the % are basically all the same.

Other valid examples are games released with one or more DLC for free on the disc since to those you should apply the base game owner value. But at the same time the trophy list could be the same for the version with the DLC on disc (goty) and the original version without the DLC.

I was only bringing up DLCs with 1 trophy because it's the most extreme and obnoxious case.

Ok, let me see if I'm following you here, what you're saying is the game has, or should have 48, 628 players, and the subsequent 'dlc' episodes should be calculated using that figure as opposed to the individual episode figures...?

 

A bit unclear on your second point, games with dlc on the disc...if they are incorporated into the base trophy list then yeah, base players numbers are appropriate, where the dlcs are subsets, only when played would give an accurate stat I would think as we still have a difference between owners & players...if I'm understanding your point.

 

The 1 trophy dlc, hey, I absolutely understand the problem, but I do agree it's obnoxious and there's no current way of giving it a proper value as the systems are, which is why I said it should be dropped as an argument, although I fully appreciate the frustration.

 

I just noticed Djeheuty replying to me and I'm about to reply...with what I get frustrated with

[Doom]

Ok, let me see if I'm following you here, what you're saying is the game has, or should have 48, 628 players, and the subsequent 'dlc' episodes should be calculated using that figure as opposed to the individual episode figures...?

The trophy list is the same for people who bought the episodes 1 by 1 and people who bought it retail all on the disc. So for a part of the owners are being calculated wrongly.

A bit unclear on your second point, games with dlc on the disc...if they are incorporated into the base trophy list then yeah, base players numbers are appropriate, where the dlcs are subsets, only when played would give an accurate stat I would think as we still have a difference between owners & players...if I'm understanding your point.

I don't care. They bought the version with the DLCs on board. I don't care if the trophies are still separated from the main list. They have it, they paid for it, they should be accounted for.

The 1 trophy dlc, hey, I absolutely understand the problem, but I do agree it's obnoxious and there's no current way of giving it a proper value as the systems are, which is why I said it should be dropped as an argument, although I fully appreciate the frustration.

Ignoring a problem that can't seemingly be fixed is a bad habit.

[Auto-Tomato]

Just to pick 2 random examples the last of us and metal gear rising dlc's have 2 trophies and are 100% common although being the hardest thing in the game, so it's not just a problem with dlc's with 1 trophy, but most of those with few trophies show it

I don't know about the MGR trophies but I have looked at TLoU grounded mode dlc and I have to be blunt, I think some people are having a laugh at that one.   5902 players and 100% common...all 5902 players have achieved this trophy therefore it's accurate, regardless of how tough it is.   If you want me to compound the point, in my region, EU, the same trophy (1st one) is 99.995 common...over a massive 17, 873 players!!!   17, 871 achievers from 17, 873 players...how in any stretch is that not common?

 

Trophy rarity is only a general idea of how difficult any given trophy is, it's not meant to reflect the difficulty as purposeful, only a stat of how many people have managed to achieve it from the given number of people to play it.   Rarity does not equal difficulty!   If anyone doesn't feel 'rewarded' somehow, by the rarity value, the real reward is the gold trophy (for that particular example), not the stat...

 

It gets worse when people say a value is unfair because a trophy it 'time consuming', please, I beg someone to tell me how to discern a time scale from a rarity value, how does that work?  How is that reflected?   This is the problem I have with the argument, attributing conceptual or subjective value to a simple rarity stat...

 

Hope I wasn't rude, wasn't the intention.  

The trophy list is the same for people who bought the episodes 1 by 1 and people who bought it retail all on the disc. So for a part of the owners are being calculated wrongly.

I don't care. They bought the version with the DLCs on board. I don't care if the trophies are still separated from the main list. They have it, they paid for it, they should be accounted for.

Ignoring a problem that can't seemingly be fixed is a bad habit.

Ok I can see TWD has an issue, but is that a common problem?  It's not something I've noticed before, as far as I can see few games have trophy sets that are treated this way.

 

I'll just have to disagree with the second point, it's the same base owners should be absorbed into the the dlc stats, effectively, and I've been clear I don't think it's appropriate for accuracy.

