Trophy Rarity Question

[Doom]

Well whatever. Seems like I'm talking to a rubber wall.

I'd say it just one last time because I've nothing else to do.

We are most surely never going to go back to how it was before. It was changed exactly because people asked for a change to be made.

Now there are people like us bitching about how it is now. We are not gonna go back because it would be stupid and would not solve the problem people had with the previous method.

I, maybe in my naivety, thought that the alternative proposed by Sly could be an interesting compromise and just wanted to bring back the attention to it. I understand that maybe a new topic would have been better, but now it's kinda late for that.

Can we please move on from "it's better how it was before" and "it's better how it is now" and just say if you would be ok with this:

Both ways of calculating it are wrong, maybe a compromise and calculate it based on the average of game owners/people with a trophy in the DLC pack.

Please? Can we discuss this and not "how it was before" and "how it is now"?

[SuffyZorugelion]

It should be just calculated normally. You have the game therefore you have the dlc on your trophy list. Own it or not. I also think it would be great to get another vote on this.

[simula67]

Both ways of calculating it are wrong, maybe a compromise and calculate it based on the average of game owners/people with a trophy in the DLC pack.

 

Why not just have it as a user preference and let each person decide? I get that the community is split between how they want it calculated.

 

So, two options then:

1. The user's preference changes how their profile appears to everyone else
2. The user's preference changes how they view others' profiles

[ONUOsFan]

I thought this was about how many who has played the content/game rather than who owns the main game.

No, when you really get down to it, it's about people who don't buy DLC dictating how trophy rarity should be calculated for people that do. Well, that and some fuzzy math that tries to determine how many people actually own DLC.

Can we discuss this and not "how it was before" and "how it is now"?

To be honest, I don't even understand what he's saying there and how it's different than the current system, but I don't really care. Trying to make up a new way to calculate things won't solve anything. It will still not be accurate and it will still make people mad.

I still maintain that in the absence of a "perfect" solution, the one that is accurate should be used, and that's the old one. Add to that a user view preference like simula67 suggests above, and that's as close to perfect as you're going to get. At that point, the only people who are complaining are those who care about what other people see when they look at the site, and at that point they really need to get a life.

Edited November 4, 2015 by ONUOsFan

[markcavan]

It should be just calculated normally. You have the game therefore you have the dlc on your trophy list. Own it or not. I also think it would be great to get another vote on this.

 

I agree on both counts.  

 

This topic comes up so many times on this forum.  Maybe time for another vote on it.  However, if we did have another vote then in 6-12 months time someone will likely disagree and we'll have yet another topic on this.  Round and round we go.

[ONUOsFan]

I agree on both counts.  

 

This topic comes up so many times on this forum.  Maybe time for another vote on it.  However, if we did have another vote then in 6-12 months time someone will likely disagree and we'll have yet another topic on this.  Round and round we go.

That's why you give people the option to choose how they see it (assuming that's even possible). Everyone gets what they want, right?

[SuffyZorugelion]

I agree on both counts.  

 

This topic comes up so many times on this forum.  Maybe time for another vote on it.  However, if we did have another vote then in 6-12 months time someone will likely disagree and we'll have yet another topic on this.  Round and round we go.

I think what drove the DLC trophies to be showed like this was because people felt their rarest platinums didnt show up because of the DLC trophies were always there, but since we now have the trophy cabinets I think people who want to showcase them can do so.

[Manuelito]

Why not just have it as a user preference and let each person decide? I get that the community is split between how they want it calculated.

So, two options then:

• The user's preference changes how their profile appears to everyone else
• The user's preference changes how they view others' profiles

This is the best option. Everyone get what they want and we are all happy!

[Doom]

You'll get people unhappy because it's not the same for everyone.

[ONUOsFan]

You'll get people unhappy because it's not the same for everyone.

Those people can get over themselves.

To paraphrase Ivan Drago, "I hunt trophies for me. FOR ME!"

[grimydawg___]

I personally don't care, as long as I can see what trophies I have/haven't done. 

Edited November 4, 2015 by grimydawg

[MMDE]

No, when you really get down to it, it's about people who don't buy DLC dictating how trophy rarity should be calculated for people that do. Well, that and some fuzzy math that tries to determine how many people actually own DLC.

 

It has nothing to do with owning, and that goes for games too. It comes down to who has played the content in question. Should everyone who owns a PS3 count towards the % for every game? It is after all their choice not to have bought the game. This is of course silly and not what we're going after. Neither are we going after owners, unless we're talking confirmed owners. We don't count people who we can't confirm to have played the content in question.