 

Acknowledging that a problem can't currently be fixed is wiser!  

 

Just had a look at TWD on PS4, it doesn't use that system now, only the proper dlc has a subset.  Same with Tales from the Borderland, treated as a base game entirely...I presume the others are now too, without bothering to actually check.  I do appreciate that there always will be problems with dlcs but I'm still unconvinced that anything other than the current method woud give a better accuracy.

Edited November 7, 2015 by RedMustang72

[Doom]

Ok I can see TWD has an issue, but is that a common problem?  It's not something I've noticed before, as far as I can see few games have trophy sets that are treated this way.

You can't just ignore problems because are exceptions or hard to fix.

And btw it's TWD season 2.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Doctor Doom

[thegirlruka]

Ok I can see TWD has an issue, but is that a common problem?  It's not something I've noticed before, as far as I can see few games have trophy sets that are treated this way.

 

I'll just have to disagree with the second point, it's the same base owners should be absorbed into the the dlc stats, effectively, and I've been clear I don't think it's appropriate for accuracy.

 

Acknowledging that a problem can't currently be fixed is wiser!  

All the DLC for Borderlands 2 and Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel for PS4 is also included with the game. The practice is actually as common as the Grounded mode trophy because I'm only including the games that include it in my count   

 

hey guys!

Did you know that 100% of people own an elephant?!

Its true!

I know this because i counted all the people who i saw own an elephant, and didnt count anyone else, and 100% of them own an elephant! 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Jibril

[madbuk]

You'd make a good number fiddler, I mean, er, accountant Mango!  

 

It's a fair idea, but for one, people already view the PSN system as unfair, and poorly representing values, which is why most prefer the work Sly does here.   I must admit, although I can understand the premise, I have a real problem accepting that rarity values should incorporate people that neither own, or have played the content.   It's a bit like saying every game that makes the IGC should instantly be represented by the millions of PS Plus subscribers, whether they have any interest or have even downloaded said games...   And staying with Plus, taking the more realistic numbers of Plus games that people do actually play, they almost never come with dlc (has there ever been one?), so again, every month, any dlc laden Plus game is going to see previous dlc owners of said game have a drastic change in rarity values...based on vast numbers of people that have never played the dlc...

 

I honestly have no concern with ultra rare or common values, and/or whoever has how many of each, I'm just not convinced that anything other than calculating a value based on player attempts to achievers is accurate, even though I'll admit it's not perfect, it's as accurate as we can be given the data.  

 

It's not an unreasonable idea though, and if it keeps people happy...but I, sincerely, would never see the values as accurate.   Giving a trophy a rarity value based on thousands (usually/often) of core base players that have never encountered the content, and unless they purchase the dlc (at which point they'll be fairly represented by the current method), will never earn said trophy, obviously...I just can't buy into that, to me it's not a true value of who can or can't earn a trophy.  

But the thing is, when you 'buy' a PS+ game, that PS+ game isn't added to your list until you actually download and play it.

DLC, however, is added to your list as soon as you start the base game.

 

This means that ALL base game owners do have the DLC on their list, and thus should be counted towards the rarity.

[Auto-Tomato]

You can't just ignore problems because are exceptions or hard to fix.

And btw it's TWD season 2.

But Doc, I'm not ignoring them, I'm pointing out that attempting to change a system to satisfy the exceptions only serves to skew the value of everything but the exception!   It's not about hard to fix, there just isn't any accurate way to give a 1 trophy dlc a proper value...unless there measures taken to track that specific dlc app being activated.   I completely agree with you that it's both extreme and obnoxious though, but it is the same for everyone at least!  Lol

 

Edit:   Sorry, too many replies and subsequent thoughts, thought it was Season 1, have the TT collection but no Season 2 up as yet, so can't check, but it appears TT have done away with the format...I think.  

 

All the DLC for Borderlands 2 and Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel for PS4 is also included with the game. The practice is actually as common as the Grounded mode trophy because I'm only including the games that include it in my count   

 

 

 I know I have the Handsome collection,.   I hope I wasn't rude, I just can't see that the grounded trophy should be anything other than what it is...

Edited November 7, 2015 by RedMustang72