 

What the % is for is 100 * (realized potential) / (potential). Where potential is people who has played what they need to earn the trophy, and realized potential is those who has obtained the trophy. If you haven't played the game, you don't count towards potential, even if you own the game. The same shit goes for DLCs.

 

As for your claim about it being people who don't buy DLCs... I'm one of those who make this "fuzz", and I've shown you guys that I would get 27 ultra rare trophies from one game alone if the system was changed back.

 

I vote that the rarity should be DLC trophy achievers compared to all game owners.

 

The reason being is that the DLC lists are part of the game's list on PSN. If some people don't have and don't want the DLC, well that's their prerogative. 

 

I vote that the rarity of main game trophies should be compared to all PS3 owners.

 

The reason being is that the main game trophies are part of PSN's trophy list. If some people don't have and don't want the main game, well, that's their prerogative.

Edited November 4, 2015 by MMDE

[MMDE]

If there's no way to track real DLC owner we should only use the official method used by Sony. That's the better way since they created trophies and they make the rules.

 

I'm pretty sure Sony copied PSNP when it comes to the rarity system. There was no such thing before PS4 AFAIK. They did a massive update around the release of PS4 and that's when they added the rarity stuff. They even copied it down to the same names and rules for the classifications. They went with what PSNP used to do, which was rather faulty, because they were in the same situation.

[simula67]

I vote that the rarity of main game trophies should be compared to all PS3 owners.

 

The reason being is that the main game trophies are part of PSN's trophy list. If some people don't have and don't want the main game, well, that's their prerogative.

 

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

 

 

Sony calculates the "official" rarity of a trophy based on all users who have the game on their profile, even if it's at 0%. The same calculation is used for DLC trophies. If it's good enough for Sony, it's good enough for me.

[MMDE]

http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/30-appeal-to-extremes

 

 

Sony calculates the "official" rarity of a trophy based on all users who have the game on their profile, even if it's at 0%. The same calculation is used for DLC trophies. If it's good enough for Sony, it's good enough for me.

 

Do you really want to start with that?

 

It was an reductio ad absurdum.

 

And you reply with an appeal to authority... What you don't seem to realize is this:

 

 

I'm pretty sure Sony copied PSNP when it comes to the rarity system. There was no such thing before PS4 AFAIK. They did a massive update around the release of PS4 and that's when they added the rarity stuff. They even copied it down to the same names and rules for the classifications. They went with what PSNP used to do, which was rather faulty, because they were in the same situation.

 

EDIT:

I should probably point out that the fallacy is pretty moot, because we're talking about opinions and not making an argument for what is.

Edited November 4, 2015 by MMDE

[Lime]

Some of my rarest trophies are dlc trophies. Who care.

[Sly Ripper]

Stop with the off/topic spam posts.

[thegirlruka]

Why not just have it as a user preference and let each person decide? I get that the community is split between how they want it calculated.

 

So, two options then:

• The user's preference changes how their profile appears to everyone else
• The user's preference changes how they view others' profiles

I agree with this (which is why I suggested in one of the threads about this that was locked months ago )

[Raitandrul]

I know that the current system is flawed but the fault isn't on Sly for making it this way. The only way to know if someone has a DLC pack, outside of PSNP, is by looking at their trophies. This issue would only be solved when SONY decides to make obvious if someone has a DLC or not.

 

Personally, I think this is the best option Sly could make, think about it like a judge making a decision, they can't make the decision without any proof, here is the same. The site can't assume everyone who has the DLC has the DLC until there is some kind of evidence (in this case is 1 earned trophy from the DLC pack).

 

Out of the two possibly ways the most sensible option has been chosen, imo.

[fisty123]

My main reason behind this topic was not how many rare trophies I have per say it was that as a collective my average rarity is a lot higher than what it really is and what it is on other sites. Yes I have played a lot of easy games over the years (went on a Visual Novel binge for a while when doing comps on other sites - costs way to much and is rather boring in the end reading them is rather enjoyable but skipping text for trophies I am over it) so this is going to be high but the DLC classed as 100% common is raising this number as well and other DLC that has a high trophy percent

If changing it causes people to gain more rare trophies it would not last too long many members like rare trophies so others may also try and play them which will at one stage may raise the trophy percent over time.

 

While Sly's idea may not be 100% correct it does meet both options halfway instead of having it like it is now and making many members unhappy or like it was originally which as well all know many members were not happy with that idea as well.

Edited November 5, 2015 by fisty123

[Auto-Tomato]

I'm struggling to understand what exactly it is some people are desiring here?   I mean, I understand the fundamental arguments, players to achievers, owners & non-achievers but I'm having trouble with the why, because some seem to want to attribute conceptual values to the problem, and while those values can be substantiated by a general community consensus, i.e. we agree this is an easy/hard trophy, it can never be reflected mathematically, only implied by the rarity value, and even then, that is open to variables that are, or can be, misleading.

 

I don't see there'll ever be an accurate representation unless there's a dedicated effort, and I vaguely remember some complaining to Sony about this too, to separate base and dlc trophy lists, but not only is that a restructuring process, a redesigning of trophy cards for this site, and various other work, but it still won't be entirely accurate because as a few have pointed out, purchasing content and playing it are entirely different things.   I have numerous games on my hdd I've not touched as yet, no trophy record, but should I be included in rarity value due to my purchase record?  My Resogun Plat once was an S rank and 100% completion, now due to dlc I have no intention of buying it's an A rank and 63% completion...do I have a gripe?   PS Plus games adding thousands of gamers that might only click on a game, earn a quick trophy then think not for me...subsequently interfering with rarity values all over the place...

 

I don't mean to be disparaging to anyone, genuinely, but I can't shake this feeling:

 

I play dlc and get my 'difficult' trophy and don't feel rewarded or that I'm accurately represented with the 100% common trophy I received...ok, I can understand that, but what if it's an easy trophy?   Starts the dlc...press x to jump, ping, well done, you can jump, 0.5% UR trophy because all the base gamers tracked, that haven't bought the dlc, are absorbed into the calculations...woohoo.  Er, shouldn't you be complaining about this?  I mean let's be honest, you are in no way deserving of an UR for pressing x, right?  I know but I like this one better, makes my profile look nicer, hey, I'm happy, why complain right?  -.-

 

Apologies if anyone took that the wrong way.

 

My point is, what do people want, or expect trophy values to represent?   A purity based on owners/players/achievers?  Conceptual values of difficulty?  Or a personal engagement with your own stats?!   I would hope the first, the second is arbitrary and the third...well, I think you need some fresh air, take a walk maybe, some deep breaths, bit of self-reflection, read some Spinoza...something like that!   Is it really such an issue?   There's only so many ways to handle the problem, all of which are fallible.   Handling the dlc in the same manner as the base game seems fair, or about as fair as it could be, but honestly if it was changed again...I really wouldn't be concerned, hey I might even buy some dlc to chase down those URs...no, no I wouldn't!  

 

Mustang manoeuvred his tired old frame to it's feet and meandered off into the distance...mumbling something about a storm coming, there's always a storm coming, a man, there's a man, a lighthouse...what the fek are you talking about?!   I don't know, but it makes about as much sense as this effing thread, who cares?!!!!!!!!!    You know, this post has a rarity value of...injustice.  Oh with the drama...  

[Floorkiller74]

DLC trophies are part of the game, period. If you own the game, you should be held accountable for the DLC trophies. If you are cheap, that's your issue...but the complainers win this game I guess.  

 

My biggest personal complaint is that when I look at my trophy advisor, I have to remove DLC trophies (Which I don't want to do) because I get pages of tough 100% trophies.

 

IMO, this is one of the 2 great injustices on this site (No accountability for people who ruin boosting sessions is the other)

 

That said, it's been made clear that it will always stay the way it is...no matter what. It's a shame, but it is what it is I guess.

[closertim]

Since both ways are wrong,  there should be no trophy rarity stat for dlc trophies. 

[Gibbo_0113]

The main problem is mostly just the dlc with a single trophy and since most of the time dlc has a bunch of trophies the way it is now is good. Do people really want a lot of meaningless ultra rare trophies anyway?

[FawltyPowers]

Unless Sony was to put a flag on a game to indicate whether a DLC has been installed all methods are flawed.

 

To use main game owners for DLC’s ends up with trophy rarity leaning closer towards Ultra Rare.

 

To use the DLC owners for DLC’s ends up with trophy rarity leaning closer towards Uncommon.

 

The third method mentioned by Sly and others could be quite interesting and a nice balance. After all the rarity of a trophy is only meant to serve as a guide. If you see a main game with an Ultra Rare platinum you automatically know that it will be a challenge to complete in one way or another (normally J). The same needs to apply to DLC’s and the third option could be a good way.

 

I’m not sure how it could be weighted, another idea could be that people who have earned a trophy for that game give the dlc a rating between 1 and 10 (1 easy and 10 most challenging) and that score can be the influencing factor on the rarity across the DLC being recalculated. Of course this rating is subjective and some people will just vote a 1 or a 10 just because they can, but maybe taking the mode of the ratings could be used as the majority of people will answer honestly. Just a thought